From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 07:28:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:26:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:24:26 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9712010924.ZM9787@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek@motgate.mot.com (Al Kossow) "Re: Zektor" (Nov 27, 10:25pm) References: <199711280637.BAA22520@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Zektor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Nov 27, 10:25pm, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: Re: Zektor > Gaymond Lee said in a recent RGVAC posting that > an operator he knows has one. I believe Gaymond was refering to a marquee, though, not the entire game (it would be best to have Gaymond clarify this, though). Zektor probably came in a generic converta-cabinets (per the pictures), so for all we know they were all converted to something more popular. Unfortunately since the controls were not useful for any games made later, the control panels were probably junked/converted :-(. So the rarest pieces left to find are a control panel and monitor bezel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 08:37:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:36:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712011638.LAA01042@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Italian Cinematronics Games To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:38:45 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Nov 28, 97 10:29:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > I haven't tried playing them to see if there are game play > differences. Got it running in another window right now. Looks & feels exactly the same as Star Castle except the copyright is replaced by: c 1980 elettronolo and for the other set: 1 89 Opccn mottoeiss Strange... Did they do this in 1989? BTW, both versions work just fine on our emulator: http://www.oakland.edu/~phkahler -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 10:37:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:36:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:37:40 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Star Wars / ESB reset problem Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Tracked down a weird problem over the weekend. I had a Star Wars boardset that just would NOT accept the ESB kit-- I had written it off as a fluke, when another guy had the same problem. Not good. I had him send me his problem boardset and I set out to figure out what the problem was. To make a long story short, for boards that have a weird "reset a few seconds after the gameplay starts" problem, the solution appears to be replacing the 74LS244's on the address bus. It's some sort of speed or bus loading issue (which kind-of explains why swapping EPROMs out sometimes fixed it in some cases). I'm more inclined to go with the bus-drive scenario, since replacing things with *faster* parts doesn't always help. Replacing the '244s fixed it two out of two times though. -Clay (This was a really screwy problem-- the boards would work with Star Wars EPROMs just fine. Adding the ESB daughtercard but keeping the rest of the EPROMs as Star Wars worked just fine. Swapping out even just one or two of the Star Wars EPROMs with 27C256's (programmed with the same code) would result in the "reset problem". Weird. Changing brands/speeds of EPROMs didn't help. Changing out the '244s on the bus fixed it...) Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 11:04:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:59:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:58:46 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Some vector games for sale... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com John, Do you have any battlezone parts? I'm looking for a control panel and a b&w xy monitor. What do you want for your bz cabaret and space duel cocktail? -jeff >Hmm let's see, what to clear out. >Atari Space Duel cocktail >Atari Tempest Cocktail >Atari Battlezone Cabaret >Atari Battlezone fullsize (!) >Sega Star Trek in a Tempset U/R cabinet. >Exidy Tailgunner II in a cockpit >Atari Star Wars in a cockpit >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam Barrier (Jwelser has his eye on this one) > >There must be one or two more hiding here... >I really need the space here, and so am open to offers. This stuff all >works, perhaps a package deal??? > >John :-#)# > > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) > mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 11:58:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: XREF on Tempest? Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:57:57 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day, Replaced all four opamps (TL082's) with no change. The bottom half of the Tempest picture still isn't being displayed? As I've said before, I've plugged this board set into another Tempest to verify that this is not a monitor problem. Can anyone explain what XREF and YREF does in the vector generator section of the non-Star Wars Atari color XY's? If these serve as references in the vector generator section of the PCB, could it be possible that these are voltages at a fixed value that XOUT and YOUT use as a baseline? If so, maybe my problem is that XREF is too high or too low and why everything on the bottom half of the screen is scrunched into a couple line? I should say that I can see "details" in those couple lines showing me playing games....but, oh, is it hard to see the bad guys coming up that half of the tube! 8^) 8^) 8^) I sure wish I had an oscilliscope to debug this.... Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 12:08:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:08:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:09:28 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega Multigame = Proto's OK! Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi all! Good news-- I got the Sega Multigame PCB's (and the "single player control panel interface" replacements) in before the holiday so I had time to test everything out. The replacement "Single Player Control Panel Interface" ("spinner interface") came up working the first try. *whew* The Multigame Daughtercard was *really* close. The netlist was exactly right, but I had messed up the clk and enable lines on the latches on the schematic. Oh, well, nothing a couple wires didn't fix. It's working just fine now. I'll put some pictures up on my webpage later today. So... I've got five or six of theses ready to go right now and I'll re-order the rest of the boards (with the latches "fixed") later this week, so... "Send me your money!" (Just my little tribute to _Suicidal_Tendencies_ there... ;-) I'm going to pull a fast one and raise the prices on each of these $1. (Covers some extra drill time at the board house I didn't count on, and pays for good dual-wipe sockets for all IC's.) Sega Multigame Kit (fully assembled with sockets) Includes: Multigame Daughtercard, Security Plug, decode PROM, manual, etc. $76 + $7 shipping = $83 each Sega "Spinner" Interface (fully assembled with sockets) Includes: Single Player Control Panel Interface, manual $21 + $3 shipping = $24 each I'll ship the Daughtercards DHL (1 or 2-day depending on where you are) and the spinner boards USPS. (If you order them together I'll send everything DHL.) International shipping (based on experience with the ESB kits) is $40 for DHL pretty much anywhere, and it'll make it in a few days. So, send your checks or MO's or whatever to: Clay Cowgill 109 SE 175th Ave Vancouver, WA 98683 If it's not too much trouble, please print out this order form and include it (filled out) with your check or Money Order. (It'll help me keep from getting them mixed up with ESB kit orders...) The answers to the questions will help me when writing new software for the daughtercard... The current software load on the Daughtercard is: Star Trek Space Fury (uses Star Trek control panel) Eliminator (uses Star Trek control panel) Tac/Scan (uses Star Trek control panel) Zektor (uses Star Trek control panel) Eliminator (original controls) Eliminator 4-player (original controls) ???? There is one full "bank" free on the EPROM right now-- maybe I'll put Space Fury with "original" controls in there... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sega Multigame/Interface Order Form Ship to: _____________________________________ _____________________________________ _____________________________________ Quantity Price with Shipping ------------------------------------------------------------------- [ ] Sega Multigame Kit $83 [ ] Replacement "Spinner" Interface $24 Total: [ ] Questions: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Will this be installed in: [ ] ...a Sega/G80 cabinet (GO-8 monitor) [ ] ...an Atari cabinet (Wells Gardner or Amplifone monitor) [ ] ...other Can you burn your own EPROMs (27C040 or 27C080)? [ ] Yes [ ] No Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 15:08:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:08:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:07:58 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: more info on euro star castle boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com here's a bit more info clay, will you be making any more boards for anything in the near future, now that I have a design for a cine -> asteroids monitor converter :-) >the boards are actually star castle, not rip off. do you happen I knew that, I hope I didn't give you any other ideas? >to know what company OpccnMottoeiss is ?=20 >one of the board sets was from Elettronolo, who I assume was >the Italian company that the manual goes with, but I didn't >know who the other company was Tha manual is the one going with the unmarked (not Elettronolo) PCB. It (the unmarked) belonged in a Zaccaria cabinet named Space Fortress, fancy artwork on the sides etc. The other one was ripped out of another = cab (that I didn't see) named Stellar Castle (90% sure about the name - it = was 'stellar' anyhow), unknown brand. On a sticker on the power PCB for the Zaccaria version (or next to it) it said something like 'Special powersupply, only use with Space Fortress = and Space Pirates'. I tried one of the (the Space Fortress) on an Asteroids monitor and it worked like clockwork. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 15:36:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:36:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@concentric.net (Zonn) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Italian Cinematronics Game Boards Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:37:54 GMT Message-ID: <348446ee.861218546@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:53:26 -0800 (PST), aek@goonsquad.spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >The REALLY interesting thing is this >company didn't use the Cine monitor design THE ANALOG >SECTION IS ON THE SOUND BOARD! and they designed their >own power supply and X/Y monitor (at least the monitor >schematic has all SGS part numbers for the transistors) This sounds like the Japanese clone of Star Castle. Cinematronics sued to have all these machines destroyed, and won, so there's not very many around. According to a an ex-Cinematronics technician, it was a better, more reliable design. One of the biggest reliability problems Cinematronics had was the sensitive analog parts being blown by HV discharges as the monitor was powered on/off. Moving the analog section off the monitor was good for reliability. Though I'm sure the reason the Japanese did so was to allow them to use off the shelf X/Y monitors. It's cheaper to design a PC-board than to go into production with a new monitor (you know, winding special purpose yokes, etc.) Of course that doesn't explain this company if they went through the trouble off designing their own monitors. Was this game *really* popular enough to design your own monitor for? And still turn a profit? BTW: I played both version on my emulator for a while, they both seem to play like the original (Version 1) of Star Castle, with nothing but the titles changed. All the score and game play is still in English, looks like a hack to me. I wonder if Cinematronics made the hack, or whether this was done illegally. I would think it would have to have been done by someone in the know, I can't imagine reverse engineering the whole CPU board just to change a title. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ concentric . net -------| // \\/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 15:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:38:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:39:57 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: more info on euro star castle boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >here's a bit more info > >clay, will you be making any more boards for anything >in the near future, now that I have a design for a >cine -> asteroids monitor converter :-) I'll make it a point to. (I want one! :-) There's some stuff I want to do still (raster monitor tester and the "PCB tester" board come to mind) so we should be able to include it with something else. Can I get the schematic someplace? (I wasn't paying attention to the earlier e-mail.) As long as I get the schematic entered in OrCAD Capture, outputting a board in Layout Plus is getting easier and easier. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 15:43:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:43:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:43:12 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Italian Cinematronics Game Boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com "I can't imagine reverse engineering the whole CPU board just to change a title." The CPU boards are copies of the Cine board, they redid the sound/vector generator board. Looking at the drawings, the CPU schematics are copies of the Cine schematics, while the sound board follow euro schematic drawing conventions. I'll try to get these scanned in tonight.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 15:56:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:56:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:56:18 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, I was contacted about three years ago by someone in Italy who has a Stellar Castle board set that was suppose to be a Star Castle copy. He tried to send me a copy of the EPROMs, but I think they were corrupted during reading or in transit since the images were several bytes shy of the 2048 bytes that I'd expect. Can't say that I've heard of Space Fortress except for in KLOV...and I'd trust that database as far as I can throw it! To hear that Space Fortress is a Star Castle copy makes perfect sense to me. Is Al serious about his Cinematronics to Asteroids monitor converter? If so, I hadn't realized how much progress had been made while I was on sabatical. I think a "Cine to Atari" adapter would open up Cinematronics game to alot more collectors if a document showed them how to populate a PCB with a couple of chips to mate the Cinematronics motherboard to an Atari BW XY cabinet. Of course, the Cinematronics sound board needs odd voltages so that would have to be considered too... Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - Does anyone want to speculate what Space Pirates was a copy of? How about Star Hawk?? >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Monday, December 01, 1997 3:07 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: more info on euro star castle boards > > >here's a bit more info > >clay, will you be making any more boards for anything >in the near future, now that I have a design for a >cine -> asteroids monitor converter :-) > >>the boards are actually star castle, not rip off. do you happen >I knew that, I hope I didn't give you any other ideas? > >>to know what company OpccnMottoeiss is ?=20 > > >>one of the board sets was from Elettronolo, who I assume was >>the Italian company that the manual goes with, but I didn't >>know who the other company was > >Tha manual is the one going with the unmarked (not Elettronolo) PCB. >It (the unmarked) belonged in a Zaccaria cabinet named Space Fortress, >fancy artwork on the sides etc. The other one was ripped out of another = >cab >(that I didn't see) named Stellar Castle (90% sure about the name - it = >was >'stellar' anyhow), unknown brand. > >On a sticker on the power PCB for the Zaccaria version (or next to it) it >said something like 'Special powersupply, only use with Space Fortress = >and >Space Pirates'. I tried one of the (the Space Fortress) on an Asteroids >monitor and it worked like clockwork. > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:04:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:04:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:04:14 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com "Is Al serious about his Cinematronics to Asteroids monitor converter? If so, I hadn't realized how much progress had been made while I was on sabatical." Clay and I are quite serious. I started poking at the design about two months ago (just before I got sucked into the time sink of 70's B&W raster games, but that's my own fault..) and I'm really interested now that two different designs on PC boards were given to me. I just looked at the schematics, and it turns out the design that used DAC80's used a 4016 analog switch instead of the National LF part. I'll have to trace out the other design that used National DAC1221's and an LF switch. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:06:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:06:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@concentric.net (Zonn) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Italian Cinematronics Game Boards Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 00:08:27 GMT Message-ID: <34864ffe.863538372@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:43:12 -0800 (PST), aek@goonsquad.spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >"I can't imagine reverse engineering the whole >CPU board just to change a title." > >The CPU boards are copies of the Cine board, they redid >the sound/vector generator board. Looking at the drawings, >the CPU schematics are copies of the Cine schematics, >while the sound board follow euro schematic drawing >conventions. > >I'll try to get these scanned in tonight.. What I meant, is that I couldn't imagine a company going through all the trouble of reverse engineering the full instruction set just so they could hack in a new title over the old one. More likely somebody associated with Cinematronics (or Vectorbeam) made the change, was it done legally? -- who knows. The original Japanese clone used some and/or/xor logic to blank the Cinematronics copyright notice. Cutting a trace to disable this "blanking" circuit, caused the Cinematronics copyright to "re-appear" on the Japanese boards. This is what they did in court to win the lawsuit. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ concentric . net -------| // \\/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:27:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:27:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:28:30 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Over the holiday weekend I had plenty of time to play with "stuff"... One of the things I did was finally force myself to understand how the HV supply of monitors works (and to design a "new" one as a test). I concentrated on the Wells Gardner HV design and the GO-7 power section (since those two use the same CRT). It looks to me as though the only reason we're using "custom" HV transformers at all is that they're insistant on using the differential +-25V DC power supply. The only big difference from most of the "raster" type power supplies (other than not being triggered off the Horizontal retrace speed) is that the transformer that triggers the Horizontal Output Transistor sits with one leg at chassis ground on a Raster where as the Wells Gardner/Atari monitor designs hold one leg at -DC rail. (I assume that having the +-DC supplies were just an artifact of the deflection system, so rather than bring 120VAC out to the HV cage they just used the DC supplies already available.) It looks to me that the "special" windings of the vector HV transformers really only increase the turns ratio to make up for the 50-60V peak to peak output of the HOT instead of a ~120V P-P on a Raster. (So in theory, if you replaced an amplifone HV unit with a GO-7 HV transformer-- wired up so everything matches correctly-- you'd get about 50% of the HV you'd want. I run my Wells Gardners at about 16KV-- I wonder if you couldn't just turn up the "HV adjust" a bunch and get somewhere close to 16KV for a usable display... :-) Now that I "get it" it looks really easy to make a HV power supply for an Amplifone or Wells Gardner Vector monitor. All you do is take 120VAC and run it through the DC rectification front end (like a GO-7) that gives you about 120DC. Instead of all the horizontal retrace stuff and whatnot you trigger a couple transistors off of a 555-timer circuit like the Wells Gardner uses. The transistors kick a little trigger transformer (the Wells Gardner/Amplifone used step-down transformers to pick up more current) that triggers the HOT which applies the potential of the +120VDC rail to the HV transformer. Screen and grid voltages just come off a resistor divider network. That's all there is to it. Basically you could make a replacement HV supply using parts from a GO-7 with no problems-- and you wouldn't need to worry about keeping the deflection yoke and the rest of the "raster" crap attached to the chassis. I bet the whole thing would cost less than half of a new Amplifone transformer... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:31:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:31:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:32:50 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Clay and I are quite serious. I started poking at the design about two >months ago (just before I got sucked into the time sink of 70's B&W >raster games, but that's my own fault..) and I'm really interested >now that two different designs on PC boards were given to me. And I've got the Sega stuff pretty much wrapped up now, so it's this or Nightmare next... :-) >I just looked at the schematics, and it turns out the design that used >DAC80's used a 4016 analog switch instead of the National LF part. >I'll have to trace out the other design that used National DAC1221's >and an LF switch. Anybody know why Atari got away from the 4016 and went with the LF13201 in the AVG games? My guess was that the series resistance of the 4016 was too high and gave them problems with zero'ing the caps in the integrator... Seems like I saw something (somewhere) that used a bunch of 4066's or 4016's in parallel-- presumably just to lower the series resistance. 4066's are pretty cheap and plentiful compared to their LF13xxx bretheren. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:37:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:37:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@concentric.net (Zonn) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 00:38:50 GMT Message-ID: <348957c8.865532991@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:28:30 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: >Over the holiday weekend I had plenty of time to play with "stuff"... = One >of the things I did was finally force myself to understand how the HV >supply of monitors works (and to design a "new" one as a test). > >I concentrated on the Wells Gardner HV design and the GO-7 power section >(since those two use the same CRT). It looks to me as though the only >reason we're using "custom" HV transformers at all is that they're >insistant on using the differential +-25V DC power supply. The only big >difference from most of the "raster" type power supplies (other than not >being triggered off the Horizontal retrace speed) is that the = transformer >that triggers the Horizontal Output Transistor sits with one leg at = chassis >ground on a Raster where as the Wells Gardner/Atari monitor designs hold >one leg at -DC rail. (I assume that having the +-DC supplies were just = an >artifact of the deflection system, so rather than bring 120VAC out to = the >HV cage they just used the DC supplies already available.) > >It looks to me that the "special" windings of the vector HV transformers >really only increase the turns ratio to make up for the 50-60V peak to = peak >output of the HOT instead of a ~120V P-P on a Raster. (So in theory, if >you replaced an amplifone HV unit with a GO-7 HV transformer-- wired up = so >everything matches correctly-- you'd get about 50% of the HV you'd want.= I >run my Wells Gardners at about 16KV-- I wonder if you couldn't just turn= up >the "HV adjust" a bunch and get somewhere close to 16KV for a usable >display... :-) > >Now that I "get it" it looks really easy to make a HV power supply for = an >Amplifone or Wells Gardner Vector monitor. All you do is take 120VAC = and >run it through the DC rectification front end (like a GO-7) that gives = you >about 120DC. Instead of all the horizontal retrace stuff and whatnot = you >trigger a couple transistors off of a 555-timer circuit like the Wells >Gardner uses. The transistors kick a little trigger transformer (the = Wells >Gardner/Amplifone used step-down transformers to pick up more current) = that >triggers the HOT which applies the potential of the +120VDC rail to the = HV >transformer. Screen and grid voltages just come off a resistor divider >network. That's all there is to it. You haven't mentioned regulation. Are you planning on using the same darlington type regulators already in use by these monitors? They should work -- assuming the replacement flybacks also have the 180 volt windings needed to drive the CRT guns (I'm assuming they must), since this is the voltage used as feedback in the regulation section of these monitors. Just wondering. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ concentric . net -------| // \\/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 16:39:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:39:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com couple of things unless you can find an output winding on the atari power supply assembly, you'll need an isolation transformer on the AC line. you will have to experiment with the LC value of the primary of the chosen HV transformer to get it back in resonace without the horizontal deflection coil in the circuit, or adjust the osc frequency up (not a big deal since you don't have to run at 15khz, in fact, it would be better (noise wise) if you were supersonic) the HV on vector monitors is a few KV lower on vector monitors than raster monitors you didn't mention if you were going to make this a closed loop HV supply (with HV regulation) HV regulation is a GOOD THING. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 17:09:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:09:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:10:44 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >couple of things > >unless you can find an output winding on the atari power supply >assembly, you'll need an isolation transformer on the AC line. True. >you will have to experiment with the LC value of the primary of >the chosen HV transformer to get it back in resonace without >the horizontal deflection coil in the circuit, or adjust the >osc frequency up (not a big deal since you don't have to run >at 15khz, in fact, it would be better (noise wise) if you were >supersonic) From the look of it, I'll just be replacing the HOSC output from the monitor's "control" IC with a similar signal from a 555. >the HV on vector monitors is a few KV lower on vector monitors >than raster monitors That's actually a good thing, IMHO. I run my monitors several KV lower than the manuals say anyway with seemingly very good results... >you didn't mention if you were going to make this a closed >loop HV supply (with HV regulation) >HV regulation is a GOOD THING. The Wells Gardner/Amplifones didn't do that did they? Wouldn't that mess with the Star Wars explosion effects? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 17:13:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:13:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971201171157.0079e880@frobozz.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sswazey@frobozz.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:11:57 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Scott Swazey Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:32 PM 12/1/97 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: [...] > >>I just looked at the schematics, and it turns out the design that used >>DAC80's used a 4016 analog switch instead of the National LF part. >>I'll have to trace out the other design that used National DAC1221's >>and an LF switch. > >Anybody know why Atari got away from the 4016 and went with the LF13201 in >the AVG games? My guess was that the series resistance of the 4016 was too >high and gave them problems with zero'ing the caps in the integrator... I think it's the VCC supply range. It's limited to +12V on the 4016, where as the the LF 13xxx can span +30V (-15,+15V) -Scott Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 17:35:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:34:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@concentric.net (Zonn) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 01:36:31 GMT Message-ID: <348a6295.868298427@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:10:44 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: >>couple of things >> >>unless you can find an output winding on the atari power supply >>assembly, you'll need an isolation transformer on the AC line. > >True. > >>you will have to experiment with the LC value of the primary of >>the chosen HV transformer to get it back in resonace without >>the horizontal deflection coil in the circuit, or adjust the >>osc frequency up (not a big deal since you don't have to run >>at 15khz, in fact, it would be better (noise wise) if you were >>supersonic) > > From the look of it, I'll just be replacing the HOSC output from the >monitor's "control" IC with a similar signal from a 555. > >>the HV on vector monitors is a few KV lower on vector monitors >>than raster monitors > >That's actually a good thing, IMHO. I run my monitors several KV lower >than the manuals say anyway with seemingly very good results... > >>you didn't mention if you were going to make this a closed >>loop HV supply (with HV regulation) >>HV regulation is a GOOD THING. > >The Wells Gardner/Amplifones didn't do that did they? Wouldn't that = mess >with the Star Wars explosion effects? Wells Gardner did regulate the output, based on feedback from the 180v supply. Amplifones use a completely different way of regulating their HV. At a company a few years back, we were using some tuned transformers as the basis of our computer power supplies. I can't remember what these things were called, but the effect was by running the transformer with a big capacitor on a winding on the output, the transformer would resonate , at 60hz, into total saturation. At that point, for a pretty broad range of values (70v to 190v) changing the input voltage had no effect on the output voltage. The Amplifone seems to use a very similar circuit. By running the voltage through that *magnoresonator* or whatever that coil looking thing is, combined with a specially wound HV transformer, they seem to keep the transformer/magnoresonator in saturation. This keeps a constant value on the output of the HV even with current usage changing on the HV supply. I don't even pretend to understand it, though if that *magnoresonator* thingy were describe better I'm sure the circuit could be described with some simple LC math. Either way, the amplifone's HV is also regulated. The Amplifone does fall out of regulation during the explosion scenes. If you look at the +/-24v regulators used to regulate the inputs you'll see they are bypassed with 50 ohm resistors. During the explosions, the 7824/7924 could not supply the amount of current needed. These resistor supply the additional amount of current during current peaks, though when they kick in, regulation is lost. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ concentric . net -------| // \\/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 18:07:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:07:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:08:50 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Pictures up... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com If anyone wants a peek at the Sega Multigame boards, take a look at: http://www.wwwpro.com/clay/sega_multigame.html -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 18:15:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:15:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:15:13 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Re: XREF on Tempest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > Can anyone explain what XREF and YREF does in the vector generator > section of the non-Star Wars Atari color XY's? If these serve as > references in the vector generator section of the PCB, could it be > possible that these are voltages at a fixed value that XOUT and YOUT use > as a baseline? If so, maybe my problem is that XREF is too high or too > low and why everything on the bottom half of the screen is scrunched > into a couple line? I should say that I can see "details" in those > couple lines showing me playing games....but, oh, is it hard to see the > bad guys coming up that half of the tube! 8^) 8^) 8^) XREF and YREF are the reference voltages for the DACs (In fact, it's generated BY the DAC-08 (and other stuff,) FOR the AM6012s.) XREF and YREF should be the same, so you might check that out (although the reference voltages are not static, they change, based upon the DVY signals.) If you're XREF voltage was bad, I'd doubt you'd get anything out of the corresponding AM6012 DAC, especially nothing as "good" as a good half-picture. Generally a reference voltage that's too low will cause some seriously wierd stuff to happen to DAC outputs -- at least to the DACs that I build... > > I sure wish I had an oscilliscope to debug this.... > You've got 2 options...buy a scope, or shotgun it. I'd start with the analog switches if you choose the latter, since they're the cheapest and easiest to find. Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 18:22:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:22:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:16:23 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: "Ozdemir, Steve" cc: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > ps - Does anyone want to speculate what Space Pirates was a copy of? > How about Star Hawk?? I'd guess Rip Off... Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 18:31:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:31:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:31:05 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9712012031.ZM23189@calcite> In-Reply-To: "RE: more info on euro star castle boards" (Dec 1, 8:16pm) References: <199712020233.VAA02577@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com, "Ozdemir, Steve" Subject: Re: more info on euro star castle boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Dec 1, 8:16pm, wrote: > Subject: RE: more info on euro star castle boards > > On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > > > ps - Does anyone want to speculate what Space Pirates was a copy of? > > How about Star Hawk?? > > I'd guess Rip Off... I'd have to agree based on the fact that when I had an Apple IIe, I had a game called Space Pirates which was a rip off of Rip Off. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 22:38:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:37:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3483AAB4.2AD09344@istar.com> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:29:08 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi, Clay! Sounds like a natural evolution on my idea. I beleive though that you willfind that unless you can get the HV up to the 19KV range that you will not get a sharp image. You need the 19KV to accelerate the elctron beam so it can be bright and sharp. Still this is the right direction. The GO7 flybacks are quite cheap right now, and if the supply was modified so that one would get a voltage doubler to raise the relative B+ to areound 120VDC then chances are this would work. Who has the time to do this??? (Not I) John :-#)# Clay Cowgill wrote: > > Over the holiday weekend I had plenty of time to play with "stuff"... One > of the things I did was finally force myself to understand how the HV > supply of monitors works (and to design a "new" one as a test). > > I concentrated on the Wells Gardner HV design and the GO-7 power section > (since those two use the same CRT). It looks to me as though the only > reason we're using "custom" HV transformers at all is that they're > insistant on using the differential +-25V DC power supply. The only big > difference from most of the "raster" type power supplies (other than not > being triggered off the Horizontal retrace speed) is that the transformer > that triggers the Horizontal Output Transistor sits with one leg at chassis > ground on a Raster where as the Wells Gardner/Atari monitor designs hold > one leg at -DC rail. (I assume that having the +-DC supplies were just an > artifact of the deflection system, so rather than bring 120VAC out to the > HV cage they just used the DC supplies already available.) > > It looks to me that the "special" windings of the vector HV transformers > really only increase the turns ratio to make up for the 50-60V peak to peak > output of the HOT instead of a ~120V P-P on a Raster. (So in theory, if > you replaced an amplifone HV unit with a GO-7 HV transformer-- wired up so > everything matches correctly-- you'd get about 50% of the HV you'd want. I > run my Wells Gardners at about 16KV-- I wonder if you couldn't just turn up > the "HV adjust" a bunch and get somewhere close to 16KV for a usable > display... :-) > > Now that I "get it" it looks really easy to make a HV power supply for an > Amplifone or Wells Gardner Vector monitor. All you do is take 120VAC and > run it through the DC rectification front end (like a GO-7) that gives you > about 120DC. Instead of all the horizontal retrace stuff and whatnot you > trigger a couple transistors off of a 555-timer circuit like the Wells > Gardner uses. The transistors kick a little trigger transformer (the Wells > Gardner/Amplifone used step-down transformers to pick up more current) that > triggers the HOT which applies the potential of the +120VDC rail to the HV > transformer. Screen and grid voltages just come off a resistor divider > network. That's all there is to it. > > Basically you could make a replacement HV supply using parts from a GO-7 > with no problems-- and you wouldn't need to worry about keeping the > deflection yoke and the rest of the "raster" crap attached to the chassis. > I bet the whole thing would cost less than half of a new Amplifone > transformer... > > -Clay > > Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager > _______________________________________________________________________ > /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com > \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 1 22:38:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:37:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3483A84C.19C0312B@istar.com> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:18:52 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Some vector games for sale... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi, Jeff(and all)! What Battlezone parts are you looking for? I have four BZ's right now, 3 U/R's and the Cabaret. Have some control hardware and a bunch of boards. Offers on games? Lemmesee, I would like to get $395US for the Space Duel C/T (very good monitor and cabinet. Of course the game works fine. Perhaps could be converted to a Tempest? As for the BZ Cabaret...Same price. John :-#)# Jeff Hendrix wrote: > > John, > Do you have any battlezone parts? I'm looking for a control panel > and a b&w xy monitor. > What do you want for your bz cabaret and space duel cocktail? > > -jeff > > >Hmm let's see, what to clear out. > >Atari Space Duel cocktail > >Atari Tempest Cocktail > >Atari Battlezone Cabaret > >Atari Battlezone fullsize (!) > >Sega Star Trek in a Tempset U/R cabinet. > >Exidy Tailgunner II in a cockpit > >Atari Star Wars in a cockpit > >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam Barrier (Jwelser has his eye on this one) > > > >There must be one or two more hiding here... > >I really need the space here, and so am open to offers. This stuff all > >works, perhaps a package deal??? > > > >John :-#)# > > > > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) > > mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com > > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." > > jeffh@diac.com > > Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. > www.diac.com/~jeffh/ -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 03:05:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:05:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34840737.3A1C@mail.idt.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 05:03:51 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Clay, What did you ever find out about that new Murata flyback I sent you (about a year ago now?) that I thought might have been a replacement for the WG HV transformer? I know it is not a replacement, but if it can produce ~19Kv and you could use for making up a HV replacement module, I can buy those for only $5 each and probably cheaper in quantity (although I dont know how many are available, probably at least 200). since the transformer would be the most expensive part, that would DRASTICALLY reduce the price. Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 06:34:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:34:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:33:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... In-Reply-To: <348a6295.868298427@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Zonn wrote: > The Amplifone does fall out of regulation during the explosion scenes. > If you look at the +/-24v regulators used to regulate the inputs you'll > see they are bypassed with 50 ohm resistors. During the explosions, the > 7824/7924 could not supply the amount of current needed. These resistor I must admit, it's been a number of years since I've seen a real Star Wars machine. What exactly was the effect of this deregulation ? -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 08:59:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:58:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:00:03 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Wells Gardner did regulate the output, based on feedback from the 180v >supply. Oh, right. There's a lead off the primary that WG runs back to a little three/four transistor regulator... The GO-7 transformer kicks back the same 180V off the primary, I was figuring to more or less cut and paste the regulator. Might not work with a 120Vdc potential to the HV transformer though-- maybe too much voltage for the junctions in the 3906/3904's? Hadn't thought about that before... >Amplifones use a completely different way of regulating their HV. The mysterious "Magnetic Correction Device" or whatever the hell it's called. ;-) >The Amplifone does fall out of regulation during the explosion scenes. >If you look at the +/-24v regulators used to regulate the inputs you'll >see they are bypassed with 50 ohm resistors. During the explosions, the >7824/7924 could not supply the amount of current needed. These resistor >supply the additional amount of current during current peaks, though >when they kick in, regulation is lost. Ahhh, I seem to remember some discussion about that now. It looks to me like the "easy" thing to do is replicate the Wells Gardner HV circuit making the following "adjustments": 1) cross transistors to more commonly available ones where appropriate 2) use GO-7 HV transformers and 2SD870 HOT 3) use isolated 120VAC supply to bring main supply to +120DC instead of +-25V 4) double check/adjust HV regulator to be tolerant of 120V potential (Probably be smart to see about getting rid of that 150V zener since they're a pain to find, drop it down to something a bit easier to find... I'm half-way tempted to bring in a WG HV cage and scan the PCB layout and just make "changes" with Photoshop and try etching a PCB that way. :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 09:27:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Duncan Brown in May 1980 "Coin Connection" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I just received a few old "Atari Coin Connection" newsletters, and spotted this in the May, 1980 edition: Asteroids Champ In the last issue of the Coin Connection, we reported a high score on Asteroids of 1,000,000 points. Well, records were meant to be broken, as the saying goes! Duncan Brown of Charlottesville, Virginia, broke that record on March 29. Duncan reported that he played one game of Asteroids for fifteen and one-half hours, scoring 7,200,620 points. When he quit playing, there were still twenty-two extra ships left. Duncan has been playing Asteroids since January at Noel's Sub Shop and Game Room near the University of Virginia. Before his record-breaking game, Duncan had spent alot of hard-earned money learning how to play Asteroids. Duncan's Asteroids technique is much the same as other expert players have reported. He leaves a couple of small asteroids on the screen so that the largers ones do not appear. He then places his space-ship on the side of the screen and waits for the enemy saucer to come out. The player has a distinct advantage over the enemy saucer because the saucer is usually not as agressive as the player. An Asteroids game modification is now available to help cut down on excessive player game times. This modification will make the enemy saucer more agressive. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 09:32:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:32:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Duncan Brown in May 1980 "Coin Connection" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:32:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, Oh come one...we all know what really happened. Duncan reprogrammed that Asteroids! 8^) 8^) 8^) Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 9:27 AM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Duncan Brown in May 1980 "Coin Connection" > > >I just received a few old "Atari Coin Connection" >newsletters, and spotted this in the May, 1980 >edition: > >Asteroids Champ > >In the last issue of the Coin Connection, we >reported a high score on Asteroids of 1,000,000 >points. Well, records were meant to be broken, >as the saying goes! > >Duncan Brown of Charlottesville, Virginia, >broke that record on March 29. Duncan reported >that he played one game of Asteroids for >fifteen and one-half hours, scoring 7,200,620 >points. When he quit playing, there were still >twenty-two extra ships left. > >Duncan has been playing Asteroids since January >at Noel's Sub Shop and Game Room near the >University of Virginia. Before his record-breaking >game, Duncan had spent alot of hard-earned money >learning how to play Asteroids. > >Duncan's Asteroids technique is much the same as >other expert players have reported. He leaves a >couple of small asteroids on the screen so that >the largers ones do not appear. He then places >his space-ship on the side of the screen and >waits for the enemy saucer to come out. The >player has a distinct advantage over the enemy >saucer because the saucer is usually not as >agressive as the player. > >An Asteroids game modification is now available >to help cut down on excessive player game times. >This modification will make the enemy saucer >more agressive. > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 10:44:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:44:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:45:07 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Clay, > >What did you ever find out about that new Murata flyback I sent you >(about a year ago now?) that I thought might have been a replacement for >the WG HV transformer? Hmmmm. I was looking at it and I don't think I ever really tried to put it through its paces... I'm not 100% sure how to tell what pins do what actually. We have a flyback tester here at work (one of the engineers used to repair TV's) so I can probably just do a ringing test on all the pins and map out a likely pinout from it. Short of tearing one apart-- anyone know a good way to figure out what goes where on an "unknown" pinout flyback transformer? >I know it is not a replacement, but if it can produce ~19Kv and you could >use for making up a HV replacement module, I can buy those for only $5 >each and probably cheaper in quantity (although I dont know how many are >available, probably at least 200). since the transformer would be the >most expensive part, that would DRASTICALLY reduce the price. That would be pretty neat. Even if you could only make 200 of 'em a $20-30 replacement HV supply could be pretty cool! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 10:51:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:50:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:51:56 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I must admit, it's been a number of years since I've seen a real Star Wars >machine. What exactly was the effect of this deregulation ? > >-Chris Fuzz! The vector lines get "fuzzy" like you're messing with the focus knob. Makes for a nice "explosion" though. ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 10:58:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:58:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:59:47 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Coolness... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Finding some neato stuff here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5322/hv2.html Stuff lacks regulation, but it's a nice super-simplification for learning it. ;-) Somebody (Dave something) sent me e-mail and says he's got the same project going (a replacement HV cage), so if he responds that he's far along and will definately finish I might bow out of this and work on something else... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 11:57:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:57:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:56:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199712021956.NAA22614@moe.works.ti.com> From: Michael Schulz To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In-Reply-To: (message from Clay Cowgill on Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:32:50 -0800) Subject: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >And I've got the Sega stuff pretty much wrapped up now, so it's this or >Nightmare next... :-) > Ok, I know it's not vector, but my vote is for Nightmare. I have a spare Food Fight boardset just waiting to be converted... :-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Schulz | Texas Instruments, SpecWorks Software Design Engineer | (972) 927-5847, mschulz@ti.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- The opinions and views expressed are my own, and do ------------- ----------- not necessarily reflect those of Texas Instruments Inc. ----------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 12:45:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:45:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:42:30 -0700 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Message-id: <348472B6.65F9@links.magenta.com> Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199712021956.NAA22614@moe.works.ti.com> Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Michael Schulz wrote: > > >And I've got the Sega stuff pretty much wrapped up now, so it's this or > >Nightmare next... :-) > > > Ok, I know it's not vector, but my vote is for Nightmare. I second the nomination! :-) jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 15:23:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:23:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348497D3.614F@erols.com> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:20:51 -0500 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) References: <199712021956.NAA22614@moe.works.ti.com> <348472B6.65F9@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Jess Askey wrote: > > Michael Schulz wrote: > > > > >And I've got the Sega stuff pretty much wrapped up now, so it's this or > > >Nightmare next... :-) > > > > > Ok, I know it's not vector, but my vote is for Nightmare. > > I second the nomination! :-) Hmmph! I'm interested in the Nightmare but I'd rather see the Cinematronics -> WG monitor hack first myself. Note Clay, this doesn't mean I'm not interested in FF -> Nightmare ;-) -- Kev Looking for a few good PCBs! mowerman@erols.com REMOVE THE "?" FROM MY E-MAIL http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Video game info page From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 15:38:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:38:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:38:13 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day, I'll second Kev's nomination for Cine->Atari BW/color (or Sega for that matter). Now what's this Nightmare game? (Putting on my asbesto suit...is this thing getting worn from use?) Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Kev[SMTP:mowerman?@erols.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 3:20 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) > >Jess Askey wrote: >> >> Michael Schulz wrote: >> > >> > >And I've got the Sega stuff pretty much wrapped up now, so it's this or >> > >Nightmare next... :-) >> > > >> > Ok, I know it's not vector, but my vote is for Nightmare. >> >> I second the nomination! :-) > >Hmmph! I'm interested in the Nightmare but I'd rather see the >Cinematronics -> WG monitor hack first myself. > >Note Clay, this doesn't mean I'm not interested in FF -> Nightmare ;-) > >-- >Kev Looking for a few good >PCBs! >mowerman@erols.com REMOVE THE "?" FROM MY >E-MAIL > >http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Video game info page > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 2 16:02:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:02:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:03:21 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >G'day, > >I'll second Kev's nomination for Cine->Atari BW/color (or Sega for that >matter). Now what's this Nightmare game? (Putting on my asbesto >suit...is this thing getting worn from use?) Nightmare is a prototype Atari arcade game that I got from an ex-Atari employee. It was done by GCC (Quantum and Food Fight) and is based on a Food Fight board (raster). I think it was to be a conversion kit for TRON (since it uses the same controls and screen orientation) but for some reason didn't make it out-- maybe too difficult to convert a TRON cabinet in the field?. Very cool game though-- nice graphics (twice the ROM of Food Fight), digitized sound, etc. I've been collecting parts to duplicate the thing as a kit. (Found the required ADPCM chips in a bunch of old Voice Response Unit motherboards last week, BTW!) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Tue Dec 2 23:51:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:51:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:51:32 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: list update / test Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aek (Al Kossow) I fixed a bunch of little things that were broken in the mail header. mail should come from vectorlist@spies.com now, and the reply line should be to the person who sent the message, not the whole group... From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 00:27:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:27:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348517A2.8CA24127@istar.com> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 00:26:10 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Monitor HV power... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: John Robertson Hi, Cay! What monitor was that Murata flyback used in? I should be able to provide you the pinout if it was used in a video game... John :-#)# Clay Cowgill wrote: > > >Clay, > > > >What did you ever find out about that new Murata flyback I sent you > >(about a year ago now?) that I thought might have been a replacement for > >the WG HV transformer? > > Hmmmm. I was looking at it and I don't think I ever really tried to put it > through its paces... I'm not 100% sure how to tell what pins do what > actually. We have a flyback tester here at work (one of the engineers used > to repair TV's) so I can probably just do a ringing test on all the pins > and map out a likely pinout from it. Short of tearing one apart-- anyone > know a good way to figure out what goes where on an "unknown" pinout > flyback transformer? > > >I know it is not a replacement, but if it can produce ~19Kv and you could > >use for making up a HV replacement module, I can buy those for only $5 > >each and probably cheaper in quantity (although I dont know how many are > >available, probably at least 200). since the transformer would be the > >most expensive part, that would DRASTICALLY reduce the price. > > That would be pretty neat. Even if you could only make 200 of 'em a $20-30 > replacement HV supply could be pretty cool! > > -Clay > > Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager > _______________________________________________________________________ > /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com > \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 10:10:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:09:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: list update / test Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:11:35 GMT Message-ID: <34869f96.1015009894@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:51:32 -0800 (PST), aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > >I fixed a bunch of little things that were broken in >the mail header. mail should come from=20 >vectorlist@spies.com now, and the reply line should >be to the person who sent the message, not the whole >group... =20 I'm disappointed! I've been trying to get all the other mailings lists I subscribe to, to use your default of replying to the mailing list! I thought that was totally cool! The times I need to reply to an individual as opposed to replying to the mailing list are at max only 1 out of 10, more likely something like 1 out of 50. I can deal with it, but I sure liked it the way it was. It's going to make replying a bit harder, and will probably lead to more responses that are not 'replies' which will mess up the nice tree structure that my mailreader uses. -Zonn (who now must go to the above message and copy 'vectorlist@spies.com' and move it up to the 'To:' slot.) <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 10:33:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:32:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" , "'zonn@zonn.com'" Cc: "'zonn@concentric.com'" Subject: RE: list update / test Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:32:52 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day Zonn (and all), Well, I was annoyed that anytime I wanted to make a conversation in vectorlist private (for stupid questions, ridiculous offers, begging for help, etc.) I'd have to paste in the person's email address to respond just to them. So I guess I like the change. I do see Zonn's point that if vectorlist is the default, then you'll see more traffic. And I think that's good with our bunch of people. We've had alot of trouble in the KLOV email list with parts of the conversation getting lost due to not using klov-team@vaps.org as the default email address to respond to. I think I may have a solution. In the past for vectorlist, whether you responded to everyone or responded to just the sender, vectorlist was put in the "To" field of the response. With yesterday's modifcation to the email list mechanism, responding to the sender becomes possible (but if you want to respond to the vectorlist then you can respond to everyone and you'll get both the vectorlist and the sender in the "To" field). Perhaps, Al could change something in the email list mechanism so that all emails going out to everyone have vectorlist in the "To" field and the sender in the "Cc" field. Thus by default all responses go to everyone, but if you'd like to respond just to the sender then you can respond to all and then remove the vectorlist email address to make things private! What do you think? Can't we all just get along? 8^) 8^) 8^) Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I use MS Exchange, and some of my reasoning might inadvertantly be based on this. If my suggestions conflict with how your mail reader works, then my apoligies in advance and I withdraw my suggestion. >---------- >From: zonn@zonn.com[SMTP:zonn@zonn.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:11 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Subject: Re: list update / test > >On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:51:32 -0800 (PST), aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) >wrote: > >> >>I fixed a bunch of little things that were broken in >>the mail header. mail should come from >>vectorlist@spies.com now, and the reply line should >>be to the person who sent the message, not the whole >>group... > >I'm disappointed! I've been trying to get all the other mailings lists >I subscribe to, to use your default of replying to the mailing list! > >I thought that was totally cool! The times I need to reply to an >individual as opposed to replying to the mailing list are at max only 1 >out of 10, more likely something like 1 out of 50. > >I can deal with it, but I sure liked it the way it was. It's going to >make replying a bit harder, and will probably lead to more responses >that are not 'replies' which will mess up the nice tree structure that >my mailreader uses. > >-Zonn (who now must go to the above message and copy >'vectorlist@spies.com' and move it up to the 'To:' slot.) > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 10:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:52:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: sso@dsc.com Subject: Re: list update / test Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:53:54 GMT Message-ID: <3485a795.1017056716@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:32:52 -0800, "Ozdemir, Steve" wrote: >G'day Zonn (and all), > >Well, I was annoyed that anytime I wanted to make a conversation in >vectorlist private (for stupid questions, ridiculous offers, begging for >help, etc.) I'd have to paste in the person's email address to respond >just to them. So I guess I like the change. So you really send more private email based on 'vectorlist' postings, than responses directed to 'vectorlist'? You are much more social than I am! >I do see Zonn's point that if vectorlist is the default, then you'll see >more traffic. And I think that's good with our bunch of people. We've >had alot of trouble in the KLOV email list with parts of the >conversation getting lost due to not using klov-team@vaps.org as the >default email address to respond to. > >I think I may have a solution. > >In the past for vectorlist, whether you responded to everyone or >responded to just the sender, vectorlist was put in the "To" field of >the response. With yesterday's modifcation to the email list mechanism, >responding to the sender becomes possible (but if you want to respond to >the vectorlist then you can respond to everyone and you'll get both the >vectorlist and the sender in the "To" field). That's done on other mailing lists, you end up with two copies of everything. >Perhaps, Al could change something in the email list mechanism so that >all emails going out to everyone have vectorlist in the "To" field and >the sender in the "Cc" field. Thus by default all responses go to >everyone, but if you'd like to respond just to the sender then you can >respond to all and then remove the vectorlist email address to make >things private! That seems reasonable. I use Agent and the way it used to worked, was fine. It's simple for me to open a pull down menu and reply to any of the fields. It sounds like your idea would work the way it use to, which works for me! >What do you think? Can't we all just get along? 8^) 8^) 8^) Your evoking my gag response here. ;^) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 11:06:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:06:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:06:32 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: test of header mod Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) if I did this right, the mail header reply to should be vectorlist and the CC should be from me (yea, I know the domain is wrong..) From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 11:13:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:13:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:12:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: list update / test In-Reply-To: <3485a795.1017056716@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" Most lists I'm on use Reply-To: to point back to the list. Pine, at least, asks if I want to send to the actual sender or the Reply-to address. ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 11:18:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:17:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: test of header mod Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:19:26 GMT Message-ID: <3485b069.1019317574@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:06:32 -0800 (PST), aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >if I did this right, the mail header reply to should be vectorlist >and the CC should be from me (yea, I know the domain is wrong..) Very cool! Works for me! -Zonn (an obnoxiously squeaky wheel) <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 11:18:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:18:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:18:03 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: Admin request of type /\bsubscribe\b/i at line 9 Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From mayo.edu!crhea Wed Dec 3 11:18:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu(really [129.176.100.75]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:17:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from sijer.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 3 Dec 97 13:16:56 -0600 Received: by sijer.Mayo.EDU (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA07395; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:16:57 -0600 From: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Message-Id: <199712031916.NAA07395@sijer.Mayo.EDU> Subject: Re: list update / test (fwd) To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:16:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forwarded message: > From vectorlist@spies.com Wed Dec 3 12:26:41 1997 > From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Subject: Re: list update / test > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:11:35 GMT > I'm disappointed! I've been trying to get all the other mailings lists > I subscribe to, to use your default of replying to the mailing list! > > I thought that was totally cool! The times I need to reply to an > individual as opposed to replying to the mailing list are at max only 1 > out of 10, more likely something like 1 out of 50. > > I can deal with it, but I sure liked it the way it was. It's going to > make replying a bit harder, and will probably lead to more responses > that are not 'replies' which will mess up the nice tree structure that > my mailreader uses. > > -Zonn (who now must go to the above message and copy > 'vectorlist@spies.com' and move it up to the 'To:' slot.) I agree! Since the "From:" line was changed, any replies go to the author, not the list. Also, in my mail package (elm on Unix), I used to be able to save the note to the folder "vectorlist". Now, it tries to save it to a folder with the sender's name. I have to manually type "vectorlist". I would rather have the old behavior too.... PS: Al's note came out with an incomplete From: line causing my system to append the default domain to the address. --- Cris ----------------------------------------------------------- Cristopher J. Rhea Mayo Foundation Research Computing Facility Guggenheim 1001B crhea@Mayo.EDU Rochester, MN 55905 Fax: (507) 266-4486 (507) 284-0587 ----------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 12:10:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:10:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:11:32 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hi everyone. Just a little probe for info here... I was thinking... Would anyone be interested in a sound board that was sort-of a mid-way compromise for Sega G-80 sound? I'll explain: The Universal Sound Board is pretty cool 'cause it sounds neat and works with Star Trek *and* Tac/Scan. That leaves Eliminator/Zektor with similar sound boards, and Space Fury the odd man out. So, I was thinking of maybe making a *simple* little sound board that maybe just has little microcontroller and an 8910 or two. Maybe a couple noise generators for engine sounds... Basically the idea is to make something that will produce sounds for elim/zektor/spacefury that will be "close" to the original sounds. Close enough that you can play the games and not feel like there's anything missing, but they obviously wouldn't be dead-on for any of the purists out there. ;-) Sound worthwhile to anyone? The other thought is to learn how to program the Universal Sound Board and make *that* make sounds for SF/ZK/EL. I like that 'cause it's nice and clean, but am a little intimidated to mess with it unless I have to. Comments? Here's another question. Anyone know how big the samples are for all the speech in Star Trek/Zektor/Space Fury (for something like MAME)? (I'm assuming 8bit 11khz audio.) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 12:26:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:26:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:25:59 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Here's another question. Anyone know how big the samples are for all the speech in Star Trek/Zektor/Space Fury (for something like MAME)? (I'm assuming 8bit 11khz audio.)" Space Fury 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb Star Trek 8 bit 22khz 1.0mb Zektor 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb the samples were created at 48khz 16bits and bandpass filtered prior to sample rate converison don't ask how I know :-) From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 12:33:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:33:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:32:08 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9712031432.ZM8174@calcite> In-Reply-To: "Christopher X. Candreva" "Re: list update / test" (Dec 3, 2:12pm) References: <199712032023.PAA28898@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: list update / test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mark Jenison I like the new way...I don't have to copy e-mails when I want to reply to just one person. Now my mailer works like this: Hit reply: Just that person Hit reply all: Entire news group Sounds like some people out there just need get into the '90's and get some decent mailers ;-) On Dec 3, 2:12pm, Christopher X. Candreva wrote: > Subject: Re: list update / test > > Most lists I'm on use Reply-To: to point back to the list. > > Pine, at least, asks if I want to send to the actual sender or the Reply-to > address. > > ========================================================== > Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 > WestNet Internet Services of Westchester > http://www.westnet.com/ > >-- End of excerpt from Christopher X. Candreva From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 13:51:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:51:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:52:28 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Space Fury 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb >Star Trek 8 bit 22khz 1.0mb >Zektor 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb > >the samples were created at 48khz 16bits and bandpass >filtered prior to sample rate converison They're all just voice-band stuff, no? Anyone have a convincing reason why I couldn't resample these to 8KHz? (I don't recall the frequency response of the SPO-250, but I doubt it's over 4KHz-- and even if it is, human voice energy rolls off real fast past 1.6KHz...) If I can fit 'em into 1Mbyte or less a "sample player" card is kind-of a no-brainer. (1Mbyte is my max "pain threshold" for EPROMs now-a-days.) Simple RLE compression would probably do pretty well on the samples too...) I'm thinking of a 2051 controller with 2 27C040's, 4 74ls193's, a DAC and some glue logic... The controller gets the sample commands from the G-80 I/O port, then parallel loads the start address of the appropriate sample in the cascaded counters (193's). Then with each strobe of an I/O line on the 2051 to the counters we get a new byte of sample data which can be decompressed and output to a DAC (just an R2R ladder with an output filter is probably fine). (If you don't care about the compression you can hook the DAC more of less directly to the EPROM.) The good bit about this is that it's small and gets away from the SPO-250 nicely. Any thoughts? Zonn-- you did this before, right? I did one back in college without the ability to address the start address of a sample, but it worked OK... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 14:31:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:30:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:31:32 GMT Message-ID: <3488dc06.1030483998@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:52:28 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: >>Space Fury 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb >>Star Trek 8 bit 22khz 1.0mb >>Zektor 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb >> >>the samples were created at 48khz 16bits and bandpass >>filtered prior to sample rate converison > >They're all just voice-band stuff, no? Anyone have a convincing reason = why >I couldn't resample these to 8KHz? (I don't recall the frequency = response >of the SPO-250, but I doubt it's over 4KHz-- and even if it is, human = voice >energy rolls off real fast past 1.6KHz...) > >If I can fit 'em into 1Mbyte or less a "sample player" card is kind-of a >no-brainer. (1Mbyte is my max "pain threshold" for EPROMs now-a-days.) >Simple RLE compression would probably do pretty well on the samples = too...) Nah, it works like sh*t, unless there is a lot of "true" silences (even the slightest noise keeps RLE from working). You might try ADPCM, go download the examples on the Microchip home page. They use a version of ADPCM that uses no floating point. As long as you stick to voice, ADPCM works well. Just don't try pumping any music through it. >I'm thinking of a 2051 controller with 2 27C040's, 4 74ls193's, a DAC = and >some glue logic... The controller gets the sample commands from the = G-80 >I/O port, then parallel loads the start address of the appropriate = sample >in the cascaded counters (193's). Then with each strobe of an I/O line = on >the 2051 to the counters we get a new byte of sample data which can be >decompressed and output to a DAC (just an R2R ladder with an output = filter >is probably fine). At these speed PWM works really well, is much cheaper, and using a processor dedicated to the job, could most likely be done completely in software. Though a 10bit PWM port like that in the PIC makes life easy. Once again refer to the PIC technote -- a fully functional speech synthesizer -- complete with schematic and source code. It might be just what you're looking for, as is. They even have PC based "C" software for creating the compressed image. All the work is done for you! -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 15:37:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:35:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:36:58 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Nah, it works like sh*t, unless there is a lot of "true" silences (even >the slightest noise keeps RLE from working). Hmmmm. Good point. >You might try ADPCM, go download the examples on the Microchip home >page. They use a version of ADPCM that uses no floating point. As long >as you stick to voice, ADPCM works well. Just don't try pumping any >music through it. Actually, ADPCM is happy with music. Music goes to hell in a handbasket really fast if it runs through any sort of CELP or Truespeech, or DSVD type coders (like LPC etc.). 3 or 4 bit ADPCM is good compression too-- and like you said-- Microchip has source on their webpage. Seems like it used the 16Cxx parts? (I looked at that a while back when researching how to replicate Nightmare, since it uses 4bit ADPCM for samples.) (We use ADPCM on our modems for incoming/outgoing messages-- works fine with music/tonal content. If you try to play hold-music over a DSVD type voice coder you get cool (but useless) "demons of hell" noises.) I might just do a delta+key type thing. Have to analyze the data and look at it. Basically you just code two "deltas" per byte, each capable of going +/- seven steps. If you can't get where you need it with the delta, you send a "key" (like 0xff) that says the next byte is an absolute value. Depending on the nature of the data you can get either 2:1 compression, or 1:2 expansion. ;-) If I can get the samples to fit "raw" into 1Mbyte I'd probably not even bother with compression in all honesty... >At these speed PWM works really well, is much cheaper, and using a >processor dedicated to the job, could most likely be done completely in >software. Though a 10bit PWM port like that in the PIC makes life easy. >Once again refer to the PIC technote -- a fully functional speech >synthesizer -- complete with schematic and source code. It might be >just what you're looking for, as is. They even have PC based "C" >software for creating the compressed image. All the work is done for >you! Well, hey, I haven't looked at that one yet. Cool! Anybody else have any ideas? I'd like to keep it cheap and easily assembled (common parts) to compete with just bank-selecting more ROM from an old Speech board. (Judging from the number of dead speech boards/missing SPO250's in the world though I can imagine we'll need a replacement at some point.) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 15:43:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:43:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712032341.RAA22006@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: <3488dc06.1030483998@tommy.doctord.com> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 17:43:07 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: <3488dc06.1030483998@tommy.doctord.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > Once again refer to the PIC technote -- a fully functional speech > synthesizer -- complete with schematic and source code. It might be > just what you're looking for, as is. They even have PC based "C" > software for creating the compressed image. All the work is done for > you! Forgive me, but this solution lacks the distinctive "retro-coolness" factor of figuring out how the universal sound board works and hacking that. If you just want to play the games, use a PC emulator. I get a kick out of using as much original hardware as possible. Put another way, Clay's Sega menu system kicks serious ass partially because he hacked it out the same way the Sega coders did 15 years ago. As the commercial say "Gotta feel the love..." To code the beast is to know the beast. Of course, it's easy to offer advice when you're not the one pouring over the schematics reverse engineering the beast. I bow to the demigods who shed light on these historical artifacts and look forward to hacking these things in the future. Ray From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 21:29:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:28:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:28:22 -0500 (EST) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <971204002821_-1104556095@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Ms. Gardneraphone Monitor Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Dangerwil@aol.com Well, It was time to monkey with all those junk parts. I took an old nasty GO7 tube from a ms. pac. Swapped the end plug and put on a Ampliphone deflection coil. Stuffed this into a spare WG 6100 chassis. I had to monkey quite a bit with the convergence, but I got it really really close as long as the picture is adjusted about 1 inch in from the edges of the tube. The picture looks just as good as the Ampliphone tube that I have running on a WG in my ROTJ. Bright thick vector lines, not fuzzy or blurred. The pac tube was really burned in but behind that thick black glass, you can't even see it. In self test, the green box is still somewhat bowed, but no one has ever mentioned it, that plays the game... Anyways it is possible, next time I am going to take the socket off the neckboard and replace it with one from an old GO7, swapping the plug is a real pain. Bill From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 23:09:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:09:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34867373.6103@mail.idt.net> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:10:11 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 Clay Cowgill wrote: > > >Space Fury 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb > >Star Trek 8 bit 22khz 1.0mb > >Zektor 8 bit 22khz 1.2mb > > > >the samples were created at 48khz 16bits and bandpass > >filtered prior to sample rate converison > > They're all just voice-band stuff, no? Anyone have a convincing reason why > I couldn't resample these to 8KHz? (I don't recall the frequency response > of the SPO-250, but I doubt it's over 4KHz-- and even if it is, human voice > energy rolls off real fast past 1.6KHz...) I dont know anything about all that digital logic stuff you guys would use to make it work..I'd like too... but in regular audio applications you basically set your sample rate by how high your highest frequency will be. The rule, or the 'Nyquest Thoerem' is that you must sample at at least 2 times the highest fyrequency recorded (to sound accurate).For example CD players sample at 44.1 KHz which is roughly twice the higest frequency humans can hear. Digital voice recorders usually sample @ 32khz (I think a few first-generation DAT decks did too). If you do not follow this rule you will get false decending harmonics, which will sound bad. nobodys knows why but it just happens. I'm assuming you know this cause you said you doubt it is over 4khz. If this is the case, then a 8khz sampling rate will work. It is cutting it close, but shouldn't make a difference. It would be a good idea to add a filter to block anything above 4Khz if you want to sample at 8Khz. Sampling at 8Khz probably wont sound the best though. Of course the faster you sample, the better it will sound. There are HD recorders out now that can sample at 96Khz. Holy gigibytes Batman! Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!vectorlist Wed Dec 3 23:56:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:54:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:53:37 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... In-Reply-To: <34867373.6103@mail.idt.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, mayday19 wrote: > I dont know anything about all that digital logic stuff you guys would > use to make it work..I'd like too... but in regular audio applications > you basically set your sample rate by how high your highest frequency > will be. The rule, or the 'Nyquest Thoerem' is that you must sample at at > least 2 times the highest fyrequency recorded (to sound accurate).For > example CD players sample at 44.1 KHz which is roughly twice the higest > frequency humans can hear. Digital voice recorders usually sample @ > 32khz (I think a few first-generation DAT decks did too). If you do not > follow this rule you will get false decending harmonics, which will sound > bad. nobodys knows why but it just happens. Not true. We're getting off topic here, but the Nyquist criterion is very well understood. Sampling below the Nyquist frequency will result in aliasing of the signal like you alluded to. It makes more sense in the frequency domain, and I'd suggest consulting and Digital Signal Processing Textbook ("Digital Signal Processing" by Alan V. Oppenheim and Ronald W. Schafer is still regarded as one of the "bibles" of DSP, although it's a bit dated (1975) but does a good job of describing this, as do lots of other books) or I'll be happy to explain it in email. > I'm assuming you know this cause you said you doubt it is over 4khz. If > this is the case, then a 8khz sampling rate will work. It is cutting it > close, but shouldn't make a difference. It would be a good idea to add a > filter to block anything above 4Khz if you want to sample at 8Khz. > Sampling at 8Khz probably wont sound the best though. Of course the > faster you sample, the better it will sound. There are HD recorders out > now that can sample at 96Khz. Holy gigibytes Batman! 96 kHz is, for some reason, catching on as the new audio standard. Sampling above the Nyquist frequency generally does not make something sound better. Equipment often boasts huge oversampling rates 128X, etc because they use oversampled converters in them (i.e. Delta Sigma) which have better performance, but for entirely different reasons (I can get into this in email too, because it's what I do for a living :-) but it's way off topic for the vectorlist.) Every part that is coming out of our group (Digital Audio) these days supports up to 96 kHz sampling. Talking over the telephone is basically 8kHz so I see no reason why it wouldn't work for storing the voice samples at that sampling frequency. Since it looks like Al's already got the samples, all that would need to be done is another sample-rate-conversion. Darn, too bad this didn't happen in a few months, as we're about ready to release an asynchronous sample rate converter chip. I love putting Crystal stuff to work in important projects (i.e. Video Game stuff ;-) ) Joe From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 03:27:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:26:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3486AFEE.3050@mail.idt.net> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 05:28:14 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu wrote: > Not true. We're getting off topic here, but the Nyquist criterion > is very well understood. Sampling below the Nyquist frequency will result > in aliasing of the signal like you alluded to. This is off topic for the vectorlist..so please enlighten me in E-Mail Joe.. This is interesting, and if you do it for a living you should probably know your Nyquist :> (not like I might be able to follow you or anything, I dont use digital on a day-to-day basis :) When I was taught digital a while ago my teacher informed me that even SONY engineers could not figure out why the aliasing actually occurred...I guess he was not very well informed! (of course he was just an audio engineer who probably knew digital just well enough to teach a class on it :) Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 04:20:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:20:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: dpage@se.mediaone.net Message-Id: <199712041219.HAA22758@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:19:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Ms. Gardneraphone Monitor CC: Dangerwil@aol.com In-reply-to: <971204002821_-1104556095@mrin44.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dpage@se.mediaone.net You did not explain that you converted your rotj to a sw. They are probably completely confused by now. ROTJ with vectors? : ) Dave From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 04:59:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:59:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:58:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... In-Reply-To: <3486AFEE.3050@mail.idt.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, mayday19 wrote: > This is off topic for the vectorlist..so please enlighten me in E-Mail Sure -- leave us all in suspense ! It may be off topic, but since it only appears it would genereate oh 4 or 6 more messages, I for one would rather know the answer ! -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 07:38:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:37:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:06:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: from "Christopher X. Candreva" at Dec 4, 97 07:58:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <3486d5120.4c0@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 549 Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" > > This is off topic for the vectorlist..so please enlighten me in E-Mail > Sure -- leave us all in suspense ! > > It may be off topic, but since it only appears it would genereate oh 4 or 6 > more messages, I for one would rather know the answer ! Yeah! Its not like this list generates a LOT of traffic. Kurt /* * This version of Kurt Mahan is currently being evaluated. Words he speaks * are those of him only and not those of Novell or anybody else. * * Novell Java Technologies R&D Group * * Kurt Mahan * kmahan@novell.com */ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 09:44:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:44:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712041710.LAA21059@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 11:12:29 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > > This is off topic for the vectorlist..so please enlighten me in E-Mail > > Sure -- leave us all in suspense ! Yeesh! I guess today's schools don't get into Nyquist stuff anymore? ;-) To have a prayer of reproducing a signal, the Nyquist criteria says you need to sample at at least double the highest frequency in the source signal, otherwise you get aliasing. Practical example: TV dude has a shirt with horizontal bands. As the camera zooms out, the shirt goes nuts and large bands start to appear. In this case, the "signal" is the pattern of stripes on the shirt, and the sampling is the vertical pixel spacing on the TV. As the spacing between the stripes on the shirt gets to be less than the pixel spacing on the TV, aliasing starts. Aliasing folds high frequency components into low frequncy components. That's why the "stripes" appear to get huge. This is *extremely* well understood. The mathematics are exceedingly straight forward, esp. for those of us that still think in Fourier space. Their are numerous applications that take advantage of this folding phenomena to enable precision work (take impossibly high frequencies and fold them into a range where they can be readily observed) So why did the original CD players sound like a dog shitting in a tin can? (circa 1984) The sampling rate on CDs is ~44kHz, which is ~2x the limit of most audio systems (20kHz). The problem was not aliasing, but in the generation (aka synthesis) of the analog signals. To a crude approximation, a nice sine wave signal at 20kHz would get reproduced as a nice square wave signal at 20kHz. Guess what. Square waves sound like a dog shitting in a tin can. How to deal with this easily? (at least with state of the shelf DACs circa 1985) Over sampling. In a grossly simplified view, oversampling adds additional stair steps to the square signal, making it more "analog" like. Apply a little analog filtering to smooth out the edges, and presumably you have a nice signal. Apply too much, and things sound like a dog shitting in a swimming pool (all muddy). This is where the art of audio design comes in, and why I blew $1k for a Nakamichi CD player back in 1984...everything else sounded like shit with a bad hang over. DACs today are *amazing* in comparison and I bow to the circuit gods that make these things work (my wife used to work as a minion for Analog Devices, and the designers were treated as gods) My read from the thread so far: Nyquist and aliasing are *extremely* well understood. Idealized synthesis of analog signals from digital sources with non-ideal components is less so, esp. for us golden ear types. For retro game applications, if you notice these things, it's time to crack a beer and get a life ;-) ;-) Now to sit back and have the real engineers remind me why I'm in management now ;-) Ray From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 10:21:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:19:20 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:20:31 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Ms. Gardneraphone Monitor Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Well, > > It was time to monkey with all those junk parts. I took an old nasty GO7 >tube from a ms. pac. Swapped the end plug and put on a Ampliphone deflection >coil. Stuffed this into a spare WG 6100 chassis. Heh-heh. Cool. Ok, so who's up to try to find a 25" (27"? :-) tube with similar gun and HV supply voltages and try that transplant? *grin* -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 11:34:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:31:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:32:24 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I'm assuming you know this cause you said you doubt it is over 4khz. If >this is the case, then a 8khz sampling rate will work. It is cutting it >close, but shouldn't make a difference. It would be a good idea to add a >filter to block anything above 4Khz if you want to sample at 8Khz. >Sampling at 8Khz probably wont sound the best though. Of course the >faster you sample, the better it will sound. There are HD recorders out >now that can sample at 96Khz. Holy gigibytes Batman! Yeah, Mr. Nyquist was the reason I was picking 8KHz. I checked the datasheets last night on the SP0250 and it's max output bandwidth rolls off at 5KHz. (At pretty ucky S/N and Dynamic Range numbers too...) Since it's synthesized voice content anyway most anything over 2KHz are probably harmonics in the first place... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 11:39:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:36:56 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Yeah, Mr. Nyquist was the reason I was picking 8KHz. I checked the datasheets last night on the SP0250 and it's max output bandwidth rolls off at 5KHz. (At pretty ucky S/N and Dynamic Range numbers too...) Since it's synthesized voice content anyway most anything over 2KHz are probably harmonics in the first place..." yucky is putting it mildly. the sound and speech system is REALLY noisy in these games.. From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 11:54:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:52:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:53:47 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega Speech - SP0250/SP0256 Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Ok a while back someone was talking to me about possibly using an SP0256 in place of an SP0250. Who was it? :-) I got to looking this possibility last night. And you know what? It looks possible. The SP0250 (like Sega uses) has an 8-bit parallel interface. You place data at the bus and strobe a "Data Present" pin. You do this with 15 bytes which the SP0250 uses as a single frame of sound. The SP0256 has an internat ROM that contains the speech "frames" for an English-language type allophone set. There are address lines that select one of 64 allophones or pauses that when sequenced make up words. So far so good. The interesting part is that the datasheets for the SP0256 state that it supports LPC, formant, and allophone synthesis. Curious. Looking at the block diagram, the SP0256 has facilities that allow a serial bitstream to be input to the part INSTEAD OF the built in allophone tables. (Hmmmmm...) The SP0250 and SP0256 are clearly relatives-- they share the same output specifications, the same number of voicing coefficients, and the same clock rates. Soooo, here's where it gets interesting... The SP0256 *might* have 2 more registers than the SP0250. Kinda hard to tell from the somewhat sketchy info available on them. The SP0256 also supports an external serial voice ROM that can bypass the internal allophone tables. I think this is probably a functional equivalent of an SP0250 with external parallel ROMs feeding it data.  So here's the idea: 1) figure out the timing relationship between the serial input on the SP0256 and the Serial ROM "control" lines. There is something that goes on with the address getting shifted out as a 16bit serial stream as well.. Does anyone have anything that uses an SP0256 chip with an external SERIAL speech ROM? Can I borrow it? ;-) 2) The SP0250 has a test mode that will output a "serial stream" from the internal bus. Capturing this while playing samples from the sega games might be compatible with the SP0256's serial input. (Kind-of a stretch, but it could happen.) If the timing for the serial input to the SP0256 can be figured out, we might be able to just take the raw data from the sega speech board, shift it out serially to the SP0256 and see if it works. It might. Knowing more about the protocols involved I'm positive it could work (maybe with some re-arrangement of the data needed), but this might just have to do for now. ;-) So... Anyone have any information on the SP0256's serial voice ROMs? (Or an old product that might use them?) Thanks, -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 13:57:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:54:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712042154.AA157132452@firewall.dofasco.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:46:52 EST From: Local delivery agent To: Subject: LOCAL delivery error X-Report-Type: Nondelivery; boundary="> Error description:" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Local delivery agent Note: this message was generated automatically. An error was detected while processing the enclosed message. A list of the affected recipients follows. This list is in a special format that allows software like LISTSERV to automatically take action on incorrect addresses; you can safely ignore the numeric codes. --> Error description: Error-For: mike_ranger@qis.dofasco.ca Error-Code: 3 Error-Text: No such local user Error-End: 1 error detected ------------------------------ Rejected message ------------------------------ Received: from firewall.dofasco.ca by PCSDAS.DOFASCO.CA (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:36:14 EST Received: by firewall.dofasco.ca; id AA022924468; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:41:08 -0500 Received: from goonsquad.spies.com(206.67.152.109) by firewall.dofasco.ca via smap (3.2) id xma002285; Thu, 4 Dec 97 14:41:06 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:36:56 -0800 (PST) From: aek@dofasco.ca (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek@dofasco.ca (Al Kossow) "Yeah, Mr. Nyquist was the reason I was picking 8KHz. I checked the datasheets last night on the SP0250 and it's max output bandwidth rolls off at 5KHz. (At pretty ucky S/N and Dynamic Range numbers too...) Since it's synthesized voice content anyway most anything over 2KHz are probably harmonics in the first place..." yucky is putting it mildly. the sound and speech system is REALLY noisy in these games.. From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 13:58:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:56:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712042155.AA158572546@firewall.dofasco.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:47:30 EST From: Local delivery agent To: Subject: LOCAL delivery error X-Report-Type: Nondelivery; boundary="> Error description:" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Local delivery agent Note: this message was generated automatically. An error was detected while processing the enclosed message. A list of the affected recipients follows. This list is in a special format that allows software like LISTSERV to automatically take action on incorrect addresses; you can safely ignore the numeric codes. --> Error description: Error-For: mike_ranger@qis.dofasco.ca Error-Code: 3 Error-Text: No such local user Error-End: 1 error detected ------------------------------ Rejected message ------------------------------ Received: from firewall.dofasco.ca by PCSDAS.DOFASCO.CA (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:37:49 EST Received: by firewall.dofasco.ca; id AA023704558; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:42:38 -0500 Received: from goonsquad.spies.com(206.67.152.109) by firewall.dofasco.ca via smap (3.2) id xma002366; Thu, 4 Dec 97 14:42:18 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:31:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:32:24 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I'm assuming you know this cause you said you doubt it is over 4khz. If >this is the case, then a 8khz sampling rate will work. It is cutting it >close, but shouldn't make a difference. It would be a good idea to add a >filter to block anything above 4Khz if you want to sample at 8Khz. >Sampling at 8Khz probably wont sound the best though. Of course the >faster you sample, the better it will sound. There are HD recorders out >now that can sample at 96Khz. Holy gigibytes Batman! Yeah, Mr. Nyquist was the reason I was picking 8KHz. I checked the datasheets last night on the SP0250 and it's max output bandwidth rolls off at 5KHz. (At pretty ucky S/N and Dynamic Range numbers too...) Since it's synthesized voice content anyway most anything over 2KHz are probably harmonics in the first place... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 15:31:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:29:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Cc: "'ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu'" Subject: Tempest fix Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:28:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Just to let people know how my Tempest problems worked out, Scott Swazey spent an hour or two on the phone with me helping me diagnose my deflection problem. He was quite patient when I confused the four SG1495's while taking reading, so my hat is off to him! I've describe my symptoms before, so I'll just summarize by saying that I seem to loose the bottom half of the screen (and it wasn't the monitor because I checked the boards in another Tempest). I'd suspected the opamps (since I've found them been bad before), but after replacing all four I still had the same symptom of half a screen? At this point I thought maybe XREF might be high, and if the voltage was stable and used as a reference for deflection would explain the scrunched line. But Joe (and others on the vectorlist) quickly showed me that this signal was used by the DAC and not the output stage of the deflection circuit. So I moved on to the analog switch figuring that maybe I was seeing a similar failure as Joe did on his Lunar Lander (but on just one axis). Scott quickly eliminated that as the problem, and after having me check the YOUT signal at various points along the circuit (at opamp outputs for the most part) narrowed the search to the four SG1495's, since the first pair of opamps were producing reasonable results and the second pair of opamps produced a goofy YOUT. Further investigation by grounding XCOR (this is where I started confusing A/B 12, A/B 13, C12 and C13) showed predictable results. And XCOR and YCOR both gave reasonable readings, so the SG1495 at C13 was the prime suspect! All that socketing of opamps paid off at this point by allowing me to quickly bypass C13 by feeding the output of the first pair of opamps into the second....and presto....a full (albeit smaller) picture! And swapping another SG1495 into C13 completed the repair! Again, many thanks to Scott for taking time out of his busy schedule to help me deduce this problem with my limitted test equipment (a pocket DMM)! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - For those of you who cringe at where I'm getting my SG1495 and other parts, I've scavenging off of a bad Tempest board to save this Tempest board and two other Tempest boards. From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 17:58:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:56:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <48BBF3423C34D111A67700805F19999264B948@misnts1.dalsemi.com> From: Benny Parker To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: TEST SUBJECT Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:55:44 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Benny Parker Just testing my connection to this list. Thanks benny parker From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 18:46:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:44:26 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BD00FC.E6360360@liv01.tir.com> From: Frank Palazzolo To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Sega Speech - SP0250/SP0256 (long) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:38:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Frank Palazzolo It was me. I'm currently working with Ron Carlson, who was the project head for the design of the Mattel Intellivoice, to reverse engineer and emulate the Intellivoice Module. It is based around an SP0256, along with a Parallel in/Serial out FIFO chip called the SPB640, which feeds the SP0256 with serial data. In this way, it acts like one of the GI Serial ROMS. My hope is to emulate the SP0256 for the Intellivision and the SP0250 for "another major emulator project" :) The SP0256 does have the same digital filter stage as the SP0250, from what I can tell. However, the serial data going to it is not simply the coefficent data. It is a mix of instructions and immediate data for the 4-bit micro in the SP0256. I have not yet acquired the instruction set and data format info from Ron yet, nor the details of the serial clocking. However, he has promised me both. He has a 100 page programming manual for the SP0256!! It does support all of the synthesis modes mentioned. The instruction set has 16 instructions including register loading, register deltas, jumps, and a single level stack. The Sega speech data should be able to be converted into this (SP0256 compressed) data, once the format is learned. I've currently extracted the SP0256 samples from the INTV "Space Spartans" cartridge, and plan to extract the "SP0250 Space Fury" data next. Clay, if you want to share info on this stuff I'll give you everything you have if you'll do the same.. :) One more note regaring Mr. Nyquist. The Intellivoice takes the SP0256 output and runs in through one impressive analog filter. It is a 5-pole elliptical low-pass implemented with generalized impedance converters. Here are the design criteria...(fixed pitch font warning) > loss frequency > nominal min max > high-pass rollofff -6 dB / octave 100 Hz 90 110 > below 200 Hz > low end reference point 0 dB 400 Hz 360 440 > low-pass rolloff -3 dB / octave > end of pass band about -6 dB 4200 Hz roughly > break point from pass band -12 dB 4340 Hz 3890 4460 > stop band -44 dB 4890 Hz 4340 5370 > stop-band rolloff -120 dB / octave "brickwall" > first major null -60 dB min 5000 Hz 4950 5050 > second null -60 dB min 6810 Hz If you want to see a schematic of this or just follow along with the reverse-engineering of the Intellivoice, my web site is coming together at http://www.2bits.simplenet.com/ Thanks, Frank Palazzolo ---------- From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:clayc@diamondmm.com] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 1997 2:53 PM To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega Speech - SP0250/SP0256 Ok a while back someone was talking to me about possibly using an SP0256 in place of an SP0250. Who was it? :-) I got to looking this possibility last night. And you know what? It looks possible. The SP0250 (like Sega uses) has an 8-bit parallel interface. You place data at the bus and strobe a "Data Present" pin. You do this with 15 bytes which the SP0250 uses as a single frame of sound. The SP0256 has an internat ROM that contains the speech "frames" for an English-language type allophone set. There are address lines that select one of 64 allophones or pauses that when sequenced make up words. So far so good. The interesting part is that the datasheets for the SP0256 state that it supports LPC, formant, and allophone synthesis. Curious. Looking at the block diagram, the SP0256 has facilities that allow a serial bitstream to be input to the part INSTEAD OF the built in allophone tables. (Hmmmmm...) The SP0250 and SP0256 are clearly relatives-- they share the same output specifications, the same number of voicing coefficients, and the same clock rates. Soooo, here's where it gets interesting... The SP0256 *might* have 2 more registers than the SP0250. Kinda hard to tell from the somewhat sketchy info available on them. The SP0256 also supports an external serial voice ROM that can bypass the internal allophone tables. I think this is probably a functional equivalent of an SP0250 with external parallel ROMs feeding it data.  So here's the idea: 1) figure out the timing relationship between the serial input on the SP0256 and the Serial ROM "control" lines. There is something that goes on with the address getting shifted out as a 16bit serial stream as well.. Does anyone have anything that uses an SP0256 chip with an external SERIAL speech ROM? Can I borrow it? ;-) 2) The SP0250 has a test mode that will output a "serial stream" from the internal bus. Capturing this while playing samples from the sega games might be compatible with the SP0256's serial input. (Kind-of a stretch, but it could happen.) If the timing for the serial input to the SP0256 can be figured out, we might be able to just take the raw data from the sega speech board, shift it out serially to the SP0256 and see if it works. It might. Knowing more about the protocols involved I'm positive it could work (maybe with some re-arrangement of the data needed), but this might just have to do for now. ;-) So... Anyone have any information on the SP0256's serial voice ROMs? (Or an old product that might use them?) Thanks, -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 19:58:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:56:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <48BBF3423C34D111A67700805F19999264B94B@misnts1.dalsemi.com> From: Benny Parker To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: XY Monitors ? Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:56:05 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Benny Parker I have a working Tempest UR. The monitor has a broken neck. We are all convinced there are more XY games than XY monitors RGVAC is loaded with people needing a way to run XY games. People constantly ask how to run XY games on RGB, or TV. (ASBESTOS ON) How about this for a solution. 1. MAME emulates the avgdvg section of the Tempest board. 2. Passively get opcodes/data lines from the appropriate places. 3. Read them into the PC thru a serial port or EPP. 4. Asynchronously have the PC execute the opcodes. I realize there are some technological hurdles, and have thought this out quite a bit. Since this group is the premier vector group anywhere, I value your opinions. If this draws a LOT of heat, you may email me direct and we can discuss my thoughts off-line. It does involve the avg code in MAME and a PC. I don't think any extra circuitry need be placed in the PC. Thanks Benny Parker From spies.com!vectorlist Thu Dec 4 23:09:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:07:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: XY Monitors ? Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:07:33 GMT Message-ID: <3487a68e.1784428@smtp.zonn.com> References: <48BBF3423C34D111A67700805F19999264B94B@misnts1.dalsemi.com> In-Reply-To: <48BBF3423C34D111A67700805F19999264B94B@misnts1.dalsemi.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:56:05 -0600, Benny Parker = wrote: >I have a working Tempest UR. The monitor has a broken neck. >We are all convinced there are more XY games than XY monitors > RGVAC is loaded with people needing a way to run XY games. >People constantly ask how to run XY games on RGB, or TV. > > (ASBESTOS ON) >How about this for a solution. >1. MAME emulates the avgdvg section of the Tempest board. >2. Passively get opcodes/data lines from the appropriate places. >3. Read them into the PC thru a serial port or EPP. >4. Asynchronously have the PC execute the opcodes. > >I realize there are some technological hurdles, and have thought this >out quite a bit. >Since this group is the premier vector group anywhere, I value your >opinions. >If this draws a LOT of heat, you may email me direct and we can discuss >my thoughts off-line. >It does involve the avg code in MAME and a PC. I don't think any extra >circuitry need be >placed in the PC. Thanks Benny Parker What's the point in running the Tempest board, just run the emulator. = You'd be better off wiring up the spin knob to the mouse port and running the whole game off the PC. It will never look "just like a Tempest" because of the aliasing between = the absolute refresh rate of a raster monitor (60 to 90hz - or so) and the refresh of a vector = monitor (draw a line whenever you want, just do it fast enough to reduce flicker). You end up with = double, or skipped images on the raster monitor. Also, the vectors on a vector monitor can be up to a hundred times = brighter than a raster screen (according to Atari, or was that a Sega manual?), a smoked glass over a = raster monitor will never looks as nice and will probably be unreadable during the day. -Zonn From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 01:34:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:32:27 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3487E698.42B7@mail.idt.net> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 03:33:44 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: <199712041710.LAA21059@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 Ray Ghanbari wrote: > > You wrote: > > > This is off topic for the vectorlist..so please enlighten me in E-Mail > > > > Sure -- leave us all in suspense ! OK, I figured I should have left it alone.. please post it if you ever decide to type it in Joe. :> hey, Im learnin' stuff here so this is cool. let me dig a little deeper.. > Yeesh! I guess today's schools don't get into Nyquist stuff anymore? ;-) Not deep enough I guess... > Practical example: > > TV dude has a shirt with horizontal bands. As the camera zooms out, the shirt > goes nuts and large bands start to appear. In this case, the "signal" is the > pattern of stripes on the shirt, and the sampling is the vertical pixel spacing > on the TV. As the spacing between the stripes on the shirt gets to be less > than the pixel spacing on the TV, aliasing starts. Aliasing folds high > frequency components into low frequncy components. That's why the "stripes" > appear to get huge. But wont aliasing on a TV screen occur before (or in conjunction with) that period because of the interlaced signal? (sorry....) > Guess what. Square waves sound like a dog shitting in a tin > can. man, now I know what that sound is.. :> > How to deal with this easily? (at least with state of the shelf DACs circa > 1985) Over sampling. In a grossly simplified view, oversampling adds > additional stair steps to the square signal, making it more "analog" >like. so this is part of Quantizing then? I though oversampling was just for aiding error correction at playback... in conjunction with that process that scatters the data acoss the disc so a scratch will not wipe out a good chunk of the data (what was this process called again?) Speaking of scratches..that is kinda like how minidisc's compression works... they added a reeeally well designed error correction circuit and just didn't record every 5th, 10th, and 15th bit. > Apply a little analog filtering to smooth out the edges, and presumably >you > have a nice signal. Apply too much, and things sound like a dog shitting in a > swimming pool (all muddy). I thought there was just another low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter after the D/A convertor. > Now to sit back and have the real engineers remind me why I'm in >management now ;-) and laugh at me and my infinite knowledge. :> Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 05:05:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:03:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:02:52 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... In-Reply-To: <3487E698.42B7@mail.idt.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, mayday19 wrote: > OK, I figured I should have left it alone.. please post it if you ever > decide to type it in Joe. :> Ugh...someone please tell me why I'm reading my email/newsgroups when I have a big project due ~3pm :-( Anyways... > > How to deal with this easily? (at least with state of the shelf DACs circa > > 1985) Over sampling. In a grossly simplified view, oversampling adds > > additional stair steps to the square signal, making it more "analog" > >like. > > so this is part of Quantizing then? No, quantizing is the "Resolution" of those stair steps (i.e. how many different places they can be. There are only a finite number of digital values that you can quantize to. Oversampling will not effect the quantization process at all. When you're not dealing with an oversampled converter, I don't see any inherent benefit of oversampling other than to make the design of your final, analog low-pass filter after your DAC easier (i.e. lower order.) Probably not worth schleping around all the additional samples, as I think the stuff in our chips is 2nd or 3rd order Butterworth (i.e. pretty straightforward) anyways (No, you don't all have to go sign NDAs, that stuff is in our datasheets ;-) ) > I though oversampling was just for aiding error correction at playback... > in conjunction with that process that scatters the data acoss the disc so > a scratch will not wipe out a good chunk of the data (what was this > process called again?) Ahhh, could be. I'm not too familiar with that kind of stuff. > > Apply a little analog filtering to smooth out the edges, and presumably > >you > > have a nice signal. Apply too much, and things sound like a dog shitting in a > > swimming pool (all muddy). > > I thought there was just another low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter after > the D/A convertor. There is, but its purpose isn't to prevent aliasing. Aliasing can't occur in D -> A conversion. If you go through the math, basically that low-pass filter replaces all the "sharp corners" of the stairstep analog waveform out of the DAC with sync functions (basically sin(x)/x), which, if you sampled the signal corrrectly, will all add up to give you the proper (i.e. non-aliased) waveform. I probably just confused you more, so I should probably just keep my mouth shut in the future..... Joe From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 05:13:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:11:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:11:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: XY Monitors ? In-Reply-To: <3487a68e.1784428@smtp.zonn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" > On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:56:05 -0600, Benny Parker wrote: > > >I have a working Tempest UR. The monitor has a broken neck. > >We are all convinced there are more XY games than XY monitors I've read a number of posts here about people who have transplanted new tubes into old XY monitors. I'm almost certain one of them was a Wells-Gardner. Frankly, after having worked on my 2 monitors (Electrohomoe in an Asteroids Cocktail, and WG in a Tempest), I think they are almost unkillable (as in it's hopeless, throw it out). About the only impossible to find parts are the flybacks -- and even those you can have custom-wound - if you are willing to pay for it. There are replacement picture tubes available from what I've read. The components on the boards are all replaceable. If you manage to fryt he traces on the board, there aren't that many to jump, or even to make a new one. Have I missed something ? Someone tell tell Benny where to get a replacement tube! :-) -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 09:14:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:12:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:13:15 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: Sega Speech - SP0250/SP0256 (long) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >It was me. I'm currently working with Ron Carlson, who was the >project head for the design of the Mattel Intellivoice, to >reverse engineer and emulate the Intellivoice Module. It is >based around an SP0256, along with a Parallel in/Serial out FIFO >chip called the SPB640, which feeds the SP0256 with serial data. >In this way, it acts like one of the GI Serial ROMS. Ahh, was he one of those "Blue Sky Ranger" types? >My hope is to emulate the SP0256 for the Intellivision and the >SP0250 for "another major emulator project" :) Sounds good. ;-) >The SP0256 does have the same digital filter stage as the SP0250, > from what I can tell. However, the serial data going to it is not >simply the coefficent data. It is a mix of instructions and immediate >data for the 4-bit micro in the SP0256. Right. Judging from the datasheets the SP0250 is loaded with 15 bytes per frame-- 12 filter coefficients and three voicing/parameter bytes. The SP0256 OTOH looks like it might have 5 bytes of voicing/parameter bytes. >I have not yet acquired the instruction set and data format info from >Ron yet, nor the details of the serial clocking. However, he has >promised me both. He has a 100 page programming manual for the >SP0256!! Ooooh. That'd be cool! >It does support all of the synthesis modes mentioned. The instruction >set has 16 instructions including register loading, register deltas, >jumps, and a single level stack. > >The Sega speech data should be able to be converted into this (SP0256 >compressed) data, once the format is learned. I've currently extracted >the SP0256 samples from the INTV "Space Spartans" cartridge, and plan >to extract the "SP0250 Space Fury" data next. Right, your "Space Spartans" data will likely be just "address" sequences that index into the allophone table in the SP0256. Does the INTV use the "address" lines on the SP0256, or does it do everything over the serial link? (If it's over the serial link I'll be taking my Intellivoice apart tonight. ;-) I always thought they were using it for the allophone synth and not as an LPC engine. (Much lower bitrates/memory usage on the allophone set than streaming LPC to it...) >Clay, if you want to share info on this stuff I'll give you everything >you have if you'll do the same.. :) Sounds great. Send me a mailing address in private e-mail and I'll make copies of all the stuff I have. (Ironically the Radio Shack "cross reference" book has the best info on programming the SP0256-- all the allophone tables, etc.) >One more note regaring Mr. Nyquist. The Intellivoice takes the SP0256 >output and runs in through one impressive analog filter. It is a 5-pole >elliptical low-pass implemented with generalized impedance converters. [...specs snipped...] Geez. Yeah, I think that'll clip pretty much everything past the rolloff point. ;-) >If you want to see a schematic of this or just follow along with the >reverse-engineering of the Intellivoice, my web site is coming >together at http://www.2bits.simplenet.com/ Thanks Frank, I'll check it out! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 10:19:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:18:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348861D1.2C78@mail.idt.net> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 12:19:29 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega sound boards... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 > Ugh...someone please tell me why I'm reading my email/newsgroups > when I have a big project due ~3pm :-( Anyways... because you are supposed to? well, it is a reason... :> > No, quantizing is the "Resolution" of those stair steps (i.e. >how many different places they can be. There are only a finite number >of digital values that you can quantize to. Well, Quantizing isn't the "resolution", but the PROCESS of assigning a digital value to the individual voltage steps. And that (the resolution) is limited by the word length (16 bits for CD players). > When you're not dealing with an oversampled converter, I don't see > any inherent benefit of oversampling other than to make the design of your > final, analog low-pass filter after your DAC easier (i.e. lower order.) > Probably not worth schleping around all the additional samples, as I think > the stuff in our chips is 2nd or 3rd order Butterworth (i.e. pretty > straightforward) anyways (No, you don't all have to go sign NDAs, that > stuff is in our datasheets ;-) ) Ok, so the idea is to put as little in the signal path as possible. instead of desiging a better filter, you design a better D/A convertor. > > I though oversampling was just for aiding error correction at playback... > > in conjunction with that process that scatters the data acoss the disc so > > a scratch will not wipe out a good chunk of the data (what was this > > process called again?) > > Ahhh, could be. I'm not too familiar with that kind of stuff. makes sense to me. > > > Apply a little analog filtering to smooth out the edges, and presumably > > >you > > > have a nice signal. Apply too much, and things sound like a dog shitting in a > > > swimming pool (all muddy). > > > > I thought there was just another low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter after > > the D/A convertor. > > There is, but its purpose isn't to prevent aliasing. Aliasing > can't occur in D -> A conversion. If you go through the math, basically > that low-pass filter replaces all the "sharp corners" of the stairstep > analog waveform out of the DAC with sync functions (basically sin(x)/x), > which, if you sampled the signal corrrectly, will all add up to give you > the proper (i.e. non-aliased) waveform. That is just what I thought.. > I probably just confused you more, so I should probably just keep > my mouth shut in the future..... no, I understand it. Speak UP! I understand a lot of the tech-talk that goes on in here, but I dont know much about the specifics, like functions or pinouts of individual chips... so I usually keep my mouth shut as I probably couldn't contribute anything worthwile. :> Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 13:03:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:02:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:04:08 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: PC Vector Generator Card... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Hi All, I've been back thinking about making an ISA card that's compatible with Wells-Gardner "type" vector monitors again. My original plan was to use a PIC to fetch and decode instructions from some shared RAM and have the PIC run an Atari-like Analog Vector generator. I think it'd work, but the more I think about how to compensate for varying vector brightness there's a lot to be said for something like a digital vector generator. Zonn had talked previously about implementing a hardware driven vector engine by implementing Bresenham's line algorithm on a fast little controller (like the SX PIC clone), but with the SX tied up in lawsuit-land that might not fly. So, I've been thinking of other ways to do it. Curious to hear opinions... Approach 1: Modified DVG. Use a 20MHz PIC to run the state machine. Implement the binary rate multipliers and counter circuits (and as much else as possible) in a CPLD or FPGA. Advantages-- hardware based, hardware assisted line draws, minimum of data from PC required. Disadvantages-- take some work to figure out the programmable logic parts, PIC might not cut it (could do it all in FPGA). Approach 2: DSP I think the cycle time of even pretty lowly DSP's could probably handle the DDA line draw in ample time. Advantages-- possibly cool DSP based drawing like splines, etc. Fully programmable. Maybe use cheaper serial DACs. Disadvantages-- complex to prototype, lots of code to write for DSP, maybe kinda expensive. Approach 3: "dot engine" Thought this one up this morning. Have the PC perform all the DDA line draws and just store the "pixels" into a linear address space, then the "vector card" just cruises through memory plotting all "pixels". Advantages-- gets away from requirement of fast micro on card to rip lines, simplifies vector card hardware significantly. Disadvantages-- more CPU overhead for PC, more RAM required for "pixel" storage on card. Here's some numbers to think about if you're interested in thinking about this problem. (Hey Zonn, see if you agree with me on these?) The Atari Digital Vector Generator Binary Rate Multipliers are clocked at 1.5MHz. This means that at maximum rate, each line counter clocks at about ~677ns per "pixel". (Rate multiplier max rate = (1.5MHz*63)/64) Assuming you want to redraw the display at least once every 30th of a second, that gives you about-- 33.33ms / 677ns = 49218 "pixels" per refresh (max) ("pixel" = clocks to line counter) Figure you have a 1024x1024 resolution display-- that gives you around 200 lines that go about a quarter the way across the screen (max). These figures will be less 'cause not every vector generator clock pulse is used for clocking the line counters. (This makes sorta "back of envelope" sense-- if each asteroid is about 256 "pixels" in circumference, and you add in the player ship, missiles, explosions, text, etc, you could still probably draw an entire game screen with less than 200 lines of 256 pixels each. Even with 30% overhead for the state machine (130 or so lines of 256 pixels) it's probably do-able.) Anyway, let's say we want a vector generator that can pull off at least 3 times the performance of the Asteroids DVG (to try to equal the AVG in performance? that's a completely wild-ass-guess). Everything scales pretty linearly, so you need a "pixel" plotted about every 225ns on average. The CPLD/FPGA hardware line-generator solution is looking pretty attractive... BTW, anyone see any reason why a sufficiently accurate PWM couldn't replace a Binary Rate Multiplier? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 14:35:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:34:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34887D37.10DA@erols.com> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:16:24 -0500 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector Generator Card... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kev Clay Cowgill wrote: > I've been back thinking about making an ISA card that's compatible with > Wells-Gardner "type" vector monitors again. Okay, slight off topic but at the recent coin op video game show there was a game demoed called Battle Girl boasting Vector "style" play mechanics and was supposedly running on a Macintosh. I'll try to pull the flyer for it out tonight and see if it has more info. As for it being a true vector monitor game, I doubt it, but it may be a source of good ideas.... Kev Looking for a few good PCBs! mowerman@erols.com REMOVE THE "?" FROM MY E-MAIL http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Video game info page From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 14:43:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:43:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:43:40 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector Generator Card... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) if you would use PCI instead of ISA, mac folks could use it too.. I came across an interesting part yesterday from anchorchips called the an3041 which has an 8k I and 8k D cache between the PCI bus and the local bus From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 14:57:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:57:27 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:57:24 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector Generator Card... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) It is a power macintosh game that uses the display style of a vector game, but is (obviously) raster based. It has the "look and feel" of a vector game, though From spies.com!vectorlist Fri Dec 5 17:33:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:33:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:33:58 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC Vector Generator Card... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >if you would use PCI instead of ISA, mac folks could >use it too.. I came across an interesting part yesterday > from anchorchips called the an3041 which has an 8k I >and 8k D cache between the PCI bus and the local bus That chip sounds interesting... We did a pretty in-depth evaluation of PCI interface chips a little while back and found some that would work pretty well too. (PLX makes one that looks the "easiest" to use to me at least.) I have a few issues with PCI: 1) Hard(er) to layout in 2 layers and have it work. (and the PCI bridge chips are usually fine pitch parts which makes hand assembly kinda painful and might be too close together for AP Circuits to fab) I definately wouldn't pass FCC part 15. ;-) 2) Tougher to debug. ISA is a pretty simple bus that my logic analyzer wouldn't have a problem with (non muxed, etc.) PCI gets pretty scary. We don't have a PCI buis analyzer here yet. 3) Software (drivers) are a lot harder to write. :-( Something like the PLX gets a headstart on the PC side, but the Mac side would still need some work. (Ward at LoneWolf migth have Mac PCI drivers already for sale already though...) 4) It's something else to learn. :-/ I think I'll try ISA as a "realistic" sized project, then after we do our first few PCI modems at work maybe try PCI... USB would actually be a good candidate, but I don't feel like dealing with the USB drivers and Win95 on the PC side. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Sat Dec 6 09:38:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:37:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <130B8190.CCC812BB@se.highway1.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 1980 22:52:49 -0500 From: dpage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vectorlist@spies.com" Subject: well gardner tempest hv cage X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dpage Well... I have found an overseas manufacturer that will make the transformers custom for the Wells Gardner vector monitors. The only problem is that I need to order 100 min. And they will cost around 50-60. each. If you would like to buy some, let me know and I will sell them at slightly over cost for anyone ordering 15 or more. And sell for 30% over cost for anyone who wants 2 or more. I can't tell you the actual price yet. But I am sending them a sample wrapped in "gold" : ) This would solve alot of problems. Let me know how many you would like so I can get an Idea of how may I must pay for out of pocket. I will give anyone ordering now a substantial " gratful discount in the future for reorders " Dave From spies.com!vectorlist Sun Dec 7 17:21:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:20:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 07 Dec 1997 20:18 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: re:Wells Gardner tempest hv cage Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "well gardner tempest hv cage", dpage@se.highway1.com writes: > Well... I have found an overseas manufacturer that will make the > transformers custom for the Wells Gardner vector monitors. This is graet! :) > The only problem is that I need to order 100 min. This isn't so graet. :( Looking back on the WGs I've encountered (about 20), I've only had one bad fly back. Maybe other people have had higher mortality rates.? However, just about every broken Ampliphone I've ever seen has had a bad fly back. The obvious question: can they make the Wintrons? Personally I don't need any WG fly backs (yet). However, I'd take a bunch of $60 Wintrons (assuming they were of the same quality). FWIW, good work either way. Cheers, Mark From spies.com!vectorlist Sun Dec 7 17:46:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:45:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: dpage@se.mediaone.net Message-Id: <199712080145.UAA13865@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:44:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: re:Wells Gardner tempest hv cage CC: "Mark Shostak" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dpage@se.mediaone.net Well the problem is, that most ampliphone monitors were removed for that reason so there is less demand for them. But if you can get 100 sold I will be happy to help get them produced. Yes the wells were far more reliable, but they are 15 years old now, and the flybacks are dieing. Dave From spies.com!vectorlist Sun Dec 7 21:59:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:59:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:00:20 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Development stuff... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 11:43 11/26/97, Clay Cowgill wrote: > >So you just plug it into the cardedge of a board and use little >alligator-clip jumpers to connect your voltages, controls, and signals >where needed. It's not exactly an "innovation" or anything, I just think >it'd be a much nicer (for me anyway) way of testing "unknown" boards. > >Actually... Now that I think about it... I could put a couple of headers >in the middle of the board and allow for little "personality" modules to be >plugged in. (So you could have half a dozen "common" adapters-- Nintendo >Donkey Kong Type, Konami type, Capcom 56 pin, etc. for quick tests that >would hook up the video, controls, and power automatically...) Clay, I'd take 2 or 3 of these. BTW, they make these at my local "good" hole-in-the-wall electronic store for RS232, SCSI and PC port connectors. I believe the generic term is "breakout box" From spies.com!vectorlist Sun Dec 7 21:59:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:59:26 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:00:30 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Some vector games for sale... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam Barrier (Jwelser has his eye on this one) $250 From spies.com!vectorlist Sun Dec 7 21:59:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:59:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:00:25 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Development stuff... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 14:16 11/26/97, Clay Cowgill wrote: >You can actually do all that in one 74LS86. One switch sets output >polarity with the last XOR gate, the other gates combine the H and Vsync. >I did this for my monitor tester... Whatever happened with this; you actually built one? I thought I was goign to test for you! :> From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 04:44:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:44:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: dpage@se.mediaone.net Message-Id: <199712081243.HAA11763@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:43:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dpage@se.mediaone.net It has been suggested to me that these are in high demand. I will have them made if I can presell 100 of them. Cost would be around 85-90.00 range each. Let me know if you would be interested in any. Dave From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 06:13:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:13:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348C1CDD.77C6@mail.idt.net> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:14:21 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Wells Gardner tempest hv cage References: <199712080145.UAA13865@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 dpage@se.mediaone.net wrote: > > Well the problem is, that most ampliphone monitors were removed for > that reason so there is less demand for them. But if you can get 100 > sold I will be happy to help get them produced. > Yes the wells were far more reliable, but they are 15 years old now, > and the flybacks are dieing. cool, I personally will probably take at least 20 of those amplifone HV transformers if you get them made. I have 10 SW machines with amplifones and dead HV right now (dont ask), and a few extra dead amplifone monitors I can put back into other games...and I will definatly want a few spares. I didn't want to shell out $200 each for new wintrons, I will go broke! I think the demand for amplifone transformers will be greater. people are always looking for them. if you have a dead WG cage it isn't too hard to find another one around for maybe $75, and if you find one at an operator's, it will probably work. But an amplifone HV board is worth about $200 because of the cost of the Wintrons, and if you find one at an operator's, chances are it is going to be broken. I have worked on lots of WG monitors and have only ever ran across 1 bad transformer myself, I might take a couple because I still have that dead cage and a spare would be nice. Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 08:43:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:43:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:42:02 -0700 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) I'd take a handfull (I think I have 9 broken amplifone HV units) -jeff > >It has been suggested to me that these are in high demand. I will >have them made if I can presell 100 of them. Cost would be around >85-90.00 range each. Let me know if you would be interested in any. > >Dave jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 09:52:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:52:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:54:00 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Development stuff... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >At 14:16 11/26/97, Clay Cowgill wrote: >>You can actually do all that in one 74LS86. One switch sets output >>polarity with the last XOR gate, the other gates combine the H and Vsync. >>I did this for my monitor tester... > >Whatever happened with this; you actually built one? I thought I was goign >to test for you! :> I've got a couple, but they're on breadboards-- not the most durable thing on the planet. I've been waiting to make a run of printed circuit boards that I can make some "production" ones with. And, yes, I'm trying to get to your Star Wars/ESB packed up and out of my garage... :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 11:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:02:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348C31F4.67AF@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:44:20 -0600 From: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? References: <199712081243.HAA11763@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net dpage@se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > It has been suggested to me that these are in high demand. I will > have them made if I can presell 100 of them. Cost would be around > 85-90.00 range each. Let me know if you would be interested in any. I can use three or four at that price. Bob Wood > > Dave From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 11:46:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:46:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:47:33 GMT Message-ID: <348c4d3d.1452747077@tommy.doctord.com> References: <199712081243.HAA11763@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> <348C31F4.67AF@worldnet.att.net> In-Reply-To: <348C31F4.67AF@worldnet.att.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:44:20 -0600, RWood54741@worldnet.att.net wrote: >dpage@se.mediaone.net wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> It has been suggested to me that these are in high demand. I will >> have them made if I can presell 100 of them. Cost would be around >> 85-90.00 range each. Let me know if you would be interested in any. > >I can use three or four at that price. I would also buy 2 or 3. If they work. Does this off shore company = realize that these HV are a bit different than most every other HV transformer = made? They must go into heavy resonance at the proper frequency (I'm not sure = what that frequency is, somewhere around 20khz I would guess). The regulation= of the HV is dependent upon this characteristic. There is no feedback = regulation in the amplifone HV design and a normal flyback HV is not going to work. I have no idea how one winds an transformer for resonance. My guess is = that alone, a coil without a capacitor is not going to resonate, it probably = needs that "magneto resonato coilo thingo" to be in tune with the HV = transformer. The offshore company must somehow take this into account. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 11:52:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:52:04 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Kurt forwarded me a bunch of Atari 800 floppies from an operator, and I've begun the painful process of extracting the bits from them. Here was an interesting discovery I made. This appears to be a later version of Space Fury, with one ROM rev 'C', which I had never seen before. 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end From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 11:56:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:55:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:55:55 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Space Fury rom notes Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) here are my notes from the rom set: Space Fury Rev 'C' ROM set Dec, 1997 sound 808C, 970A, 971A, 972A U7 U6 U5 U4 cpu 969B U25 prom bd 960C, 961C, 962B, 963B, 964B, 965B, 966C U1 U2 U3 U4 U5 U6 U7 967B, 968B U8 U9 From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 12:00:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:00:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971208140052.00975930@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:00:53 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) At 07:47 PM 12/8/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:44:20 -0600, RWood54741@worldnet.att.net wrote: > >>dpage@se.mediaone.net wrote: >>> >>> >>> It has been suggested to me that these are in high demand. I will >>> have them made if I can presell 100 of them. Cost would be around >>> 85-90.00 range each. Let me know if you would be interested in any. >> >>I can use three or four at that price. > >I would also buy 2 or 3. If they work. Does this off shore company realize >that these HV are a bit different than most every other HV transformer made? > >They must go into heavy resonance at the proper frequency (I'm not sure what >that frequency is, somewhere around 20khz I would guess). The regulation of the >HV is dependent upon this characteristic. There is no feedback regulation in >the amplifone HV design and a normal flyback HV is not going to work. > >I have no idea how one winds an transformer for resonance. My guess is that >alone, a coil without a capacitor is not going to resonate, it probably needs >that "magneto resonato coilo thingo" to be in tune with the HV transformer. The >offshore company must somehow take this into account. > >-Zonn > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > Excellent point! I would also be interested in a couple (or 3), but how can we determine the quality of these transformers. The way I look at it is that the original manufacture screwed it up so bad, an uneducated third party could easily make the same (or similar) mistakes in reproducing the transformer. Could we get a sample and run a marathon test on it or something? Anybody want to run one of their games for a few weeks straight? Just spouting off... Mit btw : Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs? From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 12:06:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:06:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:06:50 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs?" depends on if it has the CPU upgrade. the original 16500's had 68000's and very little memory, making it less than useful for more than about 32 channels. From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 12:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:38:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971208143944.00976220@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:39:45 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) At 12:06 PM 12/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >"Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs?" > >depends on if it has the CPU upgrade. the original 16500's had >68000's and very little memory, making it less than useful for >more than about 32 channels. > I believe that it holds about 512 steps ... with no upgrades. Mit From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 13:25:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <48BBF3423C34D111A67700805F19999264B954@misnts1.dalsemi.com> From: Benny Parker To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:24:38 -0600 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Benny Parker Test Equipment Connection has that item Their address is www.4testequipment.com They had a listing for used HP16500A 3683$ HP16500B 7795$ OUCH !!! Benny Parker -----Original Message----- From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM [SMTP:Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM] Sent: Monday, December 08, 1997 2:40 PM To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? At 12:06 PM 12/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >"Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs?" > >depends on if it has the CPU upgrade. the original 16500's had >68000's and very little memory, making it less than useful for >more than about 32 channels. > I believe that it holds about 512 steps ... with no upgrades. Mit From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 13:35:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:35:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:36:11 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Kurt forwarded me a bunch of Atari 800 floppies from >an operator, and I've begun the painful process of >extracting the bits from them. Here was an interesting >discovery I made. This appears to be a later version >of Space Fury, with one ROM rev 'C', which I had >never seen before. I gave the set a quick test on the >Sega simulator, and it seems to run. Neato. :-) If it helps I still have all my old Atari 800 stuff (850 serial interface, etc.) so transferring stuff if no big deal if you need help. I think there is/was a PC program that would read an 800 disk native too... (I wasted many an hour in my misguided youth removing copy protection from Atari computer stuff... ;-) Neat find on the Space Fury stuff. Keep us posted! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 13:46:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:46:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:46:09 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 13:46:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.teleport.com(really [192.108.254.21]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:46:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from localhost (localhost) by smtp1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with internal id NAB02350; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:45:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:45:33 -0800 (PST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: ... User unknown Message-Id: <199712082145.NAB02350@smtp1.teleport.com> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="NAB02350.881617533/smtp1.teleport.com" Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --NAB02350.881617533/smtp1.teleport.com The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:45:32 -0800 (PST) from goonsquad.spies.com [206.67.152.109] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <<< RCPT TO: 550 ... User unknown 421 smtp1.teleport.com Lost input channel from goonsquad.spies.com [206.67.152.109] smtp1.teleport.com Lost input channel from goonsquad.spies.com [206.67.152.109] --NAB02350.881617533/smtp1.teleport.com Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; smtp1.teleport.com Received-From-MTA: DNS; goonsquad.spies.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:45:32 -0800 (PST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; luna@smtp1.teleport.com Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:45:33 -0800 (PST) --NAB02350.881617533/smtp1.teleport.com-- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 13:51:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:51:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:51:45 -0800 (PST) From: To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: mail failed, returning to sender Reference: Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: |------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| luna@teleport.com ... transport smtp: 550 ... User unknown |------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:35:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:36:11 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill [low-priority message, body not included] From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:09:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:09:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:11:02 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Tac/Scan (cracked version)... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill This is probably mostly for DaveF, but for anyone that might have played with the cracked Tac/Scan at all... I've noticed a glitch in the cracked version I've been running-- hoping "we" (aka, Dave :-) could do another byte-for-byte search to look for any errors in the crack. I don't think it's from any changes that I made (I didn't have to change much of anything in Tac/Scan as I recall). The bug manifests as the player getting a "phantom" ship in the fleet. It fires, but isn't visible. It does seem to be possible to have it get shot though. I only notice it after you play through the first three stages (top view, 3-d iso view, tunnel) and start the fourth stage (top-view again). This was on a real Tac/Scan upright that doesn't exhibit the problem with the "factory" EPROM board. I suppose it could be something weird with the multi-game daughterboard, but everything else seems to run perfectly-- go figure. Any thoughts? -Clay (Also-- FWIW, I've never seen the purported "Zektor 99 lives" bug on real hardware. I wonder if it wasn't just due to uninitialized (or not) memory or something...) Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:14:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:14:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:46:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 8, 97 01:36:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <348c78b40.521@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1035 Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" > If it helps I still have all my old Atari 800 stuff (850 serial interface, > etc.) so transferring stuff if no big deal if you need help. I think there > is/was a PC program that would read an 800 disk native too... (I wasted > many an hour in my misguided youth removing copy protection from Atari > computer stuff... ;-) Oh yeah -- it was around 200 diskettes that I sent Al (some double sided). I'd like to thank Al for archiving the stuff since I don't have an Atari 800. The distributor I got them from had his techs save the roms of every game that crossed through the shop. Unfortunatly he stopped a few years ago (we'll know when when the final list of games comes out). But they were pretty good about saving everything. (And it used to be a "large" shop that got tons of games..) Kurt /* * This version of Kurt Mahan is currently being evaluated. Words he speaks * are those of him only and not those of Novell or anybody else. * * Novell Java Technologies R&D Group * * Kurt Mahan * kmahan@novell.com */ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:22:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:23:08 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? (HP16500A) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >btw : Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs? Uhhhh, probably $3-5K depending on where. Stuff like that's weird though, sometimes you find it really cheap. I know Tucker Electronics sells them for $4000, so you should do better than that most of the time... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:26:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971208142608.0092dbd0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: luna@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:26:11 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Chris.Hanks" Subject: Re: mail failed, returning to sender Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Chris.Hanks" At 01:51 PM 12/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >|------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| > luna@teleport.com ... transport smtp: 550 ... User unknown >|------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| This is news to me! :0 From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:33:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:33:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971208163454.0097bca0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:34:55 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? (HP16500A) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) At 02:23 PM 12/8/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>btw : Anyone know what a used HP 16500A (I think) logic analyzer costs? > >Uhhhh, probably $3-5K depending on where. Stuff like that's weird though, >sometimes you find it really cheap. I know Tucker Electronics sells them >for $4000, so you should do better than that most of the time... > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >_______________________________________________________________________ >/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ > > > Thanks for the input!! I was just wondering. For the past couple weeks we've been using one hunting down a chipset problem. Pretty damn cool toy. The guy who it belongs to said it cost around $12k new about twelve years ago. Mit From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:38:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:38:06 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tac/Scan (cracked version)... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "The bug manifests as the player getting a "phantom" ship in the fleet." I've seen this in the simulated version. From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 14:48:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:48:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:49:21 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Tac/Scan (cracked version)... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >"The bug manifests as the player getting a "phantom" ship in the fleet." > >I've seen this in the simulated version. Interesting. I doubt I ever played long enough on an emulator to see it. Was that running with Mike's "simulated" security chips, or the cracked version of the ROMs? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:22:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:22:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:22:20 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:22:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:22:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id RAA27468; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:48:21 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id RAA17990; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:59:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:59:42 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082259.RAA17990@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:59:32 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id RAA21564; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:59:32 -0500 Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id RAA27458; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:48:08 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:48:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:49:21 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Tac/Scan (cracked version)... Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:31:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:31:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:30:58 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:30:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:30:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA29989; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:18:28 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA10350; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:50 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082329.SAA10350@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:40 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA24679; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:40 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA29956; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:18:13 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:22:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:22:20 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:35:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:35:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348C835B.3A93@links.magenta.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:31:39 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vectorlist Subject: Signature Analysing Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Hi everyone, I just bought an HP-5004A Signature Analyser. Looking through my manuals and troubleshooting guides it looks like I can only find info on testing the Atari Mathboxes with this. The troubleshooting guides talk about using an Atari CAT box to test CPU data and address lines but it does not mention anything about setting up the HP's Clock, Start and Stop lines onto the PCB. So, can I even use this beasty to test sig's of the address lines etc? I really wanted to use this thing to find bad LS245's when they report bad RAM's but I suppose I bought the wrong item? Anyone have a CAT box? jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:42:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:42:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:42:15 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:42:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31130; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:30:12 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA14120; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:41:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:41:33 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082341.SAA14120@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:41:22 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA22305; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:41:22 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31075; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:29:56 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:31:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:30:58 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:45:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:45:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:45:35 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:45:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:45:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31422; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:33:30 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA25531; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:44:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:44:51 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082344.SAA25531@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:44:37 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA15280; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:44:37 -0500 Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31352; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:33:10 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:35:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348C835B.3A93@links.magenta.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:31:39 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vectorlist Subject: Signature Analysing Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:51:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:50:57 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:50:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:50:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31855; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:38:56 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31447; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:18 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082350.SAA31447@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:10 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA01734; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:10 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31834; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:38:45 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:42:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:42:15 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 15:59:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:57:37 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 15:57:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:57:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA32414; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:45:34 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA00563; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:56:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:56:56 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712082356.SAA00563@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:56:44 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA17957; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:56:44 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA32379; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:45:17 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:50:57 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:01:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:01:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:01:33 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 16:01:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:01:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA32748; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:49:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA18712; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:00:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:00:55 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712090000.TAA18712@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:00:44 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA19726; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:00:44 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA32740; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:49:19 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:45:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:45:35 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:06:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:06:54 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 16:06:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:06:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA00459; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:54:55 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA32292; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:17 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712090006.TAA32292@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:08 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA11764; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:08 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id SAA31668; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:54:42 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:57:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:57:37 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:14:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:14:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:14:25 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 16:14:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:14:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01184; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:02:24 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA24051; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:13:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:13:47 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712090013.TAA24051@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:13:39 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA02537; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:13:39 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01142; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:02:14 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:01:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:01:33 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:18:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:18:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:15:22 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vectorlist Subject: Signature Analying (DOH!!) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Okay, I found what I was actually looking for now. I just had to read a bit farther. Anyway, I had an idea to make up one huge HTML page that summarized all the SA info that I have for the Atari games into one big and organized HTML guide. Would there be an interest in this? PS.. Al, you have a irritable mail server somewhere that is bouncing a lot a mail back to vectorlist. -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:21:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:21:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 16:21:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:21:27 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01733; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:09:30 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA18284; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:20:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:20:52 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712090020.TAA18284@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:20:43 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA20841; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:20:43 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01200; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:09:18 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:14:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:14:25 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:22:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:10 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Al, you have a irritable mail server somewhere that is bouncing a lot a mail back to vectorlist." I know.. From spies.com!vectorlist Mon Dec 8 16:23:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:23:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:23:03 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com From: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com >From sandal.watcom.on.ca!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Dec 8 16:23:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca(really [192.75.209.254]) by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Received: from boot.inside.watcom.on.ca by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01836; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:10:56 -0500 Received: from localhost by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA19379; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:22:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:22:18 -0500 From: MAILER-DAEMON@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) Message-Id: <199712090022.TAA19379@boot.inside.watcom.on.ca> To: The original message was received at Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:22:09 -0500 from sandal.inside.watcom.on.ca [172.31.0.254] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: waterloomail1.sybase.com.: host not found) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from sandal.watcom.on.ca by boot.inside.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA18343; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:22:09 -0500 From: vectorlist@spies.com Received: from goonsquad.spies.com by sandal.watcom.on.ca (8.6.12/1.38) id TAA01829; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:10:42 -0500 Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:06:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:06:54 -0800 (PST) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: BOUNCE vectorlist@spies.com: global taboo header: /^subject:\s*Returned mail\b/i Sender: vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: vectorlist@spies.com ----- Message body suppressed ----- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 8 18:49:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:49:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 08 Dec 1997 19:08 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com Cc: vectorlist@spies.com, jess@magenta.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: re:Signature Analysing Question Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Mark Shostak" In message "Signature Analysing Question", jess@magenta.com writes: > So, can I even use this beasty to test sig's of the address lines etc? I > really wanted to use this thing to find bad LS245's when they report bad > RAM's but I suppose I bought the wrong item? Anyone have a CAT box? You can test the '245s w/ the HP easily. Simply read your signatures on the CPU socket instead of the originating node. If you read a bad sig, check the originating node to make sure the sig is good there. If its bad at the EPROM, it'll be bad at the buffer, guaranteed. You can also test the 2114s w/ the HP. However, it's much easier to test them w/ the CAT (sorry, none for sale). To test the RAM you'd need a special 'F8' ROM (old Apple ][ term) to write the sig patterns into the RAM. Then you can test them like they were a regular PROM or EPROM. Cheers, Mark From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 8 19:30:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:30:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:28:22 -0700 (MST) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@bigsur To: Vectorlist Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) In-Reply-To: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Jess Askey wrote: > Okay, I found what I was actually looking for now. I just had to read a > bit farther. Anyway, I had an idea to make up one huge HTML page that > summarized all the SA info that I have for the Atari games into one big > and organized HTML guide. Would there be an interest in this? Yes. Very interested. It would be cool to have that all in one easy to access location. > PS.. Al, you have a irritable mail server somewhere that is bouncing a > lot a mail back to vectorlist. Yea. Bounce. +------------------------------------------+ | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center +------------------------------------------+ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 8 19:33:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:33:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:32:57 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) > PS.. Al, you have a irritable mail server somewhere that is bouncing a > lot a mail back to vectorlist. Yea. Bounce. .. I fixed it. Mail bounces were going back to the mailing list, instead of to me, and there was a stale email adr, which caused the bounce in the first place. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 00:06:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:06:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348CFBBD.19327FE3@istar.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:05:17 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analysing Question References: <348C835B.3A93@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Hmm, you should have information on the schematics for the signature analysis of the mathbox boards. This is the same for your HP as it is for the Cat Box. The beauty of the Cat Box is it hooks up directly to the edge connector of the game baord and one can do a checksum or ram test without removing the parts. This does NOT always work, I have a Sprint II that works fine, yet the Cat Box gets erratic reading on the CS's of the ROMs. sheesh... John :-#)# ps, why is vectorlist bouncing all over the place??? Jess Askey wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I just bought an HP-5004A Signature Analyser. Looking through my > manuals and troubleshooting guides it looks like I can only find info > on testing the Atari Mathboxes with this. The troubleshooting guides > talk about using an Atari CAT box to test CPU data and address lines but > it does not mention anything about setting up the HP's Clock, Start and > Stop lines onto the PCB. > So, can I even use this beasty to test sig's of the address lines etc? I > really wanted to use this thing to find bad LS245's when they report bad > RAM's but I suppose I bought the wrong item? Anyone have a CAT box? > jess > -- > Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** > ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * > 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** > Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 00:10:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:10:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348CFCB7.7588E752@istar.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:09:27 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Hi, Jess! I'd like a copy..what have you got, perhaps I can add something to it... John :-#)# Jess Askey wrote: > > Okay, I found what I was actually looking for now. I just had to read a > bit farther. Anyway, I had an idea to make up one huge HTML page that > summarized all the SA info that I have for the Atari games into one big > and organized HTML guide. Would there be an interest in this? > > PS.. Al, you have a irritable mail server somewhere that is bouncing a > lot a mail back to vectorlist. > > -- > Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** > ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * > 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** > Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 03:08:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:07:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348D40FE.191@erols.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:00:46 -0800 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kev Jess Askey wrote: > > Okay, I found what I was actually looking for now. I just had to read a > bit farther. Anyway, I had an idea to make up one huge HTML page that > summarized all the SA info that I have for the Atari games into one big > and organized HTML guide. Would there be an interest in this? This would be cool. How many people out there are actually doing SA? Would it be a worth while effort to look into building a CAT box? To me it seems like a PC based ICE for the CPU with a probe would be the way to go (somewhat akin to Fluke's Microprocessor troubleshooters). I can provide some hints about SAing Bally pinball boards & Pac-Man pcbs if I just have time.... -- Kev http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Coin Op Video Game site REMOVE "?" FROM MY E-MAIL Looking for any Pac Man info & a few good PCBs... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 06:18:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712091419.JAA27956@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Nightmare! (was: Re: more info on euro star castle boards) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:19:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ozdemir, Steve" at Dec 2, 97 03:38:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > G'day, > > I'll second Kev's nomination for Cine->Atari BW/color (or Sega for that > matter). Now what's this Nightmare game? (Putting on my asbesto > suit...is this thing getting worn from use?) > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com And please don't forget the Cine->Atari COLOR part of that :-) I have no B/W monitors of any kind and while I could find an Asteroids, there are NO Cinegames to be found in the Detroit area :-( I'd really like to stuff the board into my Space Duel. I still say that I might be willing to try colorizing a game or two - ripoff seems like a great candidate. I suppose if I did this now, it would provide "real" incentive to do the converter board :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 08:54:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:54:38 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I have been thinking about such a box since I mentioned the idea of a "soft ICE" a couple of weeks ago. The problem with my original idea was a completely software controlled interface would still be too slow, so I was thinking of a state machine specific to each supported CPU that could to reads and writes. By the time you do that and add all the other bus control logic and intrs it's just as complicated as putting a CPU out there. Orion Instruments made a box called the Unilab 8620 that was a "universal ICE" that supported Z80's and 6502's. It is a small box with a 40 pin connector that goes to a PC that had local trace memory, an EPROM programmer, a trace pod, and a cable that went to the CPU socket of the target. I found just the external box at a surplus place for $15 w/o the host card or target cable (or software :-( ) The current thought is a box with an IDE interface (you can use IDE as a dumb parallel interface if you only need 8 external addresses) controlling a pod with the target CPU on it. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 09:23:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:23:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348D7DCD.2405@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:20:13 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> <348CFCB7.7588E752@istar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey I have recieved pretty good interest in the Signature Analyser book for Atari boards. So here is the plan. I figure it will be done within 6 months. I have just about all the schems from that time period. I will go through them and then post the list here. Then if anyone wants to loan me game schems, I will add them into the list as well. I want this to be very comprehensive so that we wouldn't even need schems. I will put the page up on the web in HTML, and I will probably get a couple bound up in a nice spiral binding with laminated cardstock pages as well, for durability. I will keep you all posted. jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 09:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:27:26 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348D7EB1.519C@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:24:01 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> <348D40FE.191@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Kev wrote: > Would it be a worth while effort to look into building a CAT box? > I would be interested in getting a CAT box, but I can't help with the design much. Just no time. > I can provide some hints about SAing Bally pinball boards & Pac-Man pcbs if I just have > time.... I can try and get sigs for Williams pinball boards as well. But then there is that time factor again.:-0 Too bad I have to sleep everynight... else I could get tons of stuff done (and probably have a heart attack). jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 10:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:09:43 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:10:56 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? (HP16500A) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >At 02:23 PM 12/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >Thanks for the input!! I was just wondering. For the past couple weeks >we've been using one hunting down a chipset problem. Pretty damn cool >toy. The guy who it belongs to said it cost around $12k new about twelve >years ago. Yeah, they're pretty amazing. We got the new 16500C for work. (Well, the R&D guys across the street anyway.) It comes bundled with an HP9000 PA-RISC UNIX box as its display terminal. ;-) 2M-word trace buffer per channel, 213 channels. Pretty-much overkill in all directions. I think it was about $65K... (ouch!) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 11:07:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:07:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:08:33 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Just an FYI (maybe Zonn cares, otherwise I'll just get this into the archive in case anyone needs it later on). I worked on a design for some binary rate multipliers over the weekend. It looks like all four of the 7497 BRM's from Asteroids/Deluxe/OmegaRace, etc. fit in a single Lattice 2032 CPLD. (I did the design in Scenario.) I have a feeling that a 2032 probably costs more than the 4 7497's (well, maybe not-- Jameco wants $2 a pop for those), but this will re-target to lots of other programmable logic too. There's tons of gates left in the 2032 at this point-- although pincount is getting a little low. If I go to the 2064 (same basic guts as the 2032, just an 84 pin package instead of 44 pins. 70 I/O's vs. 35) I could probably fit all the counters and most of the rest of the Vector Generator in there too. Heh... Looks like these Binary Rate Multipliers will be good out to about 135MHz. Kinda overkill compared to the 3MHz clock that Atari used, but hey, speed is good. :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 11:14:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:14:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I know I sound like a broken record about this, but.... What about using an IDE interface to the vector generator? If you can keep the number of registers down to 8, you can trivially interface it to an ISA card, and us Mac weenies (ok, probably just me..) can talk to it using a cheap PCI IDE card. There may be an integrated bus master ISA DMA part (I know the PCI parts have it) and you could have a DMAed list in PC memory for the display list. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 11:30:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:29:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:30:26 GMT Message-ID: <348d9aa3.1538109805@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:08:33 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >Just an FYI (maybe Zonn cares, otherwise I'll just get this into the >archive in case anyone needs it later on). > >I worked on a design for some binary rate multipliers over the weekend. = It >looks like all four of the 7497 BRM's from Asteroids/Deluxe/OmegaRace, = etc. >fit in a single Lattice 2032 CPLD. (I did the design in Scenario.) > >I have a feeling that a 2032 probably costs more than the 4 7497's = (well, >maybe not-- Jameco wants $2 a pop for those), but this will re-target to >lots of other programmable logic too. There's tons of gates left in the >2032 at this point-- although pincount is getting a little low. If I go= to >the 2064 (same basic guts as the 2032, just an 84 pin package instead of= 44 >pins. 70 I/O's vs. 35) I could probably fit all the counters and most = of >the rest of the Vector Generator in there too. > >Heh... Looks like these Binary Rate Multipliers will be good out to = about >135MHz. Kinda overkill compared to the 3MHz clock that Atari used, but >hey, speed is good. :-) Actually I do care, I'm just under massive pressure until late wednesday = to get out a demo of the project I'm working on. I have some ideas to bounce off you as far as putting a Bresenham's line = draw engine into hardware. It looks easier to me than the rate multipliers = and the real nice thing is that it can be setup (very easily) to be self clocking= -- that is different angle lines will always be drawn at a constant rate. = And being a Bresenham line draw, there is no accumulative error. (Those = lines will always match at the end points) Give me until the end of the week and I'll come up with a little block diagram/schematic sort of thing to show you what I mean. It's actually = simple, I just have *zero* time right now. -Zonn (Back to work, I just got a call for a progress report -- *crack* goes = the whip!) <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 11:41:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:39:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:39:01 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I have some ideas to bounce off you as far as putting a Bresenham's line = draw engine into hardware." All of you crusty old hackers may remember "Multiple 68000's In A Personal System" in Dr. Dobb's from the early 80's that I wrote. The graphics display used a hardware Breshenham vector generator! The board still exists, back at my friend's house in Milwaukee, guess I'll have to call him and ask if he can dig up the schematics. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 11:47:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:45:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:46:43 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I know I sound like a broken record about this, but.... > >What about using an IDE interface to the vector generator? > >If you can keep the number of registers down to 8, you >can trivially interface it to an ISA card, and us Mac >weenies (ok, probably just me..) can talk to it using >a cheap PCI IDE card. There may be an integrated bus >master ISA DMA part (I know the PCI parts have it) >and you could have a DMAed list in PC memory for the >display list. I must have been dozing off... I hadn't heard the IDE interface idea before, just the PCI one. ;-) Actually... IDE sounds pretty good. I'll have to look into what requirements that places on the PC (like adding a second $8 IDE card-- I'm a little nervous to have my "IDE" device attach to the same interface and card that someone's Hard Drive is on. "Ooops! Sorry, just scragged your hard disk." ;-) The DMA part could be nice. I'll have to think how that'd work into the design. (I'm just making little pieces of it right now, line draw hardware first, then the "engine".) I was thinking of making Vector RAM map into some unused BIOS space on the PC, then have an I/O port bit that basically says "GO". (This tells the VG hardware that the display list is complete and it should draw a frame, and can also serve to isolate Vector RAM from the PC bus and let the vector generator have it for a while...) Frame rate is controlled by the PC that way, and the interface is really simple. I need to go dig up the old "Firmware Furnace" articles in Circuit Cellar Ink about using a 386 motherboard for embedded control... Hmmmm. Well, I can put off the decision for a while. I want to just be able to generate vectors on my o'scope first. ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 12:13:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:13:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:14:49 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Actually I do care, I'm just under massive pressure until late wednesday to get >out a demo of the project I'm working on. Ahhh, I understand. I'm generating milestone dates for my group in Microsoft Project as we speak... Ewwww. I'm being managerial. ;-) >I have some ideas to bounce off you as far as putting a Bresenham's line draw >engine into hardware. That would be very cool. I had been looking into this myself a bit-- trying to decide what optomizations to Bresenham's make sense for vectors. (Alas, line symmetry is probably a no-go.) Bresenham's stuff looks easier in VHDL than in schematic entry to me at lease... Just need to talk the local reps out of the VHDL package! >It looks easier to me than the rate multipliers and the >real nice thing is that it can be setup (very easily) to be self clocking -- >that is different angle lines will always be drawn at a constant rate. That would be nice. From what I can tell, it looks like the "classic" Bresenham's algorithm is about 16 instructions or so for most processors. I just couldn't figure out how to get the speed needed for even "asteroids" level performance from any commonly available processor... The constant rate draw looked daunting to me though. You'll have to educate me. ;-) >And >being a Bresenham line draw, there is no accumulative error. (Those lines will >always match at the end points) That'd be cool. I was a little cautious about how well I could get things to line up with the rate multipliers, but I think if the step size is small and the line counter is clocked with the BRM's it'd be pretty close. >Give me until the end of the week and I'll come up with a little block >diagram/schematic sort of thing to show you what I mean. It's actually simple, >I just have *zero* time right now. No problem. I'll still be tinkering with it I'm sure. (I'm pretty proud of the BRM's actually-- did it all using the "generic" HDL symbols so they'll target to pretty much any FPGA/CPLD/kinda thing. I'll probably have to wire-wrap a socket for the Lattice part and try the in-circuit-programming feature. Hack it onto an Asteroids board and see if it works. ;-) >(Back to work, I just got a call for a progress report -- *crack* goes the >whip!) Me too, gotta commit to some ship dates. *sigh* -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 12:18:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:18:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:20:04 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >All of you crusty old hackers may remember "Multiple 68000's In A Personal >System" in Dr. Dobb's from the early 80's that I wrote. The graphics display >used a hardware Breshenham vector generator! The board still exists, back >at my friend's house in Milwaukee, guess I'll have to call him and ask if >he can dig up the schematics. I don't think we got Dr. Dobb's at my Junior High. :-( *hee-hee, snort* That was a good one. *giggle* (laughing at my own joke, I'm such a nerd... :-) Time to get on that phone, Al! I for one would love to see the design! First thing I saw that had it was the 34010 from TI. One instruction did most of the inner loop for Bresenham's. Nifty. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 12:43:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:42:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <348DAEF8.5C8@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:50:00 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Clay Cowgill wrote: > > > Hmmmm. Well, I can put off the decision for a while. I want to just be > able to generate vectors on my o'scope first. ;-) > > -Clay A while back, I hooked up my sound card to my scope, and wrote a WIN32 program to output vector data in packaged in sound data buffers. It was actually wildly successful. The program drew a 3D rotating cube. I never got around to hooking up a second sound card for Z axis control, but it would have worked well, I'm sure. One problem I had was that sound cards are built to filter the DC component out of the signal, so I was unable to just draw a dot in some random location. I had to make sure the signal had a large AC component for things to look correct. Anyway, it was just a fun experiment. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 12:43:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:43:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:42:53 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" Over this past weekend I found a SF2 that just so happened to be in a Quantum upright cabinet. Cost me about $100 (anyone want to buy a SF2 board? :) As I already have: trackball, wiring harness, boardset, power supply, monitor (WG unfortunately but better than nothing) I am now on a quest for three things: Marquee, control panel, monitor bezel. Anyone have and be willing to part with? As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real thing. I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection / HV boards but no tubes. Thanks, David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 12:58:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:58:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:59:15 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: AstDlx vector section schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill In case anyone wants this... I swiped the Asteroids Deluxe vector generator schematics from Al's webpage and converted them from TIFF's and assembled them into an Adobe Acrobat PDF document. (Portable Document Format) Anyway, the PDF file with a table of contents index is only 477K for all six images (as opposed to the 6 TIFFs which are about 1.8M), so if anyone wants it maybe I'll put it on my webpage, or just shoot it back to Al... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 13:16:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:16:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <348DB6ED.5880@an.hp.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:23:57 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Tempest troubleshooting References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Hi guys, My Tempest just developed a problem that I've never come across before, so I was hoping that somone here might have some more insight into it. In attract mode, the "Game Over" text now appears 4 times larger than normal, and it shows up in the wrong location on screen. It flits between where it's supposed to be up top, and the middle of the screen. Some of the other text, is doing this to, but I forget which phrases they are. The high score table is not affected. If I coin up the game, the game plays and displays perfectly. Self test reveals no errors or problems. As soon as the game goes back into attract mode, I get this crazy text problem. When the machine is in self test, I also have the text problem with the game difficulty setting and number of ships per game. Because the game works correctly in game mode, it seems that I can rule out the possibility of a faulty analog output stage. Seems more like a digital problem. As I said, everthing checks out in self test, so if you can believe that information, then the mathbox is OK, and the game code is good, and the rams are good. Aiyee.. still seems like a ram problem to me, but I'd like to believe the self test knows what it's doing!! Anyone have some ideas of what I might be looking for? Thanks for any input. I'll have to check Nick's Tempest troubleshooting page next, but I don't remember reading anything about this type of problem there, but it's been a while. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 13:23:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:23:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971209152459.00980670@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:25:01 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? (HP16500A) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) > >Yeah, they're pretty amazing. We got the new 16500C for work. (Well, the >R&D guys across the street anyway.) It comes bundled with an HP9000 >PA-RISC UNIX box as its display terminal. ;-) 2M-word trace buffer per >channel, 213 channels. Pretty-much overkill in all directions. > >I think it was about $65K... (ouch!) > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >_______________________________________________________________________ >/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ > > > Is there anyone out there willing to hook up 213 channels? Way overkill... Mit From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 13:24:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:24:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:24:26 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real thing. I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection / HV boards but no tubes." I can loan you my marquee and control panel. Doesn't Richardson Electronics still sell the tubes? I have a spare set of aluminum mounting ears for the tube, just send a mailing adr for the stuff --al From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 13:25:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:25:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:25:52 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: AstDlx vector section schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Beat me to it again... Now that I've figured out how to generate PDF files, I was going to convert the scans to PDF. You can ftp them to spies, if you like. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 13:30:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:30:01 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? (HP16500A) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Is there anyone out there willing to hook up 213 channels? Way overkill..." We do it all the time debugging PowerPC CPU boards.... Actually, we have special adapter PC boards made to fit on the 40 pin HP cables. Modern CPUs have VERY wide data paths (128bits, in our case..) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 14:00:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:00:31 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348DBEB6.69ED@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:57:10 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tempest troubleshooting References: <348DB6ED.5880@an.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > > Hi guys, > > My Tempest just developed a problem that I've never come across before, > so I was hoping that somone here might have some more insight into it. > > In attract mode, the "Game Over" text now appears 4 times larger than > normal, and it shows up in the wrong location on screen. It flits > between where it's supposed to be up top, and the middle of the screen. > Some of the other text, is doing this to, but I forget which phrases > they are. The high score table is not affected. > > If I coin up the game, the game plays and displays perfectly. > > Self test reveals no errors or problems. > > As soon as the game goes back into attract mode, I get this crazy text > problem. When the machine is in self test, I also have the text problem > with the game difficulty setting and number of ships per game. > > Because the game works correctly in game mode, it seems that I can rule > out the possibility of a faulty analog output stage. Seems more like a > digital problem. As I said, everthing checks out in self test, so if > you can believe that information, then the mathbox is OK, and the game > code is good, and the rams are good. Aiyee.. still seems like a ram > problem to me, but I'd like to believe the self test knows what it's > doing!! > > Anyone have some ideas of what I might be looking for? > > Thanks for any input. I'll have to check Nick's Tempest troubleshooting > page next, but I don't remember reading anything about this type of > problem there, but it's been a while. > > Joel- Sounds like something with the Scaling circuitry. If the scaling is screwed up at one particular setting (in this case the scale commonly used by the text), then the invisible line that is drawn from the center to the point where the text will start will also be proportionally wrong. So. If your "game over" text normally would appear like this.. ______________________ | | | | | | | | | | "c" denotes center of screen | c | | | | Game Over | | | | | | | |_____________________| Now if the problem is indeed in the Scaling circuit you would get a screen that looked like this. ______________________ | | | | | | | | | | "c" denotes center of screen | c | | | | | | | | | | GAME OVER | |_____________________| Where the distance from "c" to the "g" (in game over) is proportional to the size of the "game over" text. I would check the IC at location K8 (LS175) and L8 (LS191). jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 14:07:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:07:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:07:49 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day David, Is the Quantum cabinet similar to any other Atari XY cabinets? I did see one about 8 years ago, but my memory is fading. Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: David Shoemaker (RhoTech)[SMTP:a-dashoe@microsoft.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 12:42 PM >To: 'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com' >Cc: David Shoemaker (RhoTech) >Subject: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) > >Over this past weekend I found a SF2 that just so happened to be in a >Quantum upright cabinet. Cost me about $100 (anyone want to buy a SF2 >board? :) > >As I already have: trackball, wiring harness, boardset, power supply, >monitor (WG unfortunately but better than nothing) I am now on a quest for >three things: Marquee, control panel, monitor bezel. > >Anyone have and be willing to part with? > >As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the >hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real >thing. > >I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection >/ HV boards but no tubes. > >Thanks, > David > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 14:14:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:14:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:13:33 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > G'day David, > > Is the Quantum cabinet similar to any other Atari XY cabinets? I did > see one about 8 years ago, but my memory is fading. > Kinda, It may be the same overall shape, but it has art on the front, as well as the sides. The control panel shape may be the same, or close to Gravitar/Black Widow/Space Duel, but I'm not sure...Of course, it looks much nicer and has the trakball in it.... Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:08:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:08:34 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971209170928.0097c9e0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:09:29 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) At 03:50 PM 12/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Clay Cowgill wrote: >> >> >> Hmmmm. Well, I can put off the decision for a while. I want to just be >> able to generate vectors on my o'scope first. ;-) >> >> -Clay > >A while back, I hooked up my sound card to my scope, and wrote a WIN32 >program to output vector data in packaged in sound data buffers. It was >actually wildly successful. The program drew a 3D rotating cube. > >I never got around to hooking up a second sound card for Z axis control, >but it would have worked well, I'm sure. > >One problem I had was that sound cards are built to filter the DC >component out of the signal, so I was unable to just draw a dot in some >random location. I had to make sure the signal had a large AC component >for things to look correct. > >Anyway, it was just a fun experiment. > >Joel- > No offense, but where do ya'll come up with all this free time? If I had time like that I probably wouldn't have a sea of broken sega vector games in my house. Mit btw : I'm not even married :) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:11:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:10:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:10:54 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "No offense, but where do ya'll come up with all this free time?" ..he's a manager diving under my desk to avoid the incoming..... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:15:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:14:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE11@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Cc: aek Subject: RE: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:08:20 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" Hate to do this to the list but Al what is your email address? Its coming through as SMTP:aek and I find it hard to believe that the net knows you on a first name basis :) David > ---------- > From: aek[SMTP:aek] > Reply To: vectorlist@spies.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 1:24 PM > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Cc: aek > Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal > post) > > "As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with > the > hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real > thing. > > I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have > Deflection > / HV boards but no tubes." > > I can loan you my marquee and control panel. > > Doesn't Richardson Electronics still sell the tubes? > > I have a spare set of aluminum mounting ears for the tube, just > send a mailing adr for the stuff > > --al > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:19:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:19:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:20:34 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: AstDlx question... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Ok, so *where* do the Timer0, Timer1, ... Timer3 signals in the vector generator originate in Asteroids Deluxe? Am I missing something obvious? Everyplace I see them it looks like it's an input. I can't for the life of me figure out where they come from! *grrrrr* -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:22:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:22:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:23:49 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC Vector-generator card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >"No offense, but where do ya'll come up with all this free time?" > >..he's a manager > >diving under my desk to avoid the incoming..... Heyyyy... Just wait a one second there! No, nevermind, you're right... ;-) Guess I deserved that for the Junior Highschool crack... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:27:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:27:27 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) aek@spies.com The problem is that the mailing list server is on the same machine as I am, so when I send out a message, the list server isn't appending '@spies.com' to my name, so... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:32:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:33 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: timer0, etc Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Ok, so *where* do the Timer0, Timer1, ... Timer3 signals in the vector generator originate in Asteroids Deluxe?" On Asteroids, they come from bits 4-7 of the vector instruction (DDMA4-7) and are latched at LATCH1/ time in the ls273 at F6. Is it different on Dlx? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:40:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:40:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:39:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > The problem is that the mailing list server is on the same machine > as I am, so when I send out a message, the list server isn't appending > '@spies.com' to my name, so... Would you considder a .sig file ? :-) -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:41:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:41:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:41:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: AstDlx vector section schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher X. Candreva" On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Clay Cowgill wrote: > which are about 1.8M), so if anyone wants it maybe I'll put it on my > webpage, or just shoot it back to Al... Yes yes yes yes yes. Sounds like a good thing to put back up on spies -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:45:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:44:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:45:56 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: timer0, etc Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >"Ok, so *where* do the Timer0, Timer1, ... Timer3 signals in the vector >generator originate in Asteroids Deluxe?" > >On Asteroids, they come from bits 4-7 of the vector instruction >(DDMA4-7) and are latched at LATCH1/ time in the ls273 at F6. > >Is it different on Dlx? Oh, sure, when you put it *that* way. Yes, that's exactly how it is on AstDlx. I'm just blind. *sigh*... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 15:45:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:45:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:45:44 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: AstDlx vector section schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Yes yes yes yes yes. Sounds like a good thing to put back up on spies" I've replaced the link to the individual 6 tiff scans with the pdf file. The individual pages are still there, too, and you can get to them using ftp. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:19:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:18:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E223E.5FFC@erols.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:01:50 -0800 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> <348D40FE.191@erols.com> <348D7EB1.519C@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kev Jess Askey wrote: > I can try and get sigs for Williams pinball boards as well. But then > there is that time factor again.:-0 I started on the Williams PCB but didn't get far. I'm sorta confused about the WEB/Atari/SA thing -are you scaning all the schematics with SA nodes -or just documenting SA points? The layout used in Battlezone for SA is the method I prefer as it is much easier to do a board by looking at chips & locations than trying to pull them from schematics. > Too bad I have to sleep everynight... else I could get tons of stuff > done (and probably have a heart attack). Yeah, don't forget X-mas, eating, family, spouses, pets, day jobs.... -- Kev http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Coin Op Video Game site REMOVE "?" FROM MY E-MAIL Looking for any Pac Man info & a few good PCBs... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:37:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:37:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E2A89.52DC@mail.idt.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:37:13 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: tempest help References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade and I didn't want it too much. :> I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? Thanks, Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:38:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:38:12 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E2B11.11A@mail.idt.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:39:29 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 David Shoemaker (RhoTech) wrote: > > Over this past weekend I found a SF2 that just so happened to be in a > Quantum upright cabinet. Cost me about $100 (anyone want to buy a SF2 > board? :) > > As I already have: trackball, wiring harness, boardset, power supply, > monitor (WG unfortunately but better than nothing) I am now on a quest for > three things: Marquee, control panel, monitor bezel. > > Anyone have and be willing to part with? > > As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the > hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real > thing. Bill Esquivel has a NOS Quantum overlay.. I think he wants like $600 for it though! Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:44:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:44:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E0F4A.E6E@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:40:58 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Signature Analying (DOH!!) References: <348C8D9A.5D9A@links.magenta.com> <348D40FE.191@erols.com> <348D7EB1.519C@links.magenta.com> <348E223E.5FFC@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Kev wrote: > I'm sorta confused about the WEB/Atari/SA thing > > -are you scaning all the schematics with SA nodes > > -or just documenting SA points? What I was thinking of doing is to list the IC's by PCB reference. Sorta like this.. Centipede: IC A1 (74LS245) Pin Signature 1 38E3 2 6721 3 1234 etc.. 20 4567 IC A2 (74LS374) Pin Signature 1 1234 2 6789 etc.. etc.. etc.. I have to work on it a bit and figure out the best way though since some IC require setting the CLOCK, START and STOP to different locations. I want the manual to be very compact. My process of fixing a board would be like this.. See if it boots (resets). Check to see if the problem is fatal(watchdog barking) I have had a lot of boards like this that report a bad RAM via the test tones. But you can replace allthe RAM you want because the actual problem is one of the DATA buffers. The SA will solve this past problem of mine. See if the game will runs self test (verifies ROM and RAM). Localize the problem to 2-6 IC's Test those IC's with the SA. > > The layout used in Battlezone for SA is the method I prefer as it is much easier to do a > board by looking at chips & locations than trying to pull them from schematics. Yes you are right about that, the schems can be fussy with all those double sided pages. I will use multi columns so that everthing is compact, the binding will allow the manual to lay flat without 'wanting' to close and the pages will be laminated cardstock for durability. > > > Too bad I have to sleep everynight... else I could get tons of stuff > > done (and probably have a heart attack). > > Yeah, don't forget X-mas, eating, family, spouses, pets, day jobs.... Im working on a way to completely eliminate eating! ;-) jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:48:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:48:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E103F.7A2C@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:45:03 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: <348E2A89.52DC@mail.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey mayday19 wrote: > > I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want > to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret > Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade > and I didn't want it too much. :> > > I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up > fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super > zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you > start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work > fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times > and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but > I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? > > Thanks, > Jeff > -- > http://idt.net/~mayday19 resolder all the molex pins on the AUX board just for being a nice game owner, this probabaly won't solve the problem, but it probably needs it. Now, Clean all the edge connectors on the AUX PCB and make sure it isn't a problem there. When it is not working see if you have +5V at the encoder PCB. jess PS, I did get your other emails Jeff, I have to think about the MH problem a bit more before writing back. Nice Quantum page! -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 19:50:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:50:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E10D8.4971@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:47:36 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> <348E2B11.11A@mail.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey mayday19 wrote: > > Bill Esquivel has a NOS Quantum overlay.. I think he wants like $600 for > it though! Geeeezz! That is a high price, but then again, who else has one? Dave. you may actually HAVE to steal to afford that one. (AKA your subject line becomes reality!) jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 20:31:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:31:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE1A@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: tempest help Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:31:11 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker (RhoTech)" Go into self test and see if it reports a pokey bad. I would suspect them. Why it would work with a aux board reconnect is probably a reset not being seen properly. David > ---------- > From: mayday19[SMTP:mayday19@IDT.NET] > Reply To: vectorlist@spies.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 9:37 PM > To: vectorlist@spies.com > Cc: mayday19 > Subject: tempest help > > I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want > to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret > Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade > and I didn't want it too much. :> > > I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up > fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super > zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you > start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work > fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times > and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but > I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? > > Thanks, > Jeff > -- > http://idt.net/~mayday19 > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 21:46:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:46:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <199712092152450570.0812AA6F@mail.cris.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 2.30.23 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:52:45 -0800 From: "Warren 'Llama' Ernst" To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Warren 'Llama' Ernst" >I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want >to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret >Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade >and I didn't want it too much. :> > >I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up >fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super >zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you >start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work >fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times >and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but >I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? Jeff, Those pins that the connector cable plugs into are loose - the solder that holds the pins to the board are cracked with age and use. Reflow the solder around the pins on both boards, and that should take care of it. I would do the job right and remove the old solder completely and resolder the pins, but if you are in a hurry... Virtually, Warr ------------------------------+---------------------------------------- Reviewer, "Windows Magazine" | Warren Ernst - warren@techie.com Author, "Using Netscape" | http://www.cris.com/~wernst/ "Internet 1997 Unleashed" (c) | Computer Journalist, Consultant, Author "Netscape 3 Unleashed"(contr) | Graphic Artist, Nerd "Presenting ActiveX" | Que and Sams.Net Publishing | "If it ain't broke, don't break it." ------------------------------+---------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 22:13:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:13:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:13:37 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Bad POKEY? From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 22:42:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:42:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:43:10 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? Cc: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 14:47 12/8/97, Zonn wrote: >I have no idea how one winds an transformer for resonance. My guess is that >alone, a coil without a capacitor is not going to resonate, it probably needs >that "magneto resonato coilo thingo" to be in tune with the HV >transformer. The >offshore company must somehow take this into account. I, along with lots of people on the list, have a few already pulled and known dead Amplifone transformers that could be supplied for disection and analysis... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 23:28:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:28:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E4453.8A11F14B@istar.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:27:15 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BadReturnPath: pinball@istar.com rewritten as jrr@flippers.com using "Reply-to" header Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Hi, all! I seem to recall that you can use a 19VLUP22 tube for the Ampliphone monitor, you just need to remove the plastic end cap on the pins and replace it with the one from the dud tube... I can look this up if no-one can confirm this... John :-#)# Al Kossow wrote: > > "As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the > hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real > thing. > > I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection > / HV boards but no tubes." > > I can loan you my marquee and control panel. > > Doesn't Richardson Electronics still sell the tubes? > > I have a spare set of aluminum mounting ears for the tube, just > send a mailing adr for the stuff > > --al -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 9 23:52:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:51:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E48CB.50499418@telis.org> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:46:19 -0800 From: Bill Esquivel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> <348E2B11.11A@mail.idt.net> <348E10D8.4971@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Bill Esquivel Now before I get labeled as a real dork, have to set the facts for this one.... It all comes back to Gaymond "I will sell any game for a fortune" lee. He bought the quantum cabinet and wanted the overlay. I did not want to sell it. I did offer a trade to him. I offered him a nice tapper and the overlay for 1 of his 3 full color tappers.. well, if you have never deal with gaymond, its like pulling teeth. Eventually he tries to turn this into a "I want to buy this for myself and never sell it" and then a " I would really rather pay cash than trade away 1 of my 3 games" sort of deal. So that is where the $600 figure came. It was enough cash that gaymond would not pay and get him back to thinking about selling tappers for $1k instead of quantums for $2k... Once gaymond decided he was not going to sucker me into giving the overlay away, he traded the quantum to someone for a zookeeper and some other desirable game. (not to bring up the subject of busting deals, we had agreed to meet on this deal. All that was left was establishing the condition of his and my cabinet. Hmm maybe I should flame him...... ;-> ) So back to the facts. My intention was never to sell the overlay. I would consider trading it. An ideal situation would be my finding a converted quantum so I could use the NOS overlay and keep it. (MY quantum has a nice overlay, but it has some edge cracking). Later, Bill Jess Askey wrote: > mayday19 wrote: > > > > > Bill Esquivel has a NOS Quantum overlay.. I think he wants like $600 for > > it though! > > Geeeezz! That is a high price, but then again, who else has one? > Dave. you may actually HAVE to steal to afford that one. (AKA your > subject line > becomes reality!) > jess > -- > Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** > ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * > 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** > Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 04:31:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:31:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348E8B66.4DC1@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:30:30 -0600 From: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net I have a Quantum marquee. I bought it from an ad in Gameroom magazine. Payed $60 for it and you can have it for that if you want it. It has some flaking. I will try to find it and will scan it so you can see the condition if you are interested. Let me know. Bob Wood David Shoemaker (RhoTech) wrote: > > Over this past weekend I found a SF2 that just so happened to be in a > Quantum upright cabinet. Cost me about $100 (anyone want to buy a SF2 > board? :) > > As I already have: trackball, wiring harness, boardset, power supply, > monitor (WG unfortunately but better than nothing) I am now on a quest for > three things: Marquee, control panel, monitor bezel. > > Anyone have and be willing to part with? > > As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the > hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real > thing. > > I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection > / HV boards but no tubes. > > Thanks, > David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 05:22:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:22:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: dpage@se.mediaone.net Message-Id: <199712101321.IAA12720@mrout2.se.mediaone.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:21:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who wants ampliphone flybacks ? In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: dpage@se.mediaone.net Well so far total interest is about the same .About 25 flybacks from each group, ampliphone, well gardner. Are requested. This is not even close to what I thought the demand would be.It's not even worth the trouble unless I can get 75 commited to. I don't want to be stuck with 75 of them , selling them off over a few years. Well I do know that there is someone else doing the same thing so I may wait until the have tested thier proto types. And yes they have had the proto's for at least 3 weeks not. Please don't ask me there name, I don't believe they want the info released yet. But I will keep you informed. Dave From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 06:41:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:41:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971210144427.0295bf1c@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:44:27 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" At 01:24 PM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote: >"As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the >hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real >thing. > >I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection >/ HV boards but no tubes." > >I can loan you my marquee and control panel. > >Doesn't Richardson Electronics still sell the tubes? > >I have a spare set of aluminum mounting ears for the tube, just >send a mailing adr for the stuff > >--al > > I know you're looking for Amplifone tubes, but I just ordered two 19VLUP22 tubes from Richardson about 10 days ago. They said they didn't have any in stock and that the lead time was 2 weeks. They were still $165 each. -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 06:46:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:46:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712101440.IAA22527@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:42:39 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > Bad POKEY? I'll echo this. I've had several Tempests (Tempi?) that reported no problems in self test but worked great when the pokey was replaced. Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 06:56:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:56:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <348EAF7A.50F6@an.hp.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:04:26 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <348E4453.8A11F14B@istar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig John Robertson wrote: > > Hi, all! > I seem to recall that you can use a 19VLUP22 tube for the Ampliphone > monitor, you just need to remove the plastic end cap on the pins and > replace it with the one from the dud tube... > I can look this up if no-one can confirm this... > John :-#)# > Yes, you can do this. This is the WG tube, which has the same pinout as the 19VLTP22 found in the Amplifone. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 07:00:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:00:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <348EB071.67C4@an.hp.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:08:33 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <1.5.4.32.19971210144427.0295bf1c@heartlab.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Christopher V. Moore wrote: > > At 01:24 PM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote: > >"As an alternative I would like to borrow each of these for scanning with the > >hopes of doing color prints that I could use while I quest for the real > >thing. > > > >I also would be looking for an Ampliphone tube for sale. I have Deflection > >/ HV boards but no tubes." > > > >I can loan you my marquee and control panel. > > > >Doesn't Richardson Electronics still sell the tubes? > > > >I have a spare set of aluminum mounting ears for the tube, just > >send a mailing adr for the stuff > > > >--al > > > > > I know you're looking for Amplifone tubes, but I just ordered two 19VLUP22 > tubes from Richardson about 10 days ago. They said they didn't have any > in stock and that the lead time was 2 weeks. They were still $165 each. Don't forget that you still need the deflection yoke and the magnetic ring assembly to actually use one of these tubes. BTW, if anyone has a yoke assembly (from either Amplifone or WG) for sale, I'm interested. Joel- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 08:16:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:16:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348EBF90.61A@links.magenta.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:13:04 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) References: <214B7591E38CCF11833400805FD4D17302A6DE0C@red-95-msg.dns.microsoft.com> <348E2B11.11A@mail.idt.net> <348E10D8.4971@links.magenta.com> <348E48CB.50499418@telis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Bill Esquivel wrote: > > So back to the facts. My intention was never to sell the overlay. I would > consider trading it. An ideal situation would be my finding a converted > quantum so I could use the NOS overlay and keep it. (MY quantum has a nice > overlay, but it has some edge cracking). Later, Bill > I definitely didn't mean that post to come across as a 'flame'. I guess I forgot to add the ;-)'s (wink, wink, know watta mean, know whatta mean) to the message tho'. Im actually sure that someone would pay ALOT of money for that overlay, until Herb Siver's makes repros that is (DOH!) ;-) jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 08:22:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:22:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348EC12A.42F5@links.magenta.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:19:54 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: <199712101440.IAA22527@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Ray Ghanbari wrote: > > You wrote: > > Bad POKEY? > > I'll echo this. I've had several Tempests (Tempi?) that reported no problems > in self test but worked great when the pokey was replaced. > > Ray Atari has an interesting way of testing whether a pokey is bad and truthfully it is pretty meaningless. The method they use is to read data from the RANDOM number generator on the POKEY, then they wait a few cycles and read another RANDOM number from it. If the numbers are the same, then the POKEY is tagged as being bad. Doesn't tell much about the Switch inputs, serial communication or the A/D converters working, much less the sound. So, yes. You are correct about POKEY's being easily shown as good in the self test but actually not working correctly. -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 08:34:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:34:38 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: tempest help Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:34:37 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: mayday19[SMTP:mayday19@IDT.NET] >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 9:37 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: mayday19 >Subject: tempest help > >I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want >to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret >Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade >and I didn't want it too much. :> > >I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up >fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super >zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you >start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work >fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times >and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but >I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? > >Thanks, >Jeff >-- >http://idt.net/~mayday19 > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 09:02:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:02:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348ECA7C.5980@links.magenta.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:59:40 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > > G'day folks, > > Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming > that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone > know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to > my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! Most likely the detector is the bad part and not the LED (unless someone plugged it in backwards). Blow them out with a big air compressor first to be sure that dirt is not the culprit (don't use canned air, get something powerful) jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 09:12:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:12:09 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:12:06 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Most likely the detector is the bad part and not the LED (unless someone plugged it in backwards)." Doesn't Radio Shack sell a little piece of translucent stuff that shifts the IR into the visible spectrum so you can see it? I seem to remember a friend of mine that does a lot of IR work having one.. That would be one way to tell if it was a bad LED From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 09:23:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:22:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712101709.LAA02710@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 11:11:52 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming > that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone > know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to > my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! Try cleaning them first steve. Nice Q tip with some mild cleaning solution. I think Rick uses some random part from the All Electronics catalog. Shape isn't identical, but it gets the job done. I think I ordered a sampling of what they had. You may want to give him a ping for particulars. Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 10:13:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:13:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:14:52 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Monitor CRT naming/specs? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Yes, you can do this. This is the WG tube, which has the same pinout as >the 19VLTP22 found in the Amplifone. Do any of you know the real story behind CRT "naming"? I seem to recall reading something about it in a "repairing computer monitors" book or some such... When you look at the two we most recently discussed: 19VLUP22 19VLTP22 Clearly there's not a big difference part-number wise! I think it's safe to say that the first number (19) is the diagonal measure of the screen. I'm pretty sure that "P22" is the phosphor-type. Anyone know what the VLx might be? On a similar note-- anyone know how you find out ratings like screen voltage, focus voltage, heater voltage, color gun drive parameters? I imagine that there's some big cross-reference book for CRT's but I've never seen or heard a name of one. Even stuff like pin-outs for particular tubes-- you'd think that those Sencore "CRT rejuvinators" would have to have something like that. (I'm still thinking it would be neat to try to hand-wind a yoke for a big (31"?) CRT and try to make a huge Vector monitor, but I need to know how to driver the color guns and stuff like that... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 10:22:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:22:09 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:20:57 -0700 To: vectorlist@spies.com, mrbill2@telis.org From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Quantum Overlay Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Hey Bill, Is there anyway you can scan that thing in so we at least have it in digital form. That way somebody could alway reproduce them in the future. >Now before I get labeled as a real dork, have to set the facts for this >one.... It all comes back to Gaymond "I will sell any game for a fortune" >lee. He bought the quantum cabinet and wanted the overlay. I did not want to >sell it. I did offer a trade to him. I offered him a nice tapper and the >overlay for 1 of his 3 full color tappers.. > >well, if you have never deal with gaymond, its like pulling teeth. Eventually >he tries to turn this into a "I want to buy this for myself and never sell it" >and then a " I would really rather pay cash than trade away 1 of my 3 games" >sort of deal. So that is where the $600 figure came. It was enough cash that >gaymond would not pay and get him back to thinking about selling tappers for >$1k instead of quantums for $2k... > >Once gaymond decided he was not going to sucker me into giving the overlay >away, he traded the quantum to someone for a zookeeper and some other >desirable game. (not to bring up the subject of busting deals, we had agreed >to meet on this deal. All that was left was establishing the condition of his >and my cabinet. Hmm maybe I should flame him...... ;-> ) > >So back to the facts. My intention was never to sell the overlay. I would >consider trading it. An ideal situation would be my finding a converted >quantum so I could use the NOS overlay and keep it. (MY quantum has a nice >overlay, but it has some edge cracking). Later, Bill > > >Jess Askey wrote: > >> mayday19 wrote: >> > >> >> > Bill Esquivel has a NOS Quantum overlay.. I think he wants like $600 for >> > it though! >> >> Geeeezz! That is a high price, but then again, who else has one? >> Dave. you may actually HAVE to steal to afford that one. (AKA your >> subject line >> becomes reality!) >> jess >> -- >> Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** >> ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * >> 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** >> Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 10:22:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:22:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:22:39 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Monitor CRT naming/specs? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "(I'm still thinking it would be neat to try to hand-wind a yoke for a big (31"?) CRT and try to make a huge Vector monitor, but I need to know how to driver the color guns and stuff like that... ;-)" well, I'd like to see a yoke for a .31 or better dot pitch 13 or 15 inch monitor. they're gotta be someone that will custom wind a deflection yoke.. driving the guns isn't a big deal once you decide on the tube type, and the required screen and focus voltages. I used to know the CRT stuff back in the 70s when I worked at a TV repair shop. The general form is From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 10:28:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:26:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum Overlay Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Hey Bill, Is there anyway you can scan that thing in so we at least have it in digital form. That way somebody could alway reproduce them in the future. " It would be a really nice thing to do, if you could to that... Wasn't someone on RGVAC talking about having some repros made for other things? If you do scan it in, make sure it is REALLY high resolution and 24 bits or better of color. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 10:41:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:41:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:42:37 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Monitor CRT naming/specs? Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >well, I'd like to see a yoke for a .31 or better dot pitch 13 or 15 inch >monitor. they're gotta be someone that will custom wind a deflection yoke.. Hey, that's a good idea. I have a couple of really nice Sony fixed-frequency 16" monitors that would be interesting to try. (Be curious to see how the invar shadow mask looks with vertical lines... ;-) I've almost convinced myself that I can hand-wind a yoke without too much pain and/or suffering. I won't expect "perfection" on the first try, but if I get it to work *at-all* I'd be pretty jazzed. The wire used in WG/Amplifone yokes looks plenty big enough to count turns and determine the basic pattern... Some quick tests on an inductor tester should reveal if it's close enough to try... I bought a WG tube with yoke from Video Connection for $50 to take-apart and experiment with, so I'll report any good findings. I also have that bizarro 13" vector monitor that's driven off the STK0050 audio-amps to look at. (It used very-fine voice-coil type wire from what I remember though...) >driving the guns isn't a big deal once you decide on the tube type, and >the required screen and focus voltages. OK, provided you have a clue about what they should be. ;-) I'm working from the scenario of buying a nice, new, flat-screen, dark-phosphor ("Super-black" type) tube and hacking it into existing HV and deflection systems... >I used to know the CRT stuff back in the 70s when I worked at a TV >repair shop. The general form is Hey, that's a good idea. One of our engineers used to be a TV repair-guy. Time to go interrogate him! :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 11:02:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:02:09 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199712101844.MAA07933@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 12:46:36 -0600 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Quantum Overlay References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Ray Ghanbari You wrote: > If you do scan it in, make sure it is REALLY high resolution > and 24 bits or better of color. and also make sure to color correct the scan, or to simultaneous scan in some representative Pantone colors so things can be corrected later. As a color blind person, my fear of crapping colors on scans is one of the reasons I avoid this stuff ;-) Ray From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 11:05:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:05:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:06:08 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Quantum Overlay Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >It would be a really nice thing to do, if you could to that... >Wasn't someone on RGVAC talking about having some repros made >for other things? > >If you do scan it in, make sure it is REALLY high resolution >and 24 bits or better of color. Travis Haagen was going to do some of that stuff a while back. I don't know how far he got. (He's still in school so he varies between having no time at all and tons of free time.) The thing to do would probably be to have it run over a drum-scanner at at least 4800 lines per inch. 11,000 lpi would be better and probably be such total overkill that it'd work for most anything in the future. (Scanned at 11K and printed at 300 dpi you could make a 75 foot billboard out of your marquee... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 11:30:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:30:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Chris Cope Message-Id: <199712101929.MAA17372@flatland.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: Quantum Overlay To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:29:27 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hendrix" at Dec 10, 97 11:20:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Chris Cope > > Hey Bill, > Is there anyway you can scan that thing in so we at least have it in > digital form. That way somebody could alway reproduce them in the future. > Hey now, aren't you far too busy on Tapper cocktail underlays for this sort of thing ? Chris Cope From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 11:51:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:51:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348F0F1E.27EF@mail.idt.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:52:30 -0800 From: mayday19 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: tempest References: <199712101929.MAA17372@flatland.dimensional.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: mayday19 I brought the Tempest in from the cold (that is why I didn't want to look at it before :) turned it on, started a game, and reconnected the aux board connector. When I played a game about half the sound effects were missing. That made it a little obvious.. put it into selftest and sure enough there was a "P" on the screen.. It works fine now, but now I have a SW board with only 3 POKEYs. :> That reonnecting the aux board thing should be in a Tempest rapair faq or something. Otherwise the machine wouldn't go into self test because you couldn't select 'self test' from the menu unless you spin the spiner. Why would it work fine after doing that? The sound effects were still missing but at least the spinner would work... I guess a data line was stuck because the POKEY was broke and doing that just unstuck it? Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 15:16:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:15:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:16:43 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega multigame... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill I just posted the sega multigame "availability" announcement to RGVAM. The price to the "civilians" is $95 without shipping. As long as you responded earlier to me on this list saying you wanted one, the "vectorlist" price is still $75... I should be mailing the first kits early next week. The instructions for the vectorlist will probably be terse since I think you're all able to handle it that way. :-) (Hell, I can explain the instructions right here-- Remove EPROM card from cardcage. Remove CPU card. Replace security chip with "security plug". Replace PROM at U15? with replacement PROM. Remove Z-80 and plug into daughtercard, plug daughtercard into Z-80 socket. Replace CPU card. Done!) (Took about 5 minutes including 2 minutes of fighting with a stuck EPROM card.) Just FYI-- I'm getting checks trickling in now from people on the list. I'm going to fill the orders for people that can burn their own 27C040's first. That's just-in-case it turns out that there's a bug fix needed for Tac/Scan... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 10 17:54:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:54:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348F46F7.9CB6E36D@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:50:48 -0700 From: John Butler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Data I/O Programmer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Butler I went to a HAM fest this weekend and picked up a Data I/O Chip Lab programmer for $50. I got the software and the programmer but no instruction manual. I have never actually programmed an EPROM before, and I am looking for a good source of information. I am a computer technician and instructor by trade so I think if I am given some direction as to tips and tricks I should be OK. Does anyone know of such a site, or better yet if someone has a manual that they could copy I would appreciate it. Thanks, John -- John Butler Mesa, AZ Collector of Classic Arcade Games and Pinball Machines From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 06:29:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:29:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: schieve@lucent.com (Richard L Schieve) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:28:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199712111428.IAA29401@ihgp3.ih.lucent.com> Original-From: rls@ihgp.ih.lucent.com (Richard L Schieve) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Sega Card Cages Content-Type: text Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: schieve@lucent.com (Richard L Schieve) I'm not sure if I can just send to the list like this as an address but I wanted to give people first shot at this. I just picked up some Sega card cages mostly populated with Star Trek and Space Oddessy boards. I know there is a shortage of the actual cages themselves and I'm offering empty cages for $50 each. Get back to me with the street address to send them to if you are interested. Figure $5 for shipping. Rick Schieve schieve@lucent.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 11:17:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:17:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Danger wil Message-ID: <77b2bef7.34903a48@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:08:54 EST To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Card Cages Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Danger wil In a message dated 97-12-11 12:29:04 EST, you write: > $50 each. Get back to > me with the street address to send them to if you are interested. > Figure $5 for shipping. > Good Lord that's a lot of money!!! From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 13:40:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:40:14 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <34905F89.7C7B@an.hp.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:47:53 -0500 From: Joel Rosenzweig Organization: Hewlett-Packard Medical Products Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Tempest troubleshooting References: <348DB6ED.5880@an.hp.com> <348DBEB6.69ED@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Joel Rosenzweig Hi Jess, Thanks for the reply. I ended up pulling out the boards, then reseating the proms on the mathbox. I plugged it back in, and the game works. For now. I didn't run it long enough to see if that was a 'permanent' solution or not. If the problem comes back, I'll check into the information you gave me below. Thanks! Joel- Jess Askey wrote: > > Joel Rosenzweig wrote: > > > > Hi guys, > > > > My Tempest just developed a problem that I've never come across before, > > so I was hoping that somone here might have some more insight into it. > > > > In attract mode, the "Game Over" text now appears 4 times larger than > > normal, and it shows up in the wrong location on screen. It flits > > between where it's supposed to be up top, and the middle of the screen. > > Some of the other text, is doing this to, but I forget which phrases > > they are. The high score table is not affected. > > > > If I coin up the game, the game plays and displays perfectly. > > > > Self test reveals no errors or problems. > > > > As soon as the game goes back into attract mode, I get this crazy text > > problem. When the machine is in self test, I also have the text problem > > with the game difficulty setting and number of ships per game. > > > > Because the game works correctly in game mode, it seems that I can rule > > out the possibility of a faulty analog output stage. Seems more like a > > digital problem. As I said, everthing checks out in self test, so if > > you can believe that information, then the mathbox is OK, and the game > > code is good, and the rams are good. Aiyee.. still seems like a ram > > problem to me, but I'd like to believe the self test knows what it's > > doing!! > > > > Anyone have some ideas of what I might be looking for? > > > > Thanks for any input. I'll have to check Nick's Tempest troubleshooting > > page next, but I don't remember reading anything about this type of > > problem there, but it's been a while. > > > > Joel- > > Sounds like something with the Scaling circuitry. If the scaling is > screwed up at one particular setting (in this case the scale commonly > used by the text), then the invisible line that is drawn from the center > to the point where the text will start will also be proportionally > wrong. > So. If your "game over" text normally would appear like this.. > > ______________________ > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | "c" denotes center of screen > | c | > | | > | Game Over | > | | > | | > | | > |_____________________| > > Now if the problem is indeed in the Scaling circuit you would get a > screen that looked like this. > > ______________________ > | | > | | > | | > | | > | | "c" denotes center of screen > | c | > | | > | | > | | > | | > | GAME OVER | > |_____________________| Where the distance from "c" to the > "g" (in game over) is proportional to the size of the "game over" text. > > I would check the IC at location K8 (LS175) and L8 (LS191). > jess > > -- > Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** > ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * > 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** > Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 18:09:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:09:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971211180120.009c40a0@frobozz.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sswazey@frobozz.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:01:20 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Scott Swazey Subject: RE: tempest help Cc: "Ozdemir, Steve" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Scott Swazey Steve, You might want to try replacing the POKEY chip that is connected to the spinner signals. The tempest I bought had what looked like a bad spinner. It turned out to be a bad pokey chip. -Scott At 08:34 AM 12/10/97 -0800, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: >G'day folks, > >Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming >that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone >know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to >my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > >>---------- >>From: mayday19[SMTP:mayday19@IDT.NET] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 9:37 PM >>To: vectorlist@spies.com >>Cc: mayday19 >>Subject: tempest help >> >>I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want >>to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret >>Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade >>and I didn't want it too much. :> >> >>I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up >>fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super >>zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you >>start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work >>fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times >>and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but >>I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? >> >>Thanks, >>Jeff >>-- >>http://idt.net/~mayday19 >> > > Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 19:29:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:25:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971211192005.0097ddf8@frobozz.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sswazey@frobozz.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:20:05 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Scott Swazey Subject: re: tempest help Cc: "ozdemir, steve" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Scott Swazey steve, you might want to try replacing the pokey chip that is connected to the spinner signals. the tempest i bought had what looked like a bad spinner. it turned out to be a bad pokey chip. -scott at 08:34 am 12/10/97 -0800, ozdemir, steve wrote: >g'day folks, > >along similar lines, i have some bad tempest spinners. i'm assuming >that the led that shines through the wheel has gone bad. does anyone >know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that i could bring to >my electronic's parts store)? thanks! > > steven s ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > >>---------- >>from: mayday19[smtp:mayday19@idt.net] >>sent: tuesday, december 09, 1997 9:37 pm >>to: vectorlist@spies.com >>cc: mayday19 >>subject: tempest help >> >>i just picked up a tempest ur that has a small prob. i will probably want >>to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as i already have a cabaret >>tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is really clean). i did a big trade >>and i didn't want it too much. :> >> >>i haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up >>fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super >>zap, but the spinner will not work. the guy i got it from said if you >>start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work >>fine for as long as the machine is turned on. i tried this a couple times >>and it worked. i've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but >>i'd figure i'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? >> >>thanks, >>jeff >>-- >>http://idt.net/~mayday19 >> > > scott swazey qualcomm incorporated work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com v-209h pager:(619) 683-5210 Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 20:30:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:30:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BD068B.D0012A40@liv27.tir.com> From: Frank Palazzolo To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: ESB ROM questions Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:23:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Frank Palazzolo I'm having a difficult time figuring out what's up with the ROM images in the ESB set. First of all, on both Jess Askey and Brian Peek's site, there is an 8K ROM labelled 136021.103. While in Clay's SW/ESB set, half of the ESB ROM that goes in that same socket is 16K, and the image is labelled 136031.203 in SW_ESB.txt. It appears that 8K of ESB data is missing from Jess and Brian's set. And, what was the original Atari ROM name? Also, in Clay's double-backed roms for the daughterboard, U3 & U2, the images for 136031.105 & 136031.106 are backwards from the labels in Jess' and Brian's set. Are the Jess/Brian numbers right on this one? Any help would be appreciated... Thanks, Frank Palazzolo palazzol@tir.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 21:22:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:22:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3490C96F.14A4@links.magenta.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:19:43 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: ESB ROM questions References: <01BD068B.D0012A40@liv27.tir.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Frank Palazzolo wrote: > > I'm having a difficult time figuring out what's up with > the ROM images in the ESB set. > > First of all, on both Jess Askey and Brian Peek's site, > there is an 8K ROM labelled 136021.103. While in Clay's > SW/ESB set, half of the ESB ROM that goes in that same socket > is 16K, and the image is labelled 136031.203 in SW_ESB.txt. > The ROM's on my site have not been verified by me ever, I don't know if they are good or not. I have always meant to split up all of Clay's images into a proven good set to put on my page but I haven't had the time and no one else has mentioned that they were bad. Also, Brian Peek's ROM's came from my page so that is why they are the same. > It appears that 8K of ESB data is missing from Jess and Brian's set. > And, what was the original Atari ROM name? > > Also, in Clay's double-backed roms for the daughterboard, U3 & U2, > the images for 136031.105 & 136031.106 are backwards from the labels > in Jess' and Brian's set. Are the Jess/Brian numbers right on this > one? > Im sure that Clay's are more reliable than mine.... Clay?? jess -- Jess M. Askey ************* My Page *************** ESLB/The Audio Analyst * http://magenta.com/havoc * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B **********Pins/Vids For Sale ******** Laramie WY 82070 * http://magenta.com/havoc/game-spot * From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 23:32:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:31:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348F8D6D.2B49A6F@istar.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:51:25 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: tempest help References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Back in the old days, when these games were new, when I had to replace a dead opto and none in stock, we would cut the INFRA -Red LED out and replace it with a "Grain of Wheat" light bulb (model trains). This was hooked up to the +5VDC line, and as the bulbs were originally run at 12v, they are still running today. I first used this trick on the old Track Ten driving game that had separate LED's...(some folks used #47 bulbs.) John :-#)# Ozdemir, Steve wrote: > > G'day folks, > > Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming > that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone > know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to > my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > > >---------- > >From: mayday19[SMTP:mayday19@IDT.NET] > >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 9:37 PM > >To: vectorlist@spies.com > >Cc: mayday19 > >Subject: tempest help > > > >I just picked up a Tempest UR that has a small prob. I will probably want > >to sell it right away as soon as it is fixed as I already have a cabaret > >Tempest ($500+shipping, this thing is REALLY clean). I did a big trade > >and I didn't want it too much. :> > > > >I haven't looked at it yet, but the problem is that the game powers up > >fine (monitor looks great), and you can start a game and fire and super > >zap, but the spinner will not work. The guy I got it from said if you > >start a game, remove the aux board connector and replace it, it will work > >fine for as long as the machine is turned on. I tried this a couple times > >and it worked. I've only looked at it long enough to try that so far, but > >I'd figure I'd get a second opinion on it first..any ideas? > > > >Thanks, > >Jeff > >-- > >http://idt.net/~mayday19 > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 11 23:32:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:32:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <348F902B.7865949C@istar.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:03:07 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com, johnbutler@ibm.net Subject: Re: Data I/O Programmer References: <348F46F7.9CB6E36D@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Hi, Which model did you get? I would be interested in this unit as it might program some obsolete chips that I have need to program... John :-#)# John Butler wrote: > > I went to a HAM fest this weekend and picked up a Data I/O Chip Lab programmer for > $50. I got the software and the programmer but no instruction manual. I have > never actually programmed an EPROM before, and I am looking for a good source of > information. I am a computer technician and instructor by trade so I think if I am > given some direction as to tips and tricks I should be OK. Does anyone know of > such a site, or better yet if someone has a manual that they could copy I would > appreciate it. > > Thanks, > > John > -- > John Butler > Mesa, AZ > Collector of Classic Arcade Games and Pinball Machines -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Dec 12 08:49:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:48:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:38 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: ESB ROM questions Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Frank Palazzolo wrote: >> >> I'm having a difficult time figuring out what's up with >> the ROM images in the ESB set. >> >> First of all, on both Jess Askey and Brian Peek's site, >> there is an 8K ROM labelled 136021.103. While in Clay's >> SW/ESB set, half of the ESB ROM that goes in that same socket >> is 16K, and the image is labelled 136031.203 in SW_ESB.txt. >> > >The ROM's on my site have not been verified by me ever, I don't know if >they are good >or not. I have always meant to split up all of Clay's images into a >proven good set to >put on my page but I haven't had the time and no one else has mentioned >that they were >bad. Also, Brian Peek's ROM's came from my page so that is why they are >the same. There are quite a few "bad" ESB ROM sets floating around out there. The set on my page is known good. There is a "gotcha" as you noted below. My daughtercard has the U2 and U3 designators reversed compared to an "original" ESB daughtercard. 'Feh. I don't remember if that was an "oops" or an "intentional". I think it was intentional 'cause it made for sequential numbering across the board that I liked... Of course it's all hodge-podge now 'cause I added the circuitry for the NOVRAMs and whatnot. >> It appears that 8K of ESB data is missing from Jess and Brian's set. >> And, what was the original Atari ROM name? >> >> Also, in Clay's double-backed roms for the daughterboard, U3 & U2, >> the images for 136031.105 & 136031.106 are backwards from the labels >> in Jess' and Brian's set. Are the Jess/Brian numbers right on this >> one? >> > >Im sure that Clay's are more reliable than mine.... Clay?? Yeah, the "8K missing" was the problem I originally had getting ESB going. Someone finally got me good data, but the "bad" ones are pretty well propagated by now. You can make a good set from the data on my webpage by splitting all the ROMs into 16K chunks (4K for the AVG EPROM). The upper half will be ESB. 8K Star Wars EPROMs (like the U2/U3 ones) will be duplicated in the 16K bank. Remember to reverse U2 and U3. (ESB_U2 and ESB_U3 on the daughtercard.) I was going to hook up the logic analyzer to the PLD on the daughtercard and run some test for Neil Bradley since he's still working on ESB for EMU, but haven't got around to it yet. Neil was still stuck last I talked to him. (Hmmm, he still has to come pick up his Xevious too... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Dec 12 21:13:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:11:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:12:21 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: RE: tempest help Cc: "Ozdemir, Steve" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 8:34 12/10/97, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: >G'day folks, > >Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming >that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone >know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to >my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! I'll swap a working one for your bad one + $25. However ANY (and I do mean ANY) Infra-red transmitter/detector pair will work. There are 2 pairs and you can tell which is which by the markings on the underside of the PCB. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE (although I have done it once) to remove the LEDs from the curved black enclosures but as long as your game is inside a cabinet (i.e. dark and with constant interior temp), you don't need the casing. Replace 1 pair (in a casing) and test. If it doesn't work, replace the other (actually you can test them but it really isn't worth the time). B.G. Micro sells a pair that will work for ~ 50 cents. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Dec 12 21:13:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:12:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:12:13 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Quantum restoration in progress (Beg, borrow, or steal post) Cc: Joel Rosenzweig Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 10:08 12/10/97, Joel Rosenzweig wrote: >Don't forget that you still need the deflection yoke and the magnetic >ring assembly to actually use one of these tubes. > >BTW, if anyone has a yoke assembly (from either Amplifone or WG) for >sale, I'm interested. I have 3 types of W-G color vector yokes: used in good condition: $40 NOS: $65 NOS and fucntional but smashed into ~40 pieces (1 only; oops!): $15 I think I have a spare yoke ring but this should be generic to ANY monitor. Will trade yokes for almost any other arcade game stuff. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Dec 13 06:25:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:24:13 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34924668.7C61@idt.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:25:13 +0000 From: Dwight Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Boxing Bugs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Dwight Anderson I came across 2 Boxing Bugs boardsets yesterday and I want to hook them up! I dont have them in my posession yet, but I am told 1 is complete and 1 is missing a board (probably the color decoder board). I have never been inside a BB obviously so I need all the details..Which monitor does it use? Does anybody have a manual/schematics you can copy for me (Zonn? Steve? I'll pay for your trouble). What is the spinner like? I have a few extra spinners, so which of these would work the best: Tempest, Tron, or Star Trek spinners? What voltages does the board need? Anything else I need to know? Thanks! Jeff -- http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Dec 13 06:45:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:44:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34924B4E.441@idt.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:46:06 +0000 From: Jeff Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Boxing Bugs References: <34924668.7C61@idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jeff Anderson sorry, I loaded new software from my ISP and my dad's name was on it again... > I came across 2 Boxing Bugs boardsets yesterday and I want to hook them > up! I dont have them in my posession yet, but I am told 1 is complete > and 1 is missing a board (probably the color decoder board). > > I have never been inside a BB obviously so I need all the details..Which > monitor does it use? Does anybody have a manual/schematics you can copy > for me (Zonn? Steve? I'll pay for your trouble). What is the spinner > like? I have a few extra spinners, so which of these would work the > best: Tempest, Tron, or Star Trek spinners? What voltages does the > board need? Anything else I need to know? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > -- > http://idt.net/~mayday19 From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Dec 13 09:32:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:31:51 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971213173507.02875008@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:35:07 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: RE: tempest help Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" At 11:12 PM 12/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 8:34 12/10/97, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: >>G'day folks, >> >>Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming >>that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone >>know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to >>my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! > >I'll swap a working one for your bad one + $25. However ANY (and I do mean >ANY) Infra-red transmitter/detector pair will work. There are 2 pairs and >you can tell which is which by the markings on the underside of the PCB. >It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE (although I have done it once) to remove the >LEDs from the curved black enclosures but as long as your game is inside a >cabinet (i.e. dark and with constant interior temp), you don't need the >casing. Replace 1 pair (in a casing) and test. If it doesn't work, >replace the other (actually you can test them but it really isn't worth the >time). B.G. Micro sells a pair that will work for ~ 50 cents. Now I'm curious. Is it the led or the phototransistor that usually fails? -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Dec 14 14:14:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:12:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:13:48 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: RE: tempest help Cc: "Christopher V. Moore" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 12:35 12/13/97, Christopher V. Moore wrote: >At 11:12 PM 12/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >>At 8:34 12/10/97, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: >>>G'day folks, >>> >>>Along similar lines, I have some bad Tempest spinners. I'm assuming >>>that the LED that shines through the wheel has gone bad. Does anyone >>>know of a replacement part (or better yet a number that I could bring to >>>my electronic's parts store)? Thanks! >> >>I'll swap a working one for your bad one + $25. However ANY (and I do mean >>ANY) Infra-red transmitter/detector pair will work. There are 2 pairs and >>you can tell which is which by the markings on the underside of the PCB. >>It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE (although I have done it once) to remove the >>LEDs from the curved black enclosures but as long as your game is inside a >>cabinet (i.e. dark and with constant interior temp), you don't need the >>casing. Replace 1 pair (in a casing) and test. If it doesn't work, >>replace the other (actually you can test them but it really isn't worth the >>time). B.G. Micro sells a pair that will work for ~ 50 cents. > >Now I'm curious. Is it the led or the phototransistor that usually fails? In my experience it is the detector that fails but you're not hearing what I'm saying. It doesn't matter since the individual parts cannot be removed from the casing that joins a pair (xmit/rec) together so 1 good part and 1 bad part must be removed anyways so there really isn't any good reason to test it! It isn't even worth the extra time to use a dremel and cut the casing apart. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 15 18:21:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:20:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:21:40 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Just misc. updates here. DaveF looked through the Tac/Scan code and found a few locations that needed some attention. I'm running the new code on real hardware and it seems to have fixed the problems I saw with the "cracked" ROMs. (Atta-boy to DaveF, again!) Travis (my "beta-tester" :-) hasn't found anything else suspicious with the rest of the games so far. I've been building daughtercards at the rate of about one a night (fully "testing" with a game or two of Zektor and Tac/Scan... ;-) so I'll probably get some shipped out to people that have pre-paid in the next week. --- end sega multigame stuff --- As for the PC-vector generator card... (Zonn! Input! Need Input! Hint-hint don't let that job get in the way of the important stuff! ;-) I've got a VHDL compiler all set up and targeting to the Cypress 371i. (About $6 in singles.) If the adders get too big we can target to the 372i (64 macrocells instead of 32) for about $10 a pop. The Lattice rep is bringing me a copy of Synario with VHDL support, so I'll see how that looks too... Trivia... Ripple-adders are kind-of a pig when it comes to programmable device resources. Each pass (bit) takes a macrocell, so a 12 bit adder eats ~38% of a 32 macrocell PLD! Still though-- a comparitor, an adder, a subtractor, and some registers should cover what we need for Bresenham's in hardware. ( And for just $12 a pop the CY7C373I is in-circuit programmable, comes in an 84 pin PLCC (with 64 I/O's!) and has 64 macrocells... Could probably glue that directly to a pair of 12-bit parallel DACs and a databus without any external parts. Kinda cool. ;-) All this PLD stuff is still orders of magnitude faster than we need, even with a BUNCH of passes through the array. (Back of envelope calculation of 12 bit ripple-adders resulted in an 8MHz draw rate. 3-bit look-ahead adders were several orders of magnitude faster, but eat P-terms much faster, yet save Macrocells... Gotta love CPLD lingo.) Al-- did you by chance look up that old hardware-assist Bresenham's dual 68K project you did way back when? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 15 18:25:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:25:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:25:53 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Trivia... Ripple-adders are kind-of a pig when it comes to programmable device resources. Each pass (bit) takes a macrocell, so a 12 bit adder eats ~38% of a 32 macrocell PLD! Still though-- a comparitor, an adder, a subtractor, and some registers should cover what we need for Bresenham's in hardware." ..do it serially! you've got the clock speed I talked to Jim, and he's trying to find the data. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 05:50:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Message-Id: <199712161349.HAA21361@sijer.Mayo.EDU> Subject: Vectrex To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:49:17 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Dec 15, 97 06:25:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Rhea, Cristopher J." (Cris Rhea) Who's the guy who has the multi-game carts for the Vectrex?? I have one of the old ones (dip switches), but heard that there is a new one that has a menu on the game instead.... I'd like to get one of these for my second Vectrex.... --- Cris ----------------------------------------------------------- Cristopher J. Rhea Mayo Foundation Research Computing Facility Guggenheim 1001B crhea@Mayo.EDU Rochester, MN 55905 Fax: (507) 266-4486 (507) 284-0587 ----------------------------------------------------------- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 06:29:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:28:48 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BD09F3.FD775100@slip129-37-235-48.az.us.ibm.net> From: John Butler To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Data I/O Programmer Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:26:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD09F3.FD7EF220" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Butler ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD09F3.FD7EF220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: John Robertson [SMTP:pinball@istar.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 12:03 AM To: vectorlist@spies.com; johnbutler@ibm.net Cc: John Robertson Subject: Re: Data I/O Programmer Hi,=20 Which model did you get? I would be interested in this unit as it might program some obsolete chips that I have need to program... John :-#)# [] I have the ChipLab 48+1 and have tested it and it is working = perfectly with my notebook computer. It will not work with my Pentium = desktop but I just got done programming a set of 12in1pac ROM's. I am = of course very happy with it and it is not for sale. If you send me a = device list that you need programmed I will check to see if it will do = them. =20 Perhaps we can exchange me programming the eproms for you making an = adapter for that Galaga clone board to JAMMA. Let's see what we can do. = =20 By the way, is the mail strike over? 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To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:37:22 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 15, 97 06:21:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > As for the PC-vector generator card... (Zonn! Input! Need Input! > Hint-hint don't let that job get in the way of the important stuff! ;-) > I've got a VHDL compiler all set up and targeting to the Cypress 371i. > (About $6 in singles.) If the adders get too big we can target to the 372i > (64 macrocells instead of 32) for about $10 a pop. The Lattice rep is > bringing me a copy of Synario with VHDL support, so I'll see how that looks > too... > > Trivia... Ripple-adders are kind-of a pig when it comes to programmable > device resources. Each pass (bit) takes a macrocell, so a 12 bit adder > eats ~38% of a 32 macrocell PLD! Still though-- a comparitor, an adder, a > subtractor, and some registers should cover what we need for Bresenham's in > hardware. And what if you just used 24 bit adders and did fixed point (x,y) += (dx,yd)? You would eliminate the subtractor & the comparator. This is the 90's, we don't use Bresenham any more (see bitmap rotation source on my web page). Of course part of the vector setup would involve a divide but you could keep that on the PC. More importantly I want to know why you're going to do a DVG in the first place? You probably don't like analog stuff (nor do I) but there really isn't much to a vector generator. You'd probably want to do it cinematronics style (which doesn't use integrators) since some form of "absolute" positioning is needed for the DVG & Cine games. I just don't like the artifacts you get with the DVG. Just some thoughts... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 06:41:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:40:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712161443.JAA16511@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:43:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Dec 15, 97 06:25:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > "Trivia... Ripple-adders are kind-of a pig when it comes to programmable > device resources. Each pass (bit) takes a macrocell, so a 12 bit adder > eats ~38% of a 32 macrocell PLD! Still though-- a comparitor, an adder, a > subtractor, and some registers should cover what we need for Bresenham's in > hardware." > > ..do it serially! you've got the clock speed B... B... B..... BAAAARRFF!!! Sorry Al ;-) It should reduce the gate count anyway... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 09:03:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:02:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:58 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Vectrex Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Who's the guy who has the multi-game carts for the Vectrex?? > >I have one of the old ones (dip switches), but heard that there is a new >one that has a menu on the game instead.... > >I'd like to get one of these for my second Vectrex.... Ummmm. That would be Sean Kelly (Kelley?). He has a web-site... www.xnet.com/~skelly/ -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 09:57:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:56:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:57:32 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >And what if you just used 24 bit adders and did fixed point (x,y) += (dx,yd)? >You would eliminate the subtractor & the comparator. This is the 90's, we >don't use Bresenham any more (see bitmap rotation source on my web page). Of >course part of the vector setup would involve a divide but you could keep >that on the PC. Hmmmm. Ok, so let me see if I'm following you in theory... Define a 24 bit fixed point format like... xxxxxxxxxxxx.yyyyyyyyyyyy 'x' is the whole part, 'y' is the fractional part. Then you just add something like 000000000000dddddddddddd every iteration to give your line some slope (and a rate based on magnitude). So what would the "vectorlist" look like that gets fed to the line-draw engine? A start point and a series of delta's? (That'd be kinda cool 'cause you could do curves and splines... at the expense of lots of RAM for the vectorlist.) For straight lines it seems like you'd want a comparator on the upper 12 bits to stop a line draw when the destination is reached? That's kind-of a neat idea. You could even do intensity control depending on the magnitude of the delta that's added to each line position counter. Interesting. Like: Position Delta End 0,0 .02,.03 2,3 0,0 .04,.06 2,3 Create the same line, but the top one does it in 100 "clocks" and the bottom one does it in 50 "clocks". Interesting. I bet you wouldn't need full 24 bit adders either... >More importantly I want to know why you're going to do a DVG in the first >place? You probably don't like analog stuff (nor do I) but there really >isn't much to a vector generator. You'd probably want to do it cinematronics >style (which doesn't use integrators) since some form of "absolute" >positioning is needed for the DVG & Cine games. I just don't like the >artifacts you get with the DVG. I had actually started an Atari AVG-like design a while back, but Zonn kinda talked me out of it. (Zonn and his damn *exactly* meeting lines... ;-) I also think that the DVG will be much easier to debug and figure out at first. If it doesn't give the performance needed, it's just back to the drawing board. ;-) I have a feeling that a DVG could look pretty good. I can run the DVG section MUCH faster than the 3MHz that Atari used, and then use true 12-bit inputs to the DACs (use more of my clock ticks for finer steps between positions). Between the two I think it'd make for a pretty good looking display. A large part of the goal is to keep the cost of the hardware down. It's not like I'd ever make more than a few dozen of 'em, and I think it'd have to be under $100 to be affordable for most people. >Just some thoughts... Keep 'em coming! Nothing cast in stone yet, just tinkering with ideas still. If Zonn tells me an easy way to make Bresenham's algorithm self-clocking I'll probably still try that. (It kinda looks like Bresenham's stuff would actually run without any sort of clock... A clock could then be used to just synchronize the outputs. Have to get farther into the problem first...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 10:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:09:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: Atari color XY repair in the Bay Area Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:09:48 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, The person that I've sold my cocktail Tempest to has asked if I know anyone in the Bay Area who'd be willing to repair his Atari color XY monitor in the unlikely event that it breaks down at some point in the future. Would anyone in the Bay Area be willing to give their name to the buyer? He's is located in Santa Cruz but commutes daily to the Bay Area and could drop off the monitor anywhere on the pennisula. (If you're willing to help him out in the future, send your email address to me and I'll make introductions privately.) Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I would have restricted distribution of my request for future help to CA (and Bay Area) if there was a way to do this on an email list. I don't think the buyer is willing to ship his monitor to get it fixed. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 10:58:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:56:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712161859.NAA24301@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:59:33 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 16, 97 09:57:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > >And what if you just used 24 bit adders and did fixed point (x,y) += (dx,yd)? > >You would eliminate the subtractor & the comparator. This is the 90's, we > >don't use Bresenham any more (see bitmap rotation source on my web page). Of > >course part of the vector setup would involve a divide but you could keep > >that on the PC. > > Hmmmm. Ok, so let me see if I'm following you in theory... > > Define a 24 bit fixed point format like... > > xxxxxxxxxxxx.yyyyyyyyyyyy > > 'x' is the whole part, 'y' is the fractional part. Yup [...] > So what would the "vectorlist" look like that gets fed to the line-draw > engine? A start point and a series of delta's? (That'd be kinda cool > 'cause you could do curves and splines... at the expense of lots of RAM for > the vectorlist.) start point (X,Y) , Delta (dx,dy) and number of points. The start and end points could be specified with only the integer bits, while the deltas could be only the 1-bit and the fractional part i.e. x.yyyyyyyyyyyy Also, the fractional part need only have as many bits as the pixel counter - if you plot 512 "dots" you only need 9-10 fractional bits since any error smaller than that wouldn't add up to 1 after 512 dots. I'm assuming that you won't want to move more than "one dot" at a time (i.e. dx<=1, dy<=1) so you don't need the extra bits in the "vector list". Of course if the integer bits are not specified, you'll need to sign-extend what is there. If you add (ddx,ddy) to (dx,dy) each itteration, you'll be able to do parabolas (don't try this with an analog version :) and so-on to the higher order curves... These start to want more precision, but maybe not any more bits i.e. ddx = +/- 0.0000xxxxxxxxx to be added to dx. This type of thing would be WAY cool but would complicate things quite a bit unless you start routing all the data through the same adder! How's this: Add dx,ddx Add dy,ddy Add X,dx Add Y,dy dec Count loop Count>0 Output (int(X), int(Y)) All using 24-bit fixed point. > For straight lines it seems like you'd want a comparator on the upper 12 > bits to stop a line draw when the destination is reached? Just count dots. > That's kind-of a neat idea. You could even do intensity control depending > on the magnitude of the delta that's added to each line position counter. > Interesting. Yup, but now that you mention it, the same thing would affect intensity on the curves - of course those are just a possible bonus feature. > Like: > > Position Delta End > 0,0 .02,.03 2,3 > 0,0 .04,.06 2,3 > > Create the same line, but the top one does it in 100 "clocks" and the > bottom one does it in 50 "clocks". Interesting. > > I bet you wouldn't need full 24 bit adders either... Depends on dot count and weather or not you want to do curves. And now that you got me all excited about curves... > >Just some thoughts... > > Keep 'em coming! Nothing cast in stone yet, just tinkering with ideas > still. If Zonn tells me an easy way to make Bresenham's algorithm > self-clocking I'll probably still try that. (It kinda looks like > Bresenham's stuff would actually run without any sort of clock... A clock > could then be used to just synchronize the outputs. Have to get farther > into the problem first...) I'll let ya know if anything else hits me ;-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 11:57:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:55:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:56:35 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >start point (X,Y) , Delta (dx,dy) and number of points. The start and end >points could be specified with only the integer bits, while the deltas >could be only the 1-bit and the fractional part i.e. x.yyyyyyyyyyyy Also, >the fractional part need only have as many bits as the pixel counter - if >you plot 512 "dots" you only need 9-10 fractional bits since any error >smaller than that wouldn't add up to 1 after 512 dots. I'm assuming that >you won't want to move more than "one dot" at a time (i.e. dx<=1, dy<=1) >so you don't need the extra bits in the "vector list". Of course if the >integer bits are not specified, you'll need to sign-extend what is there. Moving "fractional" portions of pixels/dots/whatever is handy for rate-control and makes really fluid movement easy from the software side. Just gives you some easy dynamic range to play with. No real reason to "need" it though. Actually, I bet the dot size of the (focused) beam on a 19" raster tube is probably larger than the lower bit or two of resolution from a 12bit DAC. (Not to mention the shadow-mask.) This is really just the Sega G-80 vector generator at this point. Direction (angle) described by your rise/run pairs, length of line for the length counter. It works prety well for the Sega stuff-- the only thing that looks a little ugly is that they perform the angle->delta conversion in relatively low resolution so "large" objects don't rotate smoothly onscreen. That would be avoided here since the PC can do the transform and just send the high-precision deltas to the line engine. >If you add (ddx,ddy) to (dx,dy) each itteration, you'll be able to do >parabolas (don't try this with an analog version :) and so-on to the >higher order curves... These start to want more precision, but maybe not >any more bits i.e. ddx = +/- 0.0000xxxxxxxxx to be added to dx. This type >of thing would be WAY cool but would complicate things quite a bit unless >you start routing all the data through the same adder! How's this: > >Add dx,ddx >Add dy,ddy >Add X,dx >Add Y,dy >dec Count >loop Count>0 >Output (int(X), int(Y)) That looks do-able, but at a synthesis level I'll actually need an adder and a subtractor that gets selected based on the sign of the delta's. A 2-bit full-carry lookahead adder cell cascaded to make a 12 bit adder takes 28 macrocells... A full 24bit adder and subtractor might take the better part of a 128 macrocell CPLD by themselves. Well, as long as I do it in VHDL I should be able to retarget to an FPGA is worse comes to worse... Xilinx 4000 series parts are really cheap now... >> For straight lines it seems like you'd want a comparator on the upper 12 >> bits to stop a line draw when the destination is reached? > >Just count dots. Gotcha. That makes sense. >> That's kind-of a neat idea. You could even do intensity control depending >> on the magnitude of the delta that's added to each line position counter. >> Interesting. > >Yup, but now that you mention it, the same thing would affect intensity on >the curves - of course those are just a possible bonus feature. True. Might look pretty neat on a vector screen though... 8^) >Depends on dot count and weather or not you want to do curves. And now that >you got me all excited about curves... :-) >I'll let ya know if anything else hits me ;-) Sounds good. Zonn must be busy working. I can't believe he's resisting from commenting so far. ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 14:02:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:02:21 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712162205.RAA30226@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:05:09 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 16, 97 11:56:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > Moving "fractional" portions of pixels/dots/whatever is handy for > rate-control and makes really fluid movement easy from the software side. > Just gives you some easy dynamic range to play with. No real reason to > "need" it though. Well ya, you need fractional pixels/dots to get variable slope without using bresenham. > Actually, I bet the dot size of the (focused) beam on a 19" raster tube is > probably larger than the lower bit or two of resolution from a 12bit DAC. > (Not to mention the shadow-mask.) Good point. But some may want to run on a B/W monitor and then you need all the resolution you can get. That wouldn't be me though. > This is really just the Sega G-80 vector generator at this point. It's also a direct digital implementation of the AVG. > >If you add (ddx,ddy) to (dx,dy) each itteration, you'll be able to do > >parabolas (don't try this with an analog version :) and so-on to the > >higher order curves... These start to want more precision, but maybe not > >any more bits i.e. ddx = +/- 0.0000xxxxxxxxx to be added to dx. This type > >of thing would be WAY cool but would complicate things quite a bit unless > >you start routing all the data through the same adder! How's this: > > > >Add dx,ddx > >Add dy,ddy > >Add X,dx > >Add Y,dy > >dec Count > >loop Count>0 > >Output (int(X), int(Y)) > > That looks do-able, but at a synthesis level I'll actually need an adder > and a subtractor that gets selected based on the sign of the delta's. A > 2-bit full-carry lookahead adder cell cascaded to make a 12 bit adder takes > 28 macrocells... A full 24bit adder and subtractor might take the better > part of a 128 macrocell CPLD by themselves. Well, as long as I do it in > VHDL I should be able to retarget to an FPGA is worse comes to worse... > Xilinx 4000 series parts are really cheap now... You don't need a subtractor. The PC can output 2's complement numbers for the deltas. An adder can't tell weather it's adding 4095 or -1, they are the same 12-bit number (This also works in fixed point). That's why I say it'd be nice if you could use a single 24-bit adder and sequence the registers though it. Can you fit a 4x24 or 6x24 register file, a 24bit adder, and the control stuff all on the chip? > >I'll let ya know if anything else hits me ;-) It just hit me! The 2nd order system (using ddx & ddy) would allow another feature: Variable intensity along a line. Rather than using them to draw a curve, you could use them to simply alter the speed of a straight line draw. It'd be cool to have vectors that fade to black (as the beam speeds up). Oh, but all the features of a 2nd order system could only be used in NEW vector games, and no one would ever want to write one of those ;-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 14:59:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:59:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:00:38 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >> Moving "fractional" portions of pixels/dots/whatever is handy for >> rate-control and makes really fluid movement easy from the software side. >> Just gives you some easy dynamic range to play with. No real reason to >> "need" it though. > >Well ya, you need fractional pixels/dots to get variable slope without >using bresenham. Well, sorta-- you need it for calculation, but not necessarily for plotting. (Anything smaller than the discernable resolution of the tube could be left out...) >> Actually, I bet the dot size of the (focused) beam on a 19" raster tube is >> probably larger than the lower bit or two of resolution from a 12bit DAC. >> (Not to mention the shadow-mask.) > >Good point. But some may want to run on a B/W monitor and then you need >all the resolution you can get. That wouldn't be me though. The detail of the Vectrex still manages to amaze me. Gotta like no masks/grills between beam and screen. :-) >> This is really just the Sega G-80 vector generator at this point. > >It's also a direct digital implementation of the AVG. Yeah, I suppose so. Slopes on the integrators and time dictating the length... It's the same as a Vectrex too... >You don't need a subtractor. The PC can output 2's complement numbers for >the deltas. An adder can't tell weather it's adding 4095 or -1, they are >the same 12-bit number (This also works in fixed point). That's why I say >it'd be nice if you could use a single 24-bit adder and sequence the >registers though it. Can you fit a 4x24 or 6x24 register file, a 24bit >adder, and the control stuff all on the chip? Oh, yeah... As long as everything's pre-cooked to 2's complement that's cool. Good point. The register file might be the toughest part. Each bit will take a Macrocell, so just a 4x24 consumes 75% of a 128 m-cell device. :-( A 24 bit adder isn't exactly skinny either. I suppose there's tricks that can be played here though... You could keep the vectorlist in a large (32Kx8 or 128Kx8 SRAM) and use a few bytes high in RAM to store the position counters, then just load the one you need at any given time. If you made an assumption that any delta value must be less than 1, you could accumulate delta's with a 12 bit adder and carry 1 with a separate 12bit add for the whole portion. Clock speed is on our side, so doing a bunch of operations isn't too much of a problem... >> >I'll let ya know if anything else hits me ;-) > >It just hit me! The 2nd order system (using ddx & ddy) would allow >another feature: Variable intensity along a line. Rather than using >them to draw a curve, you could use them to simply alter the speed >of a straight line draw. It'd be cool to have vectors that fade to >black (as the beam speeds up). Oh, but all the features of a 2nd order >system could only be used in NEW vector games, and no one would ever >want to write one of those ;-) Yeah, that should work. This might be neat to play with... ;-) I might just try a Bresenham-based engine to get my feet wet and see if it'll work. (I'm a VHDL newbie at this point, so less complex is probably a good idea for starters...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 15:28:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:28:17 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:29:52 GMT Message-ID: <349b0586.512485697@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_34970ef051489675401c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) ----=_34970ef051489675401c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:56:35 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: > >Sounds good. Zonn must be busy working. I can't believe he's resisting > from commenting so far. ;-) Yeah yeah yeah!! (Just don't let anybody here at work know I've spent time on this or = they'd freak!) I can't really describe what I mean by self clocking without a diagram. = I used ORCAD and have created a file designed for an HP Laserjet 4si. (Anybody = know how to get a graphic file -- .BMP or something -- of the schematic from = an ORCAD capture?) Definitions: LLC =3D Line Length Counter BCR =3D Bresenham Control Register So here's what it does: The CPU would start things by loading: - The increments used when the BCR is positive and negative. - The starting addresses of the DAC counters if the trace is to be moved = to another starting point. - For even lines (same small segment lengths on both sides of the line), = the initial BCR value is preloaded. - The X and Y Master selects are setup to indicate which counter is the = master (incremented on every clock pulse) and which one is incremented only when= the BCR is negative. - The Inc/Dec inputs are set to indicate which direction the lines is to = be drawn. - The line will begin drawing upon loading of the Line Length Counter. Theory of operation (except where indicated all logic is active high): The [CLK] begins when the sign flag of the LLC is set to low (in this = case the ENB going into the [CLK] is active low). The [CLK] output is either divided by 5 or 7 depending on which divider = is selected by the sign flag of the [BCR] which goes into the clock [mux]. Also selected by the [BCR] sign flag is the increment being fed into the = [ADDER] which is used to update the [BCR] register on each clock. (Note the add = takes place on the rising edge of the clock, while the [BCR] is updated on the = falling edge.) Depending on how X Master Sel and Y Master Sel are setup, and the state = of the [BCR] sign flag, one or both of the DAC counters will be updated. This is all typical Bresenham stuff except for the 5 and 7 dividers. = Those are used to auto clock the trace which will allow all traces to be drawn at = the proper speed. This is done by knowing that one cycle of Bresenham clock can only do one= of two things: A) Clock a single DAC counter, in which case the trace will move in a = vertical or horizontal direction. B) Clock both DAC counters, in which case the trace will move in a = diagonal direction. Now assuming the vertical and horizontal resolutions are equal. All = movement will be in a square. So if a horizontal or vertical movement is made the distance moved will be "D". If a diagonal movement is done the distance = will be SQRT(D+D) or 1.4142D. If the Divide by 7 is selected for diagonal movement and the divide by 5 = used for horizontal/vertical movement, then the time allocated for a diagonal movement will be 1.4 times longer then that of a horz/vert movement. Each movement of the trace will wait for the proper amount of time, and = the trace as a whole will reflect this same time. For instance a completely horizontal line will be drawn in T time, while a completely diagonal line= will be drawn in 1.4T time. On the opposite end of things each microstep will= also be the proper amount of time so there will be no "hot spots" on the line segments. By setting the Neg and Pos Inc registers to 0, and setting the [BCR] to a= neg or positive number, horizontal, vertical, and diagonal lines maybe drawn. Note: There are some bugs and omissions in the pseudo schematic, but it = should be enough to show what I'm talking about. -Zonn (Sure wish I had the time to place this is an PLD myself :^( ) <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ ----=_34970ef051489675401c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=Bres.zip Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Bres.zip UEsDBBQAAgAIACZ1kCNZQCNgmVsAAEIYAQAIAAAAQlJFUy5QUk7svAl0VEX6PlxV9/aa7vSaTqf3 Ticdks6+dkhIOmRhhwABEiQS9tVhCbgrwQ1lERR1BB1l1BkXQJpFJ4BOAuICijjjNjM6ggpuIwPO oLNIuv9P3e6EgDjj+X/f+X7nO+fXN7W/datuvW9tbz0Ve3pOQWFRcUlzqHH4SM/4+iZPY82Q+sZx Y5rqa5sGjWloUPcljKsfP2bkhKZhY0YPKs3Pj8XXj26qH+cZWTN6yARkG9RYO1Kttdfbs5aBYpzd vxxOnT1raX6D3b+wYAys/PHcGgqrcFpwRgFIF+dfm99iz5qRv6ystKjw2pJgEEFQN9vT8wcPG91Y 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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:09:14 GMT Message-ID: <349f1769.517065503@tommy.doctord.com> References: <349b0586.512485697@tommy.doctord.com> In-Reply-To: <349b0586.512485697@tommy.doctord.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_3497182a51725888001c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) ----=_3497182a51725888001c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:29:52 GMT, zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) wrote: >(Anybody know >how to get a graphic file -- .BMP or something -- of the schematic from = an ORCAD >capture?) To answer my own question, cut & paste in Windows '95 is a wonderful = thing... Here's the image cut from ORCAD, pasted to Paint Shop Pro, and saved as a= .BMP file (B&W .BMP files, by far, compress the best when using PKZIP). -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ ----=_3497182a51725888001c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=Bresbmp.zip Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Bresbmp.zip UEsDBBQAAgAIAISAkCPnmxu4JyQAAJr+EgAIAAAAQlJFUy5CTVDt3V2S27piqFGdygzylCFkBPd1 V+U9bxlC5uF5ZIJ3FkG03ekOTRIQf0D8rlU6Lu92u49IQcRnUoL+7d//67//+fW3//f+37++//cf //R6/f9/vF7/eP3L76//5//++VKAJ73a40Ep88C7uc14A5AAjR0MtZ/2c3PTfgDaj6fyDwx4AO3n /pgKwYAH0H7az1QIBjyA9tN+pkIw4AG0n/YzFYIBD6C1tJ+pEAx4AK2l/UyFYMADaD9MhWDAA2g/ TIVgwANoP0yFYMADaD9MhRjwANrP/TEVggEPoP3cn9Efe1MhBjzAbLSfqRAMeADt5/6YCsGAB9B+ 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3wThB45IQC/tF3o4BepI2/ImmFzAEQmYof1KvvTRkbbZTTCzgCMSMFv71T3CONJW3IRiG5t4JXPi LWwBar/WKHx6jU249I/o4y+/8UQA7ffwhy9UOAGo/WptQuEtTaw4urtIaYAajiyGGfvitade+fU2 Ae3XQhJov5KbUOsqf2LK0340+/EKR1bGuHO+WvuB9tN+dQ3ffhUv7h9pv34XnEf7aT+g0/YrfLTR fiU3ofqrOtOv94Me2+/UNVztB9rv/vKevSeQ9iu2CSYRyPLC1MRXjr+Dw3s9QPu1Firab7D2M4NA rvd6DPlmfED7FTvmaL8Cm2D6gPtrvGR8Qmk/GJX2034tbIK5Axo87h287Ov5C9pP+2m/U5tg4gBH JED7NXXYcaQt9qZawBEJ0H7ab9T2M2WAIxJQmPZzpG1kFWXAEQnQfjfXFcx4W12m3AoFe2aez/MF tB+g/aqc9/u4mGqZe+JIC2g/QPuFGhco0wvpO9IC2g9okPbL1X6xb3OkBbQfoP16XOM0HFihTvsB 2g/Qfp3+8LOv93OkBbQfoP2G+VyP5dm/2O8daQHtB7Ss6/ab9r0VjrQwefu1xoMCfbVfmcXxtJ/2 AwBcnuiif7QfAEDFUJn89XXaDwBolvbTfgCA9su41J72AwAYL1RqNY/2AwAoGSp1lxHQfgAABUKl kcWjtB8AQIFlSENXrTXteoMAAPOculx+2u/qQ34f6ljtBwBQpf2Wn+q7/c7Vn2o/AADtp/0AAHps v9U3D/B5dgAA2k/7AQBov0cv9Wo/AICK7Zd4h294cnFC7QcAYG1nAACeW576r9evVyUeFACAwt7t ZycAAGg/AAC0HwAA2g8AAO0HAID2AwBA+wEAoP0AANB+AABoPwAAtB8AQKsfwnvlpv0AAHqsvmt/ UfsBAHTkWvVpPwCASU73aT8AgO5e15flvRtnb/Y/AEB3Z/zuXy8GAKCk8td8AQDotwC1HwDAPIv7 aT8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYKyVWP62+5Wfr7++bf9K7K9vv2H1bQAAVGy/baEt+y382XWxnFv9 lfQ3AwDQfvuFyBm/7Xm/j98MAED59ktfpd09mxf2om73TKDzfgAA7bTfxz9dxeHBmDz1fwQAAHDN /wBQSwECFAAUAAIACACEgJAj55sbuCckAACa/hIACAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAQlJFUy5CTVBQ SwUGAAAAAAEAAQA2AAAATSQAAAAA ----=_3497182a51725888001c789a9.MFSBCHJLHS-- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 16:35:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:35:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:37:10 GMT Message-ID: <34a01e0e.518767345@tommy.doctord.com> References: <349b0586.512485697@tommy.doctord.com> <349f1769.517065503@tommy.doctord.com> In-Reply-To: <349f1769.517065503@tommy.doctord.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:09:14 GMT, zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) wrote: >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:29:52 GMT, zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) wrote: > >>(Anybody know >>how to get a graphic file -- .BMP or something -- of the schematic from= an ORCAD >>capture?) > >To answer my own question, cut & paste in Windows '95 is a wonderful = thing... > >Here's the image cut from ORCAD, pasted to Paint Shop Pro, and saved as = a .BMP >file (B&W .BMP files, by far, compress the best when using PKZIP). Well that picture really sucked. I don't want to spend the rest of the = day spamming vectorlist, so if anyone really wants a readable version of the = pseudo schematic, let me know, and I'll send a readable one "one more time". (Geeze!) -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 17:06:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:05:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:06:51 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >>Here's the image cut from ORCAD, pasted to Paint Shop Pro, and saved as a .BMP >>file (B&W .BMP files, by far, compress the best when using PKZIP). > >Well that picture really sucked. I don't want to spend the rest of the day >spamming vectorlist, so if anyone really wants a readable version of the pseudo >schematic, let me know, and I'll send a readable one "one more time". I can read an OrCAD design file from pretty much any version if you want to send me one of those... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 16 21:05:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:05:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216210610.007d3a20@ng.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@ng.netgate.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:06:10 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Re: Boxing Bugs In-Reply-To: <34924668.7C61@idt.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: The Grigsbeast Boxing Bugs uses a Wells. // grigs From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 06:43:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:43:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712171446.JAA10082@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:46:15 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 16, 97 03:00:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > The register file might be the toughest part. Each bit will take a > Macrocell, so just a 4x24 consumes 75% of a 128 m-cell device. :-( A 24 > bit adder isn't exactly skinny either. I suppose there's tricks that can > be played here though... You could keep the vectorlist in a large (32Kx8 > or 128Kx8 SRAM) and use a few bytes high in RAM to store the position > counters, then just load the one you need at any given time. If you made > an assumption that any delta value must be less than 1, you could > accumulate delta's with a 12 bit adder and carry 1 with a separate 12bit > add for the whole portion. Clock speed is on our side, so doing a bunch of > operations isn't too much of a problem... If the ram isn't fast enough, you can leave the last value read (a delta) sitting on the data lines for the duration of the draw :-) I suppose we can simulate the process by writing an equivalent line drawer for an emulator - then we could test the required number of bits. I think 10.10 fixed point or *maybe* 10.8 would be enough. But I still want curves ;-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 10:29:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:29:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:28:59 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: PC web links Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) just stumbled upon this.. http://www.lvr.com/pcbs.htm looking for someone who makes a PCI IEEE 1284 parallel port card (anyone know of one?, guess I'll be building one if not..) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 10:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:21 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC web links Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) doh.. actually I meant to type PCB, not PC I shudder to think how many Alta Vista hits you'd get on "PC" :-) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 10:46:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:45:57 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:47:32 GMT Message-ID: <34981a2f.583322348@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:00:38 -0800, Clay Cowgill = wrote: >>> Moving "fractional" portions of pixels/dots/whatever is handy for >>> rate-control and makes really fluid movement easy from the software = side. >>> Just gives you some easy dynamic range to play with. No real reason = to >>> "need" it though. >> >>Well ya, you need fractional pixels/dots to get variable slope without >>using bresenham. > >Well, sorta-- you need it for calculation, but not necessarily for >plotting. (Anything smaller than the discernable resolution of the tube >could be left out...) > >>> Actually, I bet the dot size of the (focused) beam on a 19" raster = tube is >>> probably larger than the lower bit or two of resolution from a 12bit = DAC. >>> (Not to mention the shadow-mask.) >> >>Good point. But some may want to run on a B/W monitor and then you need >>all the resolution you can get. That wouldn't be me though. If you watch the slow floating of a ship on Space War you can see the = ship *jump* from one position to the next as it moves across the screen. It's= very subtle but noticeable. The Cinematronics uses a 1024 x 768 (or = thereabouts) grid for the starting points of it's vectors -- or about the resolution = of 10bit DACs. Since it's noticeable on a 19" screen it would sure be nice to = have higher resolutions available for the possibilities of larger screens. The jumps are very small using the 10bit resolution, 12bits would be 1/4 = of that jump and would be very hard to discern. I think it would also be smaller= than the thickness of the trace -- the jumps on Space War seem to be about the= same size as the trace. The disadvantage of 12bits is that your clock rate = must be 4 times faster than the asteroids DVG to maintain the same slew rate -- = probably not a problem. I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all = that thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick = with parallel loaded DACs. >>It just hit me! The 2nd order system (using ddx & ddy) would allow >>another feature: Variable intensity along a line. Rather than using >>them to draw a curve, you could use them to simply alter the speed >>of a straight line draw. It'd be cool to have vectors that fade to >>black (as the beam speeds up). This might not work. I was comparing the speed of the vector generators = with the slew rates of the monitors, and as it is they run the monitors pretty= close to their maximum speed. Unfortunately you wouldn't be able to fade a = trace by drawing faster simply because you can't draw any faster. If the ability = to draw faster was available I'm sure Atari (or whoever) would have already taken advantage of it. I imagine the speed of the monitors was used to set the= speed of the DVG and AVG, and not the other way around. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 11:06:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:06:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:06:31 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for one of the later games this issue probably came up. I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the last third of the vector. I think varying intensity within any given vector would also support first person games with "fading perspective with distance" nicely. All those lines that go off into the distance would be easy to fade as you get further off in the distance (but of course you wouldn't be able to fade completely to black unfortunately). Am I getting too much into game design when the monitor hasn't even been finished?! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: zonn@zonn.com[SMTP:zonn@zonn.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 10:47 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: zonn@zonn.com >Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... > >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:00:38 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: > >>>> Moving "fractional" portions of pixels/dots/whatever is handy for >>>> rate-control and makes really fluid movement easy from the software side. >>>> Just gives you some easy dynamic range to play with. No real reason to >>>> "need" it though. >>> >>>Well ya, you need fractional pixels/dots to get variable slope without >>>using bresenham. >> >>Well, sorta-- you need it for calculation, but not necessarily for >>plotting. (Anything smaller than the discernable resolution of the tube >>could be left out...) >> >>>> Actually, I bet the dot size of the (focused) beam on a 19" raster tube >>>>is >>>> probably larger than the lower bit or two of resolution from a 12bit DAC. >>>> (Not to mention the shadow-mask.) >>> >>>Good point. But some may want to run on a B/W monitor and then you need >>>all the resolution you can get. That wouldn't be me though. > >If you watch the slow floating of a ship on Space War you can see the ship >*jump* from one position to the next as it moves across the screen. It's >very >subtle but noticeable. The Cinematronics uses a 1024 x 768 (or thereabouts) >grid for the starting points of it's vectors -- or about the resolution of >10bit >DACs. Since it's noticeable on a 19" screen it would sure be nice to have >higher resolutions available for the possibilities of larger screens. > >The jumps are very small using the 10bit resolution, 12bits would be 1/4 of >that >jump and would be very hard to discern. I think it would also be smaller >than >the thickness of the trace -- the jumps on Space War seem to be about the >same >size as the trace. The disadvantage of 12bits is that your clock rate must >be 4 >times faster than the asteroids DVG to maintain the same slew rate -- >probably >not a problem. I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that >thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick with >parallel loaded DACs. > > > >>>It just hit me! The 2nd order system (using ddx & ddy) would allow >>>another feature: Variable intensity along a line. Rather than using >>>them to draw a curve, you could use them to simply alter the speed >>>of a straight line draw. It'd be cool to have vectors that fade to >>>black (as the beam speeds up). > >This might not work. I was comparing the speed of the vector generators with >the slew rates of the monitors, and as it is they run the monitors pretty >close >to their maximum speed. Unfortunately you wouldn't be able to fade a trace >by >drawing faster simply because you can't draw any faster. If the ability to >draw >faster was available I'm sure Atari (or whoever) would have already taken >advantage of it. I imagine the speed of the monitors was used to set the >speed >of the DVG and AVG, and not the other way around. > >-Zonn > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 11:20:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:19:40 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:19:36 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: RE: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I think varying intensity within any given vector would also support first person games with "fading perspective with distance" nicely." FWIW, this is called "Depth Cueing" Evans and Sutherland Picture Systems were the only vector display I ever used that had it, I assume the later Vector Generals and Megatech's could do it as well. As long as you're at it, 8 bits of D/A on R,G,B will give you all the brightness you could use.. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 11:40:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:40:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:41:39 GMT Message-ID: <3499293c.587175120@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:06:31 -0800, "Ozdemir, Steve" wrote: >G'day folks, > >Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, >then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no >animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for >one of the later games this issue probably came up. That's a good point. The jumps on larger screens would be, well, larger. >I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given >vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed >constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't >it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for >a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly >for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the >middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the >last third of the vector. > >I think varying intensity within any given vector would also support >first person games with "fading perspective with distance" nicely. All >those lines that go off into the distance would be easy to fade as you >get further off in the distance (but of course you wouldn't be able to >fade completely to black unfortunately). Am I getting too much into >game design when the monitor hasn't even been finished?! The best way at this point to fade a vector using a normal DVG or AVG = would be to draw it with smaller vectors, each set to decreasing intensities. One could always setup a mode where the intensity of the vector was based= on the value in the Line Length Counter in the vector generator. That would = give you a smooth fade. In either case there is nothing from stopping you from fading to black. -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 13:57:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712172159.QAA20989@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:59:37 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ozdemir, Steve" at Dec 17, 97 11:06:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > G'day folks, > > Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, > then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no > animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for > one of the later games this issue probably came up. > > I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given > vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed > constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't > it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for > a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly > for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the > middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the > last third of the vector. I don't think it'd be possible to have a single line get brighter in the middle and then dimmer using a 2nd order system (a 3rd order would work). but you could draw it in 2 parts, one brightening and one dimming. The nice thing is that you can derive a few equations to do different things and then just plug numbers in. I haven't derived it yet, but there are equations that take X1,Y1,X2,Y2,X3,Y3 and give the parameters to make a curve go from X1,Y1 to X3,Y3 while hitting X2,Y2 on the way. You can also derive stuff to work with the velocity (inverse of intensity) instead of using 3 points. I'm not sure if there are other significant options right now, but I know those 2 are easy - I'll do the general equations IF there is ever hardware to use it. X(t) = X0 + (dX)t + (ddx)(t)(t-1)/2 Y(t) = Y0 + (dY)t + (ddy)(t)(t-1)/2 or some such, where t is the "pixel" number starting at zero. This is the starting point for deriving something useful. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 13:57:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:57:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:57:43 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, Hmmm....well, I would imagine that if you put the fading under hardware control via the speed of the electron beam then you'd want to be able to both linear fading and something like "exponential" fading (where as your line is drawn your intensity drops exponentially). These two features would be sufficient for most purposes. I was under the impression that the speed of the electron beam was deciding the intensity of a vector (or part of a vector as the case may be). So because there is a maximum speed to the beam, there's also a minimum intensity that all vectors would have? Obviously if the Z was zeroed then you'd have black, but if we are using the speed of the beam to control intensity then Z isn't as relevant. I did follow how Zonn described fading with alot of little vectors of different intensity, but now you are increasing your vector counts. I'm sure the cost of stopping drawing the current vector and starting to draw the next vector is high enough that variable intensity within a vector is a significant savings (and less of a headache for the software guy...until you tell him he has to specify how to fade vectors). Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: zonn@zonn.com[SMTP:zonn@zonn.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:41 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: zonn@zonn.com >Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... > >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:06:31 -0800, "Ozdemir, Steve" wrote: > >>G'day folks, >> >>Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, >>then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no >>animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for >>one of the later games this issue probably came up. > >That's a good point. The jumps on larger screens would be, well, larger. > >>I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given >>vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed >>constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't >>it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for >>a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly >>for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the >>middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the >>last third of the vector. >> >>I think varying intensity within any given vector would also support >>first person games with "fading perspective with distance" nicely. All >>those lines that go off into the distance would be easy to fade as you >>get further off in the distance (but of course you wouldn't be able to >>fade completely to black unfortunately). Am I getting too much into >>game design when the monitor hasn't even been finished?! > >The best way at this point to fade a vector using a normal DVG or AVG would >be >to draw it with smaller vectors, each set to decreasing intensities. > >One could always setup a mode where the intensity of the vector was based on >the >value in the Line Length Counter in the vector generator. That would give >you a >smooth fade. > >In either case there is nothing from stopping you from fading to black. > >-Zonn > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: > |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically > / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures > / / //\\ // (__) > / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com > -------| // \\/ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:07:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:07:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712172210.RAA16300@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:10:29 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <34981a2f.583322348@tommy.doctord.com> from "Zonn" at Dec 17, 97 06:47:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > not a problem. I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that > thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick with > parallel loaded DACs. Funny, if we used serial DACs we might as well go ahead with Al's idea to do serial addition. Then all we'd have is some registers shifting around through 2 or 4 1-bit adders and out to the DAC. WOW! Now 24 shifts at 3-4 times the asteroids clock speed is probably too fast for anything cheap. Can the PLD run at ~100MHz? I just had an idea I gotta think about... -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:18:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:18:30 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:18:27 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: serial DACs Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that > thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick with > parallel loaded DACs." Joe will probably pop in here, being from Crystal and all.. We use Crystal's 16 bit serially interfaced parts for the audio I/O on Macs, and those are running up to 48Khz/channel. Guess I'll have to double-check on the maximum clock speed of the Maxim multi-channel DAC i'm designing into the programmable power supplies on the board i'm doing :-) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:27:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:27:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:27:14 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: serial DACs Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Just did a quick look, and the Maxim MAX5154 dual 12 bit part can be clocked to 10 Mhz. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:31:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:30:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:30:17 -0600 (CST) From: jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: serial DACs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > > "I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that > > thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick with > > parallel loaded DACs." > > Joe will probably pop in here, being from Crystal and all.. > > We use Crystal's 16 bit serially interfaced parts for the audio I/O on > Macs, and those are running up to 48Khz/channel. Guess I'll have to > double-check on the maximum clock speed of the Maxim multi-channel > DAC i'm designing into the programmable power supplies on the board > i'm doing :-) > I WAS going to chime in that basically every DAC we make uses a serial input port. The audio stuff used a 48 kHz "LRCK" (Left/Right Clock) which is basically a sample clock. SCLK (Serial Port Clock) frequencies are usually programmable to be 32, 48, 64, or 128 times that clock frequency and the ports can operate in master mode or slave mode. If anyone cares, I was actually the designer for the latest generation of those serial ports. We just released a 96kHz part, so that Serial port uses a 96kHz LRCK. SCLK frequencies are exactly the same, though... Whoops the system is about to go down her so I'd bett wrap this upe....let me know if any of these parts may be useful, becuase I could probably get samples no problem. Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:36:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:36:27 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:36:27 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day folks, No brightening, constant, darkening within a single vector as my below example described. That's fine. I just wanted to check if you were suggesting features that would support my difficult example. As you (and Zonn) suggested splitting the vector into two parts where one vector was only brightening and the other vector was only darkening would be OK. I was thinking more of what Al was describing where vectors fade into the distance in first player games. Could we have curved lines like in Quantum? As I remember the "curved lines" were actually lots of short straight lines that look like one big curved line. This is a tall order, but if we are in the middle of brainstorming up suggestions I'll stick my neck out! By the way, while I have people focussed on Quantum, can anyone tell me why they didn't do this game with a raster monitor? Come on. Curved lines and solid filled objects. What's the point of using vectors? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - Of course, I'm the guy who's convinced that Qix should be redone with vectors. >---------- >From: Paul Kahler[SMTP:phkahler@Oakland.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 1:59 PM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: Paul Kahler >Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... > >> G'day folks, >> >> Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, >> then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no >> animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for >> one of the later games this issue probably came up. >> >> I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given >> vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed >> constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't >> it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for >> a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly >> for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the >> middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the >> last third of the vector. > > I don't think it'd be possible to have a single line get brighter in the >middle and then dimmer using a 2nd order system (a 3rd order would work). >but you could draw it in 2 parts, one brightening and one dimming. The nice >thing is that you can derive a few equations to do different things and then >just plug numbers in. I haven't derived it yet, but there are equations that >take X1,Y1,X2,Y2,X3,Y3 and give the parameters to make a curve go from X1,Y1 >to X3,Y3 while hitting X2,Y2 on the way. You can also derive stuff to work >with the velocity (inverse of intensity) instead of using 3 points. I'm not >sure if there are other significant options right now, but I know those 2 >are easy - I'll do the general equations IF there is ever hardware to use it. > >X(t) = X0 + (dX)t + (ddx)(t)(t-1)/2 >Y(t) = Y0 + (dY)t + (ddy)(t)(t-1)/2 > >or some such, where t is the "pixel" number starting at zero. This is the >starting point for deriving something useful. >-- > ___ __ _ _ _ >| \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer >| _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? >|_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 14:44:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:44:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: serial DACs Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:46:23 GMT Message-ID: <349d554e.598458729@tommy.doctord.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: zonn@zonn.com (Zonn) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:18:27 -0800 (PST), aek (Al Kossow) wrote: > >"I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that >> thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to = stick with >> parallel loaded DACs." > >Joe will probably pop in here, being from Crystal and all.. > >We use Crystal's 16 bit serially interfaced parts for the audio I/O on >Macs, and those are running up to 48Khz/channel. Guess I'll have to >double-check on the maximum clock speed of the Maxim multi-channel >DAC i'm designing into the programmable power supplies on the board >i'm doing :-) =46or 12 bit resolution were going to need a 12 bit DAC that can be fully= updated at about 6mhz. So assuming no register addressing overhead, that many of= the DACs require, the serial data must be clocked at 72mhz. Any internal = addressing needed to operate the DAC will increase this value. Good luck! -Zonn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ------ ___ Member of A.A.C.S.: |---- | ( ) Association for Artistically / / ( () ) Challenged Signatures / / //\\ // (__) / ---/ // \\ //\\ // zonn @ zonn . com -------| // \\/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 15:01:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:01:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:01:20 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: DAC rates Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) Zonn "said" "=46or 12 bit resolution were going to need a 12 bit DAC that can be fully= updated at about 6mhz. So assuming no register addressing overhead, that many of= the DACs require, the serial data must be clocked at 72mhz. Any internal = addressing needed to operate the DAC will increase this value. Good luck! " I'm having a little trouble parsing this.. Guess I should have asked for more detail on WHAT was being designed :-) >From the message exchange, I'm assuming 12 bits of resolution in X and Y. At what rate can these X and Y values change? I was assuming the rate of change was fairly slow, but thinking about it, it is going to be the rate at which the beam will move to the next x,y position on the screen, which can be quite fast.. I'm guessing this is the "6Mhz" in Zonn's message. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 15:38:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:38:07 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:37:13 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: serial DACs In-Reply-To: <349d554e.598458729@tommy.doctord.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Zonn wrote: > For 12 bit resolution were going to need a 12 bit DAC that can be fully updated > at about 6mhz. So assuming no register addressing overhead, that many of the > DACs require, the serial data must be clocked at 72mhz. Any internal addressing > needed to operate the DAC will increase this value. Good luck! > Yup, 128 * 48 kHz is only 6.14 MHz, so that rules out all lof Crystal's Audio parts. Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 15:43:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:42:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:42:13 -0600 (CST) From: jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... In-Reply-To: <199712172210.RAA16300@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Paul Kahler wrote: > Funny, if we used serial DACs we might as well go ahead with Al's idea to > do serial addition. Then all we'd have is some registers shifting around > through 2 or 4 1-bit adders and out to the DAC. WOW! Now 24 shifts at > 3-4 times the asteroids clock speed is probably too fast for anything cheap. > Can the PLD run at ~100MHz? > I know some Altera stuff can. Back when I took the standard "Build a Microprocessor from TTL and PLDs" course, There were some Altera parts which were as low as 5 ns. Actually I've been thinking about something..... Clay, what parts were you targeting to when you posted about your original adder? A Xilinx CLB can implement any function of 5 variables, so a 24 bit ripple-carry adder would take < 48 CLBs, which seems pretty reasonable to me. It might suck up a lot of routing resources, though... Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 17 15:45:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:45:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:45:07 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... In-Reply-To: <199712172210.RAA16300@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Forget that last message (about the Xilinx parts, etc) I just went back and re-read the original message and saw that it was a 32 CLB PLD....Duh.. Time to go home..... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Joseph J. Welser jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Design Engineer -- Crystal Semiconductor Corporation Ph.D. Student in E.E. -- University of Texas at Austin Work: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com http://www.crystal.com P.O. Box 17847; Austin, TX 78760 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 06:19:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:19:08 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712181421.JAA31133@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:21:56 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ozdemir, Steve" at Dec 17, 97 02:36:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler Steve, My idea about changing line intensity was not a designed feature, rather it is a *bonus* for building hardware that can generate curves. So yes, we could do curves better than Quantum. The circuit for doing curves is a simple extension of a fixed-point DVG. However, since Clay is trying to fit all this into 128 CLBs it looks like the extra registers aren't going to fit (6 24-bit numbers is over 128 bits). However, I'm still toying with an idea that may help. ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. > G'day folks, > > No brightening, constant, darkening within a single vector as my below > example described. That's fine. I just wanted to check if you were > suggesting features that would support my difficult example. As you > (and Zonn) suggested splitting the vector into two parts where one > vector was only brightening and the other vector was only darkening > would be OK. I was thinking more of what Al was describing where > vectors fade into the distance in first player games. > > Could we have curved lines like in Quantum? As I remember the "curved > lines" were actually lots of short straight lines that look like one big > curved line. This is a tall order, but if we are in the middle of > brainstorming up suggestions I'll stick my neck out! > > By the way, while I have people focussed on Quantum, can anyone tell me > why they didn't do this game with a raster monitor? Come on. Curved > lines and solid filled objects. What's the point of using vectors? > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > > ps - Of course, I'm the guy who's convinced that Qix should be redone > with vectors. > > >---------- > >From: Paul Kahler[SMTP:phkahler@Oakland.edu] > >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 1:59 PM > >To: vectorlist@spies.com > >Cc: Paul Kahler > >Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... > > > >> G'day folks, > >> > >> Well, if the ships on Space Wars aren't animated well on a 19" screen, > >> then that explains why only Barrier had a 25" screen. There's no > >> animation in Barrier, and anytime someone brought up a 25" screen for > >> one of the later games this issue probably came up. > >> > >> I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given > >> vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed > >> constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't > >> it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for > >> a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly > >> for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the > >> middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the > >> last third of the vector. > > > > I don't think it'd be possible to have a single line get brighter in the > >middle and then dimmer using a 2nd order system (a 3rd order would work). > >but you could draw it in 2 parts, one brightening and one dimming. The nice > >thing is that you can derive a few equations to do different things and then > >just plug numbers in. I haven't derived it yet, but there are equations that > >take X1,Y1,X2,Y2,X3,Y3 and give the parameters to make a curve go from X1,Y1 > >to X3,Y3 while hitting X2,Y2 on the way. You can also derive stuff to work > >with the velocity (inverse of intensity) instead of using 3 points. I'm not > >sure if there are other significant options right now, but I know those 2 > >are easy - I'll do the general equations IF there is ever hardware to use it. > > > >X(t) = X0 + (dX)t + (ddx)(t)(t-1)/2 > >Y(t) = Y0 + (dY)t + (ddy)(t)(t-1)/2 > > > >or some such, where t is the "pixel" number starting at zero. This is the > >starting point for deriving something useful. > >-- > > ___ __ _ _ _ > >| \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer > >| _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? > >|_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. > > > -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 09:39:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:39:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:40:43 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: PC web links Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >just stumbled upon this.. > >http://www.lvr.com/pcbs.htm > >looking for someone who makes a PCI IEEE 1284 parallel >port card (anyone know of one?, guess I'll be building >one if not..) Try Dolphin Peripherals. (www.dolphinfast.com) You might try Ward at MegaWolf (www.megawolf.com) for a Mac-PCI thing... You could also get one of the PLX PCI bridge chip evaluation boards and plug a regular ISA parallel port card into it. (We had our regular ISA modem running on PCI with the PLX chip in about a day and a half. PLX is just too expensive for production for us...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 09:43:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:43:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:43:44 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: PC web links Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) thanks for the pointer, I see Dolphin is sold at Frys, making it easy to buy (other than being a hateful place to visit..) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 09:46:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:46:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:47:07 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill Zonn wrote: >If you watch the slow floating of a ship on Space War you can see the ship >*jump* from one position to the next as it moves across the screen. It's very >subtle but noticeable. The Cinematronics uses a 1024 x 768 (or thereabouts) >grid for the starting points of it's vectors -- or about the resolution of >10bit >DACs. Since it's noticeable on a 19" screen it would sure be nice to have >higher resolutions available for the possibilities of larger screens. Interesting. I never noticed, but I never payed super-close attention either. I was just happy when I got it working! ;-) I believe it though-- the "jump" in the Sega G-80 rotation system is pretty obvious when you're spinning "big" objects... >The disadvantage of 12bits is that your clock rate must be 4 >times faster than the asteroids DVG to maintain the same slew rate -- probably >not a problem. I wasn't able to find any serial DACs (I didn't do all that >thorough of a search) that worked at this speed, you might have to stick with >parallel loaded DACs. Ehhh, 12MHz vs. 3MHz-- not a big deal. Looks like the device will probably go out to 40-60MHz withough any trouble... re: serial DACs... I was pretty much planning on parallel load DACs. If we went with serial DACs I start thinking an Analog Devices fixed-point DSP is the smarter way to do this. (I think that's what Atari used for the third-generation vector generator that didn't make it out the door...) Actually, one of our 56K modem chipsets would probably make a pretty respectable "engine"... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 10:08:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:08:24 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:09:47 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I still like Paul's idea of having intensity differ within any given >vector, even if we can't make vectors fade to black (due to speed >constraints of the monitor). If I may speculate for a moment, wouldn't >it be difficult to specify via software how you wanted the intensity for >a vector to change? Let's say I wanted the intensity to increase slowly >for the first third of a vector, stay at the highest level for the >middle of the vector and finally return to the original intensity in the >last third of the vector. You know... Some sort of little hardware "color gradient" would be pretty interesting. Probably be best just to have the PC do it and use some dual-port RAM as a pallette DAC. Could always tie something to the line length counter to sweep the color palette as the line is drawn. Pretty. ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 10:17:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:17:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:18:50 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >X(t) = X0 + (dX)t + (ddx)(t)(t-1)/2 >Y(t) = Y0 + (dY)t + (ddy)(t)(t-1)/2 Wait, wait... I'm getting a vision-- something coming back to me from college... It's very fuzzy... The first word is "Calculus"... Wait! There's more... It's... It's... The letter "D"! I wonder what it could mean... (Oh, yeah-- Paul gets to do any/all derivations and integrations. :-) -Clay (I was out sick yesterday, so I'm catching up on all my "important" e-mail now. ;-) Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 10:24:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:24:39 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:25:49 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >Funny, if we used serial DACs we might as well go ahead with Al's idea to >do serial addition. Then all we'd have is some registers shifting around >through 2 or 4 1-bit adders and out to the DAC. WOW! Now 24 shifts at >3-4 times the asteroids clock speed is probably too fast for anything cheap. >Can the PLD run at ~100MHz? Theoretically we've got up to 125MHz. In practice though you need to feed terms back through the arrary, so any particular design won't have 125MHz raw speed. The good news is that timing is very predictable in a CPLD (as opposed to an FPGA which can get ugly fast). I think 40-60MHz is probably pretty do-able. Just don't expect to get any TV reception near the card when it's operating. ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 10:43:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:43:36 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:44:51 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: DAC rates Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I'm having a little trouble parsing this.. > >Guess I should have asked for more detail on WHAT was being >designed :-) > >>From the message exchange, I'm assuming 12 bits of resolution in >X and Y. At what rate can these X and Y values change? I was >assuming the rate of change was fairly slow, but thinking about >it, it is going to be the rate at which the beam will move to >the next x,y position on the screen, which can be quite fast.. > >I'm guessing this is the "6Mhz" in Zonn's message. The maximum "update speed" of a DAC in something like Asteroids is 3MHz. (the speed of the vector clock) Actually, because of the binary rate multiplier it's: (63 * 3MHz)/64 = 2.953MHz... That just gives you "Asteroids" level vector performance. I was hoping for 2-4 times that for whatever design I try. So for dual, 12-bit, serial DACs to meet Asteroids level performance... 3MHz DAC rate minimum of twelve clocks per update two DACs for X/Y 3MHz * 12 * 2= ~72MHz Ugh. And like Zonn said, that's without any register-type steering overhead for the serial link. "Hello, parallel DACs." :-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 10:54:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:54:20 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:55:31 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill > Actually I've been thinking about something..... > > Clay, what parts were you targeting to when you posted about your >original adder? A Xilinx CLB can implement any function of 5 variables, >so a 24 bit ripple-carry adder would take < 48 CLBs, which seems pretty >reasonable to me. It might suck up a lot of routing resources, though... I was synthesizing to the Cypress CY7C37x family. They're Complex Programmable Logic Devices, not FPGA's like the Xilinx/Altera/Orca stuff. They look pretty comparable to the Lattice 20xx and 30xx series. Devices are available in 32, 64 and 128 "Macrocells". Each macrocell is about like a 22V10's macrocell, but with more product terms coming in. Your numbers look about right-- there just aren't as many macrocells available as in an FPGA. (For Cypress a 24 bit ripple adder would take about 168 product terms, 48 Macrocells, and 24 passes through the array (ouch). A full-carry lookahead would eat more product terms-- ~300, and a few more macrocells ~56, but take MUCH less time-- 6 passes through the array.) That's kinda why I'm trying to do this in VHDL-- so I can target either FPGA or CPLD parts depending on what's needed. Xilinx has been publishing numbers around $3 for their new slimmed-down 4000 series which would be pretty cool. To keep things affordable I need to stay with a 32 or 64 macrocell device in a CPLD for now. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 12:33:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:32:53 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:32:50 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: pld design tools Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I was just looking at the download area on Lattice's web site, and they appear to be giving away a version of Synario. This is for Win95/3.1 I haven't looked at any of this kind of stuff for a LONG time (I use an old Mac port of ABEL for the few times that I design PALs) Are these sorts of high level design tools available now from most other PLD vendors? I know Clay had said that he was thinking of using a Cypress PLD. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 15:12:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712182314.SAA10080@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:14:33 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 18, 97 10:55:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > Devices are available in 32, 64 and 128 "Macrocells". Each macrocell is > about like a 22V10's macrocell, but with more product terms coming in. > Your numbers look about right-- there just aren't as many macrocells > available as in an FPGA. (For Cypress a 24 bit ripple adder would take > about 168 product terms, 48 Macrocells, and 24 passes through the array > (ouch). A full-carry lookahead would eat more product terms-- ~300, and a > few more macrocells ~56, but take MUCH less time-- 6 passes through the > array.) Clay (and anyone else who might be interested) please read all this crap and see if I make sense :-) It's a bit long. Consider this: X = 24 bits = 3 bytes same for Y dX = 16 bits = 2 bytes same for dY write this as follows where x3 is most significant byte etc... X = x3x2x1 Y = y3y2y1 dX = dx2dx1 dY = dy2dy1 Using an 8-bit adder the plotting cycle becomes: Load X,Y to the DACs add x1, dx1 addc x2, dx2 addc x3, sdx2 - add sign bit of dx2 to x3 along with the carry add y1, dy1 addc y2, dy2 addc y3, sdy2 - you know. add count, -1 repeat until count = 0 The idea here is to use an 8-bit adder & make up for it with the clock speed. if there's room you can do curves by throwing in: add dy1, ddy addc dy2, sddy - use only 8bit for ddy & sign extend to 16 (like dy) add dx1, ddx addc dx2, sddx - same for ddx Lastly, when I was thinking about all values being 24-bit I thought of making a ring of registers (like 24 parallel circular shift regs) where each value would load into the next register each cycle. 2 of these would feed into an adder like so: __________________________________________________ | | |__|---| |--| |--| |--| |--| |--| |--| ------- |mux|->|r1|->|r2|->|r3|->|r4|->|r5|-+-->|r6|--> |adder| ----|---| |--| |--| |--| |--| |--| | |--| ------- | ^ |______________| The multiplexor is simply for loading the registers from an outside source. Once loaded, operation would simply follow the circle going all the way around for each plotting cycle. The registers would be loaded as follows: r1-ddy r2-dy r3-Y r4-ddx r5-dx r6-X *** important *** You'd need a set of gates between r5 and the adder to Zero it out when r5=Y & r6=ddx also when r5=X & r6=ddy. (you don't want to add these pairs, just pass r6 through by adding zero) This strategy could also work 1 byte at a time if there was a carry bit preserved (you just wire the adder to r15 and r18) which allows very simple loading 1 byte at a time. However it seems to break down when the variables have different number of bits(bytes) :-( The other problem is that you need to perform one full cycle per dot plotted and the clock speed starts to go up with all those registers needing to go around. Comments on this are most welcome. Unless you think I need to be locked up :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 15:18:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:17:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3499AF08.55EA@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:17:28 -0600 From: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Gravitar schematic References: <971022171046_241519413@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net Can someone please tell me if a Gravitar schematic and/or cabinet wiring diagram is on someone's web site. If so, what is the address? Thanks much in advance. Bob Wood From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 15:28:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:27:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:27:14 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Sega Multigame and Vector Generator Card... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Comments on this are most welcome. Unless you think I need to be locked up :-)" ..makes sense to me, it looks like a reasonable compromise between 1 and and full add. there is another hack that you can do if you run out of internal state which I did on a programmable state machine for a disc controller I designed; use an 8 bit wide FIFO as a recirculating storage register. if you always use the same number of items in the same order, you can push them into the fifo, feed the output back to the input, and they 'sit and spin' :-) so.. you push the operands into the fifo in the order you use them, and they flow through the state machine a byte at a time. use a 12 bit path to the DACs, and double buffer it (or use double-buffered DACs) and you're done. (just a simple matter of a little programming :-) From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 16:23:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:22:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:24:00 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: pld design tools Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill >I was just looking at the download area on Lattice's web >site, and they appear to be giving away a version of >Synario. The Lattice Synario package supports some Lattice CPLD's and all vendor's PLD's (up to 22V10's and GAL6000's). It used to be $99 with books, sample parts, and ISP download cable. Very nice-- supports ABEL HDL, schematic entry, has a so-so JEDEC simulator. Works. I used it for the PAL on the Sega Multigame. For $500 you get the same thing, but instead of being Synario based it's Viewlogic Workbench based and comes with all their tools and VHDL stuff. If your company is big enough and you ask nicely enough they'll give you one of these too. (Worked for me-- it comes with two of those !@#$!@ hardware keys that plug into the PC parallel port too... Grrrr...) >Are these sorts of high level design tools available now > from most other PLD vendors? I know Clay had said that >he was thinking of using a Cypress PLD. Cypress sells their Warp 2 VHDL system for $99. Is has a nice JEDEC simulator (better than the Synario one, IMHO.) One of their application engineers wrote a good VHDL book which comes with the package. It's a college-type text that teaches VHDL. That's what I'm using to learn since I only had one class with any HDL stuff in it in school. Xilinx has always had expensive tools which they've been semi-reluctant to give-away. Their representatives will usually give you an "eval" package that's good for something like 256 synthesis runs. Since each time you try to compile takes a run, so you can burn through it your first project just learning the system. Usually their software is four-figure prices, but they might be listening to customer demand more now. Last I talked to the factory guys they said there was a $99 package with VHDL that was going to come out Q1 of next year. They said it was going to go down to "free" about six months later. Xilinx stuff is called "XACT"-- I've never liked it much myself... AMD has their own MACH XL stuff, which I've never used. It's hardware key protected and I never saw much reason to fir it up on my system. Those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Oh, the Lattice VHDL stuff is kinda-odd. For *some* reason the installation size depends on the cluster size of your hard-drive. I guess it must use a bazillion little 1K files or something. (Eating up 32K clusters on most IDE drives.) The software "requires" 100M "depending on cluster size". My installation will require 550M free! Ack! It's bigger than my Micro$oft apps... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 16:35:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:35:20 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:34:34 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: pld design tools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Clay Cowgill wrote: > AMD has their own MACH XL stuff, which I've never used. It's hardware key > protected and I never saw much reason to fir it up on my system. There is a freeware version of MACH XL. I've never used it, myself. > > Those are the ones I know off the top of my head. > Altera's package is called MAX-PLUS, and is VERY nice. It has schematic capture, "AHDL" input, and a really nice interface. I don't think it's cheap, though, and I know it has those hardware keys, too... Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Dec 18 17:56:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:55:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <3499D3F9.33A1@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:55:05 -0600 From: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Gravitar schematic? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: RWood54741@worldnet.att.net Can anyone please tell me if the PCB schematic and/or cabinet wiring diagram is on a web site? If so which web site is it? Thanks much in advance, Bob Wood From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Dec 19 14:25:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:26:03 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: plastics... Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Clay Cowgill This is more of a "general purpose/non-vector" message in case anyone's interested... A lot of older games seem to use plastic parts in the controllers that wear against other plastic and leave nice little piles of plastic-dust as the controller slowly destroys itself... Our manufacturing-test guy was just showing off some of our new production modem test machines and he pointed out what the "test plugs" are made of. It's a plastic called "Delrin". Apparently it's a self-lubricating plastic that's extremely wear-resistant and tough (9000psi shear strength). It's cool looking too. Shiny and black. :-) I see that they make sliding-door rollers out of it. Anyway, I remembered that RickS had some replacement trakball shafts milled a while back which got me thinking... I don't know off the top of my head which parts are the most wear-prone, but this Delrin stuff would be pretty cool to make replacement joystick/whirly-gig parts out of-- if anyone has AutoCAD 14 and free/cheap access to a good CAM machine. ;-) (Hmmmm, that I,Robot hall-effect stick would be a good starting point... ;-) FYI... -Clay P.S. I'll be out on vacation for most of the rest of the year, so e-mail contact might be pretty spotty. Hope everyone has a happy holiday! Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Dec 19 21:19:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:18:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: John Robertson To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:02:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <349b5f630.6f2d@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 725 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" I know its typically not "vector" related, but.. I just finished up a deal with John Robertson (jrr@flippers.com). I know a while ago there were some hard feelings on the list. Well, he handled our deal just fine. He could probably have made a lot more money than what I offered but he went with it anyway. Then he boxed the equipment up and shipped it (Canada -> US). (for those that are curious I bought his Atari PAT 9000 which is both bulky AND heavy..) Anyway I just wanted to publicly thank John. Kurt This signature file is temporary until the previous file (currently on free floating metal oxide mixed with disk head fragments) is found on some non-readable backup tape. Kurt Mahan kmahan@novell.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Dec 21 09:30:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:29:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:29:49 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Dolphin PCI parallel card Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) I ran over to Frys yesterday and bought one of the Dolphin cards (the line at the checkout counter must have been over 300 people long, this is the WRONG time of the year to go into a store...) The good news it was cheaper than I thought it would be ($80.. I figured any PCI card was going to be >$150) the bad news is they used the ST78C34 instead of the ST78C36 which supports hardware handshaking. Still, it's cheaper than having a card made.. This was the first PCI card i've ever seen that was on a two layer PCB (oops, I mean double-sided, it isn't multi-layer) and has four active components on it (78C34, LS00, 83LC46 and PLX9050). I guess the margins are better for this sort of card than the veggie ISA peripherals (like Clay said, the PLX part is fairly expensive, around $25 in volume) It's fairly easy to hack a simple I/O interface onto the space where the 2nd parallel interface would be, since the parts are surface-mount, you can just tack wires onto the I/O signals on the pads (assuming you only need 3 adr lines) I would guess that someone is going to do an I/O kludge card with one of these bus interface parts, but you can't get it right now except for the PLX evaluation kit (here's a 'market oportunity' Clay :-) for $300 which has the wrong connectors and way too much stuff on it... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 08:58:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:57:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199712221700.MAA10845@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: plastics... To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:00:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Dec 19, 97 02:26:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Paul Kahler > (Hmmmm, that I,Robot hall-effect stick would be a good starting point... ;-) Another hot item is the I, Robot panel itself. It wasn't thick enough, so it tends to bend and crack. Mine has some bondo-type stuff where your left hand sits. Guess it broke & got "fixed". Granted, this part doesn't need any lubrication, but it is plastic and needs a replacement :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 09:07:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:07:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:07:02 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Exorcisor on a chip Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Hey all, This weekend, I played around with fitting the Cine. Exorcisor onto a single PLD, using the [free] tools that I had at my disposal (AMD's PALASM.) Unfortunately, the smallest PLD I could get it to fit into was a MACH130. What's bad about this is that I can't program MACH130s without an adaptor to my Programmer (A MACH130 is in a PLCC package) which costs ~$150. I partitioned and I think I can get the same design into 3 22V10s, but I'm not sure that there's any advantage to doing it that way, rather than just building it out of the dozen or so TTL chips. You still need an external inverter to invert the clock, so that would be a chip count of 4 instead of ~12, and a pin count of ~80, instead of ~176. I guess it's still a savings, but I'm just bummed that this hasn't turned out as nicely as I planned. I'm looking for some feedback from people about the following stuff: 1) Does anybody have a programmer with the necessary adaptors to program AMD MACH series parts? Better yet, does anybody have this adaptor for a Modular Circuit Technology MOD-EMUPA programmer, that I might be able to borrow? 2) Is there any interest in getting the Exorcisor on ~3 22V10s? I'd appreciate any feedback... Thanks, Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Joseph J. Welser jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Design Engineer -- Crystal Semiconductor Corporation Ph.D. Student in E.E. -- University of Texas at Austin Work: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com http://www.crystal.com P.O. Box 17847; Austin, TX 78760 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 09:41:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:40:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9712221739.AA22554@savage.raleigh.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Exorcisor on a chip To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:39:27 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu" at Dec 22, 97 11:07:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 631 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: > 2) Is there any interest in getting the Exorcisor > on ~3 22V10s? I'd be interested in this. How bad would the interconnect be? How about laying-out a PCB? Soldering a few chips on a PCB wouldn't be too bad IMHO... At least the 22v10's are easy to come by and many have programmers capable of programming them. John +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw@vnet.ibm.com I will not torment the emotionally frail... :-) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 10:38:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:37:44 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@spies.com'" Subject: RE: Exorcisor on a chip Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:37:47 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Ozdemir, Steve" G'day John, I'm torn. I think it would be better to use a more common chip like the 22V10, that can be programmed by many programmers. But if the interconnects are too complicated (and that's what Joe's email seemed to indicate) then no one's going to do it without the PCB. Also, this may be a silly question, but would the PCB for the 22V10's be much smaller than the original PCBs in the Cinematronics Exercisor? If the 22V10's are about the same cost as all the 15 74XXX chips in the Cinematronics Exercisor, then does it make sense to use this 22V10 approach. All it seems to do is save some soldering of pins (and maybe a little cost of making PCB since it would be smaller)? Assuming a PCB would have to be made for the 22V10 approach, I'd suggest just duplicating original PCB in the Cinematronics Exercisor. That is unless you can produce a true "Exercisor on a chip" solution. Wouldn't it be cool to have a single chip solution that you literally solder the connector's wires to the chip's pins! The ultimate solution...no PCB at all! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - Actually, in practice, I'd solder the connector's wires to the pins of a socket and then plug the single chip into the socket. No reason to expose the chip's pins to my lousy soldering abilities! >---------- >From: linvjw@VNET.IBM.COM[SMTP:linvjw@VNET.IBM.COM] >Sent: Monday, December 22, 1997 9:39 AM >To: vectorlist@spies.com >Cc: linvjw@VNET.IBM.COM >Subject: Re: Exorcisor on a chip > >> 2) Is there any interest in getting the Exorcisor >> on ~3 22V10s? > >I'd be interested in this. How bad would the interconnect be? How >about laying-out a PCB? Soldering a few chips on a PCB wouldn't be too >bad IMHO... > >At least the 22v10's are easy to come by and many have programmers >capable of programming them. > >John > >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | >| linvjw@vnet.ibm.com I will not torment the emotionally frail... :-) | >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 10:41:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:41:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:40:20 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Exorcisor Schematic Error Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: While I'm at it....There is an error in the Exorcisor schematic....Dave probably didn't catch it yet, because he built his out of the exact parts.... On the LS163A counters, the ENT and ENP connections are reversed. Pin 7 should be ENP and Pin 10 should be ENT. All the hook-up is correct on the schematic, so if you hook those wires up to those pins, on those actual chips, everything will work correctly, but with the functionality labeled as it is, my functional models (which don't care about pinouts) didn't work. Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 14:46:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:45:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971222184548.243f8f2c@pop.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:45:48 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: Exorcisor Schematic Error In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: fishd At 12:40 PM 12/22/97 -0600, Joe W. wrote: > > While I'm at it....There is an error in the Exorcisor >schematic....Dave probably didn't catch it yet, because he built >his out of the exact parts.... > > On the LS163A counters, the ENT and ENP connections are >reversed. Pin 7 should be ENP and Pin 10 should be ENT. > > All the hook-up is correct on the schematic, so if you >hook those wires up to those pins, on those actual chips, >everything will work correctly, but with the functionality labeled >as it is, my functional models (which don't care about pinouts) >didn't work. > The ENT / ENP error was a carry over. Whoever generated that library at work screwed up, I never noticed it. Like Joe said it makes no difference when wiring up to pins of real parts. Another thing you will definitely want to look into is the CLOCK input. The original design is marginal at best and has been giving me no end of trouble. My Exorcisor works fine on some boards and not at all on another. Removing the capacitors on the CLK input is a must and getting rid of the 100 Ohm current limit resistor also should be done. A 2K pull-up resistor at the input helped get the levels to where they should be but I'm still going to have to improve the ground connections. I'm getting too much ringing on the CLK input which is probably what's causing the marginal condition. I just wish that I had more time to play with it to get it right. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 15:23:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:23:04 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:22:24 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Exorcisor Schematic Error In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971222184548.243f8f2c@pop.tiac.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, fishd wrote: > The ENT / ENP error was a carry over. Whoever generated that library > at work screwed up, I never noticed it. Like Joe said it makes no > difference when wiring up to pins of real parts. Another thing > you will definitely want to look into is the CLOCK input. The > original design is marginal at best and has been giving me no end > of trouble. My Exorcisor works fine on some boards and not at all > on another. Removing the capacitors on the CLK input is a must and > getting rid of the 100 Ohm current limit resistor also should be > done. A 2K pull-up resistor at the input helped get the levels > to where they should be but I'm still going to have to improve > the ground connections. I'm getting too much ringing on the CLK > input which is probably what's causing the marginal condition. > I just wish that I had more time to play with it to get it right. Now that you mention the ringing problem, I'm sure that's why there was that obscene amount of capacitance and the resistor there -- to terminate the transmission line on the CLK line. Inductance on the GND and VCC lines probably isn't helping (Because VCC is bouncing down and GND is bouncing up.) What are you using to connect the exorcisor to the board? I'll come up with a good way to terminate all those connections, since I'll have the same problem you are.... Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Dec 22 23:52:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:52:01 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971222235046.0091c4c0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jdegroof@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:50:52 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: John DeGroof Subject: Tempest FROZEN, passes self test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John DeGroof This message was posted in RGVAC, and I haven't had a SINGLE reply yet! (over those yahoos heads I guess). I was told all the smart people left and are on this list, so here goes folks. I'm fixing another Tempest boardset (4th and final). I have several boardsets available, so I know everything but the main board is good. This boardset passes the self test (no bad RAM beeps, no error codes), but when switched to normal play mode, it freezes up (no X or Y board output (flatline on scope), solid player select LEDs). I've swapped CPU's with a known good one, and swapped ROMs with a known good set. I've tried various dipswitch settings (started with factory, then to free play, etc.), so I know it's not the dipswitches themselves or their settings. I've also swapped the aux board with a known good one. (Other *obvious* info: checked & verified voltages, clocks, dipswitches. Other good boardsets work in the same cab). I'm thinking the freeze mode is stuck active, but know nothing about it. Any ideas, suggestions, or advice? Have scope, will fix. Thanks in advance! -- John G. DeGroof jdegroof@ix.netcom.com http://pw1.netcom.com/~jdegroof/john.html From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 23 07:29:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:29:03 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: Tempest FROZEN, passes self test To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:14:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971222235046.0091c4c0@popd.ix.netcom.com> from "John DeGroof" at Dec 22, 97 11:50:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <349fe3650.1c6a@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1615 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" > This boardset passes the self test (no bad RAM beeps, no error codes), but > when switched to normal play mode, it freezes up (no X or Y board output > (flatline on scope), solid player select LEDs). I've swapped CPU's with a > known good one, and swapped ROMs with a known good set. I've tried various > dipswitch settings (started with factory, then to free play, etc.), so I > know it's not the dipswitches themselves or their settings. I've also > swapped the aux board with a known good one. > > (Other *obvious* info: checked & verified voltages, clocks, dipswitches. > Other good boardsets work in the same cab). > > I'm thinking the freeze mode is stuck active, but know nothing about it. > Any ideas, suggestions, or advice? Have scope, will fix. Thanks in advance! Do you see any activity on the bus when its frozen? Is the watchdog firing? (check the various irq/nmi lines). What are all the address bus lines doing? Data bus lines? On things like this I usually poke around with the scope and look for things out of the ordinary. I run down the processor. I check various address decoders. All sorts of stuff like that. It doesn't take long (and sometimes really doesn't help), but its found the bad bus transceiver, etc.. What does the board do without the math box plugged in? (I'm sure some of the real Tempest experts will pipe up with the instant answer, though.. :) Kurt This signature file is temporary until the previous file (currently on free floating metal oxide mixed with disk head fragments) is found on some non-readable backup tape. Kurt Mahan kmahan@novell.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 23 09:22:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:22:50 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:22:48 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: corrected instructions Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) thanks for letting me know about the subscription problem. i've also updated the page with a short description of what I think the list is about... Vectorlist is an automated mailing list run by aek on spies.com. The list's main function is to provide a forum for technical discussions on B&W and color caligraphic (vector) arcade video games including game repair, programming, and general hardware and software hacking. Vectorlist is an open mailing list. You can subscribe by sending the words: "subscribe vectorlist your-email@address" in the body of a mail message to vectorlist-request@spies.com. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 23 21:10:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:08:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:09:59 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com, vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Exorcisor on a chip Cc: Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: woodcock@dfwmm.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 11:07 12/22/97, wrote: > 1) Does anybody have a programmer with the necessary >adaptors to program AMD MACH series parts? Better yet, does >anybody have this adaptor for a Modular Circuit Technology >MOD-EMUPA programmer, that I might be able to borrow? > You can't borrow it (neither can I) but my employer has one that I can use anytime I want. If you email me the file, I can burn you the part. If it is in a standard DIP package, I can even burn 8 at a time on the GANG adaptor! > 2) Is there any interest in getting the Exorcisor >on ~3 22V10s? Not for me... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 24 07:26:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:25:52 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971224152905.028afcc8@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:29:05 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: Exorcisor on a chip Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Christopher V. Moore" At 11:07 AM 12/22/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Hey all, > > This weekend, I played around with fitting the Cine. >Exorcisor onto a single PLD, using the [free] tools that I had >at my disposal (AMD's PALASM.) > > I'm looking for some feedback from people about the >following stuff: > > 1) Does anybody have a programmer with the necessary >adaptors to program AMD MACH series parts? Better yet, does >anybody have this adaptor for a Modular Circuit Technology >MOD-EMUPA programmer, that I might be able to borrow? > > 2) Is there any interest in getting the Exorcisor >on ~3 22V10s? > >I'd appreciate any feedback... > This isn't really feedback to the above but, I've almost finished wire wrapping one from Dave Fish's schematics. Since I currently don't have access to a burner to do PAL's and other PLD's then this is the way for me to go. It's not that bad a project for wirewrapping, but I don't think that I'd want to do one much bigger. Three PALs would definately be a simpler wirewrap project. One of these days I'm going to have to get myself a burner that can do PLDs. -- Christopher V. Moore -- Principal Engineer Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 24 15:18:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:18:37 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:17:49 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Exorcisor on a chip In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971224152905.028afcc8@heartlab.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Christopher V. Moore wrote: > I've almost finished wire wrapping one from Dave Fish's schematics. Since > I currently don't have access to a burner to do PAL's and other PLD's then > this is the way for me to go. It's not that bad a project for wirewrapping, > but I don't think that I'd want to do one much bigger. Three PALs would > definately be a simpler wirewrap project. One of these days I'm going to > have to get myself a burner that can do PLDs. This is a non-issue....I'll make the programmed PLDs/PALs available either at or near the cost of the unprogrammed part. BTW: Al Kossow volunteered to burn a MACH210 for me (The Exorcisor fits VERY nicely in a MACH210 -- 71% utilization, and fewer pins on the package than any of the others that I fitted to) so I'm going to do that to make my "prototype." I may wind up buying the adaptor to my programmer anyway... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 21:04:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:03:55 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <000d01bd15a9$dad52520$2a0000df@Obie> From: "David Shoemaker" To: "Vectorlist" Subject: Battle Zone board problems Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:06:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD1566.CADBECA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD1566.CADBECA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have two BZ AVG boards each with different problems, I am hoping that = one of you here can give me some help. As I have no working BZ set I am = shooting somewhat in the dark. Monitor checked out and working, checked with an Asteroids. AVG #1 No vector output (flat line 0 v on X / Y out) (SK on) Watchdog barking With WD disabled still nothing. Test switch results in nothing AVG #2 No Vectors (Spot killer on) Board runs Self test results in "Long" tones continuously. I have waited 15 before = giving up. This board is eating the TL082 at D10 (Y). I replace it and it appears = to work ok for a minute or two then the output goes to +15Vdc. And that = is the end of that op amp. Inputs appear ok. At some point in the past the board was hit pretty hard by something, = the X op amp had blown (literally). This has been replaced and appears = to be ok. I have 4 math box boards but at this time can't tell what is what with = them. As an aside as I was doing this mail I hooked up my third AVG board and = noticed that it had a different ROM revision and very faded the words = Red Baron on it. That would explain why it was not working quite right. = I will have to test it at some other point. Thanks, David ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD1566.CADBECA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have two BZ AVG boards each with = different=20 problems, I am hoping that one of you here can give me some help.  = As I=20 have no working BZ set I am shooting somewhat in the dark.
 
Monitor checked out and working, = checked with an=20 Asteroids.
 
AVG #1
No vector = output (flat line=20 0 v on X / Y out) (SK on)
Watchdog barking
With WD = disabled still=20 nothing.
Test switch results in nothing
 
AVG #2
No Vectors (Spot killer = on)
Board=20 runs
Self test results in = "Long" tones=20 continuously.  I have waited 15 before giving up.
This board is eating the TL082 at = D10 (Y). =20 I replace it and it appears to work ok for a minute or two then the = output goes=20 to +15Vdc.  And that is the end of that op amp. Inputs appear=20 ok.
At some point in the past the board was hit pretty hard by = something, the X=20 op amp had blown (literally).  This has been replaced and appears = to be=20 ok.
 
I have 4 math box boards but at this time can't tell what is what = with=20 them.
 
As an aside as I was doing this mail I hooked up my third AVG board = and=20 noticed that it had a different ROM revision and very faded the words = Red Baron=20 on it. That would explain why it was not working quite right.  I = will have=20 to test it at some other point.
 
Thanks,
David
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD1566.CADBECA0-- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 21:11:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:11:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> From: "David Shoemaker" To: "Vectorlist" Subject: Atari Cat boxes Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:14:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD1567.ED5000E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD1567.ED5000E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not exactly vector but close enough. As I have spent the past two days trying to figure out my Battle Zone = board problems I was wondering if a Cat Box might help. If nothing else = it would have made testing the ls244's easier. I have the docs for the CB and looking at the schematics it doesn't look = really all that complex (6502 and maybe another 10 LS parts). I was = wondering if anyone would be interested trying to reproduce these. I = have a sig analyzer already (HP5004A) but that wouldn't help with the = memory checking and the buffer checking and as the 244 and 245's are = often suspect the CB really could come in handy. Now I have the docs and am willing to front some $ but I don't have a CB = and would have to get a copy of the ROM image from someone out there who = does (anyone willing to read the ROM from theres?). I am making the = assumption that SOMEONE has one. I would need some help in getting the stuff into a format for getting = boards done (Clay?). I am more than willing to do the grunt work of = entering the schematic into some capture program but I don't have = anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front. Open to ideas and comment. David ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD1567.ED5000E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not exactly vector but close=20 enough.
 
As I have spent the past two days = trying to=20 figure out my Battle Zone board problems I was wondering if a Cat Box = might=20 help.  If nothing else it would have made testing the ls244's=20 easier.
 
I have the docs for the CB and = looking at the=20 schematics it doesn't look really all that complex (6502 and maybe = another 10 LS=20 parts).  I was wondering if anyone would be interested trying to = reproduce=20 these.  I have a sig analyzer already (HP5004A) but that wouldn't = help with=20 the memory checking and the buffer checking and as the 244 and 245's are = often=20 suspect the CB really could come in handy.
 
Now I have the docs and am willing = to front some=20 $ but I don't have a CB and would have to get a copy of the ROM image = from=20 someone out there who does (anyone willing to read the ROM from = theres?). =20 I am making the assumption that SOMEONE has one.
 
I would need some help in getting = the stuff into=20 a format for getting boards done (Clay?).  I am more than willing = to do the=20 grunt work of entering the schematic into some capture program but I = don't have=20 anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front.
 
Open to ideas and = comment.
 
David
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD1567.ED5000E0-- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 21:26:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:26:42 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34A9D68E.2883@links.magenta.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:22:22 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes References: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey David Shoemaker wrote: > > Not exactly vector but close enough. > > As I have spent the past two days trying to figure out my Battle Zone > board problems I was wondering if a Cat Box might help. If nothing > else it would have made testing the ls244's easier. > > I have the docs for the CB and looking at the schematics it doesn't > look really all that complex (6502 and maybe another 10 LS parts). I > was wondering if anyone would be interested trying to reproduce > these. I have a sig analyzer already (HP5004A) but that wouldn't help > with the memory checking and the buffer checking and as the 244 and > 245's are often suspect the CB really could come in handy. > > Now I have the docs and am willing to front some $ but I don't have a > CB and would have to get a copy of the ROM image from someone out > there who does (anyone willing to read the ROM from theres?). I am > making the assumption that SOMEONE has one. > > I would need some help in getting the stuff into a format for getting > boards done (Clay?). I am more than willing to do the grunt work of > entering the schematic into some capture program but I don't have > anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front. > > Open to ideas and comment. > > David Yes I would be interested in a CAT box. I have a 5004 as well but a CAT box would help so much. jess -- Jess M. Askey *** Coming Soon - The Game Archive *** Game Spot/Audio Analyst * Pinball, Video, Parts, Collecting * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B * http://www.gamearchive.com * Laramie WY 82070 ************************************** From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 22:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:20:15 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34A9E3E0.2E2145F5@istar.ca> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:19:12 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes References: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> <34A9D68E.2883@links.magenta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson Hi! I have the Cat Box, and would be quite willing to provide you a copy of the software, gratis. The version I have supports the checksum option... John :-#)# Jess Askey wrote: > > David Shoemaker wrote: > > > > Not exactly vector but close enough. > > > > As I have spent the past two days trying to figure out my Battle Zone > > board problems I was wondering if a Cat Box might help. If nothing > > else it would have made testing the ls244's easier. > > > > I have the docs for the CB and looking at the schematics it doesn't > > look really all that complex (6502 and maybe another 10 LS parts). I > > was wondering if anyone would be interested trying to reproduce > > these. I have a sig analyzer already (HP5004A) but that wouldn't help > > with the memory checking and the buffer checking and as the 244 and > > 245's are often suspect the CB really could come in handy. > > > > Now I have the docs and am willing to front some $ but I don't have a > > CB and would have to get a copy of the ROM image from someone out > > there who does (anyone willing to read the ROM from theres?). I am > > making the assumption that SOMEONE has one. > > > > I would need some help in getting the stuff into a format for getting > > boards done (Clay?). I am more than willing to do the grunt work of > > entering the schematic into some capture program but I don't have > > anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front. > > > > Open to ideas and comment. > > > > David > > Yes I would be interested in a CAT box. I have a 5004 as well but a CAT > box would help so much. > jess > -- > Jess M. Askey *** Coming Soon - The Game Archive *** > Game Spot/Audio Analyst * Pinball, Video, Parts, Collecting * > 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B * http://www.gamearchive.com * > Laramie WY 82070 ************************************** -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 23:05:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:05:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:04:42 -0600 (CST) From: X-Sender: jwelser@piglet.cc.utexas.edu To: Vectorlist Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, David Shoemaker wrote: > I have the docs for the CB and looking at the schematics it doesn't look really all that complex (6502 and maybe another 10 LS parts). I was wondering if anyone would be interested trying to reproduce these. I have a sig analyzer already (HP5004A) but that wouldn't help with the memory checking and the buffer checking and as the 244 and 245's are often suspect the CB really could come in handy. > > Now I have the docs and am willing to front some $ but I don't have a CB and would have to get a copy of the ROM image from someone out there who does (anyone willing to read the ROM from theres?). I am making the assumption that SOMEONE has one. > > I would need some help in getting the stuff into a format for getting boards done (Clay?). I am more than willing to do the grunt work of entering the schematic into some capture program but I don't have anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front. > > Open to ideas and comment. > With my "Exorcisor on a chip" project pretty much done, I'm willing to take on a "CAT Box on a chip" (or three, given that you said there's a 6502 and a ROM on there) project. Are you able to scan in the docs and schematic? Joe From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 23:34:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:34:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <002601bd15be$e28e7b80$2a0000df@Obie> From: "David Shoemaker" To: Cc: "Jess Askey" , "John Robertson" Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:37:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker" >I have the Cat Box, and would be quite willing to provide you a copy of >the software, gratis. The version I have supports the checksum option... Cool, there goes the hard part. Now I just need some hand holding along the way and we should be able to build some Cat Box's. Next question, what would people be willing to spend on one of these? I know I would have droped $200 on one of these if I had found one, but I am known to be a bit compulsive. The original came in its own case and had lots of misc cool toys with it (cables etc). That I don't expect to be able to repo but we should be able to come up with on our own. I am guessing (VERY rough guess here) something in the area of $50 - $100 with PCB and "Bag o Parts" construction. Along with a copy of the original docs as a pdf. Once again open to all input. David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Dec 30 23:50:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:50:02 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:48:58 -0700 (MST) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@janeway To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: Jess Askey , John Robertson , David Shoemaker Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <002601bd15be$e28e7b80$2a0000df@Obie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen If someone gives me the schematics, I'de be willing to just grunt draw em up, and then do the pcb layout. I have Protel's Advanced schematics capture and pcb layout tools. It would be very nice to have a CAT box. Is everyone keen on a repro (exact dupe), or a new "redesign" -- i.e., support logic on some plds + processor + rom firmware? Personally, I just want one that is "functionally equivalent" for now. Improvements can always be done later... +------------------------------------------+ | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center +------------------------------------------+ On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, David Shoemaker wrote: > >I have the Cat Box, and would be quite willing to provide you a copy of > >the software, gratis. The version I have supports the checksum option... > > Cool, there goes the hard part. Now I just need some hand holding along the > way and we should be able to build some Cat Box's. Next question, what > would people be willing to spend on one of these? I know I would have > droped $200 on one of these if I had found one, but I am known to be a bit > compulsive. > > The original came in its own case and had lots of misc cool toys with it > (cables etc). That I don't expect to be able to repo but we should be able > to come up with on our own. > > I am guessing (VERY rough guess here) something in the area of $50 - $100 > with PCB and "Bag o Parts" construction. Along with a copy of the original > docs as a pdf. > > Once again open to all input. > > David > > > > > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 06:15:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 06:15:35 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971231100931.1b6fbc04@pop.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:09:31 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_883591771==_" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: fishd --=====================_883591771==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:14 PM 12/30/97 -0800, Dave S. wrote: >Not exactly vector but close enough. > > >Now I have the docs and am willing to front some $ but I don't have a CB and would have to get a copy of the ROM image from someone out there who does (anyone willing to read the ROM from theres?). I am making the assumption that SOMEONE has one. > >I would need some help in getting the stuff into a format for getting boards done (Clay?). I am more than willing to do the grunt work of entering the schematic into some capture program but I don't have anything to do the job. Suggestions welcome on that front. > >Open to ideas and comment. > I sent the EPROM image to Al a few months ago to have put up on TANT. Unfortunately, I don't think TANT is still around so I'm will attach the 'bin' file to this e-mail (hope it makes it). Reproducing the boards may be a bit pricey; there are two 7 1/2" X 11" PCB's sandwiched together, the top board has mounted to it the 16 button key-pad, six 7-segment LED displays, eight red T-1 3/4 LEDs, three pushbuttons, 11 toggle switches, three BNC connectors, a power switch, a fuse holder and an AC cord socket (Phwew!). The bottom board has the CPU, MEM and logic. I'm guessing that the 'Interface' board really can't be shrunk or altered that much unless all the components listed above get hand-wired' so your still dealing with a fairly large board ($$$). Good Luck, here's the image to get you started. --=====================_883591771==_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CAT_BOX.BIN" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CAT_BOX.BIN" ArtaMFDuPahDT1BZUklHSFQgMTk4MCwgQVRBUkksIElOQy6lgCl/hYAsBkAQA0zHYK0IQCkC8AYg amBMVGCpAIWbhZeFnIWYjQA4IO9gIMdiICRjqQCFlKWAMAvmlND4qS+FHljQ8UwjYKkAhZaFmIWC qRCFm6Wc8AjGnKlAhZfQBKkAhZcsB0AQAWCiQKUCxYPwAoachYOlAMWE8AKGnIWEqQCNADhgSIpI mEjYpYAJgIWAqS+FHq0GQDADIC5kaKhoqmhYQHjYov+aqQAsBkAQA0y7ZJUAyjD7jQAwjQA4hQSF AYUDqS+FHlhMI2CtAEFqamoglWKgACSaMANwD2CpIIWYhJmlhoWDpYeFhKWaKb+FmoSWpYOFhqWE hYetCEApAtAFLAZAEAFghJSElSwDQBAEqQOFlSwFQDADTMVhLARAEANMIWIsAkAQDqkLeI0AILGD WIWCTJRhrQFAMAulgywAQBACSf+FgqkLeI0AILGDWMWC8AiFhamAhZYwKeaD0ALmhMaU0NGllfAF xpVMXGEkmhAqrQBBKQLwI6WGhYOlh4WETB9hogAsBkAwEa0IQCkC0AqtAEEpAtDrytDqhJhgLAJA EAYgD2JM9mGtAUAwC6WDLABAEAJJ/4WCIA9ixpTQBqWV8AvGleaD0N/mhEzQYaWGhYOlh4WEJJoQ Cq0AQSkC8ANMH2GEmGB4pQxIpYKiCo4AIJGDaIUeWGCEgoSFqQ8sAkAQBKkH0AcsA0AQAqkfhZWp C3iNACCxg1gsAUAQDRhlgoWCmGWFhYVMZ2IsAEAwChhlgmkAhYJMZ2JFgoWC5oPQAuaExpTQyKWV 8AXGlUw5YqWChYOlhYWEqQIsAkAwBwosA0AQAQqFgoSYYDAQpZkpf9AHhZmpAIWaYMaZYKWZyf/Q B6WaCYCFmmDmmaWZyRDQCglAhZmlmglAhZpgrQBBKQTQAWCpAIWWrQVAECqgAKkLeI0AILGDWIWC qSCFmKkBjQA4LAVAEAetAEEpBNDgqQCFmI0AOGCgACAPYqkghZipAY0AOCwFQDAHrQBBKQTQ9KkA hZiNADhgrQhAKQjwFuaD0ALmhKkAhZaiAK0IQCkI0PfK0PapAIWdrfBAKR7wEa3wQCke8AqpgIWd qQSFntAPrQhAKQTwF6lAhZ2pAoWfIHxjogCt8EApHtD3ytD2YKkAhaqFlqIElaCVpcoQ+SSdEB2g ASDBYwoKCgqZgwDGniDBYxmDAJmDAMaeiBDmYCDBYwoKCgqFgsafIMFjBYKFgsafYJhIIOljSK0I QCkC8ANMx2BooAjK0P2I0PokqjDlsOOqqYCFqmioimCpQIWVqYCFlKIDIBRk0AlGlMoQ9oWqOGCg /0rIkPyKCgqElGWUqr2AZhhgoACxlCkeSrSglaCYNaAVpZWlmBWgNaWVpWCmgejgCJACogGGgakA jQAoigoKCgoKBZuNADCtCEBqamopgIWr4AfQC6kABZYFlwWYTLdkyopKqtANpZYQCa0IQCkQ8AKi A7WCsAQpDxAGKfBKSkpKyQqQCCyrABADGGkGqLlqZqaB4AOwByyrABACqQAsqwAwEuSf8AyQCsrK 8AjknvACsAKpAI0AKGCpII0AMKkAjQAooACiAJidgADI6BD4ihhpgKqYGGmAqJhdgACdgADwBKkG 0FHI6BDvmDhpgKjQ1KlnhZWgB6IAioWUQZTGlND6xpWIEPWFlMkA8ASpW9AmpQWFBKkvhR5YqQCF lOaUpZQkgDAGybCQ9LAEyZ+wBKlP0ANMUGWiBcrQBY0AKPD2oACMACgsBkAw7kzHYK0GQDADTMdg pJi5mWWFlLmaZYWVbJQAJIAQ/KkAhYAgo2WtCEApDPDXqQCNACiiAK0IQCkM0PfK0PammOjo4AmQ AqIAhphMUGW+Zc1l22X0ZQ5m5pbQAuaXpZYpB6q1m40AKLWjCgoKCgqNADBgogep/5WbipWjyhD2 TGdlogepAJWblaPKEPlMZ2WiB6n/hZqVm6kAlaPKEPOllykHqpWjTGdlpZcpB6qpADgqyhD8qKIH lJuKlaPKEPhMZ2WtBUBNA0BNAkBNAEBNAUApgIWZrQhAKRBFmYWZrQBBKQRFmYWZrQhATQBBKQJF mYWZrRBATSBATUBATYBAKR5FmcWa8BSFmqCHpZsQAqB5ogeUm4qVo8oQ+ExnZT8GW09mbX0Hf2/3 /Lne+fF3OXF2cz4PCwcDDgoGAg0JBQEMCAQA//////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////87HYMdgqGA= --=====================_883591771==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.net | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ --=====================_883591771==_-- From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 06:50:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 06:50:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971231105049.3f470fea@pop.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:50:49 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971231100931.1b6fbc04@pop.tiac.net> References: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: fishd At 10:09 AM 12/31/97, D. Fish hastily wrote: >At 09:14 PM 12/30/97 -0800, Dave S. wrote: I know it's bad form to follow up your own post or e-mail but... >pushbuttons, 11 toggle switches, three BNC connectors, a power switch, >a fuse holder and an AC cord socket (Phwew!). The bottom board has the Oooops. The power switch, fuse holder and AC socket don't mount to the board. That will teach me to type before my 2nd cup of coffee ;-) David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.net | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 09:25:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:25:06 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:24:02 -0700 (MST) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@janeway To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: fishd Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19971231100931.1b6fbc04@pop.tiac.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, fishd wrote: > I sent the EPROM image to Al a few months ago to have put up on > TANT. Unfortunately, I don't think TANT is still around so I'm will > attach the 'bin' file to this e-mail (hope it makes it). > > Reproducing the boards may be a bit pricey; there are two 7 1/2" X 11" > PCB's sandwiched together, the top board has mounted to it the 16 > button key-pad, six 7-segment LED displays, eight red T-1 3/4 LEDs, three > pushbuttons, 11 toggle switches, three BNC connectors, a power switch, > a fuse holder and an AC cord socket (Phwew!). The bottom board has the > CPU, MEM and logic. I'm guessing that the 'Interface' board really > can't be shrunk or altered that much unless all the components listed > above get hand-wired' so your still dealing with a fairly large board ($$$). > > Good Luck, here's the image to get you started. > Cool. I just disasembled the bin file and am checking out the code right now. It looks like the "firmware" rom sits at 6000h. It is not very long. The code only fills 68Fh bytes (minus the reset and interrupt vectors). Now who has a schematic of the catbox they want to cough up??? +------------------------------------------+ | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center +------------------------------------------+ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 10:03:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:03:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34AA88A5.1DFC8158@istar.ca> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:02:13 -0800 From: John Robertson Organization: John's Jukes Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes References: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> <3.0.1.16.19971231105049.3f470fea@pop.tiac.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: John Robertson I have two of these CAT BOXES in the shop and can photocopy the solder side of them if that would help in the layout. I also have the interface boards for the connectors, and the docs on the checksum mod. Is this of use to this project? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 10:23:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:23:11 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:22:07 -0700 (MST) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@janeway To: vectorlist@spies.com cc: John Robertson Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes In-Reply-To: <34AA88A5.1DFC8158@istar.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Anders Knudsen Couldn't hurt. Are the catbox pcbs only single sided? No traces on the component side? A schematic would be cool. ;-) +------------------------------------------+ | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center +------------------------------------------+ On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Robertson wrote: > I have two of these CAT BOXES in the shop and can photocopy the solder > side of them if that would help in the layout. I also have the interface > boards for the connectors, and the docs on the checksum mod. Is this of > use to this project? > > John :-#)# > > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) > mailto:jrr@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." > From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 10:51:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:50:59 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971231105023.00942d80@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: luna@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:50:26 -0800 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: "Chris.Hanks" Subject: Anders' WG LV solution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Chris.Hanks" Is anybody planning on producing Ander's Wells-Gardner Low-Voltage solution board in quantity? There was alot of talk about it some time back, but I don't know if anybody actually proceeded. That would be a very handy to have! I could use a few of them myself. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 11:20:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:20:33 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34AA7698.4713@erols.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:45:12 -0800 From: Kev X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes References: <001901bd15aa$fc877000$2a0000df@Obie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Kev David Shoemaker wrote: > As I have spent the past two days trying to figure out my Battle Zone > board problems I was wondering if a Cat Box might help. If nothing > else it would have made testing the ls244's easier. > Open to ideas and comment. > Gosh I've gone round & round with the BZ mathbox & Atari Cat Box, very fustrating thing to fix. I also used my Cat Box this past week to verify some EPROM checksums on a PCB. Is everyone else finding the 74LS244's a major source of problems? I' worked on 3 Missle Command PCB this week and found many of them to be bad. Rom cheksums won't work at 5.0 VDC but do work at 3.8 and other assorted oddities. I like the Cat Box but I think we have much more talent & abilities here to build useful test equipment. How many people own and actually use a Signature Analyzer here? It is a very rare occassion that I'll drag mine out, a O-scope will catch most thing and is simpler to use (already set up and running on my bench, directly under my computer monitor). Logic probe is a useless function on the Cat Box. RAM/ ROM tester & EPROM checksums are the neat functions I like. This weekend I rigged up a cable interface, that plugs to the Atari Test Connector and mates with a 40 pin wire wrap machine socket that I insert into my EPROM reader (wired up as a 512 EPROM). With this I remove the 6502, and read the ROMs, in curcuit. I assume it would be possible to program a R/W for RAM testing too. On the Cat Box you must do this by hand, loading the RAM then reading/comparing the RAM. Wouldn't it be possible to do all this with a EPROM burner? The idea of the ICE was also mentioned before here but I belive that is too expensive yet, commercially. Look at other games that also have the "test connectors" built in.... Galaxians/Pac Man (Z80 <- Atari also had a module to do Z80 & 6809, I have the Z80, never seen the 6809). Bally MCR series. But wouldn't a 40 pin CPU socket work best? -- Kev http://www.erols.com/mowerman <- Coin Op Video Game site REMOVE "?" FROM MY E-MAIL Looking for any Pac Man info & a few good PCBs... From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 11:45:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:45:18 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:45:15 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) re: in-circuit emulators if you wanted a PC interface that could just test data paths and things, a state machine that would generate read and write cycles for a particular CPU would be fairly straightforward. lets see, you'd need a circuit for a Z80, 6502, 6809, 6800... :-( ..but it would be smaller than having in-circuit emulators for all these cpu's From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 12:58:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:58:22 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:51:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Dec 31, 97 11:45:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <34aabe4b0.6dfa@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1557 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" > re: in-circuit emulators > > if you wanted a PC interface that could just test data paths and things, > a state machine that would generate read and write cycles for a particular > CPU would be fairly straightforward. lets see, you'd need a circuit for > a Z80, 6502, 6809, 6800... :-( Ok -- I'm gonna launch off into fantasy land.. It would be nice to have an interface (pci/isa) to a 40 pin dip (and whatever else, like an atari test connector, etc..) with each pin being fairly controllable for i/o. I'd actually like to have another 16 or 32 random IOs to hook up to various test points... Then write some ICE-like software for the various cpus. I'm not talking the "perfect" software like on my HP Z80 ice (which likes to point out how bad the clocks are, how some of the boards I try it on just shouldn't work due to crappy designs, etc..) but something that I could generate various read/write cycles, cycle address and data lines, check clocks, watch for the watch dog... (all the things I currently due by writing my own roms..) Oh yeah -- it would be nice to be able to read out memory and write "custom" readers to do bank switches and things.. For those fun wms boards write a ram exerciser so I could leave it running overnight and burn the rams out myself rather than waiting for the middle of a game... (ok, I'm lazy..) It would be cool to do "real time" runs, but I certainly wouldn't be sad if it didn't. Anyway, I'd be glad to help out on the software end if something comes of this.. .. back to reality ... Kurt From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 13:02:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:02:16 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <004c01bd162f$a7bd0aa0$2a0000df@Obie> From: "David Shoemaker" To: Cc: "fishd" , "Anders Knudsen" Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:04:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "David Shoemaker" >Cool. I just disasembled the bin file and am checking out the code right >now. It looks like the "firmware" rom sits at 6000h. It is not very long. >The code only fills 68Fh bytes (minus the reset and interrupt vectors). >Now who has a schematic of the catbox they want to cough up??? I will scan the schematic in today and toss it up on my web page. If there is interest I will also send it to the list. It really doesn't look all that complex. And Joe (jwelser@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) has mentioned that he is willing to tackle the "Cat on a Chip" in his ongoing series of "On a Chip" test equipment. This would probably reduce the board size dramatically. As for the two paper size boards I think we can reduce the total size quite a bit. Its not like we are going to be going into production on these so we can make some compromises. There have been a couple of suggestions on feature additions. This sounds great to me once we have a good idea of what the original box did. After looking over the docs I think these are what I would tackle (my wish list) Dump the Logic probe, pretty much everyone savvy enough to use a CB already has one and that is an unneeded expense. Modify the code to test ram in larger than 1K chunks. Modify the box to work on other non CB enabled boards. Probably some sort of CPU plug adapter. The docs I have I think cover the Checksum mod for the CB if not then we definitely want to incorporate that from John's images and units. I could also see turning this into a PC interfacable device so we could go to the other processors and companies boards. I am typing this on a Pentium 166mmx. That is a hell of a lot more power than the boards we are working on and I would love to put some of that power to use. But I don't want feature creep to make us lose sight of the goal. A readily available replacement for a useful piece of test equipment. David From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 13:08:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:08:32 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:08:29 -0800 (PST) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: aek (Al Kossow) "Ok -- I'm gonna launch off into fantasy land.. It would be nice to have an interface (pci/isa) to a 40 pin dip (and whatever else, like an atari test connector, etc..) with each pin being fairly controllable for i/o. I'd actually like to have another 16 or 32 random IOs to hook up to various test points... " I thought about this a month or so ago, and the problem you run into is when you have a synchronous memory design, where you have to reference memory or I/O timing to the clock on the board you're debugging. You can't just wiggle the I/O pins in software on the PC and have the interface work. You run into this on older Atari games where they play the trick of cycle stealing memory accesses on the other half of the CPU clock.. This was why I was talking about CPU-specific state machines which could be clocked from the on-board oscillator.. You would pass it a starting adr, than 'read' or 'write' commands and then watch a 'done' bit (or you could bring out a 'wait' line) when the memory operation is finished. You could get fancy and have an internal auto incrementing adr register too, since the operations are all on 8 bit quantities. From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 13:19:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:19:05 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34AAB60D.4E00@links.magenta.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:15:57 -0700 From: Jess Askey Organization: The Audio Analyst/The Game Spot X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@spies.com Subject: Re: Atari Cat boxes References: <004c01bd162f$a7bd0aa0$2a0000df@Obie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Jess Askey David Shoemaker wrote: > After looking over the docs I think these are what I would tackle (my wish > list) > > Dump the Logic probe, pretty much everyone savvy enough to use a CB already > has one and that is an unneeded expense. > Modify the code to test ram in larger than 1K chunks. I will volunteer time to do any software hacks needed to the code. jess -- Jess M. Askey *** Coming Soon - The Game Archive *** Game Spot/Audio Analyst * Pinball, Video, Parts, Collecting * 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B * http://www.gamearchive.com * Laramie WY 82070 ************************************** From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 16:11:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:10:46 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:10:25 GMT X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Anders' WG LV solution Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) I think we (Anders and I) might go ahead and produce these things. We were discussing it a couple of days ago and are going to start looking for somewhere to do it. Ander might make one or two more changes before we proceed. We were thinking of offering it in several forms 1) PCB only 2) PCB and bag-o-parts 3) assembled and ready to install once these things are assembled, it takes about 30 seconds to install one (it takes longer to remove the old parts from the deflection board) If enough people are interested in these with parts, we can get a price break on the voltage regulators, pots, etc. Our biggest decision is going to be how many of these things to have made. For anybody that might be new to this list, these are little PCBs that replace all the low voltage components of a wells gardner color xy monitor (you never have to buy another zanen kit for these parts again). Anyone that's owned a tempest has probably had these parts burn out at sometime or another (IE. R100, R101, etc) I have about 6 of these things installed in various games and 2 of them are in star wars machines that have been running constantly for almost a year (they are in a movie theatre), and I've had no problems yet. -jeff >Is anybody planning on producing Ander's Wells-Gardner >Low-Voltage solution board in quantity? There was >alot of talk about it some time back, but I don't >know if anybody actually proceeded. That would >be a very handy to have! I could use a few of >them myself. jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 20:49:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:48:49 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:50:38 -0500 To: vectorlist@spies.com From: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) Subject: Re: Anders' WG LV solution Cc: "Chris.Hanks" Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: Woodcock@123net.net (Gregg Woodcock) At 10:50 12/31/97, Chris.Hanks wrote: >Is anybody planning on producing Ander's Wells-Gardner >Low-Voltage solution board in quantity? There was >alot of talk about it some time back, but I don't >know if anybody actually proceeded. That would >be a very handy to have! I could use a few of >them myself. It was done and the guy who did it should still have LOTS of them left and they were VERY cheap. Check my latest W-G monitor file for contact info! From spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Dec 31 21:43:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:43:19 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: Anders' WG LV solution To: vectorlist@spies.com Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:36:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hendrix" at Jan 1, 98 00:10:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <34ab395f0.8dd@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 680 Sender: owner-vectorlist@spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@spies.com CC: "Kurt Mahan" > I think we (Anders and I) might go ahead and produce these things. We were > discussing it a couple of days ago and are going to start looking for > somewhere to do it. Ander might make one or two more changes before we > proceed. > > We were thinking of offering it in several forms > 2) PCB and bag-o-parts I'd take 6 or so of these.. I can probably convince some of the local distributors who still fix these things to take some too (depending on the price..) Kurt This signature file is temporary until the previous file (currently on free floating metal oxide mixed with disk head fragments) is found on some non-readable backup tape. Kurt Mahan kmahan@novell.com