From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 1 07:09:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:09:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34F9782D.C756C803@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:01:02 -0700 From: John Butler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Board tester board... References: <34F7D8E4.100B5FB3@istar.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Butler > Clay Cowgill wrote: > > > > So a while back I brought up the idea to make a "universal" test board > > for working on game PCB's. > > > Instead of building an onboard amp the other solution would be to leave an 1/8" stereo jack on the board. Then we could use a cheap set of computer speakers. This may not be the most integrated solution in the world, but it keeps the component count down and help to prevent feature creep. I use a set of Altec Lansing computer speakers in a similar arrangement for my Gauntlet II that I don't have the audio board for. Let's just say the subwoofer really rocks. John Butler Mesa, AZ Collector of Classic Arcade Games and Pinball Machines From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 1 07:42:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:42:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 08:40:24 -0700 (MST) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@losparc To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: LV2000s shipped!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen Well all LV2000 orders have shipped, so you all should be getting them this week! Get this though! After Jeff and I shipped them all off yesterday, I was looking at the Installation docs (big mistake) and found a "small error". So, on Page 5 of the installation docs there is instruction of which holes to solder the "wires" into. It should say that the black wire goes into the top hole where R101 came out of (the left hole marked with a square), and the red wire goes into the top hole where R100 came out of (the right hole marked with a square). I was somehow dyslexic and ended up swapping the words "left" and "right". :-( So basically the paragraph is correct if you just swap the words "left" and "right". This will make more sense when you get the printed docs. Jeff will update the online docs, which are in color BTW. (www.diac.com/~jeffh/lv2000) -Anders. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 1 14:33:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:33:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC6A@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Cc: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: On Topic:: ) Help w/encoder Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:32:15 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" Hey there Clay, > There was also a Tempest control panel (w/out overlay) that was setup > for a trackball. Haven't a clue what that was for. Maybe a Quantum > conversion kit for Tempest? > Any chance you still have this? And might be willing to let go of it? I am trying to build a Quantum in a Tempest cab and it would make it MUCHO easier :) Oh and I just got my order sent off for the Multi game sets. The wife had slapped me pretty hard when I showed up with a stack of things I had ordered from people and I had to wait for the cash flow situation to improve before I could start sending out checks. David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 1 14:44:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:43:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC6B@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Cc: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: On Topic:: ) Help w/encoder Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:42:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" Wow am I stupid or what :) This was supposed to just be to Clay, but if there was anyone else on this list that I owed $ to "The check is in the mail" and that includes my LV2000 order. David Going off to lick my wounds now. > ---------- > From: David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech) > Reply To: vectorlist@spies.com > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 1998 2:32 PM > To: 'vectorlist@spies.com' > Cc: Clay Cowgill; David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech) > Subject: RE: On Topic:: ) Help w/encoder > > Hey there Clay, > > > > There was also a Tempest control panel (w/out overlay) that was setup > > for a trackball. Haven't a clue what that was for. Maybe a Quantum > > conversion kit for Tempest? > > > Any chance you still have this? And might be willing to let go of it? I > am > trying to build a Quantum in a Tempest cab and it would make it MUCHO > easier > :) > > Oh and I just got my order sent off for the Multi game sets. The wife had > slapped me pretty hard when I showed up with a stack of things I had > ordered > from people and I had to wait for the cash flow situation to improve > before > I could start sending out checks. > > David > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 11:34:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:33:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Sega vector viewer... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:32:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hi everyone. I decided to finally try playing around with Visual Basic (*ack*) on the PC over the weekend. I ended up porting my "vsnoop" program (lets you look at Sega vector game ROM images and find the graphics). It actually turned out pretty cool-- it now draws in full color, and searching and scaling occurs in realtime from a couple scroll bars. There's a little built-in file browser too. If any of you want it, let me know and I'll put it on my webpage or something. (I used the "Winseek" demo from Visual Basic as a boiler-plate, so it's still named "Winseek" for some !@#$!@ reason I can't figure out. And how you make VB print anything in Hex is still beyond me... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 12:03:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:02:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34FB1143.121B@erinet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:06:27 -0500 From: James Marous Organization: James Marous, Biomedical Engineer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Hello All Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: James Marous Well, I finally got around to joining the vector mailing list, obviously....Just thought I would announce myself. I currenty have only a couple vector projects underway. I have a spare WG 61xx that I am in the process of doing the "final solution" on. I have another that I have already converted and it works great. It's hard to beleive you can run the thing without the low voltage supply, but it actually works great, I am living proof. I also have 3 Battlezone minis I am in the process of fixing up. I actually have 2 of them working and all I need to finish are a couple joysticks. I have to say that I actually like the mini BZ much more than the upright. I picked the 3 up for $100, all were complete with the exception of the joysticks. I'm heading off to Washtington D.C. this week for business, and am going to try to hit Videotopia. Can't wait to see the collection. James -- My Homepage! Http://www.erinet.com/jamesm/ mailto:jamesm@erinet.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 12:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:14:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Wade Tsai Message-Id: <199803022009.OAA21457@noh80lm.no.shell.com> Subject: Re: Sega vector viewer... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:09:52 CST In-Reply-To: ; from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 2, 98 11:32 am X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Wade Tsai > > If any of you want it, let me know and I'll put it on my webpage or > something. (I used the "Winseek" demo from Visual Basic as a > boiler-plate, so it's still named "Winseek" for some !@#$!@ reason I > can't figure out. If you're using VB 5.0, on the "Project" dialog, select the project name. Next on the "Properties" dialog, click on the "Name" field to alter the project name. Or you can just fire up vi and edit the file .vbp instead :-) > And how you make VB print anything in Hex is still > beyond me... ;-) debug.Print Hex() or if you want to get fancy: Msgbox Hex() :-) -- Wade. +---------------------------------------------+ | ep60wtu@shell.com | | Shell Oil Company, 3-D CAD, New Orleans, LA | +---------------------------------------------+ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 12:43:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:42:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980302204652.027ff67c@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:46:52 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: Gravitar/Black Widow Schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" Hi Jess, Thanks for the HV Probe info. I ordered one and it works great! -Chris >MCM Electronics - Tenma High Voltage Probe >The Tenma probe adapt most 10MOhm multimeters into a high voltage meter. >Specs - Max Working Voltage .. 40KVDC/peak AC >Division Ratio - 1000:1 >90 day warranty > >MCM part # 72-3040 Price: $39.95 >1-800-543-4330 >-- >Jess M. Askey *** Coming Soon - The Game Archive *** >Game Spot/Audio Analyst * Pinball, Video, Parts, Collecting * >509 S. 2nd Street Unit B * http://www.gamearchive.com * >Laramie WY 82070 ************************************** > > -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 12:43:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:43:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980302204751.0280b718@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:47:51 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: Gravitar/Black Widow Schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" Oops! I didn't mean to reply to the list. Sorry. -Chris -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 13:05:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:05:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Hello All Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:05:44 GMT Message-ID: <34fc1de7.261986175@tommy.doctord.com> References: <34FB1143.121B@erinet.com> In-Reply-To: <34FB1143.121B@erinet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:06:27 -0500, James Marous = wrote: >Well, I finally got around to joining the vector mailing list, >obviously....Just thought I would announce myself. =20 > >I currenty have only a couple vector projects underway. I have a spare >WG 61xx that I am in the process of doing the "final solution" on. I >have another that I have already converted and it works great. It's >hard to beleive you can run the thing without the low voltage supply, >but it actually works great, I am living proof. Careful doing this, your High voltage supply will now be overvoltaged and= will dissipate considerably more heat (which is why they say replacing a = couple of the pre-driver transistors with power devices is a must). But there is = one thing everyone seems to overlook. There is a resistor on the yoke PCB = that needs to be recalculated for the higher voltage, if I recall it drives a = zener diode. With the higher voltage the zener diode will also dissipate more = heat. The vectors are also not a stable without low voltage regulation, all in = all I'd recommend the LV2000 (if they're still available). > >I also have 3 Battlezone minis I am in the process of fixing up. I >actually have 2 of them working and all I need to finish are a couple >joysticks. I have to say that I actually like the mini BZ much more >than the upright. I picked the 3 up for $100, all were complete with >the exception of the joysticks. Great deal, especially for the mini! > >I'm heading off to Washtington D.C. this week for business, and am going >to try to hit Videotopia. Can't wait to see the collection. =20 > > James <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 13:25:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:25:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Board tester board... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:23:45 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > I use a set of Altec Lansing computer speakers in a similar > arrangement for my > Gauntlet II that I don't have the audio board for. Let's just say the > subwoofer really rocks. > Do you get all sorts of god-awful processor noise on the audio outputs of your Gauntlet board? I sure do. I put "good" speakers in the cabinet and all the sudden I can hear tons (I weighed it) of high-frequency cross-talk. Annoying as hell. I installed an EQ to notch out the more offensive frequencies. Uhh, oh. Off charter again... Uhhhhh, oh, and I'm going to put the same kind of amp in my "worlds most beat to death Asteroids machine" to try to get rid of a weird 60hz hum. (It's odd-- hums like mad *if* the control panel harness is plugged in. Even "beats" in sequence with the blinking LEDs on the control panel...) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 13:31:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:31:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:30:39 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Board tester board... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Uhh, oh. Off charter again... Uhhhhh, oh, and I'm going to put the > same kind of amp in my "worlds most beat to death Asteroids machine" to > try to get rid of a weird 60hz hum. (It's odd-- hums like mad *if* the > control panel harness is plugged in. Even "beats" in sequence with the > blinking LEDs on the control panel...) > Try filtering the 10.3V supply some more, first....this sounds like (no pun intended) noise on the 10.3V supply, which is unregulated, and goes to both tthe CP and the audio amp. Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 14:10:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:12:55 -0700 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Hello All Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) We still have LV2000's available -jeff >On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:06:27 -0500, James Marous wrote: > >>Well, I finally got around to joining the vector mailing list, >>obviously....Just thought I would announce myself. >> >>I currenty have only a couple vector projects underway. I have a spare >>WG 61xx that I am in the process of doing the "final solution" on. I >>have another that I have already converted and it works great. It's >>hard to beleive you can run the thing without the low voltage supply, >>but it actually works great, I am living proof. > >Careful doing this, your High voltage supply will now be overvoltaged and will >dissipate considerably more heat (which is why they say replacing a couple of >the pre-driver transistors with power devices is a must). But there is one >thing everyone seems to overlook. There is a resistor on the yoke PCB that >needs to be recalculated for the higher voltage, if I recall it drives a zener >diode. With the higher voltage the zener diode will also dissipate more heat. > >The vectors are also not a stable without low voltage regulation, all in >all I'd >recommend the LV2000 (if they're still available). > >> >>I also have 3 Battlezone minis I am in the process of fixing up. I >>actually have 2 of them working and all I need to finish are a couple >>joysticks. I have to say that I actually like the mini BZ much more >>than the upright. I picked the 3 up for $100, all were complete with >>the exception of the joysticks. > >Great deal, especially for the mini! >> >>I'm heading off to Washtington D.C. this week for business, and am going >>to try to hit Videotopia. Can't wait to see the collection. >> >> James > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade Classic Video Arcade Games www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 14:18:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:18:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: sega vector viewer... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:17:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill For those of you that asked for it... http://www.e-volve.net/~clay/vsnoop_w.html Have fun with it. There are a couple sample binary files in the zip archive with the setupu program. Filesize is limited to 32768 bytes right now 'cause that's the range of a stock Visual Basic scoll bar. (I use the scroll bar to set the viewer-address on a 1:1 basis. Larger files will load safely, but only the first 32K is visible. Maybe I'll add a "bank" button...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 14:21:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:21:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Hum in asteroids... Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:20:43 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Try filtering the 10.3V supply some more, first....this sounds > like (no pun intended) noise on the 10.3V supply, which is > unregulated, > and goes to both tthe CP and the audio amp. > Does 10.3Vdc (unreg) get tapped off the big filter cap on the power-supply? If so, I did replace that. Didn't help in any noticeable fashion. I haven't bothered to really look for the problem, but it sounds just like a ground loop. Disconnecting the control seems to have broken the loop (and fixed the hum). Maybe I'll look at it more this week. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 18:09:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:09:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:08:58 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: cineex rev2 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) the second rev of the boards came back, and seem to be working I'll build up the cables and try it on a Cine CPU board, and Joe tomorrow From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 2 18:25:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:25:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC72@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: vectorlist, "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Cc: aek Subject: RE: cineex rev2 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:24:39 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" > the second rev of the boards came back, and seem to be working > I'll build up the cables and try it on a Cine CPU board, and > Joe tomorrow > Wow, I hope you use padded test clips. :) Sorry, David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 06:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:54:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <34FC19A1.2141@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:54:25 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Board tester board... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Clay Cowgill wrote: > > > Uhh, oh. Off charter again... Uhhhhh, oh, and I'm going to put the > > same kind of amp in my "worlds most beat to death Asteroids machine" to > > try to get rid of a weird 60hz hum. (It's odd-- hums like mad *if* the > > control panel harness is plugged in. Even "beats" in sequence with the > > blinking LEDs on the control panel...) > > > > Try filtering the 10.3V supply some more, first....this sounds > like (no pun intended) noise on the 10.3V supply, which is unregulated, > and goes to both tthe CP and the audio amp. > > Joe I've noticed that different Asteroids boardsets in the same cabinet produce these same beats in sequence with the blinking LEDs on the control panel. I.E, depending on the boardset I've tested, it has either exhibited this phenomenon or not. Strange, no? (Strange yes!) Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 07:32:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:32:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:30:43 -0500 (EST) From: Mitchell Rohde To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Joel Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Board tester board... In-Reply-To: <34FC19A1.2141@an.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mitchell Rohde > > Try filtering the 10.3V supply some more, first....this sounds > > like (no pun intended) noise on the 10.3V supply, which is unregulated, > > and goes to both tthe CP and the audio amp. > > > > Joe > > I've noticed that different Asteroids boardsets in the same cabinet > produce these same beats in sequence with the blinking LEDs on the > control panel. I.E, depending on the boardset I've tested, it has > either exhibited this phenomenon or not. Strange, no? (Strange yes!) > > Joel- > Er... not really that strange. The pulsing is undoubtedly the same because they are driven from the same power supply with not enough filtering... if you can see the lights all dim and get bright in phase with each other, I'd say the problem is pretty bad... :) put some caps on that circuit! Mitch From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 08:26:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:26:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <34FC2F18.746E@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:26:00 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Board tester board... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Mitchell Rohde wrote: > > > > Try filtering the 10.3V supply some more, first....this sounds > > > like (no pun intended) noise on the 10.3V supply, which is unregulated, > > > and goes to both tthe CP and the audio amp. > > > > > > Joe > > > > I've noticed that different Asteroids boardsets in the same cabinet > > produce these same beats in sequence with the blinking LEDs on the > > control panel. I.E, depending on the boardset I've tested, it has > > either exhibited this phenomenon or not. Strange, no? (Strange yes!) > > > > Joel- > > > Er... not really that strange. The pulsing is undoubtedly the same > because they are driven from the same power supply with not enough > filtering... if you can see the lights all dim and get bright in phase > with each other, I'd say the problem is pretty bad... :) put some caps on > that circuit! > > Mitch I think you misread what I wrote. I said that depending on the boardset that I've tested, I either have or have not had this beating phenomenon. That indicates that whereas the power supply may share a large burden of responsibility for the problem, it's not the only culprit since the PCB was the only variable in the test. My experience then, is that the beating is very much a potential PCB issue as it is a power supply issue. I'm not yet convinced it's a power supply problem. I've used my scope to check all the outputs on the power supply, and they are very clean DC. Fortunately for me, the set I have in there right now, does not have this problem, so I'm not all that driven to fix anything at the moment. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 08:41:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:41:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: LV2000 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hi all (and Anders and Jeff in particular)-- Got my LV2000 boards yesterday. I'm quite impressed with the board and docs! Good work guys! One question though... The docs didn't come with a parts list and I can't quite make out a couple things on the PCB. Should the bill of materials be: Desc Qty 6 1N4002 2 4.3K resistors (1/8th watt or 1/4th?) 2 47K resistors 2 240 resistors 2 .47uF cap (these looked like dipped tants in the pictures?) 4 1uF cap (also looked like dipped tants?) 1 LM 337T 1 LM 317T 2 small LEDs The only problem area is the caps. The silk screen on my boards is pretty unreadable around those-- I can't make out the polarization marking on the PCB. Any chance you can post a GIF of the silk-screen? Thanks! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 09:50:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:50:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980303101724.00a19970@btc.btc.adaptec.com> X-Sender: andersk@btc.btc.adaptec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:17:24 -0700 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Anders Knudsen Subject: Re: LV2000 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen At 08:40 AM 3/3/98 -0800, Clay wrote: >Hi all (and Anders and Jeff in particular)-- > >Got my LV2000 boards yesterday. I'm quite impressed with the board and >docs! Good work guys! > >One question though... The docs didn't come with a parts list and I >can't quite make out a couple things on the PCB. Should the bill of >materials be: > >Desc Qty >6 1N4002 >2 4.3K resistors (1/8th watt or 1/4th?) >2 47K resistors >2 240 resistors >2 .47uF cap (these looked like dipped tants in the >pictures?) >4 1uF cap (also looked like dipped tants?) >1 LM 337T >1 LM 317T >2 small LEDs > >The only problem area is the caps. The silk screen on my boards is >pretty unreadable around those-- I can't make out the polarization >marking on the PCB. Any chance you can post a GIF of the silk-screen? Yea, it sucks that the silk screen got hosed around those areas. I guess I didn't pay attention to the pad clearances. Alright, Clay, why don't you "read" the Assembly docs? ;-) There *is* a parts list in the assembly docs on page 3. The caps are dipped tants. Oh, I'll get jeff to put a parts list that has Mouser numbers up on the web page so people that need/want to order more parts can get them easily. Otherwise you can still get parts from Jeff. On page 3 of the assembly docs, next to the parts list is a picture of the silk screen. Now I know what you're saying, "I can't read that either." If you go to http://www.diac.com/~jeffh/lv2000/lv2000as.pdf and then scroll to page 3, and then zoom in to the silk screen picture, you should see it pretty clearly. Other wise, the caps that are around the LM337 all have the positive leads facing towards the regulator, when placed the cap labels should face out. The caps that are around the LM317 all have the positive leads facing away from the regulator, when placed the cap labels should face out. If you read page 4 of the assembly docs, the description there should match what I just said. Here is a crude ASCII graphic (view with courier font). - is the cap negative lead, + is the cap positive lead. Hold the PCB so you can read the word LV2000, the negative regulator on the left, the positive regulator on the right. (.47u) - + (.47u) + - (1u) - o o o - (10u) (1u) + o o o + (10u) + | | | + - | | | - ----- ----- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |_____| |_____| LM337 LM317 -Anders. ----------------------------------------- | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center | anders_knudsen@btc.adaptec.com | http://www.adaptec.com ========================================= From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 10:18:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: LV2000 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:17:34 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Alright, Clay, why don't you "read" the Assembly docs? ;-) > There *is* a parts list in the assembly docs on page 3. > Uhhhhhh... No. The only thing I got tells me how to install a complete kit onto a deflection board... > If you go to http://www.diac.com/~jeffh/lv2000/lv2000as.pdf and then > scroll to > page 3, and then zoom in to the silk screen picture, you should see it > pretty clearly. > Ah, that's much better! I take it there was supposed to be one of these in my package? (Or there was and I lost it before seeing it... ;-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 11:44:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:42:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" I'm calling this "Vector Related" since I recall a number of people wishing that had scopes recently. I just received the March Tech America sales flyer. (Tech America seems to be a relatively new mail-order arm of Tandy/Radio Shack. They have everything from parts, to test equipment, to DJ and professional audio//video equipment, security, X10, etc). www.techamerica.com Anyway, they are advertising a Protek P-3502C 20MHz Dual-Trace scope for $249.00, regularly $399.00 . It looks like it could be a reasonable unit for vector game repair, and the price seems right. I wanted to let anyone else who might be shopping for a scope know, and solicit opinions from those who may be more experienced then I who might say it's a piece of junk ( Clay ? :-) I'll reproduce the catalog's descriptive paragraph below: * Built-in component tester displays component function and interaction [What the hell does this mean ??? cxc. ] * Features TV video synchronization filter This full-featured high-quality scope includes wide bandwidth and high sensitivity with low power consumption. It includes and X-Y mode and a Z axis for intensity modulation. Additional features include a TV video sync and high-frequency rejection filter, a front-panel elctrical trace rotator, a regulated power supply circuit and a component tester. The verical amplifiers provide a sensitiviy of 5mV/Div, and the frequency characteristic response with the smooth roll-off exceeds 20Mhz. The highest trigggering sweep speed is 0.2msec/Div. Includes 2 probes (X10, X1) 90 day limited warranty. ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 12:23:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:23:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:22:10 -0500 (EST) From: Mitchell Rohde To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" cc: "Christopher X. Candreva" Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mitchell Rohde > sweep speed is 0.2msec/Div. Includes 2 probes (X10, X1) 90 day limited > warranty. I would be leary of such an item. Two reasons stand out: 1) It has lots of features. It is better, IMHO, to have a solid scope that supports basic functions very well than a whole bunch of cheezy extras that all sort-of kind-of half work. Look at meters. You can get a digital meter for $30 that has all the features of a $200 Fluke... but it is unlikely that the performance and longevity will compare. Some things I wouldn't say this for, but real, good tools are worth every penny. 2) A 90 day limited warranty? Sounds pretty weak. If it were a 1 year total warranty I would not suspect... but 90 days? What is this, let's make a deal? Just my $0.02. Mitch From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 13:16:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:15:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:14:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Anyway, they are advertising a Protek P-3502C 20MHz Dual-Trace scope > for > $249.00, regularly $399.00 . It looks like it could be a reasonable > unit > for vector game repair, and the price seems right. [...] > * Built-in component tester displays component function and > interaction > [What the hell does this mean ??? cxc. ] > Hey! I bet it's one of those Huntron-tracker style component testers! That's pretty cool. (Although after using mine last night on an Asteroids board I'm a little skeptical about it's value as an in-circuit tester-- unless you had an extra-snazzy one that has a memory comparison for known-good nodes.) > * Features TV video synchronization filter > Pretty standard stuff otherwise. Good price at $250 though. The buyer for my 40MHz Tenma fell through-- so if any of you want a 40MHz Tenma with on-screen cursors (V and T) make me an offer in the $450 range and it's all yours... :-) (It's about 2 years old. Maybe 1.5-- I don't recall...) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 13:45:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:45:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:45:44 GMT Message-ID: <34fd7135.9195536@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:22:10 -0500 (EST), Mitchell Rohde = wrote: > >> sweep speed is 0.2msec/Div. Includes 2 probes (X10, X1) 90 day limited >> warranty. > > I would be leary of such an item. Two reasons stand out: > > 1) It has lots of features. It is better, IMHO, to have a solid scope >that supports basic functions very well than a whole bunch of cheezy >extras that all sort-of kind-of half work. Look at meters. You can get= a >digital meter for $30 that has all the features of a $200 Fluke... but = it >is unlikely that the performance and longevity will compare. > > Some things I wouldn't say this for, but real, good tools are worth = every penny. > > 2) A 90 day limited warranty? Sounds pretty weak. If it were a 1 year >total warranty I would not suspect... but 90 days? What is this, let's >make a deal? True on both cases, but you also have to consider that $30 digital meters= of today are more accurate than $3000 tube based Tektronic meters of the = 60's. Technology has come along way with "voltmeters on a chip" making for some= very cheap equipment than works relatively well. The differences between = Fluke and Protek meters today are more a difference in housing construction, and calibration than hardware design. The Fluke is going to be better = calibrated, and will handle a fall from a bench better. But if the Protek says you = have 2.5v on a 5v power supply, you might really have 2.495 volts, but either = way it ain't 5v. The calibration of the Protek is not going to match that of a Fluke. And= 20mhz limits it's usefulness in many other fields, but is plenty for Arcade = repair (and most audio apps for that matter). But hell $250? Dual trace with = X/Y/Z modes? Not bad. I've used Protek scopes in the past, they don't explode= or anything when you turn them on -- and the one I was using was well over = 90days old. You won't go wrong buying a Tektronics or Fluke scope, if you can afford = it. But to fix an old X/Y Arcade game you don't need a 250mhz Tektronics = scope. You just need to see a low frequency waveform being displayed. If the = waveform's not right it won't matter if the voltage of the waveform displayed is off= by 0.5% As far as extra features, those are freebies because of newer technology. Having "features" is not a bad thing. My TV has Picture in Picture, all adjustments (Contrast, Volume, etc) can be made from across the room. It= can wake me in the morning, turn itself off at night, and automatically = search the spectrum for valid channels, allowing me to lock out QVC. It cost about = the same as my Dad paid for a living room TV that we had to get up and twist = a mechanical knob to "kerchunk" between channels. Those options are most likely built into the "Scope on a Chip" that the = IC designers threw in to sell more "Scope on a Chip" ICs. What do I own? A 250mhz Tektronics scope I paid $600 for used. And a 4 = 1/2 =46luke meter that I got instead of payment from a company going = bankrupt. -- Like I said, you won't go wrong with Tektronics and a Fluke! ;^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 14:46:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:45:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Jeff Kinder Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:46:34 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, I'm about to do a large deal with Jeff Kinder (3d@garden.net). Has anyone had any difficult deals with him? Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I did check DejaNews and noticed previous deals where Jeff is buying everything that I'm about to buy from Jeff (at his cost might I add). But while Jeff has been on the short end of the stick regarding many of these deals, I've not seen any evidence of Jeff himself executing poor deals. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 15:34:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:33:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34FC93AF.4E1830C8@tir.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:35:12 -0500 From: Scott Goings X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vectorlist@spies.com" Subject: Y axis adjustment on Tempest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Scott Goings I posted the following on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting Sunday morning. As of Tuesday night yet have not received any input. So, I am posting this to the vector list to see if any of the experts have any ideas on how to solve this problem. (posts edited from original query to usenet) As the title states I am having problems with the Y adjustment on my tempest. I can not get the Y axis small enough to fit the screen. Sequence of events: 1. Purchased machine one month ago with unstable video (Sine wave running down the vectors) 2. Replaced all the electrolytic capacitors on the H.V. board. (Sine wave problem resolved) 3. Went through the self test and made all adjustments ("Y Size" trim pot was set to the smallest size to get proper screen fit, did not change this as it was already set at the limit before I went through the adjustment procedure) 4. Game played fine for several weeks with no problems. Then during a game last night the Y size grew outside the limits of the CRT. Now I don't have any adjustment left to bring it down the right size. (I can make Y larger and the X size works fine) 5. I have checked the trim pot and the resistor in series with it and both check out OK. Any ideas on what I should check now? Additional information I pulled out the low voltage board this evening and found what I believe to be a nonstandard modification to the circuit (don't really know since this is the first machine I have owned). There is a daughter card which consists of (2) 2N3904's, (4) 2N3906's and various diodes, resistors and capacitors. This PCB is attached to the LV board with standoffs at the following locations: R600, R700 (both sides), R606 and R700 (one side) (these components had been removed from the LV board). In addition there are standoffs in holes which are not labeled. This daughter P.C.B. looks rather crude in comparison to the L.V. board but does carry ATARI makings as follows: ATARI c 81 MADE IN USA 038089-01 JPR II-2 I have a LV2000 but do not want to put it on until I get this problem figured out. Thanks in advance, Scott Goings From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 15:38:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:38:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:38:36 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Y axis adjustment on Tempest Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I pulled out the low voltage board this evening and found what I believe to be a nonstandard modification to the circuit" This was a input voltage limiting circuit that was added as a field modification to the monitors. I beleive you will find an ascii version of the circuit in Greg W's W-G repair FAQ. I assume that you've checked that the exisiting LV regulator circuit is still working, and the output isn't high? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 15:45:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:44:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:44:51 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: 19K6400 input circuit board Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) the last posted reminded me.. wasn't someone going to scan in the input protection circuit board to go along with the 6400 schematic that's up on spies? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 16:00:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: 19K6400 input circuit board Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 00:01:04 GMT Message-ID: <3503997b.19506751@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:44:51 -0800 (PST), aek (Al Kossow) wrote: > >the last posted reminded me.. wasn't someone going to scan >in the input protection circuit board to go along with the >6400 schematic that's up on spies? Is it any different than the protection they added to the later 324 = boards? (I have one of these boards, I suppose I could look. :^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 20:54:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:54:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mitchell Rohde To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Zonn Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America In-Reply-To: <34fd7135.9195536@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mitchell Rohde I agree with your thoughts that the $30 meter of today is better than the $7000 scope of 1961... but then again, I bet that tube scope will survive long after that $30 model has met the trash.. .:) hehehehe I'm a sucker for an old tube model... > > As far as extra features, those are freebies because of newer technology. > Having "features" is not a bad thing. My TV has Picture in Picture, all I totally agree with you that everything is smaller, cheaper faster, better. But test equipment is not quite like your TV. TVs are truly consumer electronics -- they manufacture them by them millions, market differentiation is difficult as they all have everything now (size is about the only factor), and so the price drops but the quality stays high. Test equipment, on the other hand, has a very limited market (hey, grandma doesn't own a scope) and therefor the prices stay high. It's a specialty product. Tektronix doesn't reduce it's scopes to $150 even if they are last year's model... why? because the market demand is not even a sixteenth as elastic as the demand for televisions. Hey, I'm working on a paper about medical instrumentation and why smaller, cheaper, faster better is the way... so you are preaching to the choir. But I am explaining why I am leary of the $250 scope that has mucho features... Then again, for $250 it doesn't hurt that much to try! :) Mitch > > What do I own? A 250mhz Tektronics scope I paid $600 for used. And a 4 1/2 > Fluke meter that I got instead of payment from a company going bankrupt. -- Like > I said, you won't go wrong with Tektronics and a Fluke! ;^) > > -Zonn > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 21:02:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:02:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:01:55 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Y axis adjustment on Tempest Cc: Scott Goings Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) >As the title states I am having problems with the Y adjustment on my >tempest. I can not get the Y axis small enough to fit the screen. My guess is that you are also experiencing a problem with the X-axis but that you just happen to have enough pot adjustment to counteract it. I'd bet your ZD902 is bad on your HV unit and you have a low HV condition causing blooming. It's cheap enough to replace so I'd start there. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 3 21:34:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:34:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC79@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: BZ Blooming Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:33:24 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" I need a cross on the diode in the HV line on a BZ. I know I have seen it before but can't remember now where to get them. Thanks, David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 01:19:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:18:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980304011926.00545430@u1.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@u1.netgate.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 01:19:26 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Losing net access temporarily Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: The Grigsbeast I'll be off the list for a while. I can still receive mail but won't be able to read it. Until then... // grigs From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 04:50:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:50:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: djeffery@multipath.com (Doug Jefferys) Message-Id: <199803041247.HAA04741@mpsrv3.multipath.com> Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Sale at Tech America To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:47:28 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mitchell Rohde" at Mar 3, 98 11:53:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: djeffery@multipath.com (Doug Jefferys) Once upon a time, Mitchell Rohde wrote: > > I agree with your thoughts that the $30 meter of today is better than the > $7000 scope of 1961... but then again, I bet that tube scope will survive > long after that $30 model has met the trash.. .:) hehehehe I'm a sucker > for an old tube model... Reminds me - I've got an ancient tube scope that's on the fritz. We're talking ancient here, as in, "discrete components wired up by their component leads", with very little in the way of what we'd recognize as PC boards. It worked once-upon-a-time, but no longer accepts input; the only trace it'll display is a flat line. Anyone here know anything about tube-era technology? I've got a better 'scope that I use, but it'd be nice to get this ol' beast running again. Later, Doug. -- Douglas W. Jefferys | Star Data Systems | Email: djeffery@multipath.com | From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 06:34:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:34:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:33:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" cc: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" Subject: Re: BZ Blooming In-Reply-To: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC79@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech) wrote: > I need a cross on the diode in the HV line on a BZ. I know I have seen it > before but can't remember now where to get them. Electrohome G-05 ? Check the magenta (or wherever it's moved to now) web site, under Monitor's, where Jess put up the cross reference part I found. (No, I don't remember what the part is either, I would have to look it up there too :-) ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 09:28:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:28:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34FD8DD3.6A93@links.magenta.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:22:27 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: BZ Blooming (Cross location) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Christopher X. Candreva wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech) wrote: > > > I need a cross on the diode in the HV line on a BZ. I know I have seen it > > before but can't remember now where to get them. > > Electrohome G-05 ? Check the magenta (or wherever it's moved to now) web > site, under Monitor's, where Jess put up the cross reference part I found. > > (No, I don't remember what the part is either, I would have to look it up > there too :-) it is at http://www.gamearchive.com/video/manufacturer/atari/vector/html/monitor.html The info is from chris and is as follows... > the diode between the flyback and the tube (Part# H1812) can be replaced with > either an SK7333 or ECG/NTE 527A. -- Jess M. Askey *** Coming Soon - The Game Archive *** Game Spot/Audio Analyst * Pinball, Video, Parts, Collecting * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B * http://www.gamearchive.com * Laramie WY 82070 ************************************** From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 10:12:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:10:02 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: RE: LV2000 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Clay, Sorry about that. If you want, I'll send you an assembly doc. (BTW, Anders packed your bag, guess he was concentrating more on making sure his check for your sega multigame was included ;-) ) Someone discovered another mistake in the installation docs. Under one of the wrench sections, it says to check Diodes D100-D104 and it should say D100-D103 (D104 comes out) Here are the mouser part numbers The only one you have to make sure you order the exact part is the 1-turn 1k Cermet trim pot. Mousers pots have slightly different spaced leads and the board is made specifically for that one. If you are ordering enough parts to make it worthwhile paying shipping from 2 companies, I suggest ordering some of the parts from Circuit Specialists (They charge $7 shipping). I put a * after the parts we ordered from C.S. If you order everything from Mouser it should cost about $7.50 + shipping. # Desc. Mouser Part 2) 240 1/4 W 29SJ250-240 2) 4.3k 1/4 W 29SJ250-4.3k 2) 4.7k 1/4 W 29SJ250-4.7k 2) 1-turn 1k Cermet trim 569-25PR-1k 6) 1N4002 Diodes 583-1N4002 * 2) .47uF 50V Tantalum 581-0.47M50V 2) 10uF 25V Tant. 581-10M25V 2) 1uF 35V Tant. 581-1.0K35V * 2) 3mm Red LEDs 351-3102 * 1) TO220 Adj V Reg 511-LM317T 1) TO220 -Adj V Reg 511-LM337SP (337T)* >> Alright, Clay, why don't you "read" the Assembly docs? ;-) >> There *is* a parts list in the assembly docs on page 3. >> >Uhhhhhh... No. The only thing I got tells me how to install a complete >kit onto a deflection board... > >> If you go to http://www.diac.com/~jeffh/lv2000/lv2000as.pdf and then >> scroll to >> page 3, and then zoom in to the silk screen picture, you should see it >> pretty clearly. >> >Ah, that's much better! I take it there was supposed to be one of these >in my package? (Or there was and I lost it before seeing it... ;-) > >-Clay jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 10:36:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:36:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: LV2000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:37:07 GMT Message-ID: <34fe9f0b.61174051@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:32 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >Hi all (and Anders and Jeff in particular)-- > >Got my LV2000 boards yesterday. I'm quite impressed with the board and >docs! Good work guys! I agree, nice job!! -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 4 16:47:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:47:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34FDF64C.DA616F71@tir.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:48:12 -0500 From: Scott Goings X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Y axis adjustment on Tempest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Scott Goings Al and Greg: Thanks for the information on the field fix board. I was planning on removing it when I installed the LV2000. But after reading about in Greg's repair FAQ, I will be leaving it in. I have not tested the regulator circuit but will do so along with Greg's suggestion on the ZD902. (Greg - Thanks for the FAQ, it got me through my first problem with the machine.) After I determine the cause of the problem I will report back to the list. Thanks, Scott Goings Al Kossow wrote: > "I pulled out the low voltage board this evening and found what I believe > to be a nonstandard modification to the circuit" > > This was a input voltage limiting circuit that was added as a field > modification to the monitors. I beleive you will find an ascii version > of the circuit in Greg W's W-G repair FAQ. > > I assume that you've checked that the exisiting LV regulator circuit > is still working, and the output isn't high? Greg Woodcock wrote: My guess is that you are also experiencing a problem with the X-axis but that you just happen to have enough pot adjustment to counteract it. I'd bet your ZD902 is bad on your HV unit and you have a low HV condition causing blooming. It's cheap enough to replace so I'd start there. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 00:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:38:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Kgowland Message-ID: <3e7cf4d1.34fe6456@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:37:39 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Opinion needed: Lunar Lander/Asteroids factory conversion Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kgowland I have a Lunar Lander cabinet that was converted at the factory to an Asteroids. I know this because it has 215xx (signifying Asteroids) for model number and a different sticker that says AST 1350 for the serial number. Here is where I need your opinions; is it better (value-wise - if I become destitute and have to sell it) to leave it as a rare Asteroids or return it to Lunar Lander status? I have the Lunar Lander boardset and got it to work recently. Should I look for the cp for Lunar Lander or leave it alone? Just as in the upcoming vote for/against RGVAM, majority will decide whether it stay as Asteroids or return to Lunar Lander. Kirby G PS: I will voting to REMOVE RGVAM. WTB Blaster cockpit or a Lamborghini; whichever is cheaper. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 04:07:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 04:06:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 07:05:34 -0500 (EST) From: Duncan Brown Subject: Re: Opinion needed: Lunar Lander/Asteroids factory conversion To: vectorlist@spies.com Message-id: <01IUAR89262A00VFJS@Eisner.DECUS.Org> Organization: Digital Equipment Computer Users Society X-VMS-To: IN%"vectorlist@spies.com" X-VMS-Cc: BROWN_DU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Duncan Brown > I have a Lunar Lander cabinet that was converted at the factory to an > Asteroids. I know this because it has 215xx (signifying Asteroids) for model > number and a different sticker that says AST 1350 for the serial number. Here Are you sure that's it? I've seen an Asteroids just like that, but was convinced it was just a really *early* Asteroids. It had white sides...and IIRC a sticker instead of paint right on laminated wood (black laminated wood for production Asteroids). But nothing whatsoever about it made me think it had ever been a Lunar Lander (which also had paint right on black laminated wood sides.) Interestingly, I think the one I saw had that *exact* serial number. This was in Waynesboro, Virginia a couple of years ago and was destined to be sold at auction or tossed in the trash. Duncan From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 09:31:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:30:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <34FEE148.3293@an.hp.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:30:48 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Votrax SC-01 References: <01BD2FDB.3BAA4600@pc165.prog.altair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Is there any chance that someone on this list has an extra Votrax SC-01 speech synthesis chip for sale? I know it's not vector related, but we are definately the type of guys to have such items laying around if anyone would. I thought I'd ask. I do know that Gorf, WoW, and QBert use this chip, but I don't own any of these boardsets. I'd rather not canibalize one either, but I will go that route if I have to I suppose. I'm repairing my Heath Hero Jr. robot. I got this almost one year ago, non-working, and it has been frustrating me for a long while. The robot is almost completely inoperative, except for some bus activity. Last weekend, I picked up the project again and with the help of a better scope, I noticed that a stable bit pattern was being put onto the bus. I borrowed a logic analyzer and stuck that on the data bus and captured what was going on. I confirmed that the CPU was executing a tight loop, on the order of 20 instructions. I disassembled the code into potential fragments, and I compared these to a version of disassembled but somewhat commented code for the entire monitor rom program. I managed to do some pattern matching, and zeroed in on the code segment that was being executed, and learned that this piece of code was trying to talk to the speech synthesizer. Specifically, it was looping forever, waiting for the "phoneme complete" line to strobe. That strobe was not coming. I removed the chip, and hooked up a clock to that line instead in order to fake out the CPU. And it worked! Having a signal there was all the robot needed to get out of the loop so it could continue doing its initialization routine. It was cool. My wife was not so excited when I woke her up at 12:30am last night to tell her of my progress. But, as loving as she is, she was happy for me at least. ;-) Anyway, the problem is that the speech is a huge part of the output of this guy, and it's just not the same without speech. It's almost unusable, because all the requests for data are given verbally. Obviously, I'd like to fix it so that the whole thing works like it should. If anyone has one of these chips available, I'd be most appreciative! And, as soon as I finish up this project, then I can program the robot to guard the vector arcade. I can program it to guard a room and set off an alarm if the intruder doesn't enter the right password into its keypad. HEHEHEHE. Actually, then I can get back to my backlog of projects, including fixing a few more Amplifones and building those LV2000's .. You guys on the west coast are lucky. I still haven't received mine yet. At least El Nino has brought us a mild winter with almost no snow... Thanks, Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 11:50:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:49:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34FF01AA.B2AEE48F@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:48:58 -0500 From: Corey Stup X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Votrax SC-01 References: <01BD2FDB.3BAA4600@pc165.prog.altair.com> <34FEE148.3293@an.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Corey Stup Hey Joel, I found a new SC-01 from a local game vendor, about 6 months ago. Paid $15, and he was really happy to finally get rid of it. I had a really hard time finding one used on the net - people kept responding with "Just find a Gorf boardset".... Well, since I don't have any Gorf boardsets, and all the ones that I did find already had the SC-01 pulled, that wasn't doing me any good. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 13:18:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:17:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:16:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199803052116.PAA01639@moe.works.ti.com> From: Michael Schulz To: vectorlist@spies.com In-Reply-To: (message from Clay Cowgill on Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:21:07 -0800) Subject: Re: Board tester board... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Michael Schulz >So a while back I brought up the idea to make a "universal" test board >for working on game PCB's. >... >from the edge connector.) Heavier "posts" (like Atari's test points) >are comparitively spendy and take up a lot of PCB space. > For what it's worth, I'd much rather have more durable posts *especially* on test equipment. In my opinion, it's well worth it to use 'better' components on this type of kit. The cost difference is negligible. Maybe I'm the only one, but having just unpacked my Sega multigame board, I would have gladly paid the extra $1-2 to have machine pinned sockets, (etc.) instead of the cheapo radio shack quality sockets, (etc.) (Note - I'm not disappointed in the kit overall, just the decision to pinch pennies on the individual components.) Mike p.s. I know I'm running about a week late on responding to this, but I've been overloaded at work and am just now reading my email... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 16:50:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:49:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Misc updates... Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:48:56 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Sega Multigames-- I'm building up the last batch to go out right now. (This is Bill, John, Anders, Al, Dave, and a few others.) I ran out of sockets last night, so I'm waiting for JDR. Probably get stuff shipping middle of next week again. New ESB boards-- found my $@#$!@#$! 6809 pod last night, so I'll be working on the PAL for the new ESB kits again. Quickproto PCB fabricator-- remember me mentioning our division ordered one of these a couple months ago? Well, I never saw it arrive, and then today I was walking through the other R&D center and saw it set up in a cubicle! Thanks for telling me... *grumble* Anyway, I'm going to see if I can get trained on it and try a couple proto-boards for grins. :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 20:39:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:39:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: JBPeters Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:38:18 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: vector list Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: JBPeters I was wondering how to get on the vector mailing list; I've got some problems with a Tempest monitor. Got this address from Al Kossow. jeff From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 21:12:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:12:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC8B@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Star Wars way out of focus Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:11:31 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" I went to play my SW upright recently. And it came up OK but the vectors were REALLY out of focus. Upwards of 1" wide. Last time I used it about 6 months ago it was fine. This is an Ampliphone setup. Any ideas? David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 5 21:46:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:45:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:45:39 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Misc updates... Cc: Clay Cowgill Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 16:48 3/5/98, Clay Cowgill wrote: >Sega Multigames-- I'm building up the last batch to go out right now. >(This is Bill, John, Anders, Al, Dave, and a few others.) I ran out of >sockets last night, so I'm waiting for JDR. Probably get stuff shipping >middle of next week again. If this is still the case, PLEASE put in the high quality machine sockets on my boards; either that or ship it with no sockets at all cuz I'd rather put them in myself than have regular sockets. Also, I REALLY, REALLY need that "old" ESB boardset (I can wait on the new ones) ASAP. I owe it to a friend of mine and he is losing patience. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 6 04:39:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:39:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980306073741.00813510@se.mediaone.net> X-Sender: dpage@se.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 07:37:41 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: dP Subject: Re: Star Wars way out of focus In-Reply-To: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDC8B@red-msg-59.dns.micr osoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dP Sounds like a bad flyback. I have had the same problem with raster monitiors, and it was the flyback on all. Dave At 09:11 PM 3/5/98 -0800, you wrote: >I went to play my SW upright recently. And it came up OK but the vectors >were REALLY out of focus. Upwards of 1" wide. > >Last time I used it about 6 months ago it was fine. > >This is an Ampliphone setup. > >Any ideas? > >David > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 6 14:23:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:22:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: LV2000 parts... Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:21:37 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill For those of you that bought 10+ LV2000 boards you can probably save a few $$$ by ordering some of the parts from Jameco. In particular, the LM317 and LM337 are cheaper, as is the 10uF 25V tant cap. I didn't work out the break-even on shipping and whatnot since there was some other stuff I needed from Jameco anyway. Just a thought... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 8 13:09:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 13:08:20 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:07:01 -0600 From: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Message-Id: <199803082107.PAA19722@sijer.Mayo.EDU> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: what is... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) The number stamped into the wood above the back door on an Atari Star Wars? Thanks- Cris ----------------------------------------------------------- Cristopher J. Rhea Mayo Foundation Research Computing Facility Guggenheim 1001B crhea@Mayo.EDU Rochester, MN 55905 Fax: (507) 266-4486 (507) 284-0587 ----------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 07:46:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:46:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803091510.JAA12052@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 09:10:37 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Original ESB PCB for sale Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari As a heads up to folks on this list, my original Atari factory conversion ESB PCB is currently up for auction (going going gone phase starts Friday). Current bid is $135, which is a deal for those fanatics among us that insist on originals for their collections (thankfully, I've started to mature ;-) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 08:34:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803091633.LAA17444@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Original ESB PCB for sale To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:33:00 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199803091510.JAA12052@fermat.mayo.edu> from "Ray Ghanbari" at Mar 9, 98 09:10:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > As a heads up to folks on this list, my original Atari factory conversion ESB > PCB is currently up for auction (going going gone phase starts Friday). > Current bid is $135, which is a deal for those fanatics among us that insist on > originals for their collections (thankfully, I've started to mature ;-) > > Ray So maturity boils down to caring more about money... Otherwise you wouldn't mind the space the originals take up & the money they cost (or that you can get for them). Don't get me wrong, I agree completely - a modified Star Wars set is more practical than having both. But this "maturity" road if taken too far leads to bad things... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 09:49:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <35042911.35EC@an.hp.com> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:38:25 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Tempest spinners References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Hi all, Just in case you are interested ... I am going to do an experiment with my second Tempest spinner to replace the two bushings with nice ball bearings for the ultimate in smoothness! No more "BRRRRrrrrrr!" sound that we all know and love. ;-) I've been using the teflon grease for 2 years, and that works well, but I want a more permanent solution. Anyway, I measured the bushings and located ball bearings that are almost suitable. I found a bearing with the same ID (0.25in), same flange thickness (0.036in), but with a slightly larger OD (0.375 instead of 0.315in). They are $4.25 each. All I need to do is bore out the holes in the Tempest spinner, drop these in place, and I'll be in business. I ordered the bearings today, so I'll probably have them by Friday, and I'll install them this weekend. If you are interested in any more details because you want to do this for your own Tempest spinner, let me know. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 10:48:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:48:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tempest spinners Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 18:48:36 GMT Message-ID: <3504378c.54195086@tommy.doctord.com> References: <35042911.35EC@an.hp.com> In-Reply-To: <35042911.35EC@an.hp.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:38:25 -0500, Joel Rosenzweig = wrote: >Hi all, > >Just in case you are interested ... > >I am going to do an experiment with my second Tempest spinner to replace >the two bushings with nice ball bearings for the ultimate in >smoothness! No more "BRRRRrrrrrr!" sound that we all know and love.=20 >;-) I've been using the teflon grease for 2 years, and that works well, >but I want a more permanent solution. > >Anyway, I measured the bushings and located ball bearings that are >almost suitable. I found a bearing with the same ID (0.25in), same >flange thickness (0.036in), but with a slightly larger OD (0.375 instead >of 0.315in). They are $4.25 each. All I need to do is bore out the >holes in the Tempest spinner, drop these in place, and I'll be in >business. > >I ordered the bearings today, so I'll probably have them by Friday, and >I'll install them this weekend. If you are interested in any more >details because you want to do this for your own Tempest spinner, let me >know. Go to your local surplus store and look for some old stepper or servo = motors with a 1/4" *long* shaft that use ball bearings. I found a couple of = them locally for $5.00 a piece. By removing all the guts from the motor and keeping the case I found it = very easy to mount the motor to the bottom of old spinner with the shaft = sticking up though the original holes. (hint: To remove coils that have been pressed = fitted into the motor's casing, you a heat gun on the casing, it expands and the= coils slip out pretty easily.) Then slip on the original spinner to the = motor's shaft and you have a real nice spinner. The nice thing about this approach is already having the bearings nicely mounted. Either way good luck (and yes, I'd be interested in how you mount the = bearings.) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 15:15:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:14:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803092147.PAA05796@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: <199803091633.LAA17444@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:47:27 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Original ESB PCB for sale References: <199803091633.LAA17444@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > So maturity boils down to caring more about money... Otherwise you wouldn't > mind the space the originals take up & the money they cost (or that you can > get for them). Don't get me wrong, I agree completely - a modified Star Wars > set is more practical than having both. But this "maturity" road if taken > too far leads to bad things... Perhaps it is time for Steve to publish his "Evolution of a Collector" FAQ so I have something to defend myself with ;-) As with most of us, $$ is not the driving issue (or my case, any issue...I prefer trades). My collecting maturity is more focusing on those things that had special meaning for me as a youngster, and not going after the most rare or most complete collection (same reason I traded my Blaster set and am selling my Joust 2) Put another way, you'll pry my Tempest from my cold dead fingers, but if someone else can find joy in owning an original ESB, I'm more than happy to help them out. If anything, the availability of the ESB hack means that those that really care about the game (rather than just playing it) will be the only ones bidding (==cheap). More power to them, and I'm glad for it... Now if someone could drum up an original Atari Pong for me, I'd be in hog heaven (first video game I ever player, and I still get goosebumps thinking about it) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 16:02:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:02:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Original ESB PCB for sale Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:03:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Well, it turns out that "maturity" in collectors was discussed in relation to the recent Operator FAQ rewrite (which should be in the hands of the operator reviewers shortly). I'm not sure if that concept was axed, but I did like the definition we came up with: This hobby is *ABOUT* video games, but it is *NOT* a video game in and of itself -- it doesn't matter what "level" you're working at, so long as you're enjoying yourself. Well, it was either this quote or something more blunt like "Hey, it ain't necessarily a matter of who dies with the most toys!" I'll let you all guess whether Doug or I came up with this last one...8^) 8^) 8^) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Evolution FAQ will be released with the rewritten Operator FAQ. I don't know if the Auction FAQ is going to be rewritten...we'd originally discussed it, but I think that may have gone by the wayside due to time constraints (and not enough complaints about it being out of date). ObVector: I did look at a Barrier sound board again this weekend. It's more organized than the Space Wars, but the component count has to be the same. Shouldn't we be able to remanufacture both of these with some of the modern stuff. Didn't Joe say there was something that could duplicate simple analog circuits like the ones used by Space Wars and Barrier? (Speed Freak's sound board looks like Star Hawk's...at least 20 ICs and alot of organization. Not a candidate...sorry.) >---------- >From: Ray Ghanbari[SMTP:ray@mayo.edu] >Sent: Monday, March 09, 1998 1:47 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Ray Ghanbari >Subject: Re: Original ESB PCB for sale > >You wrote: >> So maturity boils down to caring more about money... Otherwise you wouldn't >> mind the space the originals take up & the money they cost (or that you can >> get for them). Don't get me wrong, I agree completely - a modified Star >>Wars >> set is more practical than having both. But this "maturity" road if taken >> too far leads to bad things... > >Perhaps it is time for Steve to publish his "Evolution of a Collector" FAQ so > >I have something to defend myself with ;-) > >As with most of us, $$ is not the driving issue (or my case, any issue...I >prefer trades). My collecting maturity is more focusing on those things that > >had special meaning for me as a youngster, and not going after the most rare >or >most complete collection (same reason I traded my Blaster set and am selling >my Joust 2) > >Put another way, you'll pry my Tempest from my cold dead fingers, but if >someone else can find joy in owning an original ESB, I'm more than happy to >help them out. If anything, the availability of the ESB hack means that >those >that really care about the game (rather than just playing it) will be the >only >ones bidding (==cheap). More power to them, and I'm glad for it... > >Now if someone could drum up an original Atari Pong for me, I'd be in hog >heaven (first video game I ever player, and I still get goosebumps thinking >about it) > >Ray > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 16:30:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:29:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Message-Id: <199803092344.RAA25698@sijer.Mayo.EDU> Subject: Re: Original ESB PCB for sale To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:44:33 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199803092147.PAA05796@fermat.mayo.edu> from "Ray Ghanbari" at Mar 9, 98 03:47:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Ray wrote: > As with most of us, $$ is not the driving issue (or my case, any issue...I > prefer trades). My collecting maturity is more focusing on those things that > had special meaning for me as a youngster, and not going after the most > rare or most complete collection (same reason I traded my Blaster set and > am selling my Joust 2) For Ray, youngster was "last week". Kind of like when a 10 year old says "when I was a kid...". ;) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Cristopher J. Rhea Mayo Foundation Research Computing Facility Guggenheim 1001B crhea@Mayo.EDU Rochester, MN 55905 Fax: (507) 266-4486 (507) 284-0587 ----------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 9 20:34:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:32:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Kurt Mahan Message-Id: <199803100432.VAA02143@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Original ESB PCB for sale To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:32:00 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199803092147.PAA05796@fermat.mayo.edu> from "Ray Ghanbari" at Mar 9, 98 03:47:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kurt Mahan > Now if someone could drum up an original Atari Pong for me, I'd be in hog > heaven (first video game I ever player, and I still get goosebumps thinking > about it) Uhh ray? Which version? I can't put my hands on the orange plastic Pong, but I can put them on the wooden one with the yellow front (complete with the original TV set for a monitor..) Its in B condition. I'm 99% sure you can have it for shipping.. (I just put a call in to make sure it doesn't get trashed.. :) I powered it up this weekend and didn't get an image, but the tv seems to be ok, and looking at the ttl board, "how hard could it be?" Kurt From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 10 09:07:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Original ESB PCB for sale Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:03:24 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > ObVector: I did look at a Barrier sound board again this weekend. > It's > more organized than the Space Wars, but the component count has to be > the same. Shouldn't we be able to remanufacture both of these with > some > of the modern stuff. Didn't Joe say there was something that could > duplicate simple analog circuits like the ones used by Space Wars and > Barrier? (Speed Freak's sound board looks like Star Hawk's...at least > 20 ICs and alot of organization. Not a candidate...sorry.) > I just bought Electronics Workbench which is a mixed-mode circuit simulator. It uses SPICE (3R5 I think) as an analog engine which has been extended to support digital circuits as well. Really handy for seeing how stuff works (especially for non-analog guru's like me ;-). I was going to try to simulate a couple sounds from the Space Fury sound board with it for grins... (I already used it for making some color-output circuits for a vector generator. Pretty cool.) Electronics Workbench is ~$300, but I remembered an old $199 promotion so I called and asked if I could have that price. They gave it to me for $200... (And they make Mac Versions, Al ;-) There are certainly higher-end solutions that do mixed-mode stuff (DR-SPICE comes to mind) but I think they're much bigger $$$. EW has a friendly "hobbiest" feel to it (but some of my co-workers used it extensively in "pro" applications too). -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 12 12:47:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803122042.OAA22708@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Thu, 12 Mar 98 14:42:40 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Old CNMA monitors Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari (Surprise! An on topic post from Ray ;-) Has anyone scanned in the schematics of the older style cinematronics monitors? We're trying to revive a Space Wars that seems to work great except for a lack of HV to the monitor (boards work, game plays, you can hear deflection chatter, etc.) Unfortunately, only schematics I have are from later CNMA games that took the HV section off the main monitor PCB and replaced it with the Keltron assembly. The monitor in the Space Wars has all the components on the monitor PCB, with a little cage over the fly back. Of course, if others have dealt with these symptoms before, advice would be appreciated. Thanks Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 12 17:16:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:16:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Old CNMA monitors Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 01:17:11 GMT Message-ID: <350983fb.3667516@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803122042.OAA22708@fermat.mayo.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803122042.OAA22708@fermat.mayo.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 12 Mar 98 14:42:40 -0600, Ray Ghanbari wrote: >(Surprise! An on topic post from Ray ;-) > >Has anyone scanned in the schematics of the older style cinematronics =20 >monitors? We're trying to revive a Space Wars that seems to work great = except =20 >for a lack of HV to the monitor (boards work, game plays, you can hear =20 >deflection chatter, etc.) > >Unfortunately, only schematics I have are from later CNMA games that = took the =20 >HV section off the main monitor PCB and replaced it with the Keltron = assembly. =20 >The monitor in the Space Wars has all the components on the monitor PCB,= with =20 >a little cage over the fly back. The Barrier monitor schematic on www.spies.com contains the HV section. = It's also one of the .TIF files that is readable by Paint Shop Pro. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 07:00:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:00:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <35094A1F.6CAF@an.hp.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:00:48 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: New Cat box development? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Whatever happened to the new cat box development project? Did anyone make progress with that? Was I asleep at the wheel? Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 07:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803131520.HAA02962@kingdom.adaptec.com> X-Sender: andersk@btc.btc.adaptec.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:20:16 -0700 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Anders Knudsen Subject: Re: New Cat box development? In-Reply-To: <35094A1F.6CAF@an.hp.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen At 10:00 AM 3/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Whatever happened to the new cat box development project? Did anyone >make progress with that? Was I asleep at the wheel? > >Joel- I haven't looked at it any further. If I remember we were thinking about the possibility of using a Motorola 68HC11 to create the "catbox deaux". I am still interested in this project. I have a 68HC11 development board sitting in my basement just waiting to be used! Now I just need to find some time to get started. Perhaps we need to define the architecture of the new catbox. Keeping in mind that we don't want to OD on the features. I'm happy with one that does the same thing the old catbox does, but is architectured such that one could expand on it. So who's up for writing the architecture "spec" so we have something to design to? I'm willing to be part of it. -Anders. ----------------------------------------- | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Longmont, CO | anders_knudsen@btc.adaptec.com | http://www.adaptec.com ========================================= From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 07:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:49:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:49:17 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: New Cat box development? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Whatever happened to the new cat box development project? Did anyone make progress with that? Was I asleep at the wheel?" I've been working on the PC parallel port adapter I mentioned a few weeks ago. I have a PC board done, and have been working on getting the Mach231 finished for it. It is essentially one part, parallel port bits and ph0 go in, and data/adr/ph1-2 come out. Internally it had a 16 bit adr counter that can auto increment for the adr. The tricky part is getting all the timing right relative to the ph0 input clock From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 09:23:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:22:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDCC7@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: New Cat box development? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:21:57 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" Well as the one who started this a while back I guess its up to me to make a status report: It boils down to no significant progress. Joe thinks that he can turn most of the glue logic into a PLD, then we would have an IC part count < 10 possibly < 5. But he has been pretty busy and hasn't had time to do the work on it. Anders is interested in doing a re-design using the 68hc11. I have been reading up on parallel port interfacing with the thought of just writing some code and running a bunch of i/o lines and some glue logic with 10 plus test leads. And I still have a bunch of BZ boards that this would be really helpful on. :) David > ---------- > From: Joel Rosenzweig[SMTP:joel-r@an.hp.com] > Reply To: vectorlist@spies.com > Sent: Friday, March 13, 1998 7:00 AM > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Cc: Joel Rosenzweig > Subject: New Cat box development? > > Whatever happened to the new cat box development project? Did anyone > make progress with that? Was I asleep at the wheel? > > Joel- > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 09:24:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:24:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDCC8@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Cc: Anders Knudsen Subject: RE: New Cat box development? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:23:58 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" > I haven't looked at it any further. If I remember we were thinking about > the possibility of using a Motorola 68HC11 to create the "catbox deaux". > I am still interested in this project. I have a 68HC11 development board > sitting in my basement just waiting to be used! > Now I just need to find some time to get started. And there is the problem for all of us. > Perhaps we need to define the architecture of the new catbox. Keeping in > mind that we don't want to OD on the features. I'm happy with one that > does > the same thing the old catbox does, but is architectured such that one > could expand on it. > Well to start with we need to emulate all the functions of the original cat box (minus the logic probe probably). > So who's up for writing the architecture "spec" so we have something to > design to? I'm willing to be part of it. > > Let me dig out my docs again and I will start a bullet list on just what the features were. David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 09:27:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:27:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803131726.LAA00087@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: <350983fb.3667516@tommy.doctord.com> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 11:26:49 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Old CNMA monitors References: <199803122042.OAA22708@fermat.mayo.edu> <350983fb.3667516@tommy.doctord.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > The Barrier monitor schematic on www.spies.com contains the HV section. It's > also one of the .TIF files that is readable by Paint Shop Pro. Got it! Thanks for the pointer. While there, I saw the service bulletin regarding arcing on cnma monitors with the Sylvania tube. Looks like the recommended action was to use a neo lamp to sink the HV field. Has anyone dealt with this problem with the older Sylvania tubes? Is it a serious/common problem? Using a neon lamp seems to be quite a hack. I'd like to skip it if not necessary (of course, we have to get the HV working again first ;-) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 10:24:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:24:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:23:30 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to use a single "multigame" control panel (and I think Joe was tinkering with the sound stuff?) I was going to take a look at a Cinemat->Wells Gardner monitor adapter based on the stuff Al found... Anyone working on this? Just curious since I have a (mostly) working Cinematronics platform now... (thanks, Bill!) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 11:47:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:15 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Sean Riddle was working on a universal control panel (and was Paul or Zonn looking into patches?), but I don't think Sean got far. I've always been interested in a universal control panel. I'm looking taking all the "button games from Cinematronics" and using an EPROM approach to translate the buttons to a Rip Off control panel (where I'll need to rig something for the Space Wars selection pad). I'd like to get Space Wars, Barrier, Rip Off, Star Castle, War of the Worlds, Armor Attack and Solar Quest all squeezed into a Rip Off control panel. I'd like to include Sundance but this would be tough given the control panel layout. And between Sundance's specialized monitor and the low chance of locating (or remanufacturing) a spare Sundance sound board, I just can't convince myself to include Sundance and raise the game count past 8. (The only reason I included Barrier is that I think the sound board can be remanufactured...the layout of the Barrier control panel is going to be a problem.) I already have a Warrior with Star Hawk, since they share the same joysticks (and no I haven't carved the Warrior control panel up for the three speed buttons on Star Hawk). Maybe this is where I should put Barrier since I think it would do well with joystick controls? Tail Gunner and Speed Freak just aren't good candidates given the analog pots and special wiring for these controls. Did I miss any Cinematronics/Vectorbeam games? I thought there were 14 games known to exist?? Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Wish I could get Joe interested in just reproducing the Space Wars and Barrier sound boards. Low component counts and simpler designs. I'd hope that means they'd be easier and just the perfect candidates for projects to practice on before taking on the more challenging "Universal Cinematronics Sound Board" project. But hey, if Clay is getting interested in this area, maybe reproducing Space Wars or Barrier sound boards is the simple project he's looking for? (You think if I drag Zonn into this by suggesting that "Remanufacturing sound boards just goes over Zonn's head", then there'd be some rapid progress? 8^) 8^) 8^) Nothing like some competition among our best and brightest, eh?) >---------- >From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:ClayC@diamondmm.com] >Sent: Friday, March 13, 1998 10:23 AM >To: 'vectorlist@spies.com' >Cc: Clay Cowgill >Subject: Cinematronics multigame? > >Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? > >I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to >use a single "multigame" control panel (and I think Joe was tinkering >with the sound stuff?) I was going to take a look at a Cinemat->Wells >Gardner monitor adapter based on the stuff Al found... > >Anyone working on this? Just curious since I have a (mostly) working >Cinematronics platform now... (thanks, Bill!) > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >------------------------------------------------- >/\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. >\/ Communications Division > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 12:12:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:10:39 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Sean Riddle was working on a universal control panel (and was Paul or > Zonn looking into patches?), but I don't think Sean got far > Ahhh. That's who I remembered. (Sean and Paul, that is.) > I'd like to get Space Wars, Barrier, Rip Off, Star Castle, War of the > Worlds, Armor Attack and Solar Quest all squeezed into a Rip Off > control > panel. > That's about what I was hoping for since the only machine I have is a Rip Off... > ps - Wish I could get Joe interested in just reproducing the Space > Wars > and Barrier sound boards. Low component counts and simpler designs. > I'd hope that means they'd be easier and just the perfect candidates > for > projects to practice on before taking on the more challenging > "Universal > Cinematronics Sound Board" project. > I'd go for that. I discovered that Diamond uses the Analog Devices ADSP2181 DSP on the Monster Sound Card... Sooooo... I got a 2181 EZ-KIT and might try some DSP. I'm not thinking of actually recreating the correct sound effects, I'm thinking more along the lines of a glorified sample-player. (This solves the Sega Multigame sound problems to a certain degree too.) I barely know enough about DSP to even be dangerous, but the 2181 looks pretty beefy and simple to use. (It has 16K of internal Data and 16K or Program RAM onboard, so all you have is the DSP, Crystal, EPROM(s), and CODEC. Pretty clean.) The EZ-KIT is only $89 and looks like it should work for all the development (and probably be an OK "production" platform too if interest is too low to merit a run of PCB's). > But hey, if Clay is getting interested in this area, maybe reproducing > Space Wars or Barrier sound boards is the simple project he's looking > for? (You think if I drag Zonn into this by suggesting that > "Remanufacturing sound boards just goes over Zonn's head", then > there'd > be some rapid progress? 8^) 8^) 8^) Nothing like some competition > among our best and brightest, eh?) > Nahhh, Zonn's just too *CHICKEN* to try reproducing a Space Wars or Barrier sound board. *bwwwwockkk!* *bwock* *bwock* *bwock!!* (Fine, laugh. Let's see *you* spell the noise a chicken makes. *cluck* didn't look right.) Nothing like some juvenile peer pressure to get the ball rolling! -Clay (Don't worry, I'm finishing the Sega Multigames first. And trying my new ESB idea...) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 12:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:16:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803132009.OAA08139@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 14:10:24 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? > > I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to > use a single "multigame" control panel (and I think Joe was tinkering > with the sound stuff?) I was going to take a look at a Cinemat->Wells > Gardner monitor adapter based on the stuff Al found... > > Anyone working on this? Just curious since I have a (mostly) working > Cinematronics platform now... (thanks, Bill!) I was thinking about this last night. Now that I have a Space Wars, I have a control panel config that will deal with nearly all the cnma games (everything except Tail Gunner and Speed Freak, right?). May I respectfully suggest Space Wars as the "standard" for the multigame? ;-) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 12:30:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:30:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803132021.OAA08697@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 14:22:30 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > Sean Riddle was working on a universal control panel (and was Paul or > Zonn looking into patches?), but I don't think Sean got far. I've > always been interested in a universal control panel. I'm looking taking > all the "button games from Cinematronics" and using an EPROM approach to > translate the buttons to a Rip Off control panel (where I'll need to rig > something for the Space Wars selection pad). Wasn't the suggestion to hack the ROMs, like Clay did with the Sega games? Would eliminate the need for a seperate switching system between the control panel and the cpu board. A couple years ago, this was deemed impractical for the Williams hardware. Not sure if the cnma hardware uses a lot of redirection when polling inputs. Presumably, the emulators ought to be big help here... Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 12:46:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:46:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:44:02 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) It would be cool to have space wars as the "standard" for the multigame, except for the fact that a space wars cabinet is HUGE and hard to come by. (I don't think I will ever be able to get my space wars game into my basement, or even in the house for that matter) Probably the most common cinematronics game out there is star castle. With a control panel swap with ripoff or armor attack, or build your own, you could have a nice starting place for a multi game. How hard would it be to add an analog joystick to the middle of the panel. You have to have tail gunner to have a real multigame. Also, anybody up for tweaking the code in Armor Attack to draw the barriers, so we don't HAVE to have the overlay to play. -jeff >You wrote: >> Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? >> >> I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to >> use a single "multigame" control panel (and I think Joe was tinkering >> with the sound stuff?) I was going to take a look at a Cinemat->Wells >> Gardner monitor adapter based on the stuff Al found... >> >> Anyone working on this? Just curious since I have a (mostly) working >> Cinematronics platform now... (thanks, Bill!) > >I was thinking about this last night. Now that I have a Space Wars, I have a >control panel config that will deal with nearly all the cnma games >(everything >except Tail Gunner and Speed Freak, right?). May I respectfully suggest >Space >Wars as the "standard" for the multigame? ;-) > >Ray jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:06:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 13 Mar 1998 14:46 CST To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: ClayC@diamondmm.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: re:Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "Cinematronics multigame?", ClayC@diamondmm.com writes: > Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? Yea! That would be me. I posted to the vectorlist a few months back about my progress on the Cinematronics Multigame. The menu program I'm working on is getting quite lengthy. The biggest hold up is not having a good platform to do debugging on. You were actually really lucky that Al was generous enough to let you have access to the source for his emulator. I haven't had any luck in convincing anyone to let me look at the emulator source for completing the Cinematronics menu. Development would go a whole lot quicker if I could get in and set some break points. > I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to > use a single "multigame" control panel I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor Attack as the model. > (and I think Joe was tinkering with the sound stuff?) I also have a universal DSP based sound card, but the highest priority is on getting a decent menu running. > -Clay > > Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager > ------------------------------------------------- > /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. > \/ Communications Division Cheers, Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:25:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:25:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803132124.QAA20085@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:24:58 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 13, 98 12:10:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > > Sean Riddle was working on a universal control panel (and was Paul or > > Zonn looking into patches?), but I don't think Sean got far > > > Ahhh. That's who I remembered. (Sean and Paul, that is.) > Nothing like some juvenile peer pressure to get the ball rolling! Just get me some hardware so I can slap a Cinematronics board in my Space Duel (with color). I have no hardware to do any testing on. I once wrote a test program that worked fine on the emulator and sent it to Steve O. It didn't work right on the real thing (didn't crash though). I know what was wrong now, but I still need real hardware to verify anything. I had come up with a simple scheme to actually do the switching after a menu selection was made, but I'll have to go reinvent it. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:36:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:36:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980313213953.028c51c0@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:39:53 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: re:Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" I'd like to chime in here as well. A couple of months ago I started working on an assembler for Cinematronics. I tried writing a program to just draw line based on Zonn's example program in his Cinematronics docs. It didn't work. I tried a few tips that Zonn gave me but just gave up in frustration. The assembler is still rough around the edges but it works. I too would like to see a version of an emulator that would let me single step through code since I'd like to try and write a couple of simple diagnostic type programs. -Chris -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:45:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803132144.PAA12942@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 15:45:09 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > It would be cool to have space wars as the "standard" for the multigame, > except for the fact that a space wars cabinet is HUGE and hard to come by. > (I don't think I will ever be able to get my space wars game into my > basement, or even in the house for that matter) The depth of a space wars is ~ the same as the width of a regular arcade cabinet. Rotate it and away you go (or so I hope when I try to get mine into my basement ;-) I was suggesting the Space Wars control panel config and the Space Wars pinout to the cpu board as the standard. I'm presupposing the ROMs will be hacked to poll the correct inputs pins are the appropriate time. I'm also presupposing that folks will be building control panels for their favorite CNMA cabinet (or Atari cabinet if the cnma->wg conversion board gets built) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:51:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:50:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803132150.QAA20349@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:50:25 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Shostak" at Mar 13, 98 02:46:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well > as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor > Attack as the model. That is extremely cool. Keep going! Someone said it'd be nice if Armor Attack could draw it's own playfield. That's probably not possible on real hardware because there's too much vector length. The code to draw it is very short, but it spends a lot of time waiting for the lines to draw. The one thing I really want to do still is colorize Star Castle so it works without the overlay :-) This is probably reasonable - in the worst case it would require making it a 16K game. > I also have a universal DSP based sound card, but the highest priority > is on getting a decent menu running. I'll look into it again, but I'll need someone to ship rom images to for testing - This may take a few tries. I don't know of anyone in Michigan that has even SEEN a functional Cinegame in years. BTW, if you're far enough along for me to be stepping on toes here, I won't write a menu :-) BTW, what was the proposed game list? Star Castle War of the Worlds RipOff Armor Attack and... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 13:51:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:51:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:49:45 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Yea! That would be me. I posted to the vectorlist a few months back > about my progress on the Cinematronics Multigame. > Ahhh... The count's up to three now. ;-) Sorry, Mark, I forgot you. :-) > I haven't had any luck in > convincing anyone to let me look at the emulator source for completing > the Cinematronics menu. Development would go a whole lot quicker if I > could get in and set some break points. > Hmmm. Maybe Zonn will want to kick it loose. Paul too? I did pretty well with the Sega stuff by using MAME for testing (since it runs on the same machine I had my development tools on), but having source on Al's emulator and being able to hack "custom" debug routines for whatever I was working on really helped! > > > I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games > to > > use a single "multigame" control panel > > I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well > as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor > Attack as the model. > Hey! That's what I like to hear! Not to disappoint Ray, but I think whoever said that Star Castle and Armor Attack were probably the best "candidates" probably had it right. And if Mark's already got a good bit of the work done... > > (and I think Joe was tinkering with the sound stuff?) > > I also have a universal DSP based sound card, but the highest priority > is on getting a decent menu running. > What are you using? If it's fairly cheap and available I might try to talk you into letting me leech the design to use with the Sega stuff... :-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 14:08:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803132205.QAA14161@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 16:06:35 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > > I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well > > as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor > > Attack as the model. > > > Hey! That's what I like to hear! Not to disappoint Ray, but I think > whoever said that Star Castle and Armor Attack were probably the best > "candidates" probably had it right. And if Mark's already got a good > bit of the work done... Ah well. Still infinitely easier to rewire an existing SW control panel than to wire up some huge rerouting hack. Kudos for the game patches Mark! Definitely best to patch the software... Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 15:29:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:29:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 13 Mar 1998 17:21 CST To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "Cinematronics multigame?", ClayC@diamondmm.com writes: > Hmmm. Maybe Zonn will want to kick it loose. Paul too? I did pretty > well with the Sega stuff by using MAME for testing (since it runs on the > same machine I had my development tools on), but having source on Al's > emulator and being able to hack "custom" debug routines for whatever I > was working on really helped! Any interest from the keepers of the code? > > I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well > > as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor > > Attack as the model. > > > Hey! That's what I like to hear! Not to disappoint Ray, but I think > whoever said that Star Castle and Armor Attack were probably the best > "candidates" probably had it right. And if Mark's already got a good > bit of the work done... I think Rip Off (or Armor Attack) is definitely the way to go. I originally patched the games to use a Rip Off control panel, but ended up selling my Rip Off (to Joe I think). Then I got an Armor Attack, so I rewrote the patches for it. Both work great. When I ran Star Castle on the RO CP I was trying to decide whether to use the left of right set of controls, then Mike (Schulz) came up with the idea of using half of each. Now you can stand in the center of the game and it plays great. P1/P2 start is of course in the middle. > > > (and I think Joe was tinkering with the sound stuff?) > > > > I also have a universal DSP based sound card, but the highest priority > > is on getting a decent menu running. > > > What are you using? If it's fairly cheap and available I might try to > talk you into letting me leech the design to use with the Sega stuff... Probably the cheapest and most widely available DSP, I'm using the good old 320 (C50 if I recall). Cheers, Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 15:57:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:56:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 13 Mar 1998 17:48 CST To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "Cinematronics multigame?", phkahler@Oakland.edu writes: > Someone said it'd be nice if Armor Attack could draw it's own playfield. > That's probably not possible on real hardware because there's too much > vector length. The code to draw it is very short, but it spends a lot > of time waiting for the lines to draw. We've been pondering the same question down here. Using a G08 and tweaking the color board to use a faster slew rate might give you enough umf to draw it all. > The one thing I really want to do still is colorize Star Castle... Perhaps Ted Turner can help. Or, again, see G08 comment above. > BTW, if you're far enough along for me to be stepping on toes here, > I won't write a menu :-) Getting this platform to draw *anything* at all is a great accomplishment, I think more akin to black magic than rocket science. The emulator needs a red "light" to tell you when you've "poped" the breakers! :) > BTW, what was the proposed game list? > Star Castle > War of the Worlds > RipOff > Armor Attack > and... All the rest! The board I'm using now has a few megs on it and can easily hold all of the games, plus my menu, plus any diagnostic code anyone cares to write. Once you hit the 32 pin EPROM, space is no longer a problem. Speaking of diagnostic code, was the color test code ever put up on the web? BTW, who knows how to switch TG out of analog mode? Cheers, Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 16:24:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: cine exorcisor update Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I haven't sent a message about this in a while.. The boards are built, and Joe has them. They are generating the correct signatures, but I haven't tried plugging one into a cpu board yet From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 16:29:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:29:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:30:34 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Given that Rip Off and Armor Attack share the same pinouts and have 10 buttons (and room for a couple extra if you'd like to put hyperspace buttons in), I'd pick these control panels. I can verify that the Rip Off cabinet has enough room for my RO/SC/AA/SQ hack that I documented a couple years ago (and should still be on spies.com). I even have enough room to put this next hack to add Space Wars/Barrier/War of the Worlds/Daemon in, too. I strongly recommend against using the actual Space Wars cabinet/control panel, as the buttons aren't that good and I've proven you really don't need the extra space (even if you take the more bulky approach to conversions like I have where I have one sound board from every game in the cabinet). Now if you want to put one of the Cinematronics 22" or 25" screens into a cabinet, well then maybe use a Space Wars cabinet...but you'll find it isn't as deep as you need. If you'd like to make a universal control panel for any Cinematronics cabinet based off of a given game, Space War's design would be good place to start from. But if you were going to make a Space Wars selection keypad from scratch, then I'd use telephone touchtone pad with that nice 3 by 4 matrix that can be well utilized with Barrier's "four direction button control....push 2 for up, 8 for down, 4 for left and 6 for right" and Sundance's "nine button controller in a three by three matrix". Zonn...did you get the Daemon control panel? What does it use?? Joysticks??? I can also confirm that if you use a Star Castle control panel, there's extra room to drill a couple more holes for buttons so you can play Rip Off and Armor Attack. I munged alot of Star Castle control panels back when I made solderless SC-> SC + RO kits for people in the early 90's. Hope all these disjointed memories help in zeroing in on a control panel design! Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I think a 16 slot approach would be enough. All games except for Tail Gunner and Speed Freak (and Boxing Bugs...that's the one game I keep forgetting) would fit nicely in 11 slots leaving some extra room for menu programs and new discoveries/development. The eleven other games that I came up with are: Space Wars Barrier Sundance Star Hawk Warrior Rip Off Star Castle War of the Worlds Armor Attack Solar Quest Daemon >---------- >From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:ClayC@diamondmm.com] >Sent: Friday, March 13, 1998 1:49 PM >To: 'vectorlist@spies.com' >Cc: Clay Cowgill >Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? > >> > I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games >> to >> > use a single "multigame" control panel >> >> I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well >> as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor >> Attack as the model. >> >Hey! That's what I like to hear! Not to disappoint Ray, but I think >whoever said that Star Castle and Armor Attack were probably the best >"candidates" probably had it right. And if Mark's already got a good >bit of the work done... > >> > (and I think Joe was tinkering with the sound stuff?) >> >> I also have a universal DSP based sound card, but the highest priority >> is on getting a decent menu running. >> >What are you using? If it's fairly cheap and available I might try to >talk you into letting me leech the design to use with the Sega stuff... >:-) > >-Clay > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 16:35:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:34:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:34:57 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Zonn...did you get the Daemon control panel? What does it use?? Joysticks??? " I just saw one today.. It uses diamond-arranged key switches like Space War and Sundance From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 18:44:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:44:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Old CNMA monitors Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:44:36 GMT Message-ID: <3509eb18.3860732@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803122042.OAA22708@fermat.mayo.edu> <350983fb.3667516@tommy.doctord.com> <199803131726.LAA00087@fermat.mayo.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803131726.LAA00087@fermat.mayo.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 13 Mar 98 11:26:49 -0600, Ray Ghanbari wrote: >You wrote: >> The Barrier monitor schematic on www.spies.com contains the HV = section. It's >> also one of the .TIF files that is readable by Paint Shop Pro. > >Got it! Thanks for the pointer. > >While there, I saw the service bulletin regarding arcing on cnma = monitors with =20 >the Sylvania tube. Looks like the recommended action was to use a neo = lamp to =20 >sink the HV field. > >Has anyone dealt with this problem with the older Sylvania tubes? Is it= a =20 >serious/common problem? > >Using a neon lamp seems to be quite a hack. I'd like to skip it if not = =20 >necessary (of course, we have to get the HV working again first ;-) Actually neon tubes are pretty commonly used on most monitors. Look on = the neck PCB of most monitors and you see a couple of neon tubes. They break down at about 90 volts and can handle the momentary HV spikes = nicely. The brightness voltage on the Cinematronics monitors is 90v. By placing = 2 neon bulbs in series from the brightness wiper control to ground, all spikes = above 180v will be shorted to ground. I'd definitely recommend them. An ex-Cinematronics employee said they're= a must and were always added to any monitor returned for repair. Another fix that is highly recommended is the diode across the LF13331. = If the +/- power supply rails come up (or power down) unevenly it will take out = the LF13331. I can't remember the place to put the diode off hand, but check= out a newer Cinematronics schematic (Star Castle) and place a diode on your = monitor in the same place they show. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 18:51:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:51:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:51:51 GMT Message-ID: <350aef1e.4891097@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:10:39 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >> But hey, if Clay is getting interested in this area, maybe reproducing >> Space Wars or Barrier sound boards is the simple project he's looking >> for? (You think if I drag Zonn into this by suggesting that >> "Remanufacturing sound boards just goes over Zonn's head", then >> there'd >> be some rapid progress? 8^) 8^) 8^) Nothing like some competition >> among our best and brightest, eh?) >>=20 >Nahhh, Zonn's just too *CHICKEN* to try reproducing a Space Wars or >Barrier sound board. *bwwwwockkk!* *bwock* *bwock* *bwock!!* =20 > >(Fine, laugh. Let's see *you* spell the noise a chicken makes. *cluck* >didn't look right.) So why did Zonn cross the road? To get away from a bunch of loosers making chicken noises! ;^) ;^) Geeze! I'm away from my computer for one day and this is the treatment I= get? ;^) I have been dabbling a bit with ORCAD, and have started a Color = conversion board schematic... But your right, reproducing those sound cards is *awfully* difficult. If= you think you can do it, well go ahead, but I just think your going to be in = for some major disappointments. I personally think your doomed to failure... (But if you do *manage* to pull it off, I'd be interested in a Barrier! = :^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 18:54:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:54:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:54:38 GMT Message-ID: <350bf0ea.5351360@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803132144.PAA12942@fermat.mayo.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803132144.PAA12942@fermat.mayo.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 13 Mar 98 15:45:09 -0600, Ray Ghanbari wrote: >You wrote: >> It would be cool to have space wars as the "standard" for the = multigame, >> except for the fact that a space wars cabinet is HUGE and hard to come= by. >> (I don't think I will ever be able to get my space wars game into my >> basement, or even in the house for that matter) > >The depth of a space wars is ~ the same as the width of a regular arcade= =20 >cabinet. Rotate it and away you go (or so I hope when I try to get mine= into =20 >my basement ;-) > >I was suggesting the Space Wars control panel config and the Space Wars = pinout =20 >to the cpu board as the standard. I'm presupposing the ROMs will be = hacked to =20 >poll the correct inputs pins are the appropriate time. I'm also = presupposing =20 >that folks will be building control panels for their favorite CNMA = cabinet (or =20 >Atari cabinet if the cnma->wg conversion board gets built) The problem with using Space War, as is, as the standard is that in order= to get the extra buttons with out adding hardware, they used the dipswitch = inputs as buttons. This is one of the reasons people have problems burning Space = War images and running them in Star Castle boards. They don't know to open = all the dip switches. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 19:01:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:01:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: "Ross Hendricks" To: Subject: Re: cine exorcisor update Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:04:43 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd4f5a$85578bc0$LocalHost@callan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ross Hendricks" I'm sure we won't be hearing a thing from him until he get's back from his wedding. For those who don't know, Mr Welser is tying the knot this saturday.... Callan. >I haven't sent a message about this in a while.. The boards are built, and >Joe has them. They are generating the correct signatures, but I haven't >tried plugging one into a cpu board yet From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 19:27:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:28:07 GMT Message-ID: <350cf17a.5495671@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On 13 Mar 1998 14:46 CST, "Mark Shostak" wrote: >In message "Cinematronics multigame?", ClayC@diamondmm.com writes: > >> Wasn't there someone here working on a Cinematronics Multigame? > >Yea! That would be me. I posted to the vectorlist a few months back >about my progress on the Cinematronics Multigame. > >The menu program I'm working on is getting quite lengthy. The biggest >hold up is not having a good platform to do debugging on. You were >actually really lucky that Al was generous enough to let you have >access to the source for his emulator. I haven't had any luck in >convincing anyone to let me look at the emulator source for completing >the Cinematronics menu. Development would go a whole lot quicker if I >could get in and set some break points. Unfortunately I don't have a debugger built into my emulator. I do have = the option to dump things to a B&W monitor, but they're things one changes at compile time. As far as the source goes, I'm a bit politically tied up on that front = also. I'm working with a group of emulator guys on creating a "super emulator" = sort of thing. I agreed at the time of joining up with them I wouldn't release = the source until the emulator was released. (Release dates vary from weeks = to years on an hour by hour basis, so who knows?) >=20 >> I seem to recall some discussion about patching the existing games to >> use a single "multigame" control panel > >I've patched several games to use a unified control panel, as well >as using the same dip switch settings. I used Rip Off and Armor >Attack as the model. One thing I did do is place a simple logging subroutine in the emulator, = then run the games and dump the output. I've placed a file on my homepage = that is the address in each ROM, for each game, where an I/O read instruction was executed. The I/O read instruction Opcode is: '1x' where the lower nibble 'x' is a = number between 0 and 15 that is the I/O switch or input being read. By changing this lower nibble in the ROM specified you should be able to = re-map the games layout anyway you want. Simply find all the places an input is= read, that corresponds to the control panel switch you want re-arranged and = replace the lower 4 bits of that opcode to the new input you want to use. A mapping of the control panels for the different games can be found in = the .INI files supplied with my emulator. Look for the [Inputs] entry and go to = the third column of hex numbers. This is a bitmap of the control panel = input. (Bit-0 Set =3D Input 0, Bit-1 Set =3D Input 1, etc.) =46lipping around the dipswitches should be just as easy. But flipping = between dipswitches and inputs present some problems (Space War uses dipswitches = as some of it's inputs) The game 'dipswitches' are accessed by proceeding the '1x' opcode with a = '57' opcode. So it takes two bytes to read a 'dipswitch' and only one byte to= read an 'input'. And a dipswitch when read, appears to the game code in Bit-0= of the B-register, while 'inputs' appear as bit-0 in the A-register. So = swapping between Dipswitches and Control panel inputs is a bit harder to do than = simply re-arranging the control-panel-inputs or dip-switches separately, which = should be a piece of cake. (BTW: The '57' opcode that proceeds the '1x' opcode = will not be in the same ROM, but will appear in it's sister ROM at the same = address, or the address just before it, because of the EVEN/ODD layout) The listing of I/O addresses of most games is zipped up into the file:=20 http://www.zonn.com/Cinematronics/C_IO.ZIP and you have to download it by using the above address directly. I = haven't changed the homepage HTML to point to it. (It's only 3k long, an easy download.) This should help in control panel hacks! -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 13 21:43:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:43:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:41:23 GMT Message-ID: <350a177e.658671@smtp.zonn.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:34:57 -0800 (PST), aek (Al Kossow) wrote: >"Zonn...did you get the Daemon control panel? What does it use?? >Joysticks??? >" > >I just saw one today.. It uses diamond-arranged key switches like >Space War and Sundance Really? I wonder if there is more of one of these beasts. Mine has a = control panel with a layout similar to RipOff, with the addition of a "panic = bomb" button for each player. The switches are leaf switches like those used = by RipOff or StarCastle. The marque says "Demon" without the 'a'. -Zonn From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 14 19:19:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:18:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:17:12 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > I have been dabbling a bit with ORCAD, and have started a Color > conversion board > schematic... > Good to know, I'll keep away from that then. So what are they using all those stinking op-amps for on Boxing Bugs' WG convertor board? I'm using a 2n3904 with some resistors to make a cheap-o D/A for color generation with good results so far. (Kinda stole the idea from Quantum and just added more bits of resolution.) > But your right, reproducing those sound cards is *awfully* difficult. > If you > think you can do it, well go ahead, but I just think your going to be > in for > some major disappointments. I personally think your doomed to > failure... > Don't look at me! I'm all for making a multi-voice sample playback board and using that on both the Cinemat stuff and the Sega stuff (Space Fury, Zektor, Eliminator). TI DSP assembly language kinda spooks me, so I'll probably mess with the Analog Devices 2181 I mentioned earlier for now... > (But if you do *manage* to pull it off, I'd be interested in a > Barrier! :^) > :-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 14 19:23:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:23:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:21:53 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill [...] > RipOff or StarCastle. The marque says "Demon" without the 'a'. > Demon? Must not be the UNIX version then... Sorry, nerd humor. Couldn't resist. I need to go home... :-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 16 01:22:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 01:21:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <002d01bd2260$a26d0360$2a0000df@Obie> From: "David Shoemaker" To: Subject: Re: LV2000 Order Form Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:25:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3007.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3007.0 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker" Got my order, thanks avid -----Original Message----- From: Anders Knudsen To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: Anders Knudsen Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 1:54 PM Subject: LV2000 Order Form >OK, the fab order is in. It will take about 3 weeks for them to complete >the fab. If you send your order in now, I will not cash your check/money >order until I ship the kit. > >The order form below is for vectorlist folks only. That is, you must be >able to solder components on to a bare PCB. If you are unable to solder >because of lack of equipment, etc. I will assemble it for you for a small >fee. You may order several bare PCBs with parts and have me assemble one or >more for you. > >The BARE LV2000 PCB comes with instructions for assembly and installation >on the WG6100 monitor deflection PCB. The pricing is discounted based on >the number ordered (see order form). > >The BAG-O-PARTS includes 2 .47uF tantalum caps, 2 10uF tantalum caps, 2 1uF >tantalum caps, 4 1N4002 diodes, 2 1k trimpots, 2 240 ohm 1/4W resistors, 2 >4.3k 1/4W resistors, 2 4.7k 1/4W resistors, 2 small red LEDs, 1 LM317T >positive voltage regulator, 1 LM337T negative voltage regulator, 2 pieces >of 22ga. insulated wire. >Pricing is discounted based on the number ordered (see order form). > > >Please print* and send the order form with your payment: > >* Use Courier font (or other mono-spaced font) when printing! > >====================================================================== >LV2000 Order Form >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >DATE: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Send check or money order to: >Anders Knudsen >2780 Calkins Place >Broomfield, CO 80020 >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ship to: > __________________________________________________ > > __________________________________________________ > > __________________________________________________ > > __________________________________________________ > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > PRICE EACH >QUANTITY DESCRIPTION (circle one) TOTAL >-------- ------------------ -------------- --------- > >[ ] BARE LV2000 PCBs (1) $10.00 > (2-3) 9.00 > (4-5) 8.00 > (6-7) 7.50 > (8-9) 7.00 > (10+) 6.00 _________ > >[ ] BAG-O-PARTS (1-9) $ 8.00 > (10+) 7.00 _________ > >[ ] ASSEMBLY (each) $ 5.00 _________ > > Sub-Total: _________ > > Shipping: 3.00 > > TOTAL: > ========== > >====================================================================== > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 16 06:58:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 06:58:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803161458.JAA25711@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:58:12 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Shostak" at Mar 13, 98 05:48:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Now I remember what I was thinking for switching games. Since a multigame will need a daughter card for ROMs, I figured a game-select latch could sit on the same card with the following things happening: 1) power-up resets it to game 0 - the menu 2) one address line causes a second register to load i.e. if A12 goes high, the value in A0-A3 gets loaded into this second latch. 3) when the person "selects" a game, the menu program stops reseting the watchdog - causeing a "soft" reset which also loads the second register into the game-select register. This also leaves the game-select signals available for sound hardware. I don't think it'd be too hard to distinguish power-on and soft-reset conditions to do this, and the hardware would just be a daughter card plugged in the ROM sockets with an extra wire to pick up the reset from somewhere. Sound feasible? Zonn? Anyone? BTW, I've started writing a character generator for a menu program. I plan to test it out on our emulator later this week, but I still need someone to send ROM images to for testing on the real thing. Preferably someone who can burn chips and test relatively quickly. Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 16 11:16:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:16:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics multigame? Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:15:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Now I remember what I was thinking for switching games. Since a > multigame > will need a daughter card for ROMs, I figured a game-select latch > could > sit on the same card with the following things happening: > > 1) power-up resets it to game 0 - the menu > 2) one address line causes a second register to load i.e. if A12 goes > high, > the value in A0-A3 gets loaded into this second latch. > 3) when the person "selects" a game, the menu program stops reseting > the > watchdog - causeing a "soft" reset which also loads the second > register > into the game-select register. > Is A12 basically unused in all games? (I wonder since Boxing Bugs has a big EPROM daughtercard-- but I don't know much about Cinemat hardware.) For the Sega Multigame I just mapped a new I/O address and hang the bank select latches off of that. Even if you don't have the ability to memory map stuff directly, you can still use the address-line only scheme, but it might be wise to use a GAL and have a little state machine that handles the latch. (So something like address bus= %101010101010 followed by %01010101xxxx results in xxxx being latched. The odds of getting &AAA followed by &55x in "real" code seems pretty small.) Another thing I did on the Sega Multigame which might be useful-- I was able to find an area of memory that was big enough for the menu system that resided in the same place across all games (of course I only had to get 5 games to co-operate). So, the menu system could be run, and the banks could be switched simultaneously... That let me flip banks, and have my next instruction jump to the cold-start entry point of the game. (Instead of switching banks and having the menu code disappear.) > This also leaves the game-select signals available for sound hardware. > I don't think it'd be too hard to distinguish power-on and soft-reset > conditions to do this, and the hardware would just be a daughter card > plugged in the ROM sockets with an extra wire to pick up the reset > from somewhere. Sound feasible? Zonn? Anyone? > Sounds feasible from what I know. (Which isn't much about Cinemat, but I like the premise. ;-) > BTW, I've started writing a character generator for a menu program. I > plan > to test it out on our emulator later this week, but I still need > someone to > send ROM images to for testing on the real thing. Preferably someone > who > can burn chips and test relatively quickly. > FWIW, I have a DOS (and pretty much a Windows) based vector graphics editor running for making game graphics, fonts, whatever. Just a matter of adding an "export" routine to format the data for a particular hardware platform. Be happy to add a Cinemat format if you like. I can also test your Cinemat code on real hardware now too, if you like... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 16 13:09:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:08:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803162108.QAA16263@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:08:35 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 16, 98 11:15:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > > Now I remember what I was thinking for switching games. Since a > > multigame > > will need a daughter card for ROMs, I figured a game-select latch > > could > > sit on the same card with the following things happening: > > > > 1) power-up resets it to game 0 - the menu > > 2) one address line causes a second register to load i.e. if A12 goes > > high, > > the value in A0-A3 gets loaded into this second latch. > > 3) when the person "selects" a game, the menu program stops reseting > > the > > watchdog - causeing a "soft" reset which also loads the second > > register > > into the game-select register. > > > Is A12 basically unused in all games? (I wonder since Boxing Bugs has a > big EPROM daughtercard-- but I don't know much about Cinemat hardware.) Actually I meant A11. There is nothing unused on the Cinematronics platform. Everything is 12bits and they bank switch to get a more than 4K of ROM. The bank switch is done with a Jump instruction since there is only one active bank at a time. RAM sits on a separate (internal) bus and is of no use here. What I meant was there would be *2* latches. If a game set the value in one it wouldn't matter, because it only gets copied to the other (the real game select) by a watchdog-fired reset. I *THINK* this is valid - i.e. no games let the watchdog go under normal circumstances. > For the Sega Multigame I just mapped a new I/O address and hang the bank > select latches off of that. Even if you don't have the ability to > memory map stuff directly, you can still use the address-line only > scheme, but it might be wise to use a GAL and have a little state > machine that handles the latch. (So something like address bus= > %101010101010 followed by %01010101xxxx results in xxxx being latched. > The odds of getting &AAA followed by &55x in "real" code seems pretty > small.) Good idea, but I think the odds of getting a watchdog reset from game code fairly low. OTOH, if the GAL could switch games when the program jumps back to zero it would save the trouble of running the reset line... > Another thing I did on the Sega Multigame which might be useful-- I was > able to find an area of memory that was big enough for the menu system Unused space? Across all games? And standardized text display so the menu program can be tiny... You're dreaming ;-) > FWIW, I have a DOS (and pretty much a Windows) based vector graphics > editor running for making game graphics, fonts, whatever. Just a matter > of adding an "export" routine to format the data for a particular > hardware platform. Be happy to add a Cinemat format if you like. I was going to roll my own tonight. I'll make the character format available so people can modify the font later - as well as the string table. I'm actually going to waste space to make coding simpler since getting *anything* to work is progress at this point :-) I haven't hand assembled stuff in years... > I can also test your Cinemat code on real hardware now too, if you > like... Thanks, I'll send it when I've tested it under emulation. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 16 18:48:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:47:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 16 Mar 1998 12:39 CST To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "Cinematronics multigame?", vectorlist@spies.com writes: > > Now I remember what I was thinking for switching games. Since a multigame > will need a daughter card for ROMs, I figured a game-select latch could > sit on the same card with the following things happening: > > 1) power-up resets it to game 0 - the menu > 2) one address line causes a second register to load i.e. if A12 goes high, > the value in A0-A3 gets loaded into this second latch. > 3) when the person "selects" a game, the menu program stops reseting the > watchdog - causeing a "soft" reset which also loads the second register > into the game-select register. Sounds ok, but may be prone to race conditions where unexpected code is executed. On my board I use the JPP instruction to latch the pre-loaded bank selection register and force a "soft" reset by loading the program counter with zero. > This also leaves the game-select signals available for sound hardware. Yes, it also leaves them available for per/game dip switch settings. > I don't think it'd be too hard to distinguish power-on and soft-reset > conditions to do this, and the hardware would just be a daughter card > plugged in the ROM sockets with an extra wire to pick up the reset > from somewhere. Sound feasible? Zonn? Anyone? Not only is it feasible, it's already working! > BTW, I've started writing a character generator for a menu program. I plan > to test it out on our emulator later this week, but I still need someone to > send ROM images to for testing on the real thing. Preferably someone who > can burn chips and test relatively quickly. Cool, I'm using boxes and circles at the moment, characters would be nice! I can test your ROMs, just send them down, god knows I've burned enough of 'em for this particular platform! Later- Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 17 07:12:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:11:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803171511.KAA27299@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics multigame? To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:11:29 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Shostak" at Mar 16, 98 12:39:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > Cool, I'm using boxes and circles at the moment, characters would be nice! > I can test your ROMs, just send them down, god knows I've burned enough of 'em > for this particular platform! Mark, send me you e-mail address so I can get images to you. Also, tell me what sequence of instructions to use to select and start a game with your existing hardware. I'll try to send a fully functional menu system. I've got a font set up, and I should be testing my string display routine tonight. BTW, which game are you using as a base? Armor Attack? I need to know so I use the correct inputs to select which game. The code snippet shoud be in HEX please. Zonn uses different mnemonics... Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 17 10:20:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:18:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <350EBE9A.414B@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:19:06 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Tempest controller ball bearing retrofit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Last week, I wrote about my experiment to replace the bushings in the Tempest controller with ball bearings. I installed them this weekend, and the controller works very well. It took about 15 minutes to set everything up and do all the work. All that was required was to drill out the original holes using a 3/8" bit, perfect diameter for the new bearings. I used my milling machine to do this so I could line up the holes accurately, but a drill press would work if you are careful. (If you were to drill the holes out so that they were no longer in line with each other, the shaft may not fit between the two bearings. And you'll say "DOH!") The flanged bearings dropped right in, and I was able to button up the whole assembly fairly quickly. I did a small "spin - off" just to see if my efforts were worth while. I spun both the original unmodified, teflon lubricated controller and the modified ball bearing controller as fast as I could, each 3 times and measured the amount of time it took until the thing stopped rotating. My unmodified controller spun for about 6 seconds on average, and the ball bearing controller spun for about 7 seconds on average. Both are actually very smooth. I've definately come across Tempest controllers that are rough, gritty, and noisy, and they would certainly benefit from some sort of rework. Anyway, if your controller suffers from excessive wear, install some ball bearings! I spent $14 including shipping. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 18 20:07:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:06:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:05:39 -0600 (CST) From: sickgear@ix.netcom.com To: vectorlist@spies.com Message-Id: <199831821253441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Hi and HELP! X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: sickgear@ix.netcom.com Hi All, First, let me say that I don't have much to bring to the list except for a love of vector based arcade games and a overwhelming (compulsive?) desire to collect/fix/play them. That being said, I just rescued a Cinematronics Star Castle from an op's sledgehammer/dumpster. It actually appears to be working, except for that it has no X width; there is only a line running up/down the screen w/blurry dots on it. One of these dots appears to be your ship, as it moves (only up/down) when you press the "thrust" button. You can hear the noises associated w/the different button functions, and you can also see that the ship is shooting, hear it being killed, etc. The LED on the "control panel" does not come on; I assume that it is supposed to (ala Atari vector games)? The only troubleshooting tool I have so far is a multimeter... with that in mind, where do you suggest that I start looking for the problem?? TIA, Derek sickgear@ix.netcom.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 18 20:25:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:25:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:25:05 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Hi and HELP! Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "The only troubleshooting tool I have so far is a multimeter... with that in mind, where do you suggest that I start looking for the problem??" pull down the schematics from www.spies.com/arcade/schematics, and check the horizontal deflection circuit. the good news is it doesn't sound like the HV supply is bad :-) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 19 06:25:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 06:24:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." (Ray Ghanbari) Message-Id: <199803191416.IAA14580@feynman.Mayo.EDU> Subject: Re: Hi and HELP! To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:16:34 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199831821253441@ix.netcom.com> from "sickgear@ix.netcom.com" at Mar 18, 98 10:05:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." (Ray Ghanbari) My Star Castle had the same problem when I got it. As Al mentioned, pull down the monitor schematics and replace the horizontal deflection transistors (should cost ~$8 a pop). These are the transistors that are mounted on the large heat sinks on the left side of the monitor as you look at it from the back. The transistors interface with the monitor PCB board through some molex connectors. Make sure to note orientation, use proper heat sink compound, and replace the insulator (piece of plastic between the transistor housing and the heat sink...can't remember if the deflection transistors have them or not, so it may not be there) Good news is that your board and your monitor HV works. You are actually damn close to having a working machine (congrats!) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 19 10:33:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:32:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Hi and HELP! Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:33:05 GMT Message-ID: <35146465.62034191@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199831821253441@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <199831821253441@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:05:39 -0600 (CST), sickgear@ix.netcom.com wrote: >Hi All, > >First, let me say that I don't have much to bring to the list except for= a love of vector based=20 >arcade games and a overwhelming (compulsive?) desire to collect/fix/play= them. > >That being said, I just rescued a Cinematronics Star Castle from an op's= sledgehammer/dumpster. =20 >It actually appears to be working, except for that it has no X width; = there is only a line=20 >running up/down the screen w/blurry dots on it. > >One of these dots appears to be your ship, as it moves (only up/down) = when you press the=20 >"thrust" button. You can hear the noises associated w/the different = button functions, and you=20 >can also see that the ship is shooting, hear it being killed, etc. > >The LED on the "control panel" does not come on; I assume that it is = supposed to (ala Atari=20 >vector games)? Do what everyone else says with the horizontal deflection transistors, = but just a note: By "control panel" I'm assuming you mean that 12x12 inch (or thereabouts) PCB board -- that light should flicker and go off if = everything is working correctly. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 08:39:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:39:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803201429.JAA19214@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: CineMenu update To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:29:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 16, 98 11:15:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Hey all, Just thought I'd post an update on my Cinematronics programming activity. I've got a text display program working along with all the game names and some other words. I just need to do the user input for game select. It all fits in 2K with some holes left over, so we can use A11 to load a game-select latch (barring timing problems) or another method. There may be some timing problems with the text - I might not be waiting long enough for the beam to reach the start of a word, but we won't know until it's run on real hardware. It'll be easy to fix, as there is only one place where I draw all the lines :) I'll post the rom images by monday for those who want to test it and get working on hardware. Once any display bugs are worked out, I'll post info on changing the font and the string tables so it can be customized a bit. BTW, does anyone recall if Armor Attack has the extra bank-select flipflop needed by Boxing Bugs? It'd be a bummer if that game requires a board modification. BTW2, Cinematronics programming is kind of fun, with the limited instruction set you can almost read a program in HEX. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 09:25:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:25:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: CineMenu update Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:40 GMT Message-ID: <3512a537.144176467@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803201429.JAA19214@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803201429.JAA19214@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:29:16 -0500 (EST), Paul Kahler = wrote: >Hey all, > > Just thought I'd post an update on my Cinematronics programming = activity. >I've got a text display program working along with all the game names = and >some other words. I just need to do the user input for game select. It = all >fits in 2K with some holes left over, so we can use A11 to load a = game-select >latch (barring timing problems) or another method. There may be some >timing problems with the text - I might not be waiting long enough for >the beam to reach the start of a word, but we won't know until it's run >on real hardware. It'll be easy to fix, as there is only one place where >I draw all the lines :) I'll post the rom images by monday for those who >want to test it and get working on hardware. Once any display bugs are >worked out, I'll post info on changing the font and the string tables >so it can be customized a bit. > Very Cool! > BTW, does anyone recall if Armor Attack has the extra bank-select >flipflop needed by Boxing Bugs? It'd be a bummer if that game requires >a board modification. I'm not sure what game you're referring to in the last sentence, Boxing = Bugs or Armor Attack. Armor Attack uses the same hardware as Solar Quest which = use a 16k banked address space. Boxing Bug needs 32k of banked memory and the = banking register was moved off of the main board onto a daughter board that also = held the ROMs. Armor Attack won't need any special mods (beyond what any other game will= need to run you menu), but to run Boxing Bugs some extra glue logic will have = to be added. > > BTW2, Cinematronics programming is kind of fun, with the limited >instruction set you can almost read a program in HEX. If I didn't have to work for a living I'd finish up an assembler I = started a year ago. (It was table driven so you'd be able to plug in your own = mnemonics.) ;^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 10:08:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:08:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803201808.NAA28762@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: CineMenu update To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:08:08 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <3512a537.144176467@tommy.doctord.com> from "Zonn" at Mar 20, 98 05:25:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > > BTW, does anyone recall if Armor Attack has the extra bank-select > >flipflop needed by Boxing Bugs? It'd be a bummer if that game requires > >a board modification. > > I'm not sure what game you're referring to in the last sentence, Boxing Bugs or > Armor Attack. Armor Attack uses the same hardware as Solar Quest which use a > 16k banked address space. Boxing Bug needs 32k of banked memory and the banking > register was moved off of the main board onto a daughter board that also held > the ROMs. Since upgrading an 8K game to a 16K game requires an extra chip on the main board I thought Boxing Bugs might use the leftover flip-flop for the extra address line :( It's been a while since I looked at the schematic for the boxing bugs rom board. Since BB isn't popular anyway, maybe the multigame should exclude that game - otherwise the daughter card would need the bank select and extra wires running back to the main board . OTOH if the banking is moved up there, you can put the mod on just about any revision of the board (Star Castle & RipOff come to mind). Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 10:32:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:32:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: CineMenu update Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:33:41 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day Paul (and folks), If BB used switches on the control panel and didn't have such specialized sound and color converter boards, I'd push for its inclusion into the multigame. But I think that even if you do manage to overcome the banking problem, you'll be stymied by these other obstacles. Sure a Cine->Atari translator for the monitor might get you around BB's color converter board, but what about the sound card? Doesn't it also handle D/A for the spinner? Also the number of wiring mods on the mother board (not the daughter board) are daunting. However, with this said, I do agree with Paul's OTOH comment. If you did move banking up to the daughter board (and use BB's addressing scheme), then you'd have additional flexibility with motherboards from earlier games. I'm assuming J10 would effectively be brought up onto a multigame board. Is someone planning to create a multigame PCB like Clay's Sega that would piggyback on the motherboard like BB's daughter card already does? (Looks like I must have missed that part of the discussion...) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I still think the Cine universal sound card is a better place for everyone's efforts. But who am I to say...I'm essentially whining instead of doing, eh? >---------- >From: Paul Kahler[SMTP:phkahler@Oakland.edu] >Sent: Friday, March 20, 1998 10:08 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Paul Kahler >Subject: Re: CineMenu update > >> > BTW, does anyone recall if Armor Attack has the extra bank-select >> >flipflop needed by Boxing Bugs? It'd be a bummer if that game requires >> >a board modification. >> >> I'm not sure what game you're referring to in the last sentence, Boxing >>Bugs or >> Armor Attack. Armor Attack uses the same hardware as Solar Quest which use >>a >> 16k banked address space. Boxing Bug needs 32k of banked memory and the >>banking >> register was moved off of the main board onto a daughter board that also >>held >> the ROMs. > >Since upgrading an 8K game to a 16K game requires an extra chip on the main >board I thought Boxing Bugs might use the leftover flip-flop for the extra >address line :( It's been a while since I looked at the schematic for the >boxing bugs rom board. Since BB isn't popular anyway, maybe the multigame >should exclude that game - otherwise the daughter card would need the bank >select and extra wires running back to the main board . OTOH if the >banking is moved up there, you can put the mod on just about any revision >of the board (Star Castle & RipOff come to mind). > >Thanks, >-- > ___ __ _ _ _ >| \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer >| _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? >|_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 11:07:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:06:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: CineMenu update Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:05:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Is someone planning to create a multigame PCB like > Clay's Sega that would piggyback on the motherboard like BB's daughter > card already does? (Looks like I must have missed that part of the > discussion...) > That was pretty much what my original trolling was about. Wanted to see if I should be working on hardware or if someone else already had it in the works. My impression was that nobody was really doing the hardware yet.... > ps - I still think the Cine universal sound card is a better place for > everyone's efforts. But who am I to say...I'm essentially whining > instead of doing, eh? > I'm voting for a generic sample-player board based on a cheap DSP. I'm inclined to use the Analog Devices 21xx series since they're cheap; have a $90 eval board with stereo autio in/out on it already; have a friendly assembly language; and basically make a 3-chip system (DSP, EPROM, CODEC). Just get good quality samples and let the DSP mix and play whatever is needed. The same design would work for Sega, Cinematronics, whatever... (Samples aren't the best, but if anyone was adventurous you have a 33MIP DSP at your disposal to do something better. ;-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 13:58:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: CineMenu update Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:57:32 GMT Message-ID: <3512e521.10064161@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:05:26 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >I'm voting for a generic sample-player board based on a cheap DSP. I'm >inclined to use the Analog Devices 21xx series since they're cheap; have >a $90 eval board with stereo autio in/out on it already; have a friendly >assembly language; and basically make a 3-chip system (DSP, EPROM, >CODEC). Just get good quality samples and let the DSP mix and play >whatever is needed. The same design would work for Sega, Cinematronics, >whatever... (Samples aren't the best, but if anyone was adventurous you >have a 33MIP DSP at your disposal to do something better. ;-) Hey, samples are as good as the source. If the sound board is generating= 1 khz square waves, there is nothing that says we couldn't synthesize these = waves using some simple software -- thereby remove all sampling artifacts, and = then feed that waveform to your hardware. The same could be said for any of = the sounds. Some of the sounds get pretty complex and real sampling might be the best approach. There's nothing to keep us from starting with real samples and improving = the quality with software generated samples as time and manpower allows. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 14:34:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: CineMenu update Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:33:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Hey, samples are as good as the source. If the sound board is > generating 1 khz > square waves, there is nothing that says we couldn't synthesize these > waves > using some simple software -- thereby remove all sampling artifacts, > and then > feed that waveform to your hardware. The same could be said for any > of the > sounds. > True. I think Joe was modeling the analog parts of the board in Spice to get some "first generation". > Some of the sounds get pretty complex and real sampling might be the > best > approach. > I agree. Neil Bradley has a nice digital recording studio-- I can probably get in there with him to make some really good samples. (Noise gated and pre-processed). > There's nothing to keep us from starting with real samples and > improving the > quality with software generated samples as time and manpower allows. > Exactly. I've been fairly impressed with the stuff MAME is doing, and a lot of that is just samples off actual hardware. No rule that says we can't sample at 44.1KHz 16bit, and process the hell out of the data to keep the noise floor and SNR good. The only thing that I was a little concerned about being able to just sample from real hardware was something like LFO background droning... That would have a really big loop point and the timbre might change with frequency so it might be hard to "accurately" reproduce. I was just going to start with the MAME samples for the Sega stuff and see what I can do. As long as we can get maybe 6-10 voices going (which should probably leave about 95% of the ADSP2181 free ;-) we can always make/clean up samples later. Actually, if there's much of any free DSP left we could probably run a reverb or echo effect or two for some sweetener and make it sound really cool. ;-) (Ever notice that reverb chip in the Star Wars sound board?) (Actually, even if there isn't enough DSP left, Yamaha sells a little standalone reverb processor. Basically an integrated CODEC+DSP that just does audio effects. Pretty cool.) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 20 14:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:43:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:43:45 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: CineMenu update Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "(Ever notice that reverb chip in the Star Wars sound board?) on one version of the sega sound board, there is a bucket brigade delay line and a second audio channel. it looked like they were trying to do a 'stereo spreader' for two speakers From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 21 07:26:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:25:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:24:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tempest controller ball bearing retrofit In-Reply-To: <350EBE9A.414B@an.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > Last week, I wrote about my experiment to replace the bushings in the > Tempest controller with ball bearings. I actually ment to post this a while ago. If you can't find the teflon grease people are mentioning, I've found that good old Radio Shack Color TV Tuner Cleaner and Lubricant works great -- cleans out any crap that is in there, stops the Brrrrr noise, and makes it spin longer. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 21 19:23:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:22:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tempest controller ball bearing retrofit Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:22:43 GMT Message-ID: <351483be.116220499@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:24:35 -0500 (EST), "Christopher X. Candreva" wrote: >On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > >> Last week, I wrote about my experiment to replace the bushings in the >> Tempest controller with ball bearings. =20 > >I actually ment to post this a while ago. > >If you can't find the teflon grease people are mentioning, I've found = that >good old Radio Shack Color TV Tuner Cleaner and Lubricant works great -- >cleans out any crap that is in there, stops the Brrrrr noise, and makes = it >spin longer. Radio shack is the one who carries the Teflon Grease! (Not that that is = any guarantee it'll be in stock) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 21 21:18:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:18:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803220517.XAA27515@fastlane.net> From: "Mark Shostak" To: Subject: Re: CineMenu update Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:09:42 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" > > Is someone planning to create a multigame PCB like > > Clay's Sega that would piggyback on the motherboard like BB's daughter > > card already does? (Looks like I must have missed that part of the > > discussion...) > > > That was pretty much what my original trolling was about. Wanted to see > if I should be working on hardware or if someone else already had it in > the works. My impression was that nobody was really doing the hardware > yet.... Actually Clay, I've *already* made the hardware for the Cinematronics-Multigame! It's a piggy back board, similar to the BB rom daughter card that plugs into the CPU and has enough space to fit all of the released games as well any other games anyone would care to write. I'm planning on releasing it once I'm happy with my menu. The sound board sounds like something that would be a great addition to the platform. The multigame has an aux connector for a DSP sound board, similar to the Sega multigame. I'm also going to use the DSP card to store game switch settings and high score information. If you're interested in working on it, email me and we can discuss CPU/DSP interfacing in further detail. Cheers, Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 22 06:31:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 06:30:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:29:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Zonn Subject: Re: Tempest controller ball bearing retrofit In-Reply-To: <351483be.116220499@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Zonn wrote: > Radio shack is the one who carries the Teflon Grease! (Not that that is any > guarantee it'll be in stock) Exactly -- my local shop for whatever reason doesn't stock the grease, which is why I tried the plain old tuner cleaner. ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 10:51:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:50:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803231849.MAA09470@fastlane.net> From: "Mark Shostak" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: CineMenu Code Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:46:04 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" Hi Paul, I copied the group on this because I thought some other people might be interested. > BTW, how many games can this select? (i.e. how many bits get output to > hardware) I'll probably know when I look up the rest of the opcodes... I was hoping > to be able to output a separate some day to add Space Duel to the menu and have > some hardware to switch all the video and audio... :-) The Cinematronics Multigame supports up to half a megabyte of addressable space. There is a very small MMU, which divides the space into 8k blocks. The MMU can also link groups of 2 or 4, 8k blocks to create larger 16k and 32k areas for games like AA and BB. It also translates the various paging schemes used by the Cinematronics CPU into a linear address. So the answer to your question is, the number of games depends on the size of the games. You can have: up to 64 8k games up to 32 16k games or up to 16 32k games or any combination until you use up all of the half megabyte on the card. Needless to say it easily fits all of the games. -Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 12:48:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:48:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980323144749.0072e0d0@netins.net> X-Sender: omar@netins.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:49 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: omar@netins.net Subject: Cine deflection transistors In-Reply-To: <199803231849.MAA09470@fastlane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: omar@netins.net Greetings, Does anyone have a suggested source for the Cine deflection transistors (2N5876, 2N5878)? I haven't called any suppliers yet, but a quick look in my usual catalogs has revealed: Jameco crosses one of them to an ECG284 / 2N3773 part number at $1.49 ea. MCM has the ECG284, ECG285 parts at $10.43 and $11.17 (ouch!) respectively. Mouser has the same parts and prices as MCM. Newark has neither, though I didn't look real hard. I don't know if Zanen has them in a kit, but I'm about to give them a call to find out. Any other suggestions? How about the DAC-80 or LF13331? Are they still available? Thanks, Mike Benedict From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 13:36:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:33:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cine deflection transistors Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:33:40 GMT Message-ID: <3519d344.267673881@tommy.doctord.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980323144749.0072e0d0@netins.net> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980323144749.0072e0d0@netins.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:49 -0600, omar@netins.net wrote: >Greetings, > >Does anyone have a suggested source for the Cine deflection transistors >(2N5876, 2N5878)? I haven't called any suppliers yet, but a quick look = in >my usual catalogs has revealed: The transistors used in the WG / Amplifone monitors are a slightly better= cross for the Cinematronics transistor. (A little bit more current handling = and a slightly higher breakdown voltage if I recall). They'd be your best bet, and are a slight improvement over the originals. > >Jameco crosses one of them to an ECG284 / 2N3773 part number at $1.49 = ea. > >MCM has the ECG284, ECG285 parts at $10.43 and $11.17 (ouch!) = respectively.=20 Buy a Zanen WG kit and get a bundle of them. >Mouser has the same parts and prices as MCM. > >Newark has neither, though I didn't look real hard. > >I don't know if Zanen has them in a kit, but I'm about to give them a = call >to find out. > >Any other suggestions? How about the DAC-80 or LF13331? Are they still >available? While your looking, also keep an eye out for the DAC-800. This is a = better spec'd pin for pin monolithic replacement for the DAC-80, and works fine = (or even better) as a direct replacement. In either case (DAC-80 or DAC-800)= be sure you get the voltage versions of these chips, (Must end with a "-V" = not "-I"). DigiKey claims to have 186 LF13331Ns in stock and want $7.49 a piece for = them, quantity one. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 13:42:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:40:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cine deflection transistors Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:39:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Any other suggestions? How about the DAC-80 or LF13331? Are they > still > available? > DAC-80's are kinda rare, but I think there's a non-hybrid version that's compatible (although maybe in a skinny-dip form-factor) I can't recall it off the top of my head though. The LF13331 might still be available from JDR-- in a pinch you can use a 13201 (or similar) with a couple inverters to change the NO/NC behaviors around. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:02:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:59:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:57:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Yeah, I'm still working on this, but now I've found *THE* chip to use. :-) I've decided to use the ADSP2181. (It's a DSP) Turns out it's REALLY cool for this application. Basically the DSP sits more-or-less directly on the ISA bus connected through the "Internal DMA" port. This allows the PC to get at the 80K bytes of data/program memory in the DSP. The PC can boot-strap the DSP's program memory, plus load the data memory (with vector data). The DSP is free to run its internal program (draw vectors) completely asynchronously from the PC's access to the DSP RAM. The DSP has a second external bus that connects to an EPROM (for local vector "shape" storage if the internal RAM isn't enough, or program bootstrapping) and two high-speed serial ports for connection to D/A's. There's a bunch of dedicated parallel I/O pins and an I/O bus for mapping in some color latches and whatnot. The 2181 is about 33MIPs with a 16.67MHz crystal, so it's total processing power overkill for a vector generator. Lots of "oomph" left for splines and complex stuff. ;-) So anyway-- not much game content here, but I was excited about it so I had to talk it up. *grin* -Clay P.S. The new ESB-kit design is going well. I've got a 27C010 and a 27C512 on a single daughtercard with two PALs that eliminates all the rest of the EPROMs on the CPU board. (No need for bending pins out of the EPROMs and running wires.) The card just plugs into the 6809 socket like the Sega Multigame does in the Z-80 socket. There's also a spot for a Dallas battery-backed SRAM instead of those finicky 2212 NOVRAMs. I could probably use a single 27C020, but the logic gets more comples and I've got hundred of 27C010's and 27C512's that need something to be used in. ;-) Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:07:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:04:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:04:57 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) so, do it already! what are you going to drive the z axis with? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803232229.RAA03074@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:29:50 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 23, 98 01:57:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > I've decided to use the ADSP2181. (It's a DSP) Turns out it's REALLY > cool for this application. > > Basically the DSP sits more-or-less directly on the ISA bus connected > through the "Internal DMA" port. This allows the PC to get at the 80K > bytes of data/program memory in the DSP. The PC can boot-strap the Ummm Clay... What's an ISA bus? :-) Really, I understand the idea is to use a cheapo-486 running an emulator, but you are aware that there are motherboards that have no ISA slots these days? Of course when pentiums are old, PCI chips will be cheap too and someone can do a redesign for "current old junk" at that time :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:40:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:37:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:35:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > so, do it already! what are you going to drive the z axis with? > Right now I've got three 4-bit D/A's built from common value resistors and 2N3904 transistors (one each) set to RGB-color gun levels. An external bus access is actually 24 bits wide, so I can add more bits for each color gun, or maybe use 5 or 6 bits for an overall "intensity" setting for all color guns ('ala Atari's 8-bit intensity control for Z-correction in the AVG design.) I'm not planning on including a z-blank control for the color outputs. With a 30ns instruction cycle I figure I'll have time to turn the color guns off if they need to be off... *laugh* I think as long as I have the equivalent of 8-bit color resolution that'll be good enough for starters-- subtle color variations are not the vector monitor's strong suit. That's all the more EMU and MAME use and they look pretty good. (For using new-fangled raster-display stuff anyway. ;-) I'm really liking the idea of downloading the DSP's program code from the ISA bus. In theory you could just write an "Atari DVG" driver for the DSP and load the actual display list RAM (and ROM) into the onchip DSP data RAM and have that run the display. If someone wanted to make an entirely new vector game they could make a complex-curve driver and download that to the DSP and use it instead. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:41:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:38:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:39:08 GMT Message-ID: <351ae344.271770468@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:57:57 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >Yeah, I'm still working on this, but now I've found *THE* chip to use. >:-) > >I've decided to use the ADSP2181. (It's a DSP) Turns out it's REALLY >cool for this application. > >Basically the DSP sits more-or-less directly on the ISA bus connected >through the "Internal DMA" port. This allows the PC to get at the 80K >bytes of data/program memory in the DSP. The PC can boot-strap the >DSP's program memory, plus load the data memory (with vector data). The >DSP is free to run its internal program (draw vectors) completely >asynchronously from the PC's access to the DSP RAM. =20 Sounds Cool!! Can you drive it synchronously? The Cinematronics games do not have a = vector generator, each vector is drawn in software (like the Vectrex), and at = least one game, Space War, uses software timing to redraw the center star vectors = to give it the appearance of variable intensity vectors. I'm sure a vector generator can be designed to do this, just think of how= you could use this vector generator to run a Vectrex emulator and you'll = understand what I mean. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:46:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:43:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:43:22 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) If you can make the whole thing non-dma with a local display list memory, you could use the PLX 9050 pci bridge part (yes, I know we've talked about this before :-) Actually, if you do a slave ISA board, I'll do the PCI version.. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 14:47:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:46:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Ummm Clay... What's an ISA bus? :-) Really, I understand the idea is > to > use a cheapo-486 running an emulator, but you are aware that there are > motherboards that have no ISA slots these days? > Oh, now that's a load of... ;-) Every volume-shipping OEM still has ISA slots. They may not be putting any cards in them, but they have ISA available. ISA support won't be disappearing from the motherboard chipsets until the first half of '99. Even then, there will still be PCI->ISA add-ons for motherboard designers that want to include ISA. If PCI support ever gets to be a big deal I'll probably just hide the ISA design behind a PLX or Tiger PCI to ISA bridge chip and call it even. Plus, homebrew PCI cards are a pain in the ass. Trace length limits, bus mastering, grumble, grumble... (AKA, Clay doesn't want to do it so he's going to stick his head in the sand and make an ISA card. ;-) > Of course when pentiums > are old, PCI chips will be cheap too and someone can do a redesign > for "current old junk" at that time :-) > Right-o. I'm a big fan of "do it fast, first". Otherwise nothing gets finished. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 15:08:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:08:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:07:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Sounds Cool!! > > Can you drive it synchronously? The Cinematronics games do not have a > vector > generator, each vector is drawn in software (like the Vectrex), and at > least one > game, Space War, uses software timing to redraw the center star > vectors to give > it the appearance of variable intensity vectors. > Hmmmmm. I think I see what you mean. You could probably just have the DSP sit there in a busy-loop watching for new values to appear from the PC and grab 'em as soon as they show up. The good part is that the design is effectively "soft". The hardware is just the DSP and the D/A's so you can actually change how it works long after the hardware is working... As long as the game doesn't display more than about 4000 vectors at once you could just treat data RAM as a line-list. (or whatever you can fit in about 32K bytes of RAM.) Render a "frame" into the list and let the DSP draw it. This kind-of imposes a "frame rate" on a variable-speed system (like the Vectrex... or Cinematronics?), but I suspect that pretty similar to how the emulators work? > I'm sure a vector generator can be designed to do this, just think of > how you > could use this vector generator to run a Vectrex emulator and you'll > understand > what I mean. > I'm not sure I understand your gist yet... I'm really thinking of just this as being used instead of a "draw_screen" procedure in an emulator. You rip the display to the DSP RAM instead of the VGA card RAM... I don't think that's what you mean though... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 15:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:51:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:52:03 GMT Message-ID: <351ff3c7.275997969@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:07:11 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >> Sounds Cool!! >>=20 >> Can you drive it synchronously? The Cinematronics games do not have a >> vector >> generator, each vector is drawn in software (like the Vectrex), and at >> least one >> game, Space War, uses software timing to redraw the center star >> vectors to give >> it the appearance of variable intensity vectors. >>=20 >Hmmmmm. I think I see what you mean. You could probably just have the >DSP sit there in a busy-loop watching for new values to appear from the >PC and grab 'em as soon as they show up.=20 I think that would work beautifully. >The good part is that the design is effectively "soft". The hardware is >just the DSP and the D/A's so you can actually change how it works long >after the hardware is working... As long as the game doesn't display >more than about 4000 vectors at once you could just treat data RAM as a >line-list. 4000! Geeze! I think that's plenty! I put a counter in my emulator = just to see how many vectors were being drawn per refresh. Sundance came in the = highest at 457! I'm sure 4000 vectors of any size are beyond the capabilities of even the= Sega monitor. >(or whatever you can fit in about 32K bytes of RAM.) Render >a "frame" into the list and let the DSP draw it. This kind-of imposes a >"frame rate" on a variable-speed system (like the Vectrex... or >Cinematronics?), but I suspect that pretty similar to how the emulators >work? That's how I did it, but then again the Star in my Space War emulation = does not have the variable intensity effect the real game has. I don't see a = problem with your "draw one vector at a time mode" you talked about earlier... -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 15:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:57:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:57:11 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I'm sure 4000 vectors of any size are beyond the capabilities of even the= Sega monitor." ..especially if the thing could draw circles or splines! From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 16:04:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:04:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:03:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Yep, I'm planning on talking to the IDMA port on the DSP just as a 16bit port on the ISA card. (ie, not using any DMA on the PC side.) I suppose there could be an interrupt on the ISA card to let it know when the DSP is done drawing a frame, but that could just be a memory flag in DSP RAM that the PC polls. (The IDMA port on the DSP is bidirectional.) As always, you're more than welcome to do any PCI stuff! I'm really jazzed to try this host memory access stuff, so over the next week or so I'm going to try to cable up my evaluation board to the PC and see if I can move data back and forth. My inexperience with even the basics of DSP stuff is keep progress kinda slow at the moment though. (Although I did manage to build and run some demos on the system over the weekend. DSP's have all sorts of cool stuff... Circular buffers done in hardware, zero clock reads and stores to CODECs... the mind boggles... ;-) -Clay > ---------- > From: aek[SMTP:aek] > Reply To: vectorlist@spies.com > Sent: Monday, March 23, 1998 2:43 PM > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Cc: aek > Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) > > If you can make the whole thing non-dma with a local display > list memory, you could use the PLX 9050 pci bridge part (yes, > I know we've talked about this before :-) > > Actually, if you do a slave ISA board, I'll do the PCI version.. > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 16:20:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:19:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <00c701bd56ba$79da5720$403eaccf@default> From: "Eddie" To: "Vector List" , , "Arcade List" , X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Forward Air Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:19:11 -0500 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Eddie" OK. I had heard the rumors. I even check with FA myself to make sure they shipped pins & vids. But today I went to my FA Terminal (rathole) to ship a pin and a vid and was told they wouldn't accept them. The employee then called the office and they would accept them. Then I unloaded them and proceeded to wrap and pallet them, and guess what? They then said 'I've got bad news. The home office called back and we can't accept them unless they are crated.'. Ok so then I got on the phone with the home office and spoke with Pat Fenton (OS & N Claims Department (Manager?)). We had a conversation in which he explained to me that they will only ship crated games. If others throughout the country are currently doing it they shouldn't be. He also is currently working on a stamp for every terminal that releases FA from any liability or damages from improperly shipped arcade games. If anyone wants to talk to him he can be reached at 800-496-4697. In summary, If you or someone else has shipped from your FA Terminal, keep doing it. As long as the Terminal Personnel don't call the main office you will still be able to ship. If you or anyone else hasn't shipped from the Terminal expect problems. In the closing of the conversation with Pat Fenton, he stated that this will be a company-wide policy. It should be already. His suggestion was to either 1) crate the thing with a folding crate that can be returned or 2) box it and and have foam blown into the box. Neither of which are very affordable solutions for games that just sold for $150. Oh well, now that I've had my rant.....for those that can ship by FA good, for those that can't we need to find another affordable way. I just shipped 1 game by yellow freight and the cost was over $250. The game only sold for $300. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 16:23:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:23:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: CineMenu update Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:22:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Actually Clay, I've *already* made the hardware for the > Cinematronics-Multigame! > It's a piggy back board, similar to the BB rom daughter card that > plugs into > the CPU and has enough space to fit all of the released games as well > any > other games anyone would care to write. > Well, cool. So when do we all get to buy them? :-) > I'm planning on releasing it once I'm happy with my menu. > Ah, so, when do we all get to buy them? ;-) ;-) > The sound board sounds like something that would be a great addition > to > the platform. The multigame has an aux connector for a DSP sound > board, > similar to the Sega multigame. I'm also going to use the DSP card to > store > game switch settings and high score information. If you're interested > in > working on it, email me and we can discuss CPU/DSP interfacing in > further detail. > I'm interested in it, but I also don't know much DSP at the moment. I'm thinking the DSP vector generator is a good first project since it's very "CPU" like in function (just need the DSP for speed). A single-voice ADPCM encoded sample player should be pretty simple on the ADSP2181 demo board (the include source for ADPCM)-- expanding it to N voices would be the interesting part. I'm just running out of time in the day right now. (Need to get the ESB Rev. 3 stuff out of the way.) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 23 17:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:12:26 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <00fd01bd56c1$fbe975a0$403eaccf@default> From: "Eddie" To: "Vector List" , , "Arcade List" , X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Subject: Re: Forward Air Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:12:56 -0500 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Eddie" I really meant to mention this: I went to the Richmond VA Forward Air Terminal. BTW, their hours are 8AM - 1PM and 4PM to 10PM. I got there at 2PM. They kinda neglected to tell us they were closed. They said no one would be there to help us between 1 and 4. We assumed they meant unloading, palleting etc. He could have said they were closed. Doh! From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 01:02:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:01:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351774A4.3059@istar.ca> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:53:56 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cine deflection transistors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Clay Cowgill wrote: > > > Any other suggestions? How about the DAC-80 or LF13331? Are they > > still > > available? > > > DAC-80's are kinda rare, but I think there's a non-hybrid version that's > compatible (although maybe in a skinny-dip form-factor) I can't recall > it off the top of my head though. The LF13331 might still be available > from JDR-- in a pinch you can use a 13201 (or similar) with a couple > inverters to change the NO/NC behaviors around. > > -Clay I have a bunch of the LF13331's as well as a few DAC80's...offers? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 13:08:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:07:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: ISA vector generator card... Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hi all, Wanted to bounce a couple ideas off you techy-types. I have a decision to make for how to hook the ISA bus up to the IDMA port on the DSP. I've decided to I/O map it, since that should be the least-likely to hose any other PC functions. (I don't really want to steal memory addresses to memory map it...) Anyway, I can either hook the thing up as a 16-bit ISA card and directly write to the IDMA port 16 bits at a time, or... I can hook up an 8255 PIA to an 8-bit ISA port and use the 24 lines of I/O on the 8255 to make a 16 bit bus + control lines and load the DSP that way. Direct to the ISA bus would be the fastest way to transfer data. With an 8MHz bus clock, ISA can move about 3.2Mbytes/sec with I/O. That means it would take about 9.7ms to load all 16Kwords of DSP RAM. Since very few applications would need to re-load ALL of the vector RAM every frame this is probably plenty fast. (Like I said, that's about 4000 vectors, and the only thing that I think comes close is the Death Star explosion in Star Wars-- NeilB said that was about 3-4K vectors. ? Been a while, I might be remembering that incorrectly.) The downside is that it's a 16-bit ISA card (which isn't really all that bad). Now if I just made an interface out of an 8255 PIA on an 8-bit bus, that would really cut the throughput down-- maybe take ~70ms to load all of DSP RAM. (That's like 14 frames per second, but only if you're re-writing ALL the RAM. If a "real" game uses maybe 25% of that, that's about 18ms to reload everything) The upside to the 8255 PIA approach is that anything that can talk to the 8255 could be a "host" to the vector generator. I'm not sure what this buys us though... Any suggestions? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 13:37:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:37:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803242137.QAA12437@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: CineMenu software available to test To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:37:52 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 24, 98 01:06:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Hi all, I've completed a first run at the Cinematronics menu program and put it on the web for you guys to try (Mark & Clay in particular). It's currently using Marks method to do game selection (I think) which sends data to the game-select hardware through the Display connector. I also include documentation which gives (among other things) the 2 bytes that need to be changed to send the data on the ROM address bus as I described - I still like this because it doesn't require a connection to the display outputs, but whatever works and makes for a simple off the shelf solution that can be hooked up quick and easy if fine with me :-) grab it: http://www.oakland.edu/~phkahler/cinemenu/ Netscape seems to open the binary files as text unless you right-click and save them. Please let me know how (or if) this thing works. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 16:45:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:45:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: PC Vector generator card... (and ESB update) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:44:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > >Hmmmmm. I think I see what you mean. You could probably just have > the > >DSP sit there in a busy-loop watching for new values to appear from > the > >PC and grab 'em as soon as they show up. > > I think that would work beautifully. > Ahhh, good, 'cause I think that's the first one I'll try. It'll actually work as-is on the demo board. I'll just use the left channel on the CODEC as the X channel and the right one as the Y. Might not have enough bandwidth for full speed operation though... > >The good part is that the design is effectively "soft". The hardware > is > >just the DSP and the D/A's so you can actually change how it works > long > >after the hardware is working... As long as the game doesn't display > >more than about 4000 vectors at once you could just treat data RAM as > a > >line-list. > > 4000! Geeze! I think that's plenty! I put a counter in my emulator > just to > see how many vectors were being drawn per refresh. Sundance came in > the highest > at 457! > > I'm sure 4000 vectors of any size are beyond the capabilities of even > the Sega > monitor. > The only reason 4000 sticks in my mind is that I think that number came from Neil when he was working on Star Wars. Something about the death star explosion causing him some grief in EMU at first 'cause he wasn't expecting the sheer number of vectors. Maybe he was speaking figuratively though... I suppose it's possible to figure out-- Star Wars has 6K words of VRAM, no? What's the fewest number of bytes for a vector in Atari Analog Vector Generator-speak? (Where's C3PO when you need him...) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 17:04:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:04:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:02:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill ...well, sorta. ;-) http://www.rtsys.com/rt02003.htm Has basically what I've been talking about. (an ADSP-2181 I/O mapped into a PC ISA slot.) They have a connector for hooking up CODECs for two-channel audio. I was going to buy one until I saw that the cards are $500. :-( Too rich for my blood. I should be able to do one for 1/4th that much, maybe less... It turns out that Eric Crabill (haven't heard from him in a LONG time) did kinda-sort the same thing a couple years back in school. He used an ADSP-2111 and a couple 16-bit D/A's hooked up to an Amiga. (The 2111 has a pre-cursor of the 2181's IDMA port on it.) Eric sent me his source code for drawing lines (which he got from an older Analog Devices book) so the project just got simpler. ;-) I currently like the AD7249 D/A for the output stage. Dual Voltage output, 12-bit serial, glueless interface to the DSP. Kinda spendy ($18 singles), but I'm in "screw the price, make it *DO* something" mode now... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 18:41:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:41:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:40:27 -0600 (CST) From: sickgear@ix.netcom.com To: vectorlist@spies.com Message-Id: <1998324193735341@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: sickgear@ix.netcom.com Hi all, After suggestions from a few of you last time, I got my Star Castle semi-working. You can now see what's going on full-screen (yay! I have at least partial X-deflection) but it still is in kind of a "dot-to-dot" form... you see dots at the vertices of the objects (your ship, the cannon, etc) but no lines are being drawn. I've replaced the LF13331 and it didn't help. The one thing that I've noticed is that the "x line length" trim pot on the deflection board does nothing (the x-deflection power transistors have both been replaced as well, as has the LF351 as it looked dubious). So, what I'd like (pretty please!) are: 1. suggestions (greatly appreciated :-) and/or 2. A Star Castle deflection board schematic, which is probably on spies but I can't find it... Thanks, Derek sickgear@Ix.netcom.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 19:05:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:05:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Danger wil Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:04:08 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Danger wil Well, When I was fixing my Rip Off, I used a Solar Quest board. There was a jumper that said var/norm. It was set for the variable intensity monitor and displayed the exact symptom that you have described. Perhaps someone swapped in a differnt board at some point. Anyways its something to check. Good Luck, Bill From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 24 21:16:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:15:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:15:45 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I don't have my Star Castle manual here, but I have Armor Attack, which uses the same monitor. It sure sounds like the 'integration' cap is open From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 09:00:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:59:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:58:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill ...and to add one more theory to the pile. My Space Wars had the same symptom. Something around the 7406 on the monitor board was buggered up. I never did find it, but when I lifted the pin on one of the 7406 inputs the problem went away. (I think their equivalent of a "spot killer" was turned on for some reason. Seems like it monitored the voltage supplies.) Something else for you to look at... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 09:27:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:27:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:27:00 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I scanned in the low voltage power supply and keltron monitor schematics from Armor Attack. They'll be on the schematics page in a few minutes.. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 09:57:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:57:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:57:44 GMT Message-ID: <351944b6.58746537@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:02:56 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >...well, sorta. ;-) > >http://www.rtsys.com/rt02003.htm > >Has basically what I've been talking about. (an ADSP-2181 I/O mapped >into a PC ISA slot.) They have a connector for hooking up CODECs for >two-channel audio. I was going to buy one until I saw that the cards >are $500. :-( Too rich for my blood. I should be able to do one for >1/4th that much, maybe less... > >It turns out that Eric Crabill (haven't heard from him in a LONG time) >did kinda-sort the same thing a couple years back in school. He used an >ADSP-2111 and a couple 16-bit D/A's hooked up to an Amiga. (The 2111 >has a pre-cursor of the 2181's IDMA port on it.) Eric sent me his source >code for drawing lines (which he got from an older Analog Devices book) >so the project just got simpler. ;-) > >I currently like the AD7249 D/A for the output stage. Dual Voltage >output, 12-bit serial, glueless interface to the DSP. Kinda spendy ($18 >singles), but I'm in "screw the price, make it *DO* something" mode >now... And the serial update is fast enough? I remember looking at serial D/A = and for a 6mhz update needed for an asteroids speed display (all from memory -- = maybe it was 3mhz?) for a dual channel 12 bit port you needed a 144mhz data clock = going into the thing. Does the AD7249 really operate that fast? Or am I = missing something -- which could easily be the case... -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 11:00:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:59:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:58:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > And the serial update is fast enough? I remember looking at serial > D/A and for > a 6mhz update needed for an asteroids speed display (all from memory > -- maybe it > was 3mhz?) for a dual channel 12 bit port you needed a 144mhz data > clock going > into the thing. Does the AD7249 really operate that fast? Or am I > missing > something -- which could easily be the case... > Hmmmm, good point. The serial update rate is 2MHz, but that only gives you a 125KHz DAC update rate. The ADSP-2181 looks like it'll probably max out at about 1.25MHz for serial update though (so about 600KHz for Dual DACs...). Huh. Might have to go with parallel DACs. :-/ No big deal, serial is cool on the DSP 'cause it hardware updates and takes no clock cycles to load the DACs. But, there will probably be some spare DSP MIPs left anyway, so memory-mapping some DACs shouldn't hurt. Must fast DACs will probably work with 0-wait states anyway. How did you calculate the speed required for the DACs for your Asteroids example? Off the top of my head I'd say: Resolution of "screen" = 1024x1024 (10 bits each direction significant) Max vectors = 2000 (decided by wild-ass-guess) Average Vector length = 100 clocks (about 1.5 inches on a 19" screen-- seems generous) Update Speed = 60Hz (16.67ms per frame) so... 2000 * 100 = 200,000 clocks total 16.67ms / 200,000 = 83ns per update ... ~12Mhz? So that's about 2.5 DSP instructions per pixel, which if you need to update two DACs is probably pretty tight. I could go to the 40MIP part, or we can say that the above is "worst case" for 60Hz, and if you push it harder you'll just drop frame rate a little... Whatcha think? -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 11:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:14:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Message-Id: <199803251851.MAA28140@sijer.Mayo.EDU> Subject: Re: Hmm.... mo StarCastle problems... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:51:14 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 25, 98 08:58:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) > My Space Wars had the same symptom. Something around the 7406 on the > monitor board was buggered up. I never did find it, but when I lifted > the pin on one of the 7406 inputs the problem went away. (I think their > equivalent of a "spot killer" was turned on for some reason. Seems like > it monitored the voltage supplies.) Had same problem on the one I'm working on (Ray's).... Turned out to be a shorted tantalum cap. Symptoms: You can hear the X and Y drivers on the deflection yoke. No high freq whine and no high voltage. No picture on tube at all (obviously, with no HV). Blows the 0.5A fuse on the power supply (I didn't notice this at first). If the 0.5A fuse blows, you *know* you have a spot killer problem. That's the only thing the line from the PS feeds (unless I missed something). I turned to brute force of checking each component along the spot killer circuit (aren't that many). The shorted cap had no external signs of problems (even though one near it had literally blown the top off). (Note: I'm talking about the 2.2uf tantalums they use around all the voltage regulators...) Until I noticed the blown fuse, I was totally barking up the wrong tree (testing the flyback, changing the transistor that drives the flyback, checking diodes coming off the flyback...). Just my $0.02... --- Cris ----------------------------------------------------------- Cristopher J. Rhea Mayo Foundation Research Computing Facility Guggenheim 1001B crhea@Mayo.EDU Rochester, MN 55905 Fax: (507) 266-4486 (507) 284-0587 ----------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 12:09:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:09:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980325140828.006abe68@netins.net> X-Sender: omar@netins.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:08:28 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: omar@netins.net Subject: Cine deflection transistors - update In-Reply-To: <3519d344.267673881@tommy.doctord.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980323144749.0072e0d0@netins.net> <3.0.3.32.19980323144749.0072e0d0@netins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: omar@netins.net Zanen located the transistors for me (quite nice of him) at Consolidated Electronics (800-543-3568). The 2N5876 sells for $2.25 and the 2N5878 sells for $2.79, qty 1. They have a $25.00 minimum order so I ordered six of each which came to $30.24. If I'm lucky, that will be the last parts I need to have a Rip Off up and running. Mike Benedict From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 12:20:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:20:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:20:32 GMT Message-ID: <351964ca.3102978@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:58:42 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >How did you calculate the speed required for the DACs for your Asteroids >example? > >Off the top of my head I'd say: > > Resolution of "screen" =3D 1024x1024 (10 bits each direction >significant) > Max vectors =3D 2000 (decided by wild-ass-guess) > Average Vector length =3D 100 clocks (about 1.5 inches on a 19" >screen-- seems generous) > Update Speed =3D 60Hz (16.67ms per frame) >so... > 2000 * 100 =3D 200,000 clocks total > 16.67ms / 200,000 =3D 83ns per update ... > ~12Mhz? I didn't worry about the max number of vectors, refresh rate, etc. I = looked at it from the point of view of the monitor. I can't remember the slew rate= off the top of my head, but I took the slew rate in in/sec, used displayable = screen size in the horizontal direction (15 inches I think), divided by 1024, = etc. and ended up with 6.xx mhz. I then looked at the clock going into the DACs = on an asteroids and saw a 6 mhz clock. > >So that's about 2.5 DSP instructions per pixel, which if you need to >update two DACs is probably pretty tight. I could go to the 40MIP part, >or we can say that the above is "worst case" for 60Hz, and if you push >it harder you'll just drop frame rate a little... >Whatcha think? I'm pretty sure it's a 6mhz update giving you 5 instructions per update. This is the same problem I had with using software. I calculated that I = would be able to run around 20 instruction per update in the yet to be released= 50mhz PIC clone and it looked like I could write a line draw routine that would= fit... -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 12:32:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:32:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D1CDD05@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: BU406D specs Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:31:00 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (Comforce/RhoTech)" I found a PDF on the SGS Thompson website with the full specs. Including the internal schematic. http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/5359.pdf Thought there might be a couple of people interested. David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 13:05:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:05:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:04:08 -0500 (EST) From: Mitchell Rohde To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Zonn Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... In-Reply-To: <351944b6.58746537@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mitchell Rohde Look, I've only been following this discussion in a very cursory manner, but there is NO WAY you need 144 MHz anything to generate the vector stuff for one of these games. Consider: the game boards have roughly 10 MHz clocks... these boards use D/As.. and slow-ass ram, etc etc... so I guess I better read these designs being flung around a little closer because that 144 MHz rate is ridiculous! Just spouting off, Mitch On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Zonn wrote: > On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:02:56 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: > > >...well, sorta. ;-) > > > >http://www.rtsys.com/rt02003.htm > > > >Has basically what I've been talking about. (an ADSP-2181 I/O mapped > >into a PC ISA slot.) They have a connector for hooking up CODECs for > >two-channel audio. I was going to buy one until I saw that the cards > >are $500. :-( Too rich for my blood. I should be able to do one for > >1/4th that much, maybe less... > > > >It turns out that Eric Crabill (haven't heard from him in a LONG time) > >did kinda-sort the same thing a couple years back in school. He used an > >ADSP-2111 and a couple 16-bit D/A's hooked up to an Amiga. (The 2111 > >has a pre-cursor of the 2181's IDMA port on it.) Eric sent me his source > >code for drawing lines (which he got from an older Analog Devices book) > >so the project just got simpler. ;-) > > > >I currently like the AD7249 D/A for the output stage. Dual Voltage > >output, 12-bit serial, glueless interface to the DSP. Kinda spendy ($18 > >singles), but I'm in "screw the price, make it *DO* something" mode > >now... > > And the serial update is fast enough? I remember looking at serial D/A and for > a 6mhz update needed for an asteroids speed display (all from memory -- maybe it > was 3mhz?) for a dual channel 12 bit port you needed a 144mhz data clock going > into the thing. Does the AD7249 really operate that fast? Or am I missing > something -- which could easily be the case... > > -Zonn > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 13:09:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:09:16 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) " Look, I've only been following this discussion in a very cursory manner, but there is NO WAY you need 144 MHz anything to generate the vector stuff for one of these games." if you're talking to bit-serial DACs you do to match the step rates of the Atari digital vector generators (as Zonn said, 6MHz per step) I brought up something similar a few months ago (using serial DACS for a vector generator) and the point to point small scale deflection rate is quite fast. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 13:27:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:27:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:26:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > I didn't worry about the max number of vectors, refresh rate, etc. I > looked at > it from the point of view of the monitor. I can't remember the slew > rate off > the top of my head, but I took the slew rate in in/sec, used > displayable screen > size in the horizontal direction (15 inches I think), divided by 1024, > etc. and > ended up with 6.xx mhz. I then looked at the clock going into the > DACs on an > asteroids and saw a 6 mhz clock. > I follow you, but is that the number we really want to be figuring out? The worst-case vector slew rates would be caused by an instantaneous re-positioning of the beam cause by changing the DAC outputs in large steps (like from 0V to +fullscale output). We're only moving a few bits at a time and changing the output slowly in comparison. I looked at Asteroids on the scope once and it looked like it was using a 16ms "frame" speed. The "draw" time was a fraction of that amount. I want to say something like 6-8ms when things were actually getting drawn. Vector display signals "seem" pretty slow. (You can hear the neck chatter, look at them on a slow scope w/out problems, etc.) Something just feels kinda "fishy" about needing a super-fast system to make it work. (Well, we know that Atari's last vector design was DSP based, so something must be possible...) > This is the same problem I had with using software. I calculated that > I would > be able to run around 20 instruction per update in the yet to be > released 50mhz > PIC clone and it looked like I could write a line draw routine that > would fit... > Still should work on the DSP then 'cause loops are free and I've got a 33MHz clock rate internally. I think we're figuring something wrong though in the necessary speed. I can't explain where the error is, but it doesn't "feel" quite right. If nothing else, the AD7247A is basically just a dual-parallel version of the serial 12-bit DAC. Spendy-- $28 in singles, but that plus the DSP, plus a little glue would make an entire deflection system. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:07:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:07:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:08:06 GMT Message-ID: <351b7cc3.9240630@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:26:33 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >> I didn't worry about the max number of vectors, refresh rate, etc. I >> looked at >> it from the point of view of the monitor. I can't remember the slew >> rate off >> the top of my head, but I took the slew rate in in/sec, used >> displayable screen >> size in the horizontal direction (15 inches I think), divided by 1024, >> etc. and >> ended up with 6.xx mhz. I then looked at the clock going into the >> DACs on an >> asteroids and saw a 6 mhz clock. >>=20 >I follow you, but is that the number we really want to be figuring out? >The worst-case vector slew rates would be caused by an instantaneous >re-positioning of the beam cause by changing the DAC outputs in large >steps (like from 0V to +fullscale output). Worst case for the monitor, no difference for the generating hardware = (who care's what value we place on the DAC) >We're only moving a few bits >at a time and changing the output slowly in comparison. The speed of the updates inside a vector is constant whether we're = drawing a vector or jumping to a new one. Jumping to a new one saves us time since= we must now wait for the monitor to catch up. > >I looked at Asteroids on the scope once and it looked like it was using >a 16ms "frame" speed. The "draw" time was a fraction of that amount. I >want to say something like 6-8ms when things were actually getting >drawn.=20 > >Vector display signals "seem" pretty slow. (You can hear the neck >chatter, look at them on a slow scope w/out problems, etc.) You obviously can't here the 6mhz sample rate! And as for a scope, if = the trace was small enough, and the screen big enough you should be able to see the= same 6mhz staircase pattern you see on a 19" display. My guess is very few = scopes allow you to see this. Take a careful look at a finely focused 19" = asteroid game. It's more obvious a certain angle, but you can definitely see the = digital artifacts of the 6mhz sample rate of the DACs. Not nice and smooth like = the Cinematronics. > >Something just feels kinda "fishy" about needing a super-fast system to >make it work. (Well, we know that Atari's last vector design was DSP >based, so something must be possible...) You could do it with a 50mhz (one clock per instruction) PIC. > >> This is the same problem I had with using software. I calculated that >> I would >> be able to run around 20 instruction per update in the yet to be >> released 50mhz >> PIC clone and it looked like I could write a line draw routine that >> would fit... >>=20 >Still should work on the DSP then 'cause loops are free and I've got a >33MHz clock rate internally. At one instruction per clock it will be very close... This is why I wanted to place a design in a GAL or something, it was hard finding a processor fast enough. The thing is you don't need complex = math instruction, you need very simple instructions a *raw* speed! >I think we're figuring something wrong >though in the necessary speed. I can't explain where the error is, but >it doesn't "feel" quite right. The Asteroids schematic worked for me, that and it matched my independent calculations on how fast I would have to update. I was really shooting = for a 2048x2048 resolution, but that would of course double the update speed! = :^( The best conformation would be to place a scope directly on the DAC clock= of an Asteroids game (something I didn't do) just to make sure I'm reading the schematic properly. If the DACs are updating at a 6mhz rate, you can bet= we're going to have to do the same. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:09:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:08:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:09:13 GMT Message-ID: <351c807c.10193967@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:04:08 -0500 (EST), Mitchell Rohde = wrote: > Look, I've only been following this discussion in a very cursory = manner, >but there is NO WAY you need 144 MHz anything to generate the vector = stuff >for one of these games. Consider: the game boards have roughly 10 MHz >clocks... these boards use D/As.. and slow-ass ram, etc etc... so I = guess >I better read these designs being flung around a little closer because >that 144 MHz rate is ridiculous! =20 Wow, settle down there Mitch! Whew! Here drink this, that's better!! = ;^) ;^) What were trying to do is simulate the analog vector generators on most = games with a digital one. Take the Cinematronics for example. It doesn't take much of a system = clock to start a capacitor charging, then using circuitry similar to an = oscilloscope you watch the capacitor charge for a bit, and walla a vector. The board = electronics must only be fast enough to start and stop the vectors. They set a DAC = to a start value, then set another one (or mux the same one) to another value,= then go away for awhile while the vector is drawn. Now to do this digitally you must be able to move the trace along the = same path the charging capacitor takes. So you must now divide that trace up into = as small as pieces needed to create the appearance of a smooth line using = digital jumps. 1024 positions across a 19" monitor is the minimum that looks = decent. Even at a 1024 positions you can still see the "pixels" that make up the = line if you look carefully. Now in order to draw the lines fast enough to keep up with the number of = times the lines must be drawn in a second, to fool the eye into thinking = they're always there, we must draw them pretty fast. How fast depends on the = spec of the monitor. And for our purpose, how fast the original hardware drew = them since we must keep up with it. What it gets down to, is for us to draw a line digitally from one side of= the screen to the other we have to update the DAC 1024 times, in the same = amount of time the game has to update the DAC once (assuming the trace is already = on one side of the screen). So now we're already 1024 times faster than the Cinematronics (worst case). The DAC will have to be updated at a 6mhz = rate to keep up. And this is exactly what the original Asteroids (which is = digital) does. It used parallel input DACs so that all 20 data lines were loaded = in one 6mhz clock pulse (10 X data lines, and 10 Y). Clay was talking about using a dual serial 12 bits DAC that loaded both = DACs with a single data line, using one clock transition per bit. Assuming no overhead (start bits, stop bits, etc.) 24 bits of data would have to be = sent through the serial port per update. A 6mhz update rate multiplied by 24 = bits per update =3D Data being clock at a 144mhz rate. Real fast! > Just spouting off, No problem, sometimes the email starts flying back and forth and there is= a lot of unspoken information assumed on both parts -- since Clay and I have = already done some research into this we make a lot of assumptions, someone coming= in the middle can be completely lost. Spouting off'll keep us honest! -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:33:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:33:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3519863D.6FBF@an.hp.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:33:33 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... References: <351c807c.10193967@tommy.doctord.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig At the risk of sounding like a bone head, I'll ask this question, because now I'm really curious as to what's going on .. Zonn wrote: > > Now to do this digitally you must be able to move the trace along the same path > the charging capacitor takes. So you must now divide that trace up into as > small as pieces needed to create the appearance of a smooth line using digital > jumps. 1024 positions across a 19" monitor is the minimum that looks decent. > Even at a 1024 positions you can still see the "pixels" that make up the line if > you look carefully. > > Now in order to draw the lines fast enough to keep up with the number of times > the lines must be drawn in a second, to fool the eye into thinking they're > always there, we must draw them pretty fast. How fast depends on the spec of > the monitor. And for our purpose, how fast the original hardware drew them > since we must keep up with it. > > What it gets down to, is for us to draw a line digitally from one side of the > screen to the other we have to update the DAC 1024 times, in the same amount of > time the game has to update the DAC once (assuming the trace is already on one > side of the screen). So now we're already 1024 times faster than the > Cinematronics (worst case). The DAC will have to be updated at a 6mhz rate to > keep up. And this is exactly what the original Asteroids (which is digital) > does. It used parallel input DACs so that all 20 data lines were loaded in one > 6mhz clock pulse (10 X data lines, and 10 Y). >From which it sounds like you are saying that if I wanted to draw a vector from point (0,x) to (1023,x), the DVG must output 1024 values? I.e., this is what you mean when you said "update the DAC 1024 times" ... [to draw a full width line] I thought the whole point of a vector display is that you truly can just output end points, which are the absolute values of the coordinates that you are trying to draw. An experiment that I've done, that I've mentioned here, was that I hooked up the output of my sound card to the X and Y input of my scope. I input the vertices of a 3D cube to a program of mine that then performed 3D rotational transforms to it on demand (when I hit certain keys for instance). The program output a stereo 16 bit 44.1K wave file with the left channel holding X data and the right channel holding Y data. This small program drew my rotating cube perfectly. But the point is that I never output anything BUT the endpoints of my vectors, and thus the vectors were perfectly smooth. Are you saying that the Atari games do output a unique analog value for each pixel along the line of a vector? (And therefore, not just endpoints?) If that's the case, then what you described above makes sense to me if the purpose of this card were to be able to run a vector game emulator on the PC with a vector display ... but I thought this project of Clay's was more for "new" vector game development. In which case, why would you choose to draw vectors as you've outlined above, when you can just output end points? I certainly look forward to hearing the explanation. I love the topic since I've been interested in a project like this since I started with the hobby 3 years ago. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:40:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:40:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:40:45 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I certainly look forward to hearing the explanation." There must have been a low pass filter on the output of your DACs.. If you take the output of a voltage output DAC and hook it to the input of a scope (which has electrostatic deflection and has a very fast beam rate) you should see only the initial value and the new value.. two dots. Audio DACs on sound cards always have anti-aliasing low pass filters on them, which slowed down the slew rate of the DAC output to where you could see it on your scope. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:55:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:54:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803252255.RAA14857@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:55:04 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <351b7cc3.9240630@tommy.doctord.com> from "Zonn" at Mar 25, 98 10:08:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Zonn said: > 6mhz staircase pattern you see on a 19" display. My guess is very few scopes > allow you to see this. Take a careful look at a finely focused 19" asteroid > game. It's more obvious a certain angle, but you can definitely see the digital > artifacts of the 6mhz sample rate of the DACs. Not nice and smooth like the > Cinematronics. I've noticed the crappy vectors on asteroids too. Makes me wonder why anyone want's to make a DVG at all when a couple analog switches, resistors, and caps will make a perfectly good AVG that could even use serial DACs. Of course you'd want Cinematronics-style AVG since emulated Atari games could use it, but emulated Cinegames may have bad stability problems if you tried to use the Atari AVG (Atari AVG requires you to go to 0,0 every so often or the integrator error will accumulate - Cinegames don't). Just me yappin' BTW, anyone tried the menu program yet (yes, I'm impatient :) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 14:59:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:59:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:59:15 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Makes me wonder why anyone want's to make a DVG at all when a couple analog switches, resistors, and caps will make a perfectly good AVG that could even use serial DACs." I guess because you could do it in software :-) The other interesting thing would be using a totally digital system to measure the real small and large scale slew rates of the different monitors.. but you can do that with a function generation just as easily.. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:02:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:02:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <35198D12.2E02@an.hp.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:02:42 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Al Kossow wrote: > > "I certainly look forward to hearing the explanation." > > There must have been a low pass filter on the output > of your DACs.. > > If you take the output of a voltage output DAC and > hook it to the input of a scope (which has electrostatic > deflection and has a very fast beam rate) you should > see only the initial value and the new value.. two > dots. > > Audio DACs on sound cards always have anti-aliasing > low pass filters on them, which slowed down the > slew rate of the DAC output to where you could see > it on your scope. Yes, the sound card has the built in filtering. I'm not familiar with "electrostatic deflection circuitry" but my scope circuitry looks pretty similar to that of a vector monitor. Anyway, if that's all it takes, then why not do the exact same to this project in order to eliminate the high MIPS requirement (add low pass filtering on the output stage)? Yes, it adds harware, but it seems to make the whole idea more realistic since the price and availability of these candidate high power DSP chips was at question earlier. So, what else am I missing? :-) Above, you mention that we'd see only the two endpoints on a very fast display. Isn't this project for a WG or Sega monitor with bandwidths in the 3-6mhz range? I.e., is it relevant that a very fast display like that described would be too fast for the project, since the hardware this is designed for would slew at the right speeds? If we wanted to make the project work with a faster display, then we would just need to tweak a parameter that caused it to increase the frame rate accordingly. (Assuming the DSP can handle the rate ... and we ever build a faster display. :-) ) Now that you have this vector generator that outputs 1/512 the data as the original(for a full width line), don't you have all this time to redraw the line some more in order to make it more visible? That's how I varied the intensity of my vectors, i.e, how often I redrew them in relation to how often I drew the others. So, where to from there? I do appreciate the lesson. Thanks for taking the time to reply! Thanks! Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:08:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:08:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803252308.SAA08041@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:08:54 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Mar 25, 98 02:40:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > "I certainly look forward to hearing the explanation." > > There must have been a low pass filter on the output > of your DACs.. > > If you take the output of a voltage output DAC and > hook it to the input of a scope (which has electrostatic > deflection and has a very fast beam rate) you should > see only the initial value and the new value.. two > dots. Yes, I did this back at OU for a project. I displayed some text on a scope - had it rotate and bounce around. I used a 86K single board with a couple of D/As and fed it points. I had to use a bunch of points for each letter because you can clearly see the discrete "dots" I never could have done enough points to look like lines - I displayed one point per interupt, somewhere in the 10's of KHz rate. His sound card certainly has some sort of filter on the output. The lines should have been brighter at the target end than the starting end. Yes? Or do sound cards use the Cinematronics style "overshoot" strategy? That would be major overkill, I think I'll start producing "high-end" audio amps ;-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:14:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:14:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:14:03 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Anyway, if that's all it takes, then why not do the exact same to this project in order to eliminate the high MIPS requirement (add low pass filtering on the output stage)?" Well, that's essentially what Paul just said. The way 'analog' vector generators work is you set a starting vector voltage, and then start charging a capacitor until you reach the ending position you want (this is a gross simplification, which doesn't take into account the non-linear charging time of a cap). A low pass filter is (again grossly simplifying) almost the same thing (a basic low pass filter is a resistor in series with the signal and a capacitor to ground) There are two main types of deflection systems used in CRT's, electrostatic and electromagnetic. Electrostatic deflection has plates that are charged which deflect the electron beam, electromagnetic deflection systems use electromagnets (deflection coils). Electrostatic deflection systems cannot deflect a beam as far as electromagnetic deflection systems, but they can change a beam position very quickly, since they don't act as current storage devices the way that inductors behave. again.. this is a gross simplification of the principles involved. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:23:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:22:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > I've noticed the crappy vectors on asteroids too. Makes me wonder why > anyone > want's to make a DVG at all when a couple analog switches, resistors, > and > caps will make a perfectly good AVG that could even use serial DACs. > Of course you'd want Cinematronics-style AVG since emulated Atari > games > could use it, but emulated Cinegames may have bad stability problems > if > you tried to use the Atari AVG (Atari AVG requires you to go to 0,0 > every > so often or the integrator error will accumulate - Cinegames don't). > The AVG is kinda neat I must admit. Zonn will argue that the endpoints of lines don't match up exactly. ;-) My original idea was to use a PIC microcontroller as the vector-generator state-machine and have it control the timing and control signals for an Atari-like AVG. BUT... the alure of being able to do pin-cushion correction and complex curves in DSP software has its appeal too. Plus, I can work on DSP stuff at work and have it be pretty job related. ;-) > Just me yappin' > > BTW, anyone tried the menu program yet (yes, I'm impatient :) > I put it on floppy last night and forgot the disk in my machine when I left. :-( I made sure I have it with me now though. I'll try to fire it up tonight! -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:26:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:26:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:26:49 GMT Message-ID: <351d8d16.13419800@tommy.doctord.com> References: <351c807c.10193967@tommy.doctord.com> <3519863D.6FBF@an.hp.com> In-Reply-To: <3519863D.6FBF@an.hp.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:33:33 -0500, Joel Rosenzweig = wrote: >At the risk of sounding like a bone head, I'll ask this question, >because now I'm really curious as to what's going on ..=20 > >Zonn wrote: [snip zonn dribble] >=20 >From which it sounds like you are saying that if I wanted to draw a >vector from point (0,x) to (1023,x), the DVG must output 1024 values? >I.e., this is what you mean when you said "update the DAC 1024 times" >... [to draw a full width line]=20 > >I thought the whole point of a vector display is that you truly can just >output end points, which are the absolute values of the coordinates that >you are trying to draw. As far as software is concerned that's the case, that's what gave vector = cards the edge in smooth moving graphics -- the software didn't have to deal = with refreshing the screen. But after the software asks for a vector to be = drawn, it's up to the hardware to decide how the vector will actually be drawn. = Using an analog system there is little more than setting up the endpoints and = letting the trace float at a fix rate between the two endpoints, this always = involves the charging of some sort of device (capacitor usually, but I suppose an inductor could work theoretically). If you're designing a digital system you must control the beam every step= of the way, very micro-management sort of thing. Analogs advantage is slower data rates, it's disadvantage is alignment. = You need high precision parts and must make a few tweaks here and there to = get things right. Even then the lines never seem to meet exactly right. Digital's advantage is since you control every position of the line, and = control exactly where it ends, there's never an alignment problem. Then end = points always meet (unless there's something wrong with the digital's "analog" = section which still exists, but is much simpler.) Also digital can emulate any analog design, the same cannot be said for = analog. >An experiment that I've done, that I've mentioned here, was that I >hooked up the output of my sound card to the X and Y input of my scope.=20 >I input the vertices of a 3D cube to a program of mine that then >performed 3D rotational transforms to it on demand (when I hit certain >keys for instance). The program output a stereo 16 bit 44.1K wave file >with the left channel holding X data and the right channel holding Y >data. This small program drew my rotating cube perfectly. But the >point is that I never output anything BUT the endpoints of my vectors, >and thus the vectors were perfectly smooth. =20 Pretty clever when you think about what is going on here. All sound = cards have a low pass filter on the output that removes the 44khz signal, and = converts the 20khz signals from square waves back to sin waves. I low pass filter = basically is a R/C (actually quite a few) circuits on the output. So what you're = doing is setting a new value, then the low pass filter must "charge" to the new = value at a, somewhat above, 20khz rate. You have a nice smooth charge from one = value to the next. Your effectively using the sound card in a way similar to how = the Cinematronics vector generator works. I don't know how the 20khz low pass filter of the sound card compares to = the R/C constants in a Cinematronics game. I would guess it to be a bit slow for= a full game. But one thing I'll bet you noticed, you *always* had to draw a = line, there's not jumping from one position to the next. You could design a = way to turn off the trace, but it will still take just as long to get to a new position. >Are you saying that the Atari games do output a unique analog value for >each pixel along the line of a vector? Well the DVG (Digital Vector Generator) in Asteroids outputs a digital = value for each position. The AVG (Analog Vector Generator -- used in mostly color = games) charged a capacitor in a controlled way to give smooth straight lines. >(And therefore, not just >endpoints?) If that's the case, then what you described above makes >sense to me if the purpose of this card were to be able to run a vector >game emulator on the PC with a vector display ... but I thought this >project of Clay's was more for "new" vector game development. In which >case, why would you choose to draw vectors as you've outlined above, >when you can just output end points? If you just draw the end points without a charging circuit of some kind = (an capacitor in the case of Atari and Cinematronics, and the capacitance = built into the low pass filter of the sound card in your case) There is nothing to = stop the endpoints from jumping directly to the new position, creating only dots = at the endpoints. This is why Al was guessing a capacitor might be open in the example of = the Star Castle only drawing end points. The advantages of a digital vector generator [I think] out weigh those of= an analog system -- if you can pull it off. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:28:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:28:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:27:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Anyway, if that's all it takes, then why not do the exact same to this > project in order to eliminate the high MIPS requirement (add low pass > filtering on the output stage)? Yes, it adds harware, but it seems to > make the whole idea more realistic since the price and availability of > these candidate high power DSP chips was at question earlier. > That *does* work, but I'm under the impression it's a little "unpredictable". If you have the color guns turned on and the beam sitting at one point (A), then "jump" the beam to another point (B), the beam will deflect to the new point as fast as the deflection amps allow it. (slew rate) Couple gotcha's: 1) the settling of the deflection amps can make the line "squiggly" at the end 2) the line might not travel in a completely straight line (a short vertical deflection will reach "point B" faster than the long horizontal deflection, so your "line" will be "L" shaped) 3) might be hard to control the brightness of the line-Clay -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:32:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:32:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:30:49 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9803251730.ZM26476@calcite> In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "RE: ISA Vector card already done..." (Mar 25, 1:26pm) References: <199803252137.QAA09208@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Why no Williams vector games? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mark Jenison Alright, enough of this "ISA" techy stuff... Does anyone have a theory as to why Williams stayed out of the vector game arena? Most all other major companies released a vector game, and considering their initial success (Asteroids, Tempest) you'd think they would have jumped on the bandwagon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:34:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:34:58 GMT Message-ID: <351e9315.14955309@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803252255.RAA14857@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803252255.RAA14857@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:55:04 -0500 (EST), Paul Kahler = wrote: >Zonn said: >> 6mhz staircase pattern you see on a 19" display. My guess is very few= scopes >> allow you to see this. Take a careful look at a finely focused 19" = asteroid >> game. It's more obvious a certain angle, but you can definitely see = the digital >> artifacts of the 6mhz sample rate of the DACs. Not nice and smooth = like the >> Cinematronics. > >I've noticed the crappy vectors on asteroids too. Makes me wonder why = anyone >want's to make a DVG at all when a couple analog switches, resistors, = and >caps will make a perfectly good AVG that could even use serial DACs.=20 >Of course you'd want Cinematronics-style AVG since emulated Atari games >could use it, but emulated Cinegames may have bad stability problems if >you tried to use the Atari AVG (Atari AVG requires you to go to 0,0 = every >so often or the integrator error will accumulate - Cinegames don't). If I were to build an analog one, the Cinematronics is the way to go. An= AVG couldn't pull off a straight forward emulation of Asteroids or most, if = not all the Cinematronics games. Still I can never get those lines to match at = all angles... I think the biggest deal about the Asteroids vectors were it problem with drawing different angles at different speed causing different brightness = at different times. A pretty easy fix if software were being used to draw = the line. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:37:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:37:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:37:46 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Why no Williams vector games? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Does anyone have a theory as to why Williams stayed out of the vector game arena?" Two guesses: 1) Williams got into the video coin-op arena pretty late (not counting TV Ping Pong..) and had hits on the raster side (Defender,Stargate, etc) 2) It doesn't seem like there were many contract game companies doing vector gams (were there any? Cine, Atari, and Sega were all in-house designs) Williams bought all of their designs (Vid Kids, etc..) ..at least that's my guess Aztarac and Omega Race are the two odd-balls (and Omega Race was a copy of Asteroids) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:41:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:41:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:41:16 GMT Message-ID: <351f952a.15488826@tommy.doctord.com> References: <35198D12.2E02@an.hp.com> In-Reply-To: <35198D12.2E02@an.hp.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:02:42 -0500, Joel Rosenzweig = wrote: >Al Kossow wrote: >>=20 >> "I certainly look forward to hearing the explanation." >>=20 >> There must have been a low pass filter on the output >> of your DACs.. >>=20 >> If you take the output of a voltage output DAC and >> hook it to the input of a scope (which has electrostatic >> deflection and has a very fast beam rate) you should >> see only the initial value and the new value.. two >> dots. >>=20 >> Audio DACs on sound cards always have anti-aliasing >> low pass filters on them, which slowed down the >> slew rate of the DAC output to where you could see >> it on your scope. > >Yes, the sound card has the built in filtering. I'm not familiar with >"electrostatic deflection circuitry" but my scope circuitry looks pretty >similar to that of a vector monitor. Scopes use charged plates to move the beam around, monitors use a yoke. Charged plates are much nicer, yokes are much cheaper. >Anyway, if that's all it takes, then why not do the exact same to this >project in order to eliminate the high MIPS requirement (add low pass >filtering on the output stage)? Yes, it adds harware, but it seems to >make the whole idea more realistic since the price and availability of >these candidate high power DSP chips was at question earlier. > >So, what else am I missing? :-) > >Above, you mention that we'd see only the two endpoints on a very fast >display. Isn't this project for a WG or Sega monitor with bandwidths in >the 3-6mhz range? Don't confuse bandwidth with slew rate, the slew rate is much slower and = not rate as a frequency. Usually as inches per microsecond. Bandwidth is high fast it can turn off and on a beam (or change from one = color to another.) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 15:46:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:46:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Why no Williams vector games? Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:47:05 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Well, if you consider Midway to be "Williams", then Omega Race would be there only game. Funny, that Mark is asking this. I was wondering the same thing a couple days ago. Maybe Kurt or some of the old timers that I've met at Williams back in 92 can enlighten us? The simplest guess would be that Eugene did fine with raster tech, and there wasn't much more going on in Williams back then except his stuff. But I'm only speculating at this point. (Hey, Mark. You're in Chicago...if Cary shows up at Rick's this weekend, ask him for me.) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I could make references to being gun shy after the Star Rider fiasco in laser, but that happened in the early to mid 80's long after the vector craze. >---------- >From: Mark Jenison[SMTP:jenison@cig.mot.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 3:30 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Mark Jenison >Subject: Why no Williams vector games? > >Alright, enough of this "ISA" techy stuff... > >Does anyone have a theory as to why Williams stayed out of the vector game >arena? Most all other major companies released a vector game, and >considering >their initial success (Asteroids, Tempest) you'd think they would have jumped >on the bandwagon. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 16:01:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:01:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:01:15 GMT Message-ID: <35209a6c.16835129@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:22:34 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: > >> I've noticed the crappy vectors on asteroids too. Makes me wonder why >> anyone >> want's to make a DVG at all when a couple analog switches, resistors, >> and >> caps will make a perfectly good AVG that could even use serial DACs.=20 >> Of course you'd want Cinematronics-style AVG since emulated Atari >> games >> could use it, but emulated Cinegames may have bad stability problems >> if >> you tried to use the Atari AVG (Atari AVG requires you to go to 0,0 >> every >> so often or the integrator error will accumulate - Cinegames don't). >>=20 >The AVG is kinda neat I must admit. Zonn will argue that the endpoints >of lines don't match up exactly. ;-)=20 No, I'd argue there's a good chance couldn't run Cinematronics games, and Asteroids, on it. ;^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 16:05:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:05:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:06:47 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" >---------- >From: zonn@zonn.com[SMTP:zonn@zonn.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 3:26 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: zonn@zonn.com >Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... > >On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:33:33 -0500, Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > >>At the risk of sounding like a bone head, I'll ask this question, >>because now I'm really curious as to what's going on .. >> >>Zonn wrote: > >If you just draw the end points without a charging circuit of some kind (an >capacitor in the case of Atari and Cinematronics, and the capacitance built >into >the low pass filter of the sound card in your case) There is nothing to stop >the >endpoints from jumping directly to the new position, creating only dots at >the >endpoints. > >This is why Al was guessing a capacitor might be open in the example of the >Star >Castle only drawing end points. Scary...but I'm actually following this. Then again, I usually can follow any topic that Zonn's explaining. He has a way of explaining these concepts in simple terms! OK, so now I see why Al suggested the capacitor for the Star Castle end point problem. I'm assuming this capacitor is on the monitor (since digital info's passed to the Cine monitor). So let me put forth another interesting problem. I have a Warrior motherboard that only displays endpoints. The interesting symptom is that everythings frozen until you hit a button. Then all those endpoints move one frame! My guess was that I had a problem with the line counter as I remember seeing this problem using one of Rick S's cabinets. Still, it doesn't explain why hitting a button causes the next frame to be displayed. Any speculation from folks? > >The advantages of a digital vector generator [I think] out weigh those of an >analog system -- if you can pull it off. Agreed...much more flexibility. I want to see curved vectors....anyone else planning to enhance their Star Castle background? 8^) 8^) 8^) > >-Zonn > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 20:53:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:53:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:52:20 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Anderson X-Sender: mayday19@u3.farm.idt.net To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Why no Williams vector games? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jeff Anderson On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Al Kossow wrote: > "Does anyone have a theory as to why Williams stayed out of the vector game > arena?" > > Two guesses: > 1) Williams got into the video coin-op arena pretty late (not counting TV Ping Pong..) > and had hits on the raster side (Defender,Stargate, etc) > 2) It doesn't seem like there were many contract game companies doing vector gams > (were there any? Cine, Atari, and Sega were all in-house designs) > Williams bought all of their designs (Vid Kids, etc..) > > ..at least that's my guess I am sure you most of you know the vid kids story, but eugene worked for willy when doing defender, and of course left and started the kids with Larry DeMar to get more money.. But he came back and did Narc, then left again and did Crusin' on his own, then ran out of money and sold the concept back to midway and he finished it up there again. what I am gettin' at is other than a couple Vid Kids games (stargate, 2084, BLaster) , Aeroboto, Moon Patrol, & Motorrace USA ALL of their designs were in-house. I just think they didn't wanna drop any money into a new hardware system for vector games. > Aztarac and Omega Race are the two odd-balls (and Omega Race was a copy of Asteroids) what about that other vector game from midway that never got past the test stage? I forgot what it was called.. Did the Japenese ever get any Vector games that never made it into the US? I guess the only Japenese game company with a vector system was SEGA, but those games were all designed in the US right? Jeff From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Mar 25 23:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:44:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351A083F.1472@istar.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:48:15 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Why no Williams vector games? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Jeff Anderson wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Al Kossow wrote: > > > "Does anyone have a theory as to why Williams stayed out of the vector game > > arena?" > > ... > Did the Japenese ever get any Vector games that never made it into the US? > I guess the only Japenese game company with a vector system was SEGA, but > those games were all designed in the US right? > > Jeff Actually there was a clone company in Japan that made a copy of Star Castle. I have one that looks like it is going back to Japan to a collector there. This uses that curious B&W XY monitor with the audio output hybred modules, I never saw one fail in the old days. The company is called HOEI and they made a coupe of their own games, one trackball game called Future Flash (that I want to set up again-someday) and Meteor (a clone Asteroids), and Mayday - a clone Defender. I don't know what happened to the company... John :-#)# ps, I have schematics for these games... -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 06:43:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:43:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803261443.JAA27106@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:43:53 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 25, 98 03:27:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > That *does* work, but I'm under the impression it's a little > "unpredictable". If you have the color guns turned on and the beam > sitting at one point (A), then "jump" the beam to another point (B), the > beam will deflect to the new point as fast as the deflection amps allow > it. (slew rate) Couple gotcha's: > 1) the settling of the deflection amps can make the line "squiggly" at > the end Probably not, but the slowing down will cause increased brightness at the end. That's why Cinematronics targets a point way beyond the real end of the vector and then stops - the speed is more constant if you only draw for a portion of the charging time. > 2) the line might not travel in a completely straight line (a short > vertical deflection will reach "point B" faster than the long horizontal > deflection, so your "line" will be "L" shaped) That'll only happen if the R/C constant for X & Y are different. Remember, an RC circuit will reach the half-way point in a fixed amount of time, so if X and Y have the same RC constant they will both reach 1/2 way to the destination at the same time (also 1/4 of the way and any other fraction). That's why the components are high tollerance, any variation will cause curved vectors and the L shape clay speaks of. This combined with the critical timing of turning the beam off (cinematronics) is probably why Zonn can't get the vectors to line up perfectly. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 07:06:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:05:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <351A6EDF.1CC9@an.hp.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:06:07 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... References: <351c807c.10193967@tommy.doctord.com> <3519863D.6FBF@an.hp.com> <351d8d16.13419800@tommy.doctord.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Zonn, Clay, Al, Paul, Thanks for taking the time to detail your explanations. It makes a lot of sense now. I look forward to seeing the progress on this project! Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 07:16:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:15:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980326091720.00a92980@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:17:21 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Misfortune... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) I thought I would share my grief with y'all... Last night I stopped by FA to pick up a Space Fury that had been waiting for me at their terminal for a couple of weeks. As I laid the game down in the truck I noticed that the monitor's plexiglass was popped out and the over- lay was a little out of whack - didn't think much of it, though. As I wheeled the beast (370 pds) into the house and took the cardboard packaging all off, my worst night- mare came true - the monitor had sheered off the plywood that holds it and had broken it's neck :( So, after my first shipping misfortune in quite a few years what have I learned? 1. FA must drop palettes pretty hard with the forklift... 2. Maybe we should add a support in the back of convert-a-cabs for the monitor. 3. I have learned how to control my anger at a young age :) Thanks for listening to me babble, Mit Matelske btw - anybody have any spare G-08 tubes? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 07:32:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:32:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:31:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: EPROM Burner doit it yourself Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" Just saw on RGVAC, someone has posted their schematic for a do it yourself EPROM burner. According to the posting, he's working on another version that will do more chips, but this might be a good thing to do some PC Board of, if anyone has the desire and ability. http://www.zws.com/products/eprom_burner.html ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 07:39:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:39:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:38:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803261538.KAA16297@westnet.com> From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: (fwd) PC EPROM burner schematics/software now up! Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,sci.electronics,aus.electronics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" Here is the posting I saw: -- forwarded message -- From: larwe@one.net.au Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,sci.electronics,aus.electronics Subject: PC EPROM burner schematics/software now up! Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:09:27 -0600 The parallel version of my EPROM reader/burner project is now fully documented at . You can download schematics, assembly instructions and software, and see photos of the prototype hardware. This version is suitable for DOS only (it works inside OS/2 DOS boxes, and in Win95/Win3.x DOS boxes, but this is not recommended). It reads and burns 2764, 27128, 27256, 27512, 27010, 27020, 27040 EPROMs and reads 831000 mask ROMs, making it very useful for the arcade collector up to vintage 1989 or so 8-) The software and hardware design are free for all to use. Any reasonably competent hobbyist can build this kit for around USD$25 in parts and a couple of hours assembly and testing time. You can bookmark that URL, because it is guaranteed not to move (and there are going to be software updates posted there quite soon). Enormous thanks to Payman Habibelahi and Steven Murray. The serial version of the burner, and the Macintosh control software, will probably be ready for prime time around about next weekend. At the same time, I will release V2.0.1 of the software, supporting Motorola S-Record and Intel HEX format files (current version supports binary dumps only). If anyone has pinouts for the larger 16-bit ROMs and EPROMs used on modern games, PLEASE EMAIL ME. V3.0 of the hardware will DEFINITELY support these larger chips (as well as flash devices, I hope, and maybe PALs/GALs if you're *really* lucky). Also, if anyone has a list of manufacturer and part codes for the A9 auto-identify protocol, please email me. My regular address is sysadm@zws.com, I just use this address -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading -- end of forwarded message -- -- ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 07:45:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:45:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:45:31 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burner doit it yourself Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I posted someone selling a assembled parallel port unit for $169 on RGVAC a few weeks ago that does do 5v 24 pin parts. I picked one up, and the guy sent me programming information, so I was going to try driving it from one of those Dolphin PCI parallel port cards in a Mac. I also built a parallel port programmer (this one assumes you have a 8 bit bi directional p port) using a single 84 pin Mach part (this is the same hardware i'm using for the 6502 'soft processor' i'm working on) Inexpensive units like these, though, will only program +5v only EPROMS (2716 > up), no bipolars, etc. The cheap ones also only have 32 pin sockets, so you can't do wide or really big parts. I'm starting to build up a big pile of (broken :-() Data I/O 29 series units from the surplus places. They claim to support 82s155's (like in Drag Race..) but I haven't found the right programming adapter yet From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 08:06:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:05:20 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Cinemenu results... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:04:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Mostly for Paul, but I don't have his address handy, so I'll just copy it to the list in case anyone else is curious. Fired up Paul's menu code on real Cinematronics hardware last night. Pretty close. What I get is a mostly blank screen with (basically): * CINEMATP across the top. The asterisk is a little funky looking-- three lines, but they don't all cross at the center. The top left of the "C" doesn't quite match up. The rest of the letters look nice. (The N and M in particular-- nice diagonal lines. Maybe I like the Cinematronics vector generator more than I thought. ;-) There is a faint line connecting the bottom of the "C" to the top right of the "E". I couldn't try any controls (my CPU seems to have input problems). -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 08:20:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:20:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:18:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > > 1) the settling of the deflection amps can make the line "squiggly" > at > > the end > > Probably not, but the slowing down will cause increased brightness > at the end. That's why Cinematronics targets a point way beyond the > real end of the vector and then stops - the speed is more constant > if you only draw for a portion of the charging time. > Well, something's causing it. :-) This is based on testing on a WG6100 monitor. This probably has more to do with the settling of my output hardware though now that I think about it, so it's probably not the monitor's fault. (I vaguely recall being able to "fix" it before on my board.) > > 2) the line might not travel in a completely straight line (a short > > vertical deflection will reach "point B" faster than the long > horizontal > > deflection, so your "line" will be "L" shaped) > > That'll only happen if the R/C constant for X & Y are different. > Remember, > an RC circuit will reach the half-way point in a fixed amount of time, > so > if X and Y have the same RC constant they will both reach 1/2 way to > the > destination at the same time (also 1/4 of the way and any other > fraction). > That's why the components are high tollerance, any variation will > cause > curved vectors and the L shape clay speaks of. This combined with the > critical timing of turning the beam off (cinematronics) is probably > why > Zonn can't get the vectors to line up perfectly. > Once again, my comment was based on direct observation while using the WG6100. I was driving the Sega G-80 hardware with the color guns hardwired "on" and jumping to new locations (seeing what the monitor would do). So this is just a new X and Y Voltage instantly appearing and seeing what the monitor "draws" to get to the new point. No other integration hardware involved other than the behavior of the deflection amps. I'd suspect it varies from monitor to monitor too... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 09:19:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:19:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:19:10 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: parallel programmer Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) here was the url for the guy in LA www.m2l.com the thing is called a EZ-EP From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 09:43:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:43:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:43:29 GMT Message-ID: <351c92a6.80390437@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:18:59 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: =20 >Once again, my comment was based on direct observation while using the >WG6100. I was driving the Sega G-80 hardware with the color guns >hardwired "on" and jumping to new locations (seeing what the monitor >would do). So this is just a new X and Y Voltage instantly appearing >and seeing what the monitor "draws" to get to the new point. No other >integration hardware involved other than the behavior of the deflection >amps. I'd suspect it varies from monitor to monitor too... Sounds like yoke inductance to me. One of the two big differences = between the G-80 and the WG that allows for faster speeds on the G-80 is fewer yoke = winds, hence less inductance. The other was higher supply voltages which allows= faster charging of the yoke inductance. Of course, lower inductance + high = voltages =3D higher currents =3D higher fire hazard. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 09:46:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:46:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Misfortune... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:47:01 GMT Message-ID: <351d942f.80782994@tommy.doctord.com> References: <3.0.32.19980326091720.00a92980@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980326091720.00a92980@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:17:21 -0600, Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit = Matelske) wrote: > >I thought I would share my grief with y'all... > >Last night I stopped by FA to pick up a Space Fury that >had been waiting for me at their terminal for a couple >of weeks. As I laid the game down in the truck I noticed >that the monitor's plexiglass was popped out and the over- >lay was a little out of whack - didn't think much of it, >though. As I wheeled the beast (370 pds) into the house >and took the cardboard packaging all off, my worst night- >mare came true - the monitor had sheered off the plywood=20 >that holds it and had broken it's neck :( > >So, after my first shipping misfortune in quite a few years >what have I learned? > >1. FA must drop palettes pretty hard with the forklift... >2. Maybe we should add a support in the back of convert-a-cabs > for the monitor. >3. I have learned how to control my anger at a young age :) > >Thanks for listening to me babble, > >Mit Matelske > >btw - anybody have any spare G-08 tubes? Man! What a drag!!! Well if it's any condolence G-08s used the same = tubes as the color WG monitors (Tempest, Space Duel, etc.) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 09:48:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:48:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:48:11 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Of course, lower inductance + high = voltages =3D higher currents =3D higher fire hazard." well, if the bozos would have designed proper current limiting and fault protection in the output stage... that's what the kludge towers on the board are for, they patched in foldback current limiting with those little paddle boards stuck into the molex connectors. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 09:53:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:53:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:53:48 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Misfortune... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Be REALLY careful packing with FA. Assume that it is going to get dropped. That's one of the reasons FA is getting weird about accepting games; people are being cheap getting the games preped for shipping, and they are getting trashed in transit. I've had five games come in now through them. The first was just a loose game with no packing at all. The bottom was chewed up by a fork lift blade. The rest have arrived on pallets with at least cardbord around them, and have arrived (mostly) in tact (the bottom was torn off of the Blockade I just got, but I suspect it was that way when it left). I don't blame FA at all for either not accepting them, or asking that they be crated. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:02:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:02:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803261802.NAA02820@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:02:27 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 26, 98 08:04:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Zonn could you offer a suggestion? Clay wrote: > Fired up Paul's menu code on real Cinematronics hardware last night. > Pretty close. > > What I get is a mostly blank screen with (basically): > > * CINEMATP > > across the top. > > The asterisk is a little funky looking-- three lines, but they don't all > cross at the center. The top left of the "C" doesn't quite match up. > The rest of the letters look nice. (The N and M in particular-- nice > diagonal lines. Maybe I like the Cinematronics vector generator more > than I thought. ;-) There is a faint line connecting the bottom of the > "C" to the top right of the "E". First of all, the correct dispay would be: * CINEMATRONICS * SELECT ARMOR ATTACK MULTIGAME I'm not sure why some of the letters would draw and others not. All I can guess is that the watchdog is causing it to reset and start over before the first word is even done (middle of the letter R). I just checked Zonn's docs on the watchdog (our emulator doesn't have it) and he says it runs at 76 Hz. I thought it was ~38Hz and I don't see how it could expire before the first word (even at 76Hz). Ya, my font is quite large but still... One other possibility is that something strange is going on with the Normalize instruction (LLT is Zonn speak). Perhaps I accidently slipped a zero-length line in the letter R by accident - That should hang the CPU and reset it. As for the asterisk, it should be 4 lines.. I was afraid I may start drawing text before the beam reached the beginning of the string, this may be a symptom. You'd know for sure if there were more text with the first letter of each string slightly messed up. > I couldn't try any controls (my CPU seems to have input problems). The game name is the only thing that changes, and since it's not being shown, you couldn't tell. Also, the controls are checked after all the text is drawn so if it's reseting it will never check them anyway. I'll have a look at my font data and the watchdog circuit tonight and try to get an update out tomorrow. If you're feeling ambitious, you can change the R to another letter - That string is at $100. Thanks, I'll try again! -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:07:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:07:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu results... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:08:52 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day, Cool! Glad you emailed this to everyone...I for one like to hear how these projects are progressing! As odd as my opinion might seem, Paul's made good progress. The experimental program that he had me run about three years ago just made sweeping curved lines across the monitor. But I suspect that was because Paul's earlier code didn't control the line length with the line counter and as such you got the full line...not small straight sections of the curve. Obviously since you are seeing letters, he's got control of line length. Nice work, Paul (and Clay)! Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I gotta get a Cine cabinet (besides Boxing Bugs) out of storage. >---------- >From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:ClayC@diamondmm.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 8:04 AM >To: 'vectorlist@spies.com' >Cc: Clay Cowgill >Subject: Cinemenu results... > >Mostly for Paul, but I don't have his address handy, so I'll just copy >it to the list in case anyone else is curious. > >Fired up Paul's menu code on real Cinematronics hardware last night. > >Pretty close. > >What I get is a mostly blank screen with (basically): > >* CINEMATP > >across the top. > >The asterisk is a little funky looking-- three lines, but they don't all >cross at the center. The top left of the "C" doesn't quite match up. >The rest of the letters look nice. (The N and M in particular-- nice >diagonal lines. Maybe I like the Cinematronics vector generator more >than I thought. ;-) There is a faint line connecting the bottom of the >"C" to the top right of the "E". > >I couldn't try any controls (my CPU seems to have input problems). > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >------------------------------------------------- >/\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. >\/ Communications Division > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:22:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:22:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:23:42 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day Paul (and folks), I'm reminded of a similar situation of trying to run Speed Freak code on a standard Cinematronics motherboard. In that case, only the "Vectorbeam" logo is displayed, and as I remember, the mother board is constantly being reset? Again, I'm suffering from vague memories (and having my collection in storage for way too long)...so I can't be sure. Did you see the LED flickering on the motherboard, Clay? (Paul's original program never turned the LED off, so that might be the case this time...then it'd be pretty hard to spot the resetting.) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Now what's this about charging $100 for strings, Paul? 8^) 8^) 8^) >---------- >From: Paul Kahler[SMTP:phkahler@Oakland.edu] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 10:02 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Paul Kahler >Subject: Re: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) > >Zonn could you offer a suggestion? > >Clay wrote: >> Fired up Paul's menu code on real Cinematronics hardware last night. >> Pretty close. >> >> What I get is a mostly blank screen with (basically): >> >> * CINEMATP >> >> across the top. >> >> The asterisk is a little funky looking-- three lines, but they don't all >> cross at the center. The top left of the "C" doesn't quite match up. >> The rest of the letters look nice. (The N and M in particular-- nice >> diagonal lines. Maybe I like the Cinematronics vector generator more >> than I thought. ;-) There is a faint line connecting the bottom of the >> "C" to the top right of the "E". > >First of all, the correct dispay would be: > >* CINEMATRONICS * > > SELECT > ARMOR ATTACK > > MULTIGAME > >I'm not sure why some of the letters would draw and others not. All I can >guess is that the watchdog is causing it to reset and start over before >the first word is even done (middle of the letter R). I just checked Zonn's >docs on the watchdog (our emulator doesn't have it) and he says it runs at >76 Hz. I thought it was ~38Hz and I don't see how it could expire before >the first word (even at 76Hz). Ya, my font is quite large but still... >One other possibility is that something strange is going on with the >Normalize instruction (LLT is Zonn speak). Perhaps I accidently slipped >a zero-length line in the letter R by accident - That should hang the >CPU and reset it. > >As for the asterisk, it should be 4 lines.. I was afraid I may start drawing >text before the beam reached the beginning of the string, this may be a >symptom. You'd know for sure if there were more text with the first letter >of each string slightly messed up. > >> I couldn't try any controls (my CPU seems to have input problems). > >The game name is the only thing that changes, and since it's not being >shown, you couldn't tell. Also, the controls are checked after all the >text is drawn so if it's reseting it will never check them anyway. > >I'll have a look at my font data and the watchdog circuit tonight and >try to get an update out tomorrow. If you're feeling ambitious, you >can change the R to another letter - That string is at $100. > >Thanks, I'll try again! >-- > ___ __ _ _ _ >| \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer >| _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? >|_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:25:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:25:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:25:48 GMT Message-ID: <351e9cd2.82994655@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:48:11 -0800 (PST), aek (Al Kossow) wrote: >"Of course, lower inductance + high =3D >voltages =3D3D >higher currents =3D3D higher fire hazard." > >well, if the bozos would have designed proper current limiting >and fault protection in the output stage... that's what the kludge >towers on the board are for, they patched in foldback current limiting >with those little paddle boards stuck into the molex connectors. My understanding was the software/hardware dweebs that designed the CPU = card was also at fault. It took them forever to initialize the X/Y position of = the G-80's trace that it spent way too long in a tweaked (trace completely to= one side) on power up. This is the worst state an X/Y monitor can be in. I = read somewhere on the net that later version of software helped (probably = moved X/Y initialization to *before* the power on test), but there were still = problems. I've verified none of this. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:27:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:27:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: EPROM Burner doit it yourself Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:28:22 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" >---------- >From: aek@plpt.com[SMTP:aek@plpt.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 7:45 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: aek@ns1.plpt.com >Subject: Re: EPROM Burner doit it yourself > >I'm starting to build up a big pile of (broken :-() >Data I/O 29 series units from the surplus places. >They claim to support 82s155's (like in Drag Race..) >but I haven't found the right programming adapter yet G'day Al, Can you educate me on the possible add-on modules for Data I/O 29s? I have the one that does standard EPROMs, but I'm wondering what's available....and which ones are really useful. Obviously, if you have some spare useful modules, I'd be interested in purchasing them. Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - By the way, someone sent me a program that supposedly mates the Data I/O to a PC. Do you want a copy? I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:28:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:28:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: EPROM Burner doit it yourself Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:29:30 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Oops...that last email went to all of you. Sorry! Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Need to be more careful as I fire of responses... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:35:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:35:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:35:26 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ISA Vector card already done... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) A while back, I had talked about putting a watchdog (a couple of analog compatitors and timer on analog monitors, or a timer watching the DAC strobe on Cinematronics montitors) which would detect the fault condition and zero the deflection amplifier inputs. There are three things that I can think of which would blow the deflection amps, which are all fixable (actually 1 and 2 are similar problems) 1) overvoltage at the deflection inputs (which is what the WG clipping circuit tries to prevent) 2) deflection voltages staying at maximum deflection (max current dissipation) too long and 3) voltage breakdown of the deflection transistors due to voltage spikes from the deflection coil ringing. It looked like there was damping circuitry in at least the G08 design to limit the bandwidth of the deflection amplifiers and since I haven't built the test rigs yet for the WG and G08 amplifiers (I actually can SEE my bench again in the garage after renting a storage space two weeks ago..) to test if case #3 can actually happen. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:37:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:37:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:37:14 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: EPROM Burner doit it yourself Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) what kind of module to you have? the UniPak(2,2B) will do bipolar parts. they had a whole separate module series for pals (with a different adapter for each vendor of pal...) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 10:45:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:45:46 GMT Message-ID: <351f9e49.83370196@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199803261802.NAA02820@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> In-Reply-To: <199803261802.NAA02820@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:02:27 -0500 (EST), Paul Kahler = wrote: >Zonn could you offer a suggestion? > >Clay wrote: >> Fired up Paul's menu code on real Cinematronics hardware last night. >> Pretty close. >>=20 >> What I get is a mostly blank screen with (basically): >>=20 >> * CINEMATP >>=20 >> across the top. >>=20 >> The asterisk is a little funky looking-- three lines, but they don't = all >> cross at the center. The top left of the "C" doesn't quite match up. >> The rest of the letters look nice. (The N and M in particular-- nice >> diagonal lines. Maybe I like the Cinematronics vector generator more >> than I thought. ;-) There is a faint line connecting the bottom of = the >> "C" to the top right of the "E". > >First of all, the correct dispay would be: > >* CINEMATRONICS * > > SELECT > ARMOR ATTACK > > MULTIGAME > >I'm not sure why some of the letters would draw and others not. All I = can >guess is that the watchdog is causing it to reset and start over before >the first word is even done (middle of the letter R). I just checked = Zonn's >docs on the watchdog (our emulator doesn't have it) and he says it runs = at >76 Hz. I thought it was ~38Hz and I don't see how it could expire before >the first word (even at 76Hz). Ok, I admit, that number is a kludge. The schematics look like 38hz, yet= to synchronize the game to realtime I had to use 76hz. I've triple checked= my timing routines (even using a stop watch). 76hz. I probably should just= get out a scope and try to figure things out, but I haven't... >Ya, my font is quite large but still... >One other possibility is that something strange is going on with the >Normalize instruction (LLT is Zonn speak). Perhaps I accidently slipped >a zero-length line in the letter R by accident - That should hang the >CPU and reset it. That would also be my guess. When you reset the watchdog timer and then wait for the tick counter do = you place two "Wait for interrupt - WAI" instructions in a row? Except for = Space War (which is a weird game software wise) most games seem to double up = this instruction. I presumed it was to get a nice 38hz refresh rate. But = maybe it's somewhere in this area that's confused me. Like the interrupt really is = 38hz but the first wait is ignored, or the first WAI instruction sets up = something for the next? The other thing I didn't understand is that it looks like two ticks of = the watchdog timer should reset the board, yet most games reset the watchdog = timer, then wait for two ticks before resetting it again. I would have guessed = the CPU board to reset on the 2nd tick, and would obviously have been wrong. So = there is definitely something about that part of the hardware I don't fully understand. All I know is that when I treat each 'wait for interrupt' instruction as a 76hz interrupt everything runs at the right speed...but = like I said if the first one is ignored for some reason... If your not doing this, try what I believe Star Castle does when it = clocks itself: Reset the watchdog Wait for interrupt Wait for interrupt Reset the watchdog And assume a 38khz refresh. The reset watchdog and the wait for = interrupt might be somehow be combined in hardware (there's a lot of flip/flops in that = part of the schematic). -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 11:00:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:59:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:58:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Did you see the LED flickering on the motherboard, Clay? (Paul's > original program never turned the LED off, so that might be the case > this time...then it'd be pretty hard to spot the resetting.) > LED looked to be on solid... If it's software controllable, have the state toggle at the end of the draw routine. We'll see if it's completing or not... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 11:36:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:35:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:36:11 GMT Message-ID: <3521ada2.87299280@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:58:41 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: > >> Did you see the LED flickering on the motherboard, Clay? (Paul's >> original program never turned the LED off, so that might be the case >> this time...then it'd be pretty hard to spot the resetting.) >>=20 >LED looked to be on solid... If it's software controllable, have the >state toggle at the end of the draw routine. We'll see if it's >completing or not... As Paul will tell you, that's a bad thing. The LED is hooked up to the = reset circuitry. When the LED is on, the CPU is in a reset state. It probably only looks solid, but instead is flickering at a very fast = rate. (If it were solid you should see nothing on the screen.) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 12:28:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:28:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980326203302.0295b4f8@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:33:02 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Cinematronics Assembler Question Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" Hi All, As I've previously posted, I've been working on an assember in C++ for the Cinematronics boards using Zonn's nmemonics. I've added support for labels and I'd like to test it out by writing a small program to draw a line on the screen. I wrote the code using Zonn's example vector draw routine and tried running it on his emulator. All I get is a blank screen. Zonn suggested I add the 'wai' instruction but that didn't work. I believe all the instructions are being assembled correctly and my problem is I'm just doing something wrong in the program. However, I'm in an open loop situation and am having trouble debugging. I'd like to get this project finished up, and I've found that in this case sometimes a second pair of eyes can spot problems that I can't see. Could one of you Cinematronics gurus please take a quick look at my listing and let me know if I'm way off base with this example program? Thanks, -Chris *** Start Of Assembly Listing *** .ORG $0 *** Set the address to 0 (0) Reassembling forward reference at line number: 18 and address: 000000 Reassembling forward reference at line number: 53 and address: 000019 Reassembling forward reference at line number: 59 and address: 000020 0000: 0000: 0000: ; Routine -- Draw Vector 0000: ; 0000: ; $4 = Start Y position of vector to be drawn 0000: ; $5 = End Y position of vector to be drawn 0000: ; $6 = Start X position of vector to be drawn 0000: ; $7 = End X position of vector to be drawn 0000: ; 0000: ; $F = Return address 0000: ; 0000: ; All addresses are located in the current bank 0000: ; and the 'P' register is left unchanged. 0000: ; 0000: ; It is assumed the intensity of the line has already 0000: ; been set using the 'OUT 6' instruction. 0000: 0000: ; Setup the labels for the arguments 0000: 48 00 ldj MainProg 0002: 58 jmp [j] .ORG $4 *** Set the address to 4 (4) 0004: StartY: .ORG $5 *** Set the address to 5 (5) 0005: EndY: .ORG $6 *** Set the address to 6 (6) 0006: StartX: .ORG $7 *** Set the address to 7 (7) 0007: EndX: 0007: 0007: 00 clr ; Dummy entry to fool this buggy assembler! 0008: 0008: 0008: 0008: ; Setup for Zonn's Vector Draw Code. Draw a diagonal 0008: ; line. 0008: 0008: 00 MainProg: clr 0009: 20 64 add #100 000b: 80 ldp #0 000c: d6 sta StartX 000d: d4 sta StartY 000e: 00 clr 000f: 20 c8 add #200 0011: d7 sta EndX 0012: d5 sta EndY 0013: 0013: 00 clr 0014: ; 0014: 21 add #1 0015: 90 out 6 0016: 0016: DrawVec: 0016: ; Start of Zonn's Vector Drawing Code. 0016: 0016: a4 lda StartY ; Get Start Y in A-reg 0017: 57 usb 0018: a6 lda StartX ; Get start X in B-reg 0019: 4b 10 ldj Loop1 ; Point to next instruction 001b: Loop1: 001b: 5a jdr [j] ; Loop until previous draw in done 001c: f0 vin ; Set starting address, reset Line Length reg 001d: 08 lda #$800 ; Setup A-reg for timing loop 001e: 20 41 add #$41 ; $841 = Loop $41 times 0020: 42 20 ldj Loop2 ; Point to next instruction 0022: Loop2: 0022: 31 sub #$1 ; Decrement timing loop counter 0023: 5f nop ; MI flag not set until next instruction 0024: 59 jmi [j] ; If A-reg still negative, loop 0025: a5 lda EndY ; Get Y end position in A-reg 0026: 74 sub StartY ; Subtract start to get length 0027: 57 usb 0028: a7 lda EndX ; Get X end position in B-reg 0029: 57 usb 002a: 76 sub StartX ; Subtract start to get length 002b: e4 llt ; Load the Line Length Timer 002c: 64 add StartY ; Add Y start to A-reg to get Y end 002d: 57 usb 002e: 66 add StartX ; Add X start to B-reg to get X end 002f: e0 vdr ; Start vector drawing 0030: e5 wai ; Waste time to fool the jdr instruction 0031: ; at the start of the loop to make sure 0031: ; the vector gets drawn 0031: 0031: 0031: ;cmp ReturnAdr ; Set I-reg to point to return address. 0031: ;ldj [i] ; Load J-reg with return address. 0031: ;jmp [j] ; Return to caller. 0031: 0031: 48 00 ldj MainProg ; Start the loop over again. 0033: 58 jmp [j] 0034: 0034: *** There are 8 parsed labels **** Label Number Label Address ---------------------------------------------- 0001 MainProg 000008 Forward LDJ Reference At: 000000 Backward LDJ Reference At: 000031 0002 StartY 000004 Backward Immediate Reference At: 00000d Backward Immediate Reference At: 000016 Backward Immediate Reference At: 000026 Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002c 0003 EndY 000005 Backward Immediate Reference At: 000012 Backward Immediate Reference At: 000025 0004 StartX 000006 Backward Immediate Reference At: 00000c Backward Immediate Reference At: 000018 Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002a Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002e 0005 EndX 000007 Backward Immediate Reference At: 000011 Backward Immediate Reference At: 000028 0006 DrawVec 000016 0007 Loop1 00001b Forward LDJ Reference At: 000019 0008 Loop2 000022 Forward LDJ Reference At: 000020 *** End Of Assembly Listing *** -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 13:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:29:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > As Paul will tell you, that's a bad thing. The LED is hooked up to > the reset > circuitry. When the LED is on, the CPU is in a reset state. > > It probably only looks solid, but instead is flickering at a very fast > rate. > (If it were solid you should see nothing on the screen.) > Ahhh. Well, yep, it's resetting then. (My Cinematronics HW knowledge is pretty weak. ;-) I'll stick it on the scope just for grins, but I think Paul's guess about having the wrong value for the leg in the "R" is the best theory at the moment. I'll patch the ROM starting at $100 for grins and see it that allows the rest of the code to run... -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 14:00:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:00:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803262200.RAA02090@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics Assembler Question To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:00:47 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980326203302.0295b4f8@heartlab.com> from "Christopher V. Moore" at Mar 26, 98 03:33:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Hey! Nice job on the assembler. I'm not sure why that program doesn't work unless one of the drawing opcodes is wrong (I don't remember them all). one VERY important point which has no impact on your program... The RAM and ROM are completely independant. You jumped over addresses 4-7 in your program presumably because that's where your endpoints go? The thing is all store & load instructions refer to RAM which has a completely independant bus :-) Only one instruction can load from ROM (we call it Lookup - Zonn calls it something else :) - it uses the 12 bit accumulator as an address into the current bank of ROM and grabs one byte and stuffs it back in the accumulator (writing 0's in the upper 4 bits). This shouldn't affect your program, but you should be aware of it :-) One other thing. Sorry if you know this, but the ROMs actually contain EVEN and ODD addresses. If you made a single rom image from the assembled program it won't work. This is why all CineRoms come in pairs. The word document that describes my menu program has a macro for splitting a single 4K chunk into the appropriate 2K chunks. BTW, I intend to provide commented source for the menu when it's done. It has a general purpose text display subroutine. It even uses some multiplys to center the game-names which can have different lengths. BTW2, Zonn seems to think you should use 2 WAI instructions in a row. I don't know how his emulator handles WAI, but ours treats WAI as a NOP unless there have been vectors drawn since the previous WAI. (got that Zonn?) Also, please change the mnemonic from WAI to FRM as that is what is used to maintain a constant frame rate by waiting for the FRAME signal. I didn't even know there was a watchdog timer for a long time :-) Another general note: about that loop that starts at about $842 and counts down until Not Minus... If you just load $042 in the accumulator and subtract 1 until EQUAL, it will be more readable. Turns out when you do an add or subtract, the operand is actually compared to the current value in the accumulator. Hence if you subtract 1 from 1 (resulting in zero) you'll set the Equal flag :-) Really, it works. Zonn's documentation seems to think the Carry flag works funny with subtraction, but it does a standard 2's complement-add. Remember NoCarry IS a Borrow and NoBorrow is the same as Carry - many processors work this way using the inverse of the carry flag as a "borrow" flag. Dunno if any of this helps, but I'll look at your code again after I check the menu stuff at home. Boy I ramble all over the map in these spontaneous responses... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 14:03:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:03:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinematronics Assembler Question Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:04:05 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day Chris (and folks), I couldn't see any obvious bugs, so I'll have to leave an debugging help to the professionals (Zonn and Paul). But I thought I should let you know that as soon as I read your email, I started thinking about my Qix project that I'd like to do on the Cine platform. And I know of at least one other person (more technically competent than I) who found your assembler "motivating" in this same way. Seems like an assembler will go along way in getting people up the learning curve. Keep up the good work! Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) >---------- >From: Christopher V. Moore[SMTP:cmoore@heartlab.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 1998 12:33 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Christopher V. Moore >Subject: Cinematronics Assembler Question > >Hi All, > >As I've previously posted, I've been working on an assember in C++ for the >Cinematronics >boards using Zonn's nmemonics. I've added support for labels and I'd like >to test it out >by writing a small program to draw a line on the screen. > >I wrote the code using Zonn's example vector draw routine and tried running >it on his >emulator. All I get is a blank screen. Zonn suggested I add the 'wai' >instruction but >that didn't work. I believe all the instructions are being assembled >correctly and my >problem is I'm just doing something wrong in the program. However, I'm in an >open loop situation and am having trouble debugging. > >I'd like to get this project finished up, and I've found that in this case >sometimes a >second pair of eyes can spot problems that I can't see. Could one of you >Cinematronics >gurus please take a quick look at my listing and let me know if I'm way off >base with >this example program? > >Thanks, >-Chris > > *** Start Of Assembly Listing *** >.ORG $0 > *** Set the address to 0 (0) >Reassembling forward reference at line number: 18 and address: 000000 >Reassembling forward reference at line number: 53 and address: 000019 >Reassembling forward reference at line number: 59 and address: 000020 >0000: >0000: >0000: ; Routine -- Draw Vector >0000: ; >0000: ; $4 = Start Y position of vector to be drawn >0000: ; $5 = End Y position of vector to be drawn >0000: ; $6 = Start X position of vector to be drawn >0000: ; $7 = End X position of vector to be drawn >0000: ; >0000: ; $F = Return address >0000: ; >0000: ; All addresses are located in the current bank >0000: ; and the 'P' register is left unchanged. >0000: ; >0000: ; It is assumed the intensity of the line has >already >0000: ; been set using the 'OUT 6' instruction. >0000: >0000: ; Setup the labels for the arguments >0000: 48 00 ldj MainProg >0002: 58 jmp [j] >.ORG $4 > *** Set the address to 4 (4) >0004: StartY: >.ORG $5 > *** Set the address to 5 (5) >0005: EndY: >.ORG $6 > *** Set the address to 6 (6) >0006: StartX: >.ORG $7 > *** Set the address to 7 (7) >0007: EndX: >0007: >0007: 00 clr ; Dummy entry to fool this buggy assembler! >0008: >0008: >0008: >0008: ; Setup for Zonn's Vector Draw Code. Draw a diagonal >0008: ; line. >0008: >0008: 00 MainProg: clr >0009: 20 64 add #100 >000b: 80 ldp #0 >000c: d6 sta StartX >000d: d4 sta StartY >000e: 00 clr >000f: 20 c8 add #200 >0011: d7 sta EndX >0012: d5 sta EndY >0013: >0013: 00 clr >0014: ; >0014: 21 add #1 >0015: 90 out 6 >0016: >0016: DrawVec: >0016: ; Start of Zonn's Vector Drawing Code. >0016: >0016: a4 lda StartY ; Get Start Y in A-reg >0017: 57 usb >0018: a6 lda StartX ; Get start X in B-reg >0019: 4b 10 ldj Loop1 ; Point to next instruction >001b: Loop1: >001b: 5a jdr [j] ; Loop until previous draw in done >001c: f0 vin ; Set starting address, reset Line Length reg >001d: 08 lda #$800 ; Setup A-reg for timing loop >001e: 20 41 add #$41 ; $841 = Loop $41 times >0020: 42 20 ldj Loop2 ; Point to next instruction >0022: Loop2: >0022: 31 sub #$1 ; Decrement timing loop counter >0023: 5f nop ; MI flag not set until next instruction >0024: 59 jmi [j] ; If A-reg still negative, loop >0025: a5 lda EndY ; Get Y end position in A-reg >0026: 74 sub StartY ; Subtract start to get length >0027: 57 usb >0028: a7 lda EndX ; Get X end position in B-reg >0029: 57 usb >002a: 76 sub StartX ; Subtract start to get length >002b: e4 llt ; Load the Line Length Timer >002c: 64 add StartY ; Add Y start to A-reg to get Y end >002d: 57 usb >002e: 66 add StartX ; Add X start to B-reg to get X end >002f: e0 vdr ; Start vector drawing >0030: e5 wai ; Waste time to fool the jdr instruction >0031: ; at the start of the loop to make sure >0031: ; the vector gets drawn >0031: >0031: >0031: ;cmp ReturnAdr ; Set I-reg to point to return address. >0031: ;ldj [i] ; Load J-reg with return address. >0031: ;jmp [j] ; Return to caller. >0031: >0031: 48 00 ldj MainProg ; Start the loop over again. >0033: 58 jmp [j] >0034: >0034: > >*** There are 8 parsed labels **** > > Label Number Label Address >---------------------------------------------- > 0001 MainProg 000008 > Forward LDJ Reference At: 000000 > Backward LDJ Reference At: 000031 > 0002 StartY 000004 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 00000d > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000016 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000026 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002c > 0003 EndY 000005 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000012 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000025 > 0004 StartX 000006 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 00000c > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000018 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002a > Backward Immediate Reference At: 00002e > 0005 EndX 000007 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000011 > Backward Immediate Reference At: 000028 > 0006 DrawVec 000016 > 0007 Loop1 00001b > Forward LDJ Reference At: 000019 > 0008 Loop2 000022 > Forward LDJ Reference At: 000020 > > *** End Of Assembly Listing *** >-- >Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer >Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 >Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com > > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 14:47:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803262247.RAA11035@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinemenu results...(Zonn?) To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:47:28 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 26, 98 01:29:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > I'll stick it on the scope just for grins, but I think Paul's guess > about having the wrong value for the leg in the "R" is the best theory > at the moment. I'll patch the ROM starting at $100 for grins and see it > that allows the rest of the code to run... I just grabbed the file here at work and wrote a word macro... (no good editor here). YEP, the R is defined as having 6 segments the 5th one being of zero length. I'd try to patch it quick so you could run it tonight, but I don't want to do a dirty job (I noticed menu.all has an extra byte?) when you're running on real hardware. I'll correct that and add a couple changes (for timing) and get it out later tonight. It strange being 3 hours ahead of you CA guys - not quite enough time to get home, make the changes, and post before you go home :-( Clay, if you change the "Cinematronics" string, it'll fail on "Armor Attack" I'd rather you save your energy and motivation for the next rev, given that I verified the problem :-) Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 15:08:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:08:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:07:59 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: GW Trading board boxes Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) they just posted this, and I was the first to call for #6.. Phone 541-726-1813 Fax 541-726-7413 website: http://www.gwtrading.com/ Box #1 $70.00 Crazy Climber Solar Warrior Asteroids Deluxe Blood Storm 2 SSV (unknown) Cloak & Dagger Stryder Box #2 $85.00 Dragon's Lair 2 system board Gottleib GV 103 part of Pacman Lethal Enforcers Rally-X Mortal Kombat 2 sound card Robocop Zaxxon Make Traxx Black Widow Box #3 $85.00 Dragons Lair control board NBA Jam sound card Rastan Pacman Crystal Castles Smash T.V. Total Carnage High Impact Mortal Kombat 2 NBA Jam Tourney Edition Box #4 $55.00 NBA Jam sound card Smash T.V. Super High Impact Rastan Dragons Lair control board NBA Jam Puzzle Bobble Mortal Kombat 2 Vanguard Karate Champ Box #5 $55.00 NBA Jam sound card Mortal Kombat 2 NBA Jam 10 Yard Fight Dragons Lair control board Mr. Do ????? Tempest Major Havoc 1/2 of Pole Position Box #6 $65.00 NBA Jam sound card Pole Position Tempest Major Havoc Omega Race NBA Jam Dragons Lair control board Capcom Bowling Black Widow Box #7 $50.00 Red Alert Major Havoc 1/2 of Omega Race Gauntlet Galaxian Gottleib????? Pound for Pound Psycho Soldiers Box#8 $30.00 Red Alert Major Havoc Volleyball Romstar????? 2 Omega Race From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 15:09:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:09:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803262308.SAA15757@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> From: "The Retrodaddy" To: Cc: "Mit Matelske" Subject: Re: Misfortune... Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:07:01 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "The Retrodaddy" > 1. FA must drop palettes pretty hard with the forklift... I helped David prep that machine, and I would have to say it was this one. > 2. Maybe we should add a support in the back of convert-a->cabs for the monitor. I know I will in the future. David felt really bad about about this, too. > 3. I have learned how to control my anger at a young age :) Must be nice. Hope it all works out. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 15:30:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:30:27 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:30:25 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Cine mailing list archive Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I've put the contects of the Cinematronics mailing list archive up on spies in the vectorlist section. I just noticed, Vectorlist is almost a year old! Haven't counted lately, but there are well over 50 subscribers now and it seems we've kept a pretty good signal to noise ratio here. Lots of stuff happened in the last year; the Zektor auction, cracking all the Sega games, multigame activities, the LV2000. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 18:06:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:06:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:05:22 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Anderson X-Sender: mayday19@u2.farm.idt.net To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Warrior sound & other stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jeff Anderson hey all, I was playing around with my Warrior lat night, I needed to put in a new speaker since the old one has been shot since I got it. I put a new 8" 8ohm speaker, and it is loud as hell. I assume there is a problem with the sound board since the last speaker was obviously blown, the surroud was totally rotted away, and somebody jammed a lot of foam behind the cone to quiet it a little! The volume is all the way down and it is still much louder than it should be. What is the value of the volume pot supposed to be?, maybe the wrong value was installed? otherwise what can I do, just stick a resistor inline with the pot? I was also playing around with my Boxing Bugs board sets, and I got one of them to come up (kinda). I set the jumper to NORM and tested it in an AA cab. The LED satys on for about a second, then goes out, but there is no display. For the split-second where the LED turn off, I can hear vector chatter, but it stops about as soon as it starts... What should I be looking for here? I dont have anything but a multimeter right now.. but I do have a manual for the game which loks mighty helpful, it is a very complete manual.. one more thing.. I got my Speed freak board working (works fine in AA), but the monitor (not the sound board, I left it unplugged) blows the+30 breaker after about 5 seconds. All the regs are putting out the corct voltage, and as long as the breaker is on, i hear chatter so I assume the deflection circuitry is working OK. If I turn off the lights in the room all I see on the screen is a HUGE white "splotch" until the breaker blows. My guess is low HV? The HV must work somewhat 'cause I hear the static, but maybe the Tripler is bad? all the diodes check out. Can I test the tripeler with a meter? big thanks in advance! Jeff Anderson From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 18:51:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:51:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Warrior sound & other stuff Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:51:34 GMT Message-ID: <351e0f72.112342863@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:05:22 -0500 (EST), Jeff Anderson = wrote: >hey all, >I was playing around with my Warrior lat night, I needed to put in a new >speaker since the old one has been shot since I got it. I put a new 8" >8ohm speaker, and it is loud as hell. I assume there is a problem with = the >sound board since the last speaker was obviously blown, the surroud was >totally rotted away, and somebody jammed a lot of foam behind the cone = to >quiet it a little! The volume is all the way down and it is still much >louder than it should be. What is the value of the volume pot supposed = to >be?, >maybe the wrong value was installed? otherwise what can I do, just stick= a >resistor inline with the pot? > >I was also playing around with my Boxing Bugs board sets, and I got one = of >them to come up (kinda). I set the jumper to NORM and tested it in an AA >cab. The LED satys on for about a second, then goes out, but there is no >display. For the split-second where the LED turn off, I can hear vector >chatter, but it stops about as soon as it starts... > >What should I be looking for here? I dont have anything but a multimeter >right now.. but I do have a manual for the game which loks mighty = helpful, >it is a very complete manual.. > >one more thing.. I got my Speed freak board working (works fine in AA), >but the monitor (not the sound board, I left it unplugged) blows >the+30 breaker after about 5 seconds. All the regs are putting out the >corct voltage, and as long as the breaker is on, i hear chatter so I >assume the deflection circuitry is working OK. If I turn off the lights = in >the room all I see on the screen is a HUGE white "splotch" until the >breaker blows. My guess is low HV? The HV must work >somewhat 'cause I hear the static, but maybe the Tripler is bad? all the >diodes check out. Can I test the tripeler with a meter? What is this your "Cinematronics/Vectorbeam rare games that I own list?" = ;^) The original speakers were rather inefficient, and the old way Cinematronics/Vectorbeam used to adjust volume only gave it a limited = range. By changing the pot you could make the volume louder, but the volume is at = minimum with the pot shorted, so changing the pot won't make it quieter. Check = out the way they connected the pot in Star Castle. Do the same and your volume = problems will go away. I haven't replaced the speaker yet on my Warrior but the volume control = is very touchy! It does need a molex connector for the control panel. Some = previous operator needed one and just cut this one off! Check all the ROM connection cables on the Boxing Bug very carefully, I = had some problems with that on one of my boardsets. The other working boardset is= in the Boxing Bug cabinet with a monitor in desperate need of a LDV2000. As far as Speed Freak, the giant blotch is most likely the trace being = projected way off to the side, which is why the circuit breakers blow. The most = common reason for this is the ribbon cable is connected upside down. If that's = not the cause, then the LF13331ND would be my second guess followed by the DAYs. = Does another CPU drive the monitor ok? If so, look at the driver ITs on the = Speed =46reak CPU. My Speed Freak needs a new steering wheel PCB which was simply missing = when I got it. Just need time to wire wrap one up. So have I helped and one up'd you at the same time? Heed hee. The = final card has yet to be played... "Now if I could just find some time to get that Sundance working, the = side art sure looks nice!" (Sorry, deep down inside I really am an asshole!) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 19:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:26:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803270326.WAA13179@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Round 2 CineMenu To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:26:19 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <351e0f72.112342863@tommy.doctord.com> from "Zonn" at Mar 27, 98 02:51:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Hey all, I've updated my Cinematronics Menu software and did the following: 1) Fixed problem with letter R 2) Verified all other letters 3) Added a MOVETO instruction to get the beam to the start of each line of text sooner (preceded by wait till done drawing NATCH) 4) Optimized a few characters so they should display better 5) Added all 14 game names plus Marks Diagnostics 6) Replaced a lot of 00s with FFs - more eprom friendly 7) Made it a .zip file this time (I think netscape changed the size before). 8) Started thinking of new game ideas :-) 9) rememberd, that assembler didn't handle OUT 6 correctly, should be $96 Anyway, It should work quite a bit better now. The games don't all output unique IDs but they each have one (first 5 are different). I'd be thrilled if I didn't have to wait til monday to hear results ;-) ;-) Clay, where can I get that dual 12-bit parallel DAC? I may have to get this stuff working in my Space Duel - I can't wait much longer to play :-) Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 19:38:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:37:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803270338.WAA21300@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Round 2 CineMenu To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:38:05 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199803270326.WAA13179@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> from "Paul Kahler" at Mar 26, 98 10:26:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Silly me, in case anyone forgot, the URL for it is: http://www.oakland.edu/~phkahler/cinemenu/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Mar 26 23:21:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:21:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351B4CFF.5D57@istar.ca> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:53:51 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Misfortune... References: <3.0.32.19980326091720.00a92980@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Mit Matelske wrote: > > I thought I would share my grief with y'all... > > Last night I stopped by FA to pick up a Space Fury that > had been waiting for me at their terminal for a couple > of weeks. As I laid the game down in the truck I noticed > that the monitor's plexiglass was popped out and the over- > lay was a little out of whack - didn't think much of it, > though. As I wheeled the beast (370 pds) into the house > and took the cardboard packaging all off, my worst night- > mare came true - the monitor had sheered off the plywood > that holds it and had broken it's neck :( > > So, after my first shipping misfortune in quite a few years > what have I learned? > > 1. FA must drop palettes pretty hard with the forklift... > 2. Maybe we should add a support in the back of convert-a-cabs > for the monitor. > 3. I have learned how to control my anger at a young age :) > > Thanks for listening to me babble, > > Mit Matelske > > btw - anybody have any spare G-08 tubes? Hi, Mit! Save the neck of the tube!!! That funny plastic socket is unique to the 19VLUP22 picture tubes used in vector monitors. You can use ANY 19VLUP22 picture tube from most of the Electrohome or WG RASTER OR XY tubes. This tube is very common! Oh, save the yoke too!!! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 03:25:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:24:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:23:58 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Anderson X-Sender: mayday19@u2.farm.idt.net To: sickgear@ix.netcom.com cc: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Warrior sound & other stuff In-Reply-To: <199832620759541@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jeff Anderson > > I've been having LOTS of trouble with my star castle, and some of what happened to you happened > to me (especially the white splotch prob). Here's what I found (I'm DEFINITELY no expert, > though)! > > >maybe the wrong value was installed? otherwise what can I do, just stick a > >resistor inline with the pot? > hmmm... it seems too obvious, but maybe a bad/dirty pot? I assume you've checked to see that it > is functioning properly; have you checked the pot value against the info on spies? yeah, I thought it was too obvious too :> but it checks out.. Zonn gave good advice.. I would check spies, but I am far away from home using a really old 486 that aint mine, and it cant read PDFs :< > No clue... sorry! BTW, where is the norm/var jumper anyway?? People keep talking about it but > I can't find it on my board... it is between the display connector and the control panel & audio board connectors at the top middle of the board. it is just a little metal leg, and 'norm' and 'var' are screened right onto the board.. earlier rev board dont have it BTW... > >somewhat 'cause I hear the static, but maybe the Tripler is bad? all the > >diodes check out. Can I test the tripeler with a meter? > If you download the very first service note on Cinematronics stuff from Spies, it addresses this > exact problem (CB blowing), which I also had. The service doc suggests checking the power > transitors and a few others, but this didn't solve my problem. I wish I could DL them :> > On mine, it ended up not being the transistors; I had chatter till the fuse blew, but saw > nothing but a huge white splotch. It ended up being the LF13331N IC... I replaced that and the > circuit stopped blowing, and the white blotch went away. I'm gonna try that.. > Just my experience, but you might check it out! I have a spare LF13331n if you need it, you > might temporarily rob one off of your other games to check. I think I have one around.. Thanks! thanks for your help too Zonn...but next time I wont say the names of the games... Jeff From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 06:36:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:35:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803271423.IAA01092@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 08:25:33 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cine mailing list archive References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > I've put the contects of the Cinematronics mailing list archive up > on spies in the vectorlist section. To fill in details, this is a little private e-mail list we started a couple years ago. The usual suspects (at the time) participated. Things have moved *much* farther along since then, but it is a good reference for those that are just joining the party. Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 06:57:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:57:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351BBC12.59389433@inficad.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:47:46 -0700 From: John Butler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Multigame Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Butler While we are talking about multigames, are there any plans to do an Atari multigame? What about monitors, are there a bunch of the WG6101's around? I have 0 luck finding anything vector in Phoenix. John Butler -- John Butler Mesa, AZ Collector of Classic Arcade Games and Pinball Machines From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 08:30:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:29:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980327163402.02903c58@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:34:02 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: RE: Cinematronics Assembler Question Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" Thank you Paul! It was the "out 6" instruction assembling to $90 instead of $96. Now the emulator displays a nice diagonal line on the lower left screen in the emulator. -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 08:47:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:47:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Round 2 CineMenu Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:46:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Clay, where can I get that dual 12-bit parallel DAC? I may have to get > this > stuff working in my Space Duel - I can't wait much longer to play :-) > It's two, *two*, TWO DACs in one! ;-) Sorry, weird mood this morning... Anyway, if the Cinematronics H/W has more or less two separate busses for the DACs, you might just want to use a pair of singles. Depends on how they update 'em. You can get Analog Devices stuff (like the AD7247A) from Hamilton Hallmark. Try: http://www.hh.avnet.com/parts_master/query.html If you're just going to try to make one unit you might want to try to use the Maxim parts. (I think I liked the MAX502-- Voltage out, +-10V output, 12-bit parallel load). Usually if you ask the Maxim webpage for samples it'll send you two of what you request. ;-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 10:13:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:13:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803271813.NAA02667@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics Assembler Question To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:13:32 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980327163402.02903c58@heartlab.com> from "Christopher V. Moore" at Mar 27, 98 11:34:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > Thank you Paul! > > It was the "out 6" instruction assembling to $90 instead of $96. Now the > emulator displays a nice diagonal line on the lower left screen in the > emulator. Strange. Out 0 shouldn't have any effect, and bit 6 is just the intensity which is bright or dim. It should have worked on real hardware - except you didn't reset the watchdog, which is OK since that would just restart it. Glad it works now. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:08:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:07:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" Ever since I stumbled on Jess's pages and fell in love with Vector games again, I've wanted a dedicated Major Havoc. No, I never played one way back when, but it's such a cool cabinet -- a small, looks like it might be a nice small addition to my collection. A few weeks ago, I saw one for sale. $1,500.00 Oh well, thinks I. That's too rich for my blood. Unless I win like $50,000 in the lotery . . . ----------- Last week I went down to ISPCON in Baltimore. (Great time if you are an ISP). To get people down on the vendor floor, they give away a Hummer. You have to get your card stamped by like 25 vendors who sponsor the thing, they put the cards in a bin and draw one out. I came home with a Hummer. For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. On the other hand, they list for $74,000. Anyone want to buy a Hummer ? Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? :-) -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:27:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:27:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:28:18 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day Chris, Well, I'll trade you my dedicated MH for your Hummer! 8^) 8^) 8^) OK, OK. I'll even deliver the MH to your doorstep and take all my time to drive the Hummer back to CA. Is that thing smogged? Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Some people have all the luck...how many entries were there for the Hummer drawing? >---------- >From: Christopher X. Candreva[SMTP:chris@westnet.com] >Sent: Friday, March 27, 1998 12:07 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Christopher X. Candreva >Subject: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > > >Ever since I stumbled on Jess's pages and fell in love with Vector games >again, I've wanted a dedicated Major Havoc. No, I never played one way back >when, but it's such a cool cabinet -- a small, looks like it might be a nice >small addition to my collection. > >A few weeks ago, I saw one for sale. $1,500.00 Oh well, thinks I. That's >too rich for my blood. Unless I win like $50,000 in the lotery . . . > >----------- > >Last week I went down to ISPCON in Baltimore. (Great time if you are an >ISP). To get people down on the vendor floor, they give away a Hummer. You >have to get your card stamped by like 25 vendors who sponsor the thing, they >put the cards in a bin and draw one out. > >I came home with a Hummer. > >For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. >I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l >turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 >seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed >out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. > >On the other hand, they list for $74,000. > >Anyone want to buy a Hummer ? > >Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? >:-) > >-Chris > >========================================================== >Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 >WestNet Internet Services of Westchester >http://www.westnet.com/ > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:28:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:28:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <010801bd59be$b1e253a0$bd441ed1@flash.net> From: "Callan Hendricks" To: Subject: Re: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:26:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Callan Hendricks" One Dedicated Major Havoc for sale in Houston.. Will trade for a Hummer... ;-) Callan. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher X. Candreva To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: Christopher X. Candreva Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 2:13 PM Subject: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > >Ever since I stumbled on Jess's pages and fell in love with Vector games >again, I've wanted a dedicated Major Havoc. No, I never played one way back >when, but it's such a cool cabinet -- a small, looks like it might be a nice >small addition to my collection. > >A few weeks ago, I saw one for sale. $1,500.00 Oh well, thinks I. That's >too rich for my blood. Unless I win like $50,000 in the lotery . . . > >----------- > >Last week I went down to ISPCON in Baltimore. (Great time if you are an >ISP). To get people down on the vendor floor, they give away a Hummer. You >have to get your card stamped by like 25 vendors who sponsor the thing, they >put the cards in a bin and draw one out. > >I came home with a Hummer. > >For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. >I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l >turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 >seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed >out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. > >On the other hand, they list for $74,000. > >Anyone want to buy a Hummer ? > >Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? >:-) > >-Chris > >========================================================== >Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 >WestNet Internet Services of Westchester >http://www.westnet.com/ > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:34:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:34:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <9803272044.AA29300@Techsource.COM> From: "omar" To: Subject: Re: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:37:43 -0500 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "omar" Trade ya a sealed MH conversion kit for your Hummer? :-) Omar ---------- > From: Christopher X. Candreva > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Cc: Christopher X. Candreva > Subject: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 3:07 PM > > > Ever since I stumbled on Jess's pages and fell in love with Vector games > again, I've wanted a dedicated Major Havoc. No, I never played one way back > when, but it's such a cool cabinet -- a small, looks like it might be a nice > small addition to my collection. > > A few weeks ago, I saw one for sale. $1,500.00 Oh well, thinks I. That's > too rich for my blood. Unless I win like $50,000 in the lotery . . . > > ----------- > > Last week I went down to ISPCON in Baltimore. (Great time if you are an > ISP). To get people down on the vendor floor, they give away a Hummer. You > have to get your card stamped by like 25 vendors who sponsor the thing, they > put the cards in a bin and draw one out. > > I came home with a Hummer. > > For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. > I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l > turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 > seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed > out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. > > On the other hand, they list for $74,000. > > Anyone want to buy a Hummer ? > > Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? > :-) > > -Chris > > ========================================================== > Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 > WestNet Internet Services of Westchester > http://www.westnet.com/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:40:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:40:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803272041.PAA12421@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:41:08 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Christopher X. Candreva" at Mar 27, 98 03:07:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > I came home with a Hummer. > > For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. > I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l > turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 > seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed > out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. That's the funniest thing I heard all week! Who the heck wants a $*#% Hummer? Does it have the big Iron rings protruding through the hood? You can hook parachutes on them and throw it out the back of an airplane :-) After placing 2nd in the AUVS ground robotics competition at OU, our team lead went on to work on Hummers that follow Hummers for the army (grad work) I never could figure out what cargo they'd carry cause there's no room - like ya said... > On the other hand, they list for $74,000. It'd cost more than that in gas for me to drive it home to Michigan. > Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? Last year one with monitor problems sold here for $50 at auction - no I didn't go that day :-( -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:47:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:47:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:48:39 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folk, Hey, Callan and Omar, I was first in line! Gee, now I know what it's like to have fellow collectors MUSCLE IN ON A DEAL I'M TRYING TO SET UP! (Is this when I'm suppose to ramble on about how RGVAC's become so competitive and it was never like this in the old days?) 8^) 8^) 8^) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - I have a Hummer hot wheels...you want to trade that for your MH kit, Omar? Do I get punchy on a Friday afternoon, or what? >---------- >From: Callan Hendricks[SMTP:callan@flash.net] >Sent: Friday, March 27, 1998 12:26 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Callan Hendricks >Subject: Re: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > > >One Dedicated Major Havoc for sale in Houston.. > >Will trade for a Hummer... ;-) > >Callan. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Christopher X. Candreva >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Christopher X. Candreva >Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 2:13 PM >Subject: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > > >> >>Ever since I stumbled on Jess's pages and fell in love with Vector games >>again, I've wanted a dedicated Major Havoc. No, I never played one way back >>when, but it's such a cool cabinet -- a small, looks like it might be a >nice >>small addition to my collection. >> >>A few weeks ago, I saw one for sale. $1,500.00 Oh well, thinks I. That's >>too rich for my blood. Unless I win like $50,000 in the lotery . . . >> >>----------- >> >>Last week I went down to ISPCON in Baltimore. (Great time if you are an >>ISP). To get people down on the vendor floor, they give away a Hummer. You >>have to get your card stamped by like 25 vendors who sponsor the thing, >they >>put the cards in a bin and draw one out. >> >>I came home with a Hummer. >> >>For those who don't know, a Hummer is a really big Jeep. I mean really big. >>I mean, like huge. It weighs 6,000 lbs, can tow another 10,000, has a 6.5l >>turbo diesel. And has no usable space that I can figure out. It's a 4 >>seater, with the engine/transmission between the seats. It has a small bed >>out back, that you couldn't even lay down a full-size arcade cab in. >> >>On the other hand, they list for $74,000. >> >>Anyone want to buy a Hummer ? >> >>Anyone know of a dedicated Major Havoc for sale in the New York area ? >>:-) >> >>-Chris >> >>========================================================== >>Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 >>WestNet Internet Services of Westchester >>http://www.westnet.com/ >> >> > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 12:52:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:52:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980327145337.00a97900@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:53:39 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) >I came home with a Hummer. > Damn funny thing... I work for Bay Networks and we were talking about the Hummer give-away at the end of last week when some marketing guys got back from the conference ... from what they said, Bay pretty much paid for the thing. Small world, Mit From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 13:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:12:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803272112.AA137043154@firewall.dofasco.ca> From: Ranger Mike To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:05:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ranger Mike You guys are killin me...Great way to end a week!!! Mike From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 13:32:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:32:09 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:31:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) In-Reply-To: <199803272041.PAA12421@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" I'm just going to answer everyone at once, rather than start a message storm: On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Paul Kahler wrote: > That's the funniest thing I heard all week! Who the heck wants a $*#% Hummer? > Does it have the big Iron rings protruding through the hood? You can hook Yes it does -- I was wondering what those hooks were for. Evidently, quite a few people want them. I'm right outside NYC. I see a few of them driving around Manhattan. I also see one just about every time I'm at Home Depot. Contracors love them. They are an ego-rush to drive. Reality does set in however. I can't aford the taxes for winning it, much less insurance, even if I do make it a company car. Mit: There were like 25 sponsors of the thing. Don't know how much each paid though. Steve: Off-hand I would guess 500 entries, out of maybe 2000 ISPs there. You had to be present to win, and a bunch of people were leaving early. The purpose of the give=away it to get you to visit the vendor booths to get those stamps. I think it does serve it's purpose that way. And hell, I get money out of it, so it's not all THAT silly. So give me a few weeks to sell it, then I'll be looking for the dedicated MH for real. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 13:53:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:53:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:52:29 -0500 (EST) From: Mitchell Rohde To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: "Christopher X. Candreva" Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mitchell Rohde I guess I'd only trade a dedicated MH for a hummer if it had some aftermarket gun turrets welded to the body..... sorta like a yuppie-meets-road-warrior type of thing... hhehehehhehe Mitch From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 13:58:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:58:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:59:47 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, By the way, was I the only one who checked the date before responding? April 1st is coming, and we have an imaginative bunch here! And congratulations, Chris! Buy a ded MH for me, too....I was just joking about having one for trade. (Maybe I should have waited till Wednesday to respond to your email and told you that I had a ded MH with serial number #000001?) Steven S Ozdemir sso@plpt.com (my company renamed itself in Feb) sso@dsc.com (good for a few more months) ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (permanent...weekly) ps - Then again, maybe Chris is "warming up" before taking this story to RGVAC on Wednesday, eh? 8^) 8^) 8^) >---------- >From: Christopher X. Candreva[SMTP:chris@westnet.com] >Sent: Friday, March 27, 1998 1:31 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Christopher X. Candreva >Subject: Re: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) > > >I'm just going to answer everyone at once, rather than start a message >storm: > >On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Paul Kahler wrote: > >> That's the funniest thing I heard all week! Who the heck wants a $*#% >>Hummer? >> Does it have the big Iron rings protruding through the hood? You can hook > >Yes it does -- I was wondering what those hooks were for. > >Evidently, quite a few people want them. I'm right outside NYC. I see a few >of them driving around Manhattan. I also see one just about every time I'm >at Home Depot. Contracors love them. > >They are an ego-rush to drive. Reality does set in however. I can't aford >the taxes for winning it, much less insurance, even if I do make it a >company car. > >Mit: There were like 25 sponsors of the thing. Don't know how much each >paid though. > >Steve: Off-hand I would guess 500 entries, out of maybe 2000 ISPs there. You >had to be present to win, and a bunch of people were leaving early. > >The purpose of the give=away it to get you to visit the vendor booths to get >those stamps. I think it does serve it's purpose that way. And hell, I get >money out of it, so it's not all THAT silly. > >So give me a few weeks to sell it, then I'll be looking for the dedicated >MH for real. > >-Chris > >========================================================== >Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 >WestNet Internet Services of Westchester >http://www.westnet.com/ > > > > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 14:19:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:18:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:17:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: WTB: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > By the way, was I the only one who checked the date before responding? > April 1st is coming, and we have an imaginative bunch here! So it is. I assure you however -- the hulking beast in my parrents garage is no joke. :-) > And congratulations, Chris! Buy a ded MH for me, too....I was just Thanks! > ps - Then again, maybe Chris is "warming up" before taking this story to > RGVAC on Wednesday, eh? 8^) 8^) 8^) Nah -- it's really only relavant because I'ld seen the MH just before. I'm not really looking to brag or anything . . . . -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 14:21:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:21:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:20:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hey Chris! Congrats! Is ISPCON now what BBSCON used to be? I talked at BBSCON a few times in the early years (like '92-'94 ;-) but the give-aways were always more like a "28.8 modem" and stuff. ;-) Jack Rickard (publisher of Boardwatch) always had this big red Hummer (I suppose "big" is redundant when describing a Hummer) at the shows in Colorado. Pretty cool prize! (Beware of the income tax on the win!) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 14:49:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:49:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:47:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hey Everyone, Guess I should contribute something none-Hummer related today. ;-) I fired up Paul's new menu code with the following results: 1) Hey! There's a screen full of text! *yay!* 2) Hey! It looks like my first try with the Sega Menu system! ;-) *Hmmmmm* It doesn't look like there's enough time for the beam to make it to the starting characters. a) The first asterisk in "* CINEMATROICS *" is still deformed-- the second one looks fine. b) the first character of each line of text is missing its first segment: "S" in "SELECT" (bottom of "S" gone) "A" in "ARMOR ATTACK" (left edge of "A" gone) "M" in "MULTIGAME" (left edge of "M" gone) (Actually, "gone" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more like "splattered all over the left side of the screen in some form of 'beam on before I get there' roadkill". :-) On the SegaMultigame I took the easy way out at first and just plotted a "space" before each line of text (don't care if the "space" is deformed since it's invisible). That took vector time that I needed though, so I ended up changing the draw order around and made a couple smaller jumps instead. Looks good so far though! Good going, Paul! -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 15:30:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:30:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:30:17 GMT Message-ID: <3528334a.187066647@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:47:46 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >Hey Everyone, > >Guess I should contribute something none-Hummer related today. ;-) > >I fired up Paul's new menu code with the following results: > >1) Hey! There's a screen full of text! *yay!* >2) Hey! It looks like my first try with the Sega Menu system! ;-) >*Hmmmmm* > >It doesn't look like there's enough time for the beam to make it to the >starting characters. > >a) The first asterisk in "* CINEMATROICS *" is still deformed-- the >second one looks fine. >b) the first character of each line of text is missing its first >segment: > "S" in "SELECT" (bottom of "S" gone) > "A" in "ARMOR ATTACK" (left edge of "A" gone) > "M" in "MULTIGAME" (left edge of "M" gone) > >(Actually, "gone" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more like "splattered >all over the left side of the screen in some form of 'beam on before I >get there' roadkill". :-) > >On the SegaMultigame I took the easy way out at first and just plotted a >"space" before each line of text (don't care if the "space" is deformed >since it's invisible). That took vector time that I needed though, so I >ended up changing the draw order around and made a couple smaller jumps >instead. > >Looks good so far though! Good going, Paul! Scott Boden mentioned to Bill Paul a couple of things you have to be = careful about when programming for a Vector monitor in general. ---- #1 The screen should be as symmetrical as possible. Any non symmetries = will heat up the output transistors/yoke, by placing a DC-bias on the signal. #2 The yoke has memory (he said this one really took him a while to = figure out, and was pretty emphatic on making this point clear). Any time you draw = to one side of the screen and then draw at the center of the screen, the yoke = can remain slightly magnetized in the previous direction. So if you draw in = the top of the screen, the draw something in the middle, then the bottom of the = screen, then in the middle, the two middle drawing might not line up. His solution was to write a simple "degauss" routine where he jumps back = and forth between the edges of the screen a few times to degauss the yoke = when he'd been drawing on one side to too long. ---- I believe you can see this last routine in effect by looking at the star = in the center of Solar Quest. The star seems to drift slightly and will then = "jump" back to the center. At first I thought this was a monitor thing -- yet = it happened on all monitors, after hearing of Scott's comments I now wonder = if that's when his degauss routine kicks in. -Zonn BTW: I don't know if I ever mentioned this or not, but Scott also talked= about an in house game that him and another programmer were constantly = modifying as a sort of sick joke. There were these clowns that would fly across the = screen and the object was to blow them away. Not much of a game but I guess it = really irked the management [maybe the faces were just a little too = recognizable?], which made it more fun to work on. I guess the fun part was adding or = changing something as a surprise to the other programmer. Unfortunately he says the code is long gone. :^( <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 15:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:41:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:41:54 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu round 2! Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "There were these clowns that would fly across the = screen and the object was to blow them away." we had a game like that at AED in the early 80's it was a bitmapped cat on a fence... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 16:50:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:50:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:49:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > "There were these clowns that would fly across the = > screen and > the object was to blow them away." > > we had a game like that at AED in the early 80's > it was a bitmapped cat on a fence... > One of our Mac programmers and I did the same sorta thing a couple years ago. We had a little "Supra" modem that shot down the corporate logo of a certain competitor (that had no sense of humor, I might add...) (Got sued for that one... Probably shouldn't have let that leak out... Whoops. :-) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Mar 27 20:25:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:25:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351C7B4F.2AED62BB@erols.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:23:44 -0500 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vectorlist@spies.com" Subject: Tempest PCB Tech? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kev Tempest PCB, will do test screens fine. Flip test switch to game, one horizontal green line in the middle. As you flip test switch back to test you will see the correct image flicker. Anyone know this one? Thanks, -- Kev Mowerman@erols.com >>REMOVE THE ? to REPLY Looking for Pac-Man related hacks & Video Game Coin Op Page -> http://www.erols.com/mowerman From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 28 10:14:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:14:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803281814.NAA11296@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinemenu round 2! To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:14:58 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 27, 98 02:47:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > 1) Hey! There's a screen full of text! *yay!* > 2) Hey! It looks like my first try with the Sega Menu system! ;-) > *Hmmmmm* Nope, never saw your Sega Menu :-) I just knew I couldn't display all the games and move a pointer around. The "useless" text was to balance the display and prevent spot killing. But Clay, you never said if you could select different games... Well? Or were you correct in saying your inputs don't work (hardware problem). If thats the case, I need another tester Mark! Also, is the LED off now? (Zonn, I'm reseting WDTimer *once* and doing 2 WAIs) If it resets, the game will revert to AA. Since a space has no lines, it doesn't move the beam around at all, so I'll add a delay at the start of the string drawing routine. I'm wondering how much time it's actually taking to draw this stuff - What if I set the intensity bit to bright after drawing the text until the next frame. Then someone (Clay?) could check the duty cycle to see what % of the CPU time it's using. May as well gather some data while were at it :-) As for DC offset, I wondered if that was an issue, so I tried to keep things somewhat semetric. I'll put asterisks around "MULTIGAME" and take them off Cinematronics to balance them better. The drawing order is: Cinematronics, Multigame, Select, GameName - I thought it might be a good idea not to just go from top to bottom (not sure why). I was a bit scared when Clay said the first rev was only drawing at the top... Then again, I'm not sure I buy that whole DC thing - as long as you exorcise all 4 transistors, each one will have a rest. Zonn, Hows this Solar Quest theory: The game draws all the ships first durring a frame, and the star last (which may degause a little). If there are more ships to one side, the star would be drawn to that side, when a ship suddenly wraps around to the other side, there is a distinct "snap" in the star position. Of course you can test this by noticing if the snap coincides with a ship changing sides... I've never seen the game, just speculating. Thanks, on to rev3... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Mar 28 18:48:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:47:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:45:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Nope, never saw your Sega Menu :-) I just knew I couldn't display all > the > games and move a pointer around. The "useless" text was to balance the > display and prevent spot killing. > :-) > But Clay, you never said if you could select different games... Well? > Or > were you correct in saying your inputs don't work (hardware problem). > If > thats the case, I need another tester Mark! Also, is the LED off now? > (Zonn, I'm reseting WDTimer *once* and doing 2 WAIs) If it resets, the > game will revert to AA. > I did the test super-quick during lunchtime, so I didn't mess with the control inputs. I'm testing in a RipOff cocktail machine with a dubious input system... I have to find my other Cinematronics boards in the attic or fix what I've got. > Since a space has no lines, it doesn't move the beam around at all, so > I'll > add a delay at the start of the string drawing routine. I'm wondering > how > much time it's actually taking to draw this stuff - What if I set the > intensity bit to bright after drawing the text until the next frame. > Then > someone (Clay?) could check the duty cycle to see what % of the CPU > time > it's using. May as well gather some data while were at it :-) > I can do the timing test if you modify the code. Can a "space" in Cinematroics-land be a draw with the beam off? (that's what I did with the Sega stuff for experimentation-- just draw a character-width line with the color guns off...) > As for DC offset, I wondered if that was an issue, so I tried to keep > things somewhat semetric. I'll put asterisks around "MULTIGAME" and > take > them off Cinematronics to balance them better. The drawing order is: > Cinematronics, Multigame, Select, GameName - I thought it might be a > good > idea not to just go from top to bottom (not sure why). I was a bit > scared > when Clay said the first rev was only drawing at the top... Then > again, > I'm not sure I buy that whole DC thing - as long as you exorcise all 4 > transistors, each one will have a rest. > Hmmm. From my experiments (admittedly on Wells-Gardner monitors) you're better off making short-jumps and being asymmetrical that trying to make big jumps and be symmetrical. If there's any residual effects from magnetism on the yoke I haven't been able to really notice them. (Doesn't mean they're not there though-- the star background in the Sega Multigame probably acts as a pretty decent "degausser". -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 29 07:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:31:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <351E69A5.D7F5455B@tir.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:33:21 -0500 From: Scott Goings X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Y axis adjustment on Tempest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Scott Goings Well I finally got the diode (ZD902) in from Mouser (not a stock part). After replacement I was able to adjust the picture to fit the CRT. Thanks to all who responded. Without this list and the other resources on the net I would never be able to maintain this thing. Thanks again, Scott Gregg Woodcock wrote: > >As the title states I am having problems with the Y adjustment on my > >tempest. I can not get the Y axis small enough to fit the screen. > > My guess is that you are also experiencing a problem with the X-axis but > that you just happen to have enough pot adjustment to counteract it. I'd > bet your ZD902 is bad on your HV unit and you have a low HV condition > causing blooming. It's cheap enough to replace so I'd start there. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Mar 29 17:02:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:01:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803300102.UAA20299@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: CineMenu 3rd try To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:02:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 28, 98 06:45:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Clay wrote: > I can do the timing test if you modify the code. Can a "space" in > Cinematroics-land be a draw with the beam off? (that's what I did with > the Sega stuff for experimentation-- just draw a character-width line > with the color guns off...) No, there is no way to draw a line with the beam off. You can only move fast with it off or slow with it on. I added a delay loop after it sends the beam toward the start of the text, this delay can be changed by editing the byte at $40A - it is currently set to $30 (I think). If there are still problems, you can edit menu.all and run the split macro, burn new roms... (sorry, I really should be doing this myself, OTOH 3 tries isn't bad). I also added the code to flip the intensity on durring "dead" time, so checking the duty cycle of the brightness signal will tell the percent of CPU time being used (this will be maxed for "war of the worlds"). This can be measured at PIN 11 of the 74LS259 at board location F2 or pin 14 of the video connector. If I'm not mistaken, you can just connect +5V to the main board and nothing else to take this measurement. Mark are you reading this? You've got actual multigame hardware that this thing should work with. Give it a shot, it doesn't seem to blow anything up :-) In case we forgot where to grab the rom data: http://www.oakland.edu/~phkahler/cinemenu/ BTW, I put in my order for a couple MAX502s to build a Cine->Atari gizmo. Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 08:55:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:54:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:53:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Dedicated Major Havoc (A Story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Congrats! Is ISPCON now what BBSCON used to be? I talked at BBSCON a > few times in the early years (like '92-'94 ;-) but the give-aways were > always more like a "28.8 modem" and stuff. ;-) Yup -- same thing. It's big business now though. The money vendors pour into entertainment is stunning. One company rented out the Baltimore aquarium for a St. Patrick's day party, open bar & food throughout the building. > Jack Rickard (publisher of Boardwatch) always had this big red Hummer (I > suppose "big" is redundant when describing a Hummer) at the shows in > Colorado. Pretty cool prize! (Beware of the income tax on the win!) (That's why I'm trying to sell the beast) Hummer was his idea. Last one they had to split the vendor floor into multiple rooms, and they were looking for a way to get people to the various floors. Story is, he looked out the window at the people gawking at his Hummer, and said "Too bad we can't just park the Hummer up there". So they did. THe whole point is to get people around the vendor floor, and it works. (OK folks --this got more off-topic than I anticipated. Sorry) OBV: Got my LV2000's today. Can't wait to start burning my fingers on the sodlering iron again . . . -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 10:43:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:43:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:43:27 GMT Message-ID: <3521e6d2.228756429@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:45:56 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >> Nope, never saw your Sega Menu :-) I just knew I couldn't display all >> the >> games and move a pointer around. The "useless" text was to balance the >> display and prevent spot killing. >>=20 >:-) > >> But Clay, you never said if you could select different games... Well? >> Or >> were you correct in saying your inputs don't work (hardware problem). >> If >> thats the case, I need another tester Mark! Also, is the LED off now? >> (Zonn, I'm reseting WDTimer *once* and doing 2 WAIs) If it resets, the >> game will revert to AA. >>=20 >I did the test super-quick during lunchtime, so I didn't mess with the >control inputs. I'm testing in a RipOff cocktail machine with a dubious >input system... I have to find my other Cinematronics boards in the >attic or fix what I've got. > >> Since a space has no lines, it doesn't move the beam around at all, so >> I'll >> add a delay at the start of the string drawing routine. I'm wondering >> how >> much time it's actually taking to draw this stuff - What if I set the >> intensity bit to bright after drawing the text until the next frame. >> Then >> someone (Clay?) could check the duty cycle to see what % of the CPU >> time >> it's using. May as well gather some data while were at it :-) >>=20 >I can do the timing test if you modify the code. Can a "space" in >Cinematroics-land be a draw with the beam off? (that's what I did with >the Sega stuff for experimentation-- just draw a character-width line >with the color guns off...) > >> As for DC offset, I wondered if that was an issue, so I tried to keep >> things somewhat semetric. I'll put asterisks around "MULTIGAME" and >> take >> them off Cinematronics to balance them better. The drawing order is: >> Cinematronics, Multigame, Select, GameName - I thought it might be a >> good >> idea not to just go from top to bottom (not sure why). I was a bit >> scared >> when Clay said the first rev was only drawing at the top... Then >> again, >> I'm not sure I buy that whole DC thing - as long as you exorcise all 4 >> transistors, each one will have a rest. >>=20 >Hmmm. From my experiments (admittedly on Wells-Gardner monitors) you're >better off making short-jumps and being asymmetrical that trying to make >big jumps and be symmetrical. If there's any residual effects from >magnetism on the yoke I haven't been able to really notice them. Clay's probably right here. The jumps in the Star in Solar Quest are = very small, (I doubt if anyone in the arcade noticed it much, it's just when = your repairing a monitor you notice *everything*) I also didn't talk with Scott Boden directly. I think he was just making = the point that if you go back to a position to draw a star and the star seems= to be jumping around, take into account the residual magnetism of the yoke = before spending a few hours debugging your program -- I get the impression = that's what happened to Scott! You'll certainly be able to draw more vectors if you keep the distance = between vectors small. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 12:10:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:10:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu round 2! Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:09:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > ---------- > From: zonn@zonn.com[SMTP:zonn@zonn.com] > > Clay's probably right here. > I'm printing this out and framing it. ;-) Don't think I've ever heard that from Zonn. 8^) *laugh* I'll do my usual quick-test during lunch on Paul's third rev of code. (Kinda handy living close to work.) -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 12:54:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:52:06 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: FS: Battlezone parts Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) I just bought a couple more battlezones this weekend. One of the cabinets was in really bad shape, so I stripped it and I'm selling the parts. If anybody needs any parts from a battlezone, go ahead and make offers (I almost always except the first offers) I have just about everything available. (coin door, front periscope w/marquee, control panel, pcb, cardboard backdrop, and even the step) -jeff jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 12:54:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:54:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:52:10 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Star Castle Cabinet Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) I just bought another star castle and the cabinet doesn't look anything like the standard star castle cabinet. The marquee looks nothing the the regular one, but it looks like a production piece. Also, the side are on the side doesn't have the name of the game on it, but it does have some ships in a battle. Question is, did they make 2 different cabinets for this game? -jeff jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 13:46:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:46:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Cinemenu, part 3 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:45:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hey, third time's a charm! Looks great, Paul! (Did you change the lines in the asterisk? They look different now-- better.) No visible distortions except maybe a little bit on the last asterisk in "* MULTIGAME *". Looks like they might not have all lined up at the center. The rest are fine though-- could be a monitor thing. I didn't mess with the controls at all (didn't plug 'em in). Assuming I have a working PCB, should they do anything with the RipOff controls? (Been a while, I don't recall what's works with what.) Anyway-- duty cycle, measured at pin 11 on F2 looks to be: low - 7.4ms high - 18.8ms Onscreen 'scope cursors are your friend. ;-) Let me know if I should try to debug my input section and try out the inputs (or if RipOff had different control mappings). -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 14:43:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:43:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:43:20 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "and even the step" mark, weren't you looking for a step? i remember someone needing one. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 14:49:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:49:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:47:56 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9803301647.ZM6415@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek@motgate.mot.com (Al Kossow) "Re: FS: Battlezone parts" (Mar 30, 2:43pm) References: X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mark Jenison On Mar 30, 2:43pm, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts > "and even the step" > > mark, weren't you looking for a step? > > i remember someone needing one. Yes, I was at one point, but I gave up and sold it to someone who I think is on this newsgroup. Mike Benedict? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 16:55:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:54:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:53:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Ok, off charter question, but I know someone here will know... Which Gottlieb games used the 8088? I've got a PCB I'm trying to ID. Didn't want to go digging through EPROM data unless I had to. ;-) SW/ESB stuff-- dunno if anyone other than Gregg cares about this at the moment, but I got the "new" SW/ESB prototype working happily over the weekend. (A single board that plugs into the 6809 socket on the CPU board, then one EPROM for the AVG, and one for the Sound card-- much easier to install!) Anyway, I need to experiment a little with the NOVRAM and then I should be able to have boards made. (I want to use one of those Dallas battery-backed SRAMs instead of the X22C12 novrams, but I'm not sure if that'll cause problems outside of self-test.) An a positive note-- most all the CPU code is now on a single 27C010 EPROM, so that makes it much easier to attach an EPROM emulator and muck with the code. ;-) I've got a 6809 Mnemonic disasembler cart for my logic analyzer and I'm ready to go looking for that damn shield-counter in ESB... Time to add a shield for surviving the asteroid field. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager ------------------------------------------------- /\ Diamond Multimedia System, Inc. \/ Communications Division From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 16:59:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:59:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:59:05 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Gottlieb.info: * GV-100 Reactor uses a MA-289 board which looks very similar to the Gottlieb.info: * GV-102 Mad Planets Gottlieb.info: * GV-103 Q*bert Gottlieb.info: * GV-104 Gottlieb.info: * GV-105 Krull test16, step 17 what do the roms say (probably GV 103) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:04:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:04:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803310103.UAA10212@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinemenu, part 3 To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:03:19 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 30, 98 01:45:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > Looks great, Paul! (Did you change the lines in the asterisk? They > look different now-- better.) No visible distortions except maybe a > little bit on the last asterisk in "* MULTIGAME *". Looks like they > might not have all lined up at the center. The rest are fine though-- > could be a monitor thing. In version 2 I changed the line drawing code to work like: 1) calculate end point (add char position to offset in font table) 2) wait for previous line to complete 3) send beam on it's way to start point 4) calculate end point (see 1) 5) calculate delta X,Y & "normalize" 6) Start drawing toward end point. Version 1 had step 4 before step 2. When you said the asterisk and C were a little goofy I made this change to give more settling time. I also went through the letters and made some changes. I assumed a letter should start close to the lower left and end close to the lower right and make small jumps. The changes to the asterisk in this respect was significant. As you can see, I don't pause while the beam move to the start other than the time it takes to run neessary code :-) This wasn't long enough for the first line of a text string... The asterisk is 4 lines, if they don't line up it's nonlinearity :-) > I didn't mess with the controls at all (didn't plug 'em in). Assuming I > have a working PCB, should they do anything with the RipOff controls? If I can read schematics correctly today it looks like it's mapped to player one left in Rip Off. Quick check... Emulator cfg file says the same thing. As for debugging what you've got, I'd check for activity on: pin 15 of C4 - this is the entry into TTL (push the button) pin 9 of A6 - should pulse twice per frame (26ms) as the menu polls pin 5 of C4 - when you press the button pin 10 of A6 - when you press the button pin 8 of F6 - when... Do you have schematics? BTW, if ripoff could read DIPs it's probably C4. this last output leads to pin 4 of H10 - an OR gate which would kill a lot if the other input didn't work (it's between the accumulator and the ALU). > Anyway-- duty cycle, measured at pin 11 on F2 looks to be: > > low - 7.4ms > high - 18.8ms > > Onscreen 'scope cursors are your friend. ;-) That's really cool! So it uses about 72% of the CPU time to display 4 lines of text (or is that 28% no...) It also tells us that each frame is 26.2ms +/- twice the error of your measurement. Our emulator runs with 26ms frames, the schematics were labeled 26.5. > Let me know if I should try to debug my input section and try out the > inputs (or if RipOff had different control mappings). Go for it. If by chance you can select games.... When A10 (CE) pin 19 of the roms goes hi a number that depends on the game selected should appear on A2-9 (pins 6,5,4,3,2,1,23,22) on the rom. Only the first 5 games or so have distinct numbers, I forget what - it's in a table in rom. If you have any other debug questions just ask. And don't take my word about pin numbers, I found a mistake above and corrected it :-) BTW Clay, I reqested e-mail confirmation on my MAX502 samples and haven't heard anything yet (that was friday). How long do they take? And so the CineMenu software works well. Anyone heard from Mark S ??? Thanks a bunch, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:06:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:06:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:06:10 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Cinemenu, part 3 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "BTW Clay, I reqested e-mail confirmation on my MAX502 samples and haven't heard anything yet (that was friday). How long do they take?" Maxim is really good about samples. You should have them in around a week. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:23:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:23:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Cinemenu, part 3 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:21:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Version 1 had step 4 before step 2. When you said the asterisk and C > were > a little goofy I made this change to give more settling time. > Seems to have worked nicely. Looks great! > > I didn't mess with the controls at all (didn't plug 'em in). > Assuming I > > have a working PCB, should they do anything with the RipOff > controls? > > If I can read schematics correctly today it looks like it's mapped to > player one left in Rip Off. Quick check... Emulator cfg file says the > same thing. > Ok, I'll mess with it. :-) > As for debugging what you've got, I'd check for activity on: > pin 15 of C4 - this is the entry into TTL (push the button) > pin 9 of A6 - should pulse twice per frame (26ms) as the menu polls > pin 5 of C4 - when you press the button > pin 10 of A6 - when you press the button > pin 8 of F6 - when... > Do you have schematics? > BTW, if ripoff could read DIPs it's probably C4. > I think I have Armor Attack schematics and Space War stuff somewhere. That'll be good enough for me. Thanks for the pointers. I'll try to get the board powered up with enough room to probe around. > > low - 7.4ms > > high - 18.8ms > > > > Onscreen 'scope cursors are your friend. ;-) > > That's really cool! So it uses about 72% of the CPU time to display > 4 lines of text (or is that 28% no...) It also tells us that each > frame > is 26.2ms +/- twice the error of your measurement. Our emulator runs > with > 26ms frames, the schematics were labeled 26.5. > The measurement should be pretty accurate. I was using one of the little portable Tektronix digital scopes from work, so the error should be about +-1 pixel worth of time (dunno what that is off the top of my head). Well, I just grabbed the scope again, so I'll do a long capture and find out for sure how long it is... > > Let me know if I should try to debug my input section and try out > the > > inputs (or if RipOff had different control mappings). > > Go for it. If by chance you can select games.... [...] Ok, I'll give it a shot tonight. (I'll try to resist the temptation of digging through all my stuff from Great Western... ;-) > BTW Clay, I reqested e-mail confirmation on my MAX502 samples and > haven't > heard anything yet (that was friday). How long do they take? > Ummmm, they always seem pretty fast to me. Maybe 3-5 days? They come in the mail. Then you'll get little Maxim literature packets in your mailbox every week for the rest of your life... Small price to pay for free DACs. ;-) > And so the CineMenu software works well. Anyone heard from Mark S ??? > Good question! I'm ready to buy a multigame, Mark! *grin* -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:24:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:24:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:23:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Gottlieb.info: * GV-100 Reactor uses a MA-289 board which looks very > similar to the > Gottlieb.info: * GV-102 Mad Planets > Gottlieb.info: * GV-103 Q*bert > Gottlieb.info: * GV-104 > Gottlieb.info: * GV-105 Krull test16, step 17 > > what do the roms say (probably GV 103) > *Doh!* Two bloody Q*Berts... *grumble* Was hoping for Reactor. Oh, well! :-) Thanks Al! -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:25:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:25:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:24:58 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Cinemenu, part 3 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I think I have Armor Attack schematics and Space War stuff somewhere." all of this stuff is on www.spies.com/arcade/schematics From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:26:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:26:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:26:14 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "*Doh!* Two bloody Q*Berts... *grumble* Was hoping for Reactor. Oh, well! :-)" I need to sit down and figure out how to convert the GV103 -> GV100 hopefully you got the speech boards too (with the SC01's..) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 17:35:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:35:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: Clay Cowgill To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:33:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > I need to sit down and figure out how to convert the GV103 -> GV100 > I agree completely! ;-) > hopefully you got the speech boards too (with the SC01's..) > That's what had me confused-- it's just one big board, without and headers for anything else. I don't see any SC01's though (is it a 20 pin .3" DIP? Got an empty socket for that). It does look like the board was built like PacMan-- it could be built in two smaller panels and ribbon-cabled together. -Clay From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 18:30:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:30:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:30:23 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) there is a separate audio board with a 6502 on it From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 18:53:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:53:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980330205157.007ca780@mail.tyler.net> X-Sender: tyr53870@mail.tyler.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:52:04 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Phil Yellott Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Phil Yellott At 02:43 PM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >"and even the step" > >mark, weren't you looking for a step? > >i remember someone needing one. > Actually, I was the one looking for a Step recently :) I have a handle on one, maybe, If I have problems I'll try to get yours. Phil - Phil Yellott (pyellott@longview.net) - From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 19:22:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:22:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199803310321.WAA29147@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: question, and SW/ESB kit update... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:21:47 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Mar 30, 98 05:23:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > *Doh!* Two bloody Q*Berts... *grumble* Was hoping for Reactor. Oh, > well! :-) Sorry this is WAY off topic, but Tim Skelly - who mistakenly gets associated with Q*Bert because he was "in the room" - said there was actually talk of having Q*Bert shoot snot-balls out his big shnoz... Just thought I'd share that. Stop laughing OK. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Mar 30 22:37:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:37:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:37:29 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: 'odd' star castle Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Didn't Rock-Ola sell Star Castle too? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 05:41:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 05:41:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199803311339.HAA08189@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 07:41:06 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: question, and SW/ESB kit update... References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > > Gottlieb.info: * GV-100 Reactor uses a MA-289 board which looks very > > similar to the > > Gottlieb.info: * GV-102 Mad Planets > > Gottlieb.info: * GV-103 Q*bert > > Gottlieb.info: * GV-104 > > Gottlieb.info: * GV-105 Krull test16, step 17 > > > > what do the roms say (probably GV 103) > > > *Doh!* Two bloody Q*Berts... *grumble* Was hoping for Reactor. Oh, > well! :-) I have a Q*Bert and Reactor. The boards appear to be identical, except Reactor interfaces to a track ball through a small ~4 IC PCB. I've been told that otherwise it is a ROM swap (I haven't done the rigorous side by side comparison). As others have mentioned, the sound board is seperate and interfaces to the main board through the monster edge connector. I believe QBert and Reactor use the same sound board as well (ROM swap) Reason I'm posting this is so someone can tell me I'm wrong before I go and try to get my Reactor going ;-) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 05:47:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 05:47:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:46:13 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Ray Ghanbari Subject: Re: question, and SW/ESB kit update... In-Reply-To: <199803311339.HAA08189@fermat.mayo.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Ray Ghanbari wrote: > I have a Q*Bert and Reactor. The boards appear to be identical, except > Reactor interfaces to a track ball through a small ~4 IC PCB. I've been told > that otherwise it is a ROM swap (I haven't done the rigorous side by side > comparison). > > As others have mentioned, the sound board is seperate and interfaces to the > main board through the monster edge connector. I believe QBert and Reactor use > the same sound board as well (ROM swap) > > Reason I'm posting this is so someone can tell me I'm wrong before I go and > try to get my Reactor going ;-) > > Ray > I think I heard somewhere that the memory map was different between the two games, so it's not as simple as a ROM swap, even though the boards are very similar... Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 06:33:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:33:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:33:12 -0600 From: Mike Benedict Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts In-reply-to: <9803301647.ZM6415@calcite> X-Sender: benedict_m@pop.palmer.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Message-id: <3.0.3.32.19980331083312.00b8d3e8@pop.palmer.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mike Benedict At 04:47 PM 3/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Mar 30, 2:43pm, Al Kossow wrote: >> Subject: Re: FS: Battlezone parts >> "and even the step" >> >> mark, weren't you looking for a step? >> >> i remember someone needing one. > >Yes, I was at one point, but I gave up and sold it to someone who I think is on >this newsgroup. Mike Benedict? Yep, my eyes lit up when I saw the article. I just fired off an offer on it. The only downside is that if I get it, I'll probably have to pry the wife off the game to get in any game time (she's vertically challenged :-). Mike Benedict From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 08:24:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:24:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <352118E4.2447@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:25:08 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: FS/TRADE HP 5004A Signature Analyzer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig I have an extra HP 5004A Signature Analyzer that I'm not likely to need any time soon. I would like to either sell it, or trade it for something video game related. This unit has two issues with it that decrease it's value somewhat.. 1) The case for the probe is missing. That is to say, that normally a plastic cylinder forms the probe, and it contains a circuit board with some electronics on it. The electronics and all cabling is there, but the actual cyclindrical case is missing. I bought it this way, and have no idea why it was removed. Also, the pointy screw-on tip is missing. So, just a threaded stud exists as the probe end. You'd want to fix that. 2) Those nifty little mini grabbers are missing. You don't NEED them, but you need something like them. The pod has 4 wires that come out of it that need to be connected to various points on your PCB that you're testing. These grabbers attach via friction fit to the pod wires. Anyway, you could solder mini grabbers to these wires, and you'd be all set. Aside from that, the unit is fine. For those who don't know, this unit is used to troubleshoot many of our games, but it's especially useful for debugging Atari mathboxes, and Cinematronics games. (Hence, I'm offering this in our vector list rather than RGVAC/M. I hope you don't mind.) I do not have a manual for this piece. However, you don't really need one to operate it, because all the schematics that have signature analysis codes tell you how to setup the analyzer anyway, so there's nothing left up to the imagination. :-) I'd like $50 for it, or trade me for something neat, or make me an offer. Joel- BTW, any chance that someone here has "processor pods" for an HP 1630G logic analyzer? I visited the Baltimore, MD flea this past weekend, and it was good to me. I came home with this analyzer for $175. Replaced one cap, and one bridge rectifier and the best came to life. It took me a while to get this thing apart. It's built like a TANK! 2 hours later, the thing was back together and running. Anyway, I learned that HP sold processor pods so that you could dissasemble the code for a particular processor as it's running. COOL! I will have to wait until the Dayton, OH hamfest if all else fails.. ;-) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 08:47:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:47:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: question, and SW/ESB kit update... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) The spinner adapter board is pretty simple (another project clay :-) ? The schematic is up on spies. A good friend of mine has been bugging me to build him a table-top Reactor, with sound output to his stereo so I need to get my board set going too.. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 09:10:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:10:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <352123D4.1784@erinet.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:11:48 -0500 From: James Marous Organization: James Marous, Biomedical Engineer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: FS/TRADE HP 5004A Signature Analyzer References: <352118E4.2447@an.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: James Marous Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > > I have an extra HP 5004A Signature Analyzer that I'm not likely to need > any time soon. I would like to either sell it, or trade it for > something video game related. > > This unit has two issues with it that decrease it's value somewhat.. > > 1) The case for the probe is missing. That is to say, that normally a > plastic cylinder forms the probe, and it contains a circuit board with > some electronics on it. The electronics and all cabling is there, but > the actual cyclindrical case is missing. I bought it this way, and have > no idea why it was removed. Also, the pointy screw-on tip is missing. > So, just a threaded stud exists as the probe end. You'd want to fix > that. > > 2) Those nifty little mini grabbers are missing. You don't NEED them, > but you need something like them. The pod has 4 wires that come out of > it that need to be connected to various points on your PCB that you're > testing. These grabbers attach via friction fit to the pod wires. > Anyway, you could solder mini grabbers to these wires, and you'd be all > set. > > Aside from that, the unit is fine. > > For those who don't know, this unit is used to troubleshoot many of our > games, but it's especially useful for debugging Atari mathboxes, and > Cinematronics games. (Hence, I'm offering this in our vector list > rather than RGVAC/M. I hope you don't mind.) > > I do not have a manual for this piece. However, you don't really need > one to operate it, because all the schematics that have signature > analysis codes tell you how to setup the analyzer anyway, so there's > nothing left up to the imagination. :-) > > I'd like $50 for it, or trade me for something neat, or make me an > offer. > > Joel- > > BTW, any chance that someone here has "processor pods" for an HP 1630G > logic analyzer? I visited the Baltimore, MD flea this past weekend, and > it was good to me. I came home with this analyzer for $175. Replaced > one cap, and one bridge rectifier and the best came to life. It took me > a while to get this thing apart. It's built like a TANK! 2 hours > later, the thing was back together and running. Anyway, I learned that > HP sold processor pods so that you could dissasemble the code for a > particular processor as it's running. COOL! I will have to wait until > the Dayton, OH hamfest if all else fails Hi Joel, I might be interested, what would you like to trade?? I have quite a few boards and other pieces laying around, send me a want list and I will see what I can do for you. I might also consider just buying it outright from you, let me know what works best for you. Just curious, you mentioned Hamfest in Dayton, I live in Springfield, OH, not far away, just curious where you are. Thanks James -- My Homepage! Http://www.erinet.com/jamesm/ mailto:jamesm@erinet.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 10:26:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:25:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:24:23 -0600 From: Mike Benedict Subject: Re: FS/TRADE HP 5004A Signature Analyzer In-reply-to: <352118E4.2447@an.hp.com> X-Sender: benedict_m@pop.palmer.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Message-id: <3.0.3.32.19980331122423.00b1eaf8@pop.palmer.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mike Benedict At 11:25 AM 3/31/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like $50 for it, or trade me for something neat, or make me an >offer. Hi Joel, If this is still available, I'll give you the $50 for it. I'm currently fixing a RipOff and a Space Wars and one of these was on my shopping list for Dayton this year. Let me know if it is still available. Thanks, Mike Benedict From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 10:34:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:34:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980331103234.006bd910@pop.cari.net> X-Sender: gaymond@pop.cari.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:32:34 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Gaymond Lee Subject: Re: 'odd' star castle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Gaymond Lee At 10:37 PM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Didn't Rock-Ola sell Star Castle too? > Yes they did but the cabinet is the same as the Cinematronics one. The control panel and gel overlay look different and the name "Rockola" appears where it would otherwise say "Cinematronics". Gaymond Lee From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 10:43:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:43:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Star Castle Cabinet Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:44:08 GMT Message-ID: <35223812.315106069@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:52:10 GMT, jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) wrote: >I just bought another star castle and the cabinet doesn't look anything >like the standard star castle cabinet. The marquee looks nothing the the >regular one, but it looks like a production piece. Also, the side are on >the side doesn't have the name of the game on it, but it does have some >ships in a battle. > >Question is, did they make 2 different cabinets for this game? I have a Rock-o-la Star Castle, but it looks almost identical to the Cinematronics Star Castle. It's built much better, and says "Rock-o-la" = where it would normally say "Cinematronics". The control panel has some = pictures of what the buttons do, where Cinematronics has none. I guess Rock-o-la had the foreign distribution rights or something = (That'd be a Steve O. kinda question), so the tougher cabinet, plastic tubing for all = the electrical wires, and the pictures on the control panel were probably all= there for different countries electrical standards, etc. I'd check to see if you got one of those Japanese clones. Check out the = monitor and boards, the Japanese moved the DACs from the monitor to the main = boards. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 10:46:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:46:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:46:06 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Star Castle Cabinet Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I'd check to see if you got one of those Japanese clones. Check out the = monitor and boards, the Japanese moved the DACs from the monitor to the main = boards. " ..or it could be Italian (Zaccharia) But the one I have a manual for said "Space Fortress" on the marquee. They also moved the DACs to the sound board from the monitor. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Mar 31 13:34:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:33:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:30:49 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Star Castle Cabinet Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) It has a standard cinematronics monitor (with the DACs on it), But it does have the HV directly on the monitor board (just like space wars). The game board looks almost exactly like my other one, except it doesn't have an LED on it (again like space wars) Maybe this is an early run, or a prototype :-) But with my luck it's probably some hacked conversion. I can't find any serial numbers on anything. If I get a chance, I'll take some pictures of it. -jeff >"I'd check to see if you got one of those Japanese clones. Check out the = >monitor >and boards, the Japanese moved the DACs from the monitor to the main = >boards. >" >..or it could be Italian (Zaccharia) But the one I have a manual for >said "Space Fortress" on the marquee. They also moved the DACs to the >sound board from the monitor. jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/