From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 00:04:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:03:47 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Barrier drawings up Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I got a care package in the mail today from Kurt, so I ran down to work and scanned all the stuff in. This manual has the cleanest set of CPU drawings i've ever seen! I'm probably the only one who cares, but, it also looks like this one set of CPU drawings was done on a Xerox drawing system (I recognize the font...) The quality was so good, I scanned in almost the whole manual at 600 DPI. The schematics look really good blown up to 11 * 17 with the exception of one sheet that had really tiny type. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 08:47:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:46:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: replacement for 6012? Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:44:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, My memory may be failing me, but the TL182 is the ALU for the bit sliced architecture. Three TL182s are next to the EPROMs and are the same size as the EPROMs (but without the windows). Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I've never heard of a TL182 failing? >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 7:58 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? > >cool. I'll update the copy on the schematics page when it >appears. > >someone on RGVAC was looking for a TL182 for a cine sound board. >I looked at all the sound schematics, and all of them only use >TL081's for Op Amps. i wonder if he needs one for a Cine raster >game? > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 08:58:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:00:52 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708011600.AA11404@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > G'day folks, > > My memory may be failing me, but the TL182 is the ALU for the bit sliced > architecture. Three TL182s are next to the EPROMs and are the same size > as the EPROMs (but without the windows). Those are 74LS181s (Close in number....but not the same.) Actually, there IS a 74LS182, which is the Carry-Lookahead Generator on there too. The manuals actually refer to 25LS181s, which I've never heard of before. > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > > ps - I've never heard of a TL182 failing? I've never run into that either (with LS181s) Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:01:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:08:10 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I was just looking at 12 bit D/A's with the >thought of building a little cine > WG adapter, >and came upon the Analog Devices DAC312 > >This part looks like it is pin compatible >with the AMD 6012! > >The block diagram even looks like the AMD one >in the '81 AMD Linear Data Book! > >Anyone want to try getting some 'samples'? I'll volunteer! I can't believe I missed the similarity before. I guess I never found the DAC312 in the "product selector" trees. Not only does the block diagram look the same, the example applications look the same. I'd say there's a 90% probability that it's a licensed 2nd source for the 6012. Anyway, I'll see what I can find on it, and as long as it's cheaper than the surface mount AM6012 -> DIP boards that I did it's a win... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:11:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:54 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Those are 74LS181s (Close in number....but not the same.) Actually, >there IS a 74LS182, which is the Carry-Lookahead Generator on there too. > > The manuals actually refer to 25LS181s, which I've never heard of >before. Do believe those are just Advanced Microdevices old "equivalent" numbering scheme for 74xxx parts. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:12:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:12:22 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I dug around a bit more, a TL182 is an analog switch. One of the sad things around Apple is no one (except me..) saves old data books. The TL182 isn't in the latest book but it was in volume 2 of the '92 linear books. I can tell because I found a copy of Vol 1 :-( From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:14:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com 25LS series parts were AMD LS TTL. They (sometimes) match the TI 74LS part numbers. The AMD 25LS serial multiplier part has a TI equivalent, with a different part number. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:18:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:17:46 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com clay said: "Anyway, I'll see what I can find on it, and as long as it's cheaper than the surface mount AM6012 -> DIP boards that I did it's a win... I was looking for something to use instead of the DAC80's for a cine->WG converter and found those. They also have a really cool dual 12 bit double buffered DAC with an 8 bit uP interface (DAC 8248) if someone wanted to build a completely in software vector generator.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:21:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:21:15 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Barrier sound board looks like Space War! Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com For yucks, I pulled out my Space War board set, and with a few deltas, it looks like the Barrier sound board. They are VERY close (a couple of extra parts around the TL182... TL182!, so thats where they use it!) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 09:47:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: TL182 cross Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Looks like Siliconix makes (made?) a cross for the TL182. Here's the pinout The TL182 is a dual SPST JFET switch S1 1 14 S2 D1 2 13 D2 <-- the switch 3 12 4 11 I1 5 10 <-- ttl switch in V+ 6 9 V- 5v 7 8 GND Siliconix DG180/181/182's should work. The various parts have 10,30, and 75 ohms of ON resistance. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Barrier sound board looks like Space War! Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:01:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day, Now that's an exciting find, Al! I've always wondered if two Cinematronics sound boards were close enough that you could make one from the other with the addition of a few parts! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:21 AM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Barrier sound board looks like Space War! > > >For yucks, I pulled out my Space War board set, and >with a few deltas, it looks like the Barrier sound >board. They are VERY close (a couple of extra parts >around the TL182... TL182!, so thats where they use >it!) > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:03:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:10:41 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? (pricing) Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Looks like pricing on the DAC312 is about $7.50 a pop from Newark. Price break at 100+ down to about $6.60. My AM6012 (surface mount) to DIP boards were going at $7, so it's kind-of a push for me. Newark has a $25 minimum order, but since that's only 4 chips it's no big deal. I dunno if they're stock though, if they're not stock Newark does screwy stuff like 500 piece minimum orders and whatnot... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:10:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:17:15 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I was looking for something to use instead of the DAC80's for a cine->WG >converter and found those. They also have a really cool dual 12 bit double >buffered DAC with an 8 bit uP interface (DAC 8248) if someone wanted to >build a completely in software vector generator.. Ahhhhh... I see. I'd just go for something like a MAX 502 then. 12 bit, voltage output, in production, free samples, etc. No real reason (IMHO) to chase 6012 equivalents except for existing designs. You can still get DAC-80's if you just want to clone the WG monitor adapter, but at something over 200 parts that was a bit more than I wanted to deal with... ;-) AD7845's fit the bill nicely too. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:20:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 10:25 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970801101941.259710dc@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:17 AM 8/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I was looking for something to use instead of the DAC80's for a cine->WG >>converter and found those. They also have a really cool dual 12 bit double >>buffered DAC with an 8 bit uP interface (DAC 8248) if someone wanted to >>build a completely in software vector generator.. > >Ahhhhh... I see. I'd just go for something like a MAX 502 then. 12 bit, >voltage output, in production, free samples, etc. No real reason (IMHO) to >chase 6012 equivalents except for existing designs. You can still get >DAC-80's if you just want to clone the WG monitor adapter, but at something >over 200 parts that was a bit more than I wanted to deal with... ;-) > >AD7845's fit the bill nicely too. > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >_______________________________________________________________________ >/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ > > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:25:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 10:30 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970801102431.25975820@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:17 AM 8/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I was looking for something to use instead of the DAC80's for a cine->WG >>converter and found those. They also have a really cool dual 12 bit double >>buffered DAC with an 8 bit uP interface (DAC 8248) if someone wanted to >>build a completely in software vector generator.. > >Ahhhhh... I see. I'd just go for something like a MAX 502 then. 12 bit, >voltage output, in production, free samples, etc. No real reason (IMHO) to >chase 6012 equivalents except for existing designs. You can still get >DAC-80's if you just want to clone the WG monitor adapter, but at something >over 200 parts that was a bit more than I wanted to deal with... ;-) (Sorry about that last *empty* reply, my itchy mouse finger pressed the wrong button) This is just to let anybody interested know that the DAC-800 was a monolithic replacement for the DAC-80, it's drop in compatible and has tighter specs. The surplus store I by replacement parts had a few of these and no DAC-80, so I bought them and they work fine! (In fact because of their tighter specs, I'm currently running with those and use the DAC-80's as backups). I don't know the availability of these parts. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:34:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 10:39 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970801103334.25971f3c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: Barrier sound board looks like Space War! Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:01 AM 8/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day, > >Now that's an exciting find, Al! I've always wondered if two >Cinematronics sound boards were close enough that you could make one >from the other with the addition of a few parts! You can also easily hack a Star Castle sound card into a War of the Worlds sound card. (There's a description for doing so on Bill's Cinematronics Home Page at: http://www.concentric.net/~Zonn if your interested in this, just click on "technical") -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:44:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 10:48 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970801104315.2f67b13c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:17 AM 8/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >clay said: >"Anyway, I'll see what I can find on it, and as long as it's cheaper than >the surface mount AM6012 -> DIP boards that I did it's a win... > > >I was looking for something to use instead of the DAC80's for a cine->WG >converter and found those. They also have a really cool dual 12 bit double >buffered DAC with an 8 bit uP interface (DAC 8248) if someone wanted to >build a completely in software vector generator.. And if someone *were* to do this, I would do my best to support it with the emulator, and then given sound, we'd have a functionally equivalent remake of the original Cinematronics games using none of the original hardware! (I'm assuming WG's color or Asteriod B&W monitors would be used for all the games.) This would certainly remove the need for a Cinematronics -> Color board. Kind of a cool thought! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 10:53:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: replacement for 6012? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Using the WG or Asteroids monitor was the thought. That's the problem with thumbing through data books, you see all these parts and then start thinking about things you could do with them (assuming you can actually GET the parts..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 15:18:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:18:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:18:07 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: newark on-line catalog Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Turns out Newark has a web-based catalog. DAC312HP's are: 1-9 $7.43 10-24 $6.75 25-99 $5.40 www.newark.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 21:32:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BC9EDB.E19FBD60@liv35.tir.com> From: Frank Palazzolo To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Speech Chips & Simulation Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:34:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Vectorlisters... I'm trying to write a program to simulate a TMS5220. I think I've got enough data so that this should be pretty straightforward. I'd like to make it flexible enough to simulate a SP0250 as well. Does anyone have any data at all on the SP0250? I looked back through the list archives and I thought I saw that someone had found a GI databook. Thanks, Frank Palazzolo PS. The outcome of this may be that I can go the other way - from sample to compressed ROM image. palazzol@tir.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 1 21:44:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:44:47 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Speech Chips & Simulation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com This was all I was able to come up with. If you're really ambitious, you could try Microchip in Chandler,AZ but I didn't get anywhere with them. From: "Duke, Peter" To: aek@spies.com Subject: RE: SP0250 data Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:26:40 +1000 X-Priority: 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Status: RO There is just one page. The rest is electrical stuff. There are 15 parameters each of 1 byte, which are input to pins 3 2 28 27 26 25 24 23 (3 is Most Significant Bit). The bytes are labelled (in order) C21, C11, Amplitude, C22, C12, Pitch, C23, C13, Repeat, C24, C14, C25, C15, C26, C16. The C's are the twelve (reflection?) coefficients, where the MSB is the sign, 1 = pos. The amplitude in direct data mode has the 3 MSBs as exponent. The pitch does not have a sign bit. Repeat has MSB set to 0, MSB-1 set to V(u), remaining bits the repeat value. It does not say what V(u) is (there is a bar over the u). It may be the voiced/unvoiced flag. Finally there is a description of a byte which may be an alternative to the amplitude. The MSB is sign 1 = neg, the rest is amplitude. A note says "exponent from normal mode remains until changed". That's all I have on programming. Sorry Peter From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 2 13:11:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:11:39 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: zektor speech roms Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com has anyone been able to get speech working fom the archived rom data? it appears 1607 and 1608 are both 2048 bytes long and are the same data. is there any difference in board jumper settings? between zektor and trek? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 2 23:01:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:01:10 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: zektor speech roms are fine Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com sometimes it's best just to go do something else for a few hours and come back to a project later... From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 13:50:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BCA02D.A466BC20@liv28.tir.com> From: Frank Palazzolo To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Star Wars Sound ROM corrupt? Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:52:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I think there may be a problem with the currently available sound ROM image from Star Wars labelled 136021.208. The readme.txt says it has a checksum 9358 (hex) and my checksum program says 1358 (hex). Moreover, it fails the Sound Card Self Test on an emulator. Unfortunately, I had to give the Star Wars game I was fixing back to the rightful owner already, so I can't verify this on hardware right now. :< Anyone with a game want to give this a shot, or compare their ROM to the archived one? It might be that it fails the self test but still works fine in a game. Otherwise I'll check it out when I get another one in here. Thanks a lot, Frank Palazzolo palazzol@tir.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 14:04:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <01BCA02F.9C3D4760@liv28.tir.com> From: Frank Palazzolo To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Star Wars Sound ROM corrupt? Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:06:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Please disregard my previous message... (How could I screw up a checksum program....Doh!) -Frank palazzol@tir.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 15:19:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Star Wars Sound ROM corrupt? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I'll check my set tonight From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 15:20:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: Star Wars Sound ROM corrupt? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Please disregard my previous message... (How could I screw up a checksum program....Doh!) ..guess I should read all my mail before I reply. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 18:16:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:16:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: britt, vectorlist Subject: Vstick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com this looks kind of fun.. http://www.alpha1.net/~v-stick The V-Stick is a full-sized, dual joystick arcade control panel for use with personal computers. Made from the same quality arcade parts the full-sized machines use, the V-Stick returns control to PC games that can be rivaled only by dropping quarters into machines in arcades. The development of arcade game emulators (programs that run the original game code from arcade machines) brings a need for tighter, more precise control than the standard analog controller can deliver. The V-Stick brings not one, but two 8-way digital arcade joysticks to the PC, perfect for use with classic and modern video games. J V-Stick Features: Dual 8-way digital arcade joysticks Two buttons per joystick,J Left and right-handed players supported (mirrored button layout) Full-sized (23.5") arcade styled control panel Plugs into any PC keyboard port - no joystick card required! Computer keyboard remains fully operational Compatible with most games Heavy-duty construction with real arcade components J J $79.95 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 3 22:42:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:42:23 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: two older speech articles Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I scanned in two older speech hardware articles that gave a nice overview of formant hardware, and some descriptions of the filters. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 12:16:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 04 Aug 1997 15:14 EDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: More Rotary Encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Paul was right", zonn@pop3.concentric.net writes: > >Hmmmm. Actually I hadn't thought about it a lot yet. In retrospect, I > >suppose there's enough I/O that I could use a bit or two for "mode select". > >I was thinking of just having everything work simultaneously, but I guess > >that isn't necessary. Close a jumper and it's a G-80 spinner, open and > >it's a Midway spinner... That'd be kinda cool. > > Actually I was thinking the same thing! > > Read inputs > Output G-80 spinner... > Output Midway spinner... > Output Dir & Clock... > etc. > loop > In all the recent discussions about rotary encoders, I don't think I ever saw anyone mention Cinematronics. The reason this comes to mind now, sev- eral weeks later, is that I just started work on connecting a Boxing Bugs board set to my Cosmic Chasm. Both of which use rotary encoders, neither of which were mentioned above. Has anyone checked into these games yet? I'm hoping they take a straight quad. input and work with each others control panels. Cheers, Mark From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 15:10:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708042211.SAA26524@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: fishd Subject: Cine' Exorcisor & SC_FREE Star Trek Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi Folks, A couple of things... First, the SC_FREE version of Star Trek was released today and can be found on TANT and union.edu (when Brian puts it up). This one has got to be one of the worst vector games, IMHO. It certainly doesn't make my top 10 list ;-). Anyway, it's there if you want it. Yawn. On a more 'up' note, Steve's Cinematronics Exorcisor showed up today (you can stop worrying Steve). There really isn't alot to it so it should be fairly easy to clone. I'll get a schematic and parts list uploaded to TANT ASAP (hopefully by the weekend), making it work may take a wee bit longer. David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.com | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 15:30:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:36:54 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >In all the recent discussions about rotary encoders, I don't think I ever >saw anyone mention Cinematronics. The reason this comes to mind now, sev- >eral weeks later, is that I just started work on connecting a Boxing Bugs >board set to my Cosmic Chasm. Both of which use rotary encoders, neither >of which were mentioned above. Ahhh! More to the list! Well, I took a look at this this last weekend (too hot to work in the garage or outside so I had to find something indoors where the AC is :-) and have the following operational: Processor: PIC 16C54 (since I had the nice Windows based simulator I had to use it... ;-) Code is currently at 134 words (of 512 total). It supports the following: Input: quadrature signal (2 lines TTL level), 2 mode select lines Output: Mode0: "raw" 8-bit count (like TRON) Mode1: "G-80" 7 bit count plus direction bit Mode2: "Omega Race/Clk&Dir" 6 bit grey-code. Also clock&direction Mode3: TBD Now then, I need a little help/advise... What four modes should I pick to support? Looks like there's some more possibilities-- Midway "Kick" four bit something or other. Anyone have a schematic? Cinematronics spinner. (That is, if it's other than quadrature) Anything else? Also, I could really use a copy of the Omega Race schematics if anyone can spare a set, or scan and post them. I need to get a board working to make sure this greycode table is right... Anyway, thanks in advance... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 15:54:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 15:59 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970805035648.0eaf97cc@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:36 PM 8/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >>In all the recent discussions about rotary encoders, I don't think I ever >>saw anyone mention Cinematronics. The reason this comes to mind now, sev- >>eral weeks later, is that I just started work on connecting a Boxing Bugs >>board set to my Cosmic Chasm. Both of which use rotary encoders, neither >>of which were mentioned above. > >Ahhh! More to the list! > >Well, I took a look at this this last weekend (too hot to work in the >garage or outside so I had to find something indoors where the AC is :-) >and have the following operational: > >Processor: PIC 16C54 (since I had the nice Windows based simulator I had >to use it... ;-) > >Code is currently at 134 words (of 512 total). It supports the following: > >Input: quadrature signal (2 lines TTL level), 2 mode select lines >Output: > Mode0: "raw" 8-bit count (like TRON) > Mode1: "G-80" 7 bit count plus direction bit > Mode2: "Omega Race/Clk&Dir" 6 bit grey-code. Also clock&direction > Mode3: TBD > >Now then, I need a little help/advise... What four modes should I pick to >support? Looks like there's some more possibilities-- > > Midway "Kick" four bit something or other. Anyone have a schematic? > Cinematronics spinner. (That is, if it's other than quadrature) The Cinematronics spinners are off the shelf shaft encoders, while I haven't looked I'm sure finding a replacement for these would be easy. They just look and feel like a standard pot. They output standard quadrature signals. I'm not sure where the decoding is done on Cosmic Chasm, but it's not done inside the spin knob. On Boxing Bugs it's done on the Sound Board. If you wanted to set it up so that the outputs of your PIC connected directly to the inputs of the C-CPU, you'd need to convert to an 8 bit absolute count (0-255 with wrap around) and you would have to have an extra inputs that latched the current value (just keep it from being updated) and allowed the cpu to select the upper or lower nibble of the count, since it only reads 4 bits of the count at a time. The Boxing Bugs sound board schematic is now on www.spies.com. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 15:58:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Message-Id: <199708042259.SAA06702@po_box.cig.mot.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:58:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: More Rotary Encoders" (Aug 4, 3:36pm) References: <199708042230.SAA04486@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 4, 3:36pm, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders > > Input: quadrature signal (2 lines TTL level), 2 mode select lines > Output: > Mode0: "raw" 8-bit count (like TRON) > Mode1: "G-80" 7 bit count plus direction bit > Mode2: "Omega Race/Clk&Dir" 6 bit grey-code. Also clock&direction > Mode3: TBD > > Now then, I need a little help/advise... What four modes should I pick to > support? Looks like there's some more possibilities-- > > Midway "Kick" four bit something or other. Anyone have a schematic? Offhand, I would guess that Kick is just a subset of TRON. I think at one time I had a TRON control panel hooked up to my Kick cabinet. You have to spin the encoder so fast to move it was nearly impossible to play. In fact now that I think about it, I think the interface board was the same for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 16:45:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:45:19 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com i'll scan them in tonight. they are the usual weird extra long drawings so i'll have to scan them in pieces. if you had any extra space in the encoder, it might be interesting to have a mode where the spinner could emulate rotl and rotr buttons so if you didn't want to have them on the panel, you could still play emiminator and space fury with a spinner knob... From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 17:18:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: omega race drawings Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:16:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day, I do like this idea....Rick Schieve and I always wondered if we could replace the right, left, forward and thrust controls of Rip Off with something that wouldn't give us carp tunnel syndrome during our hour long games. In this case replacing the buttons with a spinner isn't achieving these ends, but I still like the idea for a univeral control panel! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Monday, August 04, 1997 6:45 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: omega race drawings > > >i'll scan them in tonight. they are the usual weird extra long drawings >so i'll have to scan them in pieces. > >if you had any extra space in the encoder, it might be interesting to >have a mode where the spinner could emulate rotl and rotr buttons so >if you didn't want to have them on the panel, you could still play >emiminator and space fury with a spinner knob... > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 17:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 17:25 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970805052310.32c7717e@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:45 PM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote: > >i'll scan them in tonight. they are the usual weird extra long drawings >so i'll have to scan them in pieces. > >if you had any extra space in the encoder, it might be interesting to >have a mode where the spinner could emulate rotl and rotr buttons so >if you didn't want to have them on the panel, you could still play >emiminator and space fury with a spinner knob... It's much easier to write a program that allows rotl and rotr buttons look like a spin knob than it is to have a spin knob look like rotl and rotr buttons. Without feed back from the game as to how far the object has spun, there is no way to keep the spin knob and object in sync. The spin knob can be spun at any speed, the rotl/rotr buttons move the object at a set speed so you can end up with buffered "rotates" where you move the knob back and forth fast, then watch as the game object catches up with your moves. One alternative is a "move while you spin" algorithm which gets pretty old as you have to keep the spin knob constantly spinning to keep the object moving. Another alternative is a joystick mode, where anything past a certain distance cause a move until you back up to center, the problem with this is accidently letting go of the spin knob and losing center. It all depends on how you write the program, but at it's best it's still pretty clumsy -- and it never does have the feel of the original game. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 17:37:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with a little dead-band near the center, actually.... that reminds me, I wanted to have this as a mode for the spinner too, so you wouldn't have to spin the bloody knob so hard in Major Havoc! no spin no spin rotl rotr slow left slow right fast left fast right so... you don't actually SPIN the spinner, you just rotate farther left or right for more pulses/sec. this is hard to do with a dumb quadrature decoder, but should be straightforward if there is a uP there to remember how fast you're spinning! the little drawing above right is actually a continuously variable speed, not just 'slow' and 'fast' From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 18:08:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 18:13 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970805061111.0ebfbcaa@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:37 PM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with >a little dead-band near the center, Yeah that was the third example I gave. If you ever let go of the knob and lose the center you could easily die a few times trying to find it again. This can really be a pain when switching from player 1 to player 2, since the PIC has no idea what the game is doing, it can't just "re-center" the knob before each turn, and you'll have to carefully hold the knob at center while the next player positions himself (or a little "Ooops! I slipped! Sorry!" when your losing!). >actually.... that reminds me, I wanted to have this as a mode for the >spinner too, so you wouldn't have to spin the bloody knob so hard in >Major Havoc! > > > no spin no spin >rotl rotr slow left slow right > fast left fast right > > >so... you don't actually SPIN the spinner, you just rotate farther left >or right for more pulses/sec. How about acceleration control like they do in mouse drivers? That way your faster spins would be multiplied in speed, but you wouldn't have to worry about losing center. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 4 20:32:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:32:27 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: omega race schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com the schematics for the main and sound boards are up on spies. I converted the large main drawing into three smaller drawings From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 09:48:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:54:27 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with >a little dead-band near the center, Right, I was thinking of treating it like a "broken" analog joystick pot that doesn't auto-center. (Turning a little to the left outputs some pulse train on the "left" button line, turning more to the left pulls the line low constantly-- remember you can't "turn" faster than holding the button down all the time.) Zonn's right about losing the wheel position though. How about just going on the direction of the knob, but with some hysteresis? Something like: If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" left in a row, "push" left button and latch If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" right in a row, "push" right button and latch If the knob ever moves less than 6 but more than 3 "ticks" in the opposite direction (from the current "latched" direction), unlatch current direction. So, if you want to turn right, turn the knob right. You can spin it right all day long and it doesn't matter. You can give it 1/8th turn right and leave it and it still turns right. If you turn it a "little" left it still turns right, if you turn is a "little more" left it stops turning, if you turn it "yet a little more" left it starts turning left. Does that make sense? Basically try to tune it so that the change of direction decides the right/center/left choice, but build in some "jitter" factor so a little twitch the wrong way doesn't turn the ship accidentally, but a little turn the other direction *does* turn the ship... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 10:19:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: omega race drawings Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:17:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, I have an interesting proposition for a spin knob! Let's start with a Discs of Tron "up and down" spin knob. If you don't push the knob up or down, then it acts just like a spin knob....you have to keep spinning it to keep turning. If you push down while turning the spin knob, then it acts just like Clay and Al have been describing. To be safe, I'd suggest that pulling up on the knob stops all activity. What do you think? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - If this idea takes off, I'm going to be really annoyed that both of my Discs of Tron control panels went to Mark J in the trade for that wonderful 4 player Eliminator cocktail. >---------- >From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:clay@supra.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 12:54 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: omega race drawings > >>actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with >>a little dead-band near the center, > >Right, I was thinking of treating it like a "broken" analog joystick pot >that doesn't auto-center. (Turning a little to the left outputs some pulse >train on the "left" button line, turning more to the left pulls the line >low constantly-- remember you can't "turn" faster than holding the button >down all the time.) > >Zonn's right about losing the wheel position though. How about just going >on the direction of the knob, but with some hysteresis? Something like: > >If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" left in a row, "push" left button and latch >If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" right in a row, "push" right button and >latch >If the knob ever moves less than 6 but more than 3 "ticks" in the opposite >direction (from the current "latched" direction), unlatch current >direction. > >So, if you want to turn right, turn the knob right. You can spin it right >all day long and it doesn't matter. You can give it 1/8th turn right and >leave it and it still turns right. If you turn it a "little" left it still >turns right, if you turn is a "little more" left it stops turning, if you >turn it "yet a little more" left it starts turning left. > >Does that make sense? Basically try to tune it so that the change of >direction decides the right/center/left choice, but build in some "jitter" >factor so a little twitch the wrong way doesn't turn the ship accidentally, >but a little turn the other direction *does* turn the ship... > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >_______________________________________________________________________ >/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 10:36:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Lotus-Fromdomain: SYBASENOTES From: "Paul Tonizzo" To: sso@dsc.com Cc: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Message-Id: <852564EA.006039C5.00@concordnotes1.powersoft.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:34:27 -0400 Subject: Re: RE: omega race drawings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In response to: G'day folks, I have an interesting proposition for a spin knob! Let's start with a Discs of Tron "up and down" spin knob. If you don't push the knob up or down, then it acts just like a spin knob....you have to keep spinning it to keep turning. If you push down while turning the spin knob, then it acts just like Clay and Al have been describing. To be safe, I'd suggest that pulling up on the knob stops all activity. What do you think? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - If this idea takes off, I'm going to be really annoyed that both of my Discs of Tron control panels went to Mark J in the trade for that wonderful 4 player Eliminator cocktail. >---------- >From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:clay@supra.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 12:54 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: omega race drawings > >>actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with >>a little dead-band near the center, > >Right, I was thinking of treating it like a "broken" analog joystick pot >that doesn't auto-center. (Turning a little to the left outputs some pulse >train on the "left" button line, turning more to the left pulls the line >low constantly-- remember you can't "turn" faster than holding the button >down all the time.) > >Zonn's right about losing the wheel position though. How about just going >on the direction of the knob, but with some hysteresis? Something like: > >If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" left in a row, "push" left button and latch >If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" right in a row, "push" right button and >latch >If the knob ever moves less than 6 but more than 3 "ticks" in the opposite >direction (from the current "latched" direction), unlatch current >direction. > >So, if you want to turn right, turn the knob right. You can spin it right >all day long and it doesn't matter. You can give it 1/8th turn right and >leave it and it still turns right. If you turn it a "little" left it still >turns right, if you turn is a "little more" left it stops turning, if you >turn it "yet a little more" left it starts turning left. > >Does that make sense? Basically try to tune it so that the change of >direction decides the right/center/left choice, but build in some "jitter" >factor so a little twitch the wrong way doesn't turn the ship accidentally, >but a little turn the other direction *does* turn the ship... > >-Clay > >Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >_______________________________________________________________________ >/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 10:51:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:57:48 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Offhand, I would guess that Kick is just a subset of TRON. I think at one time >I had a TRON control panel hooked up to my Kick cabinet. You have to spin the >encoder so fast to move it was nearly impossible to play. In fact now that I >think about it, I think the interface board was the same for each. That could be. I think the Kick control I saw was a 74ls191 or a 74ls193 on the board. Maybe with a comparator and some other crap. Definately not the 74ls491 that the TRON spinner used though. BUT... I bet that if you use the upper four bits of the "raw" output at the inputs to Kick the ratio is about right... (Of course you could use the lower 4 bits and have hyper-speed too... ;-) I wonder if I have a working Kick boardset... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:03:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: More Rotary Encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com i have the kickman schematic here... i'll scan in the encoder drawing From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:05:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 11:10 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970805230810.1237260e@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:17 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >I have an interesting proposition for a spin knob! > >Let's start with a Discs of Tron "up and down" spin knob. If you don't >push the knob up or down, then it acts just like a spin knob....you have >to keep spinning it to keep turning. If you push down while turning the >spin knob, then it acts just like Clay and Al have been describing. To >be safe, I'd suggest that pulling up on the knob stops all activity. >What do you think? > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > >ps - If this idea takes off, I'm going to be really annoyed that both of >my Discs of Tron control panels went to Mark J in the trade for that >wonderful 4 player Eliminator cocktail. Clay's last idea sounds like the most do-able to me, though I can see that because of the free spin past the limits being ignored you can get yourself to a point where you hand is all tweaked in one direction that is now considered the new center. But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses using while you guys fiddle around with trying to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in Eliminator! Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? :^> ? -Zonn (the confused) >>---------- >>From: Clay Cowgill[SMTP:clay@supra.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 12:54 PM >>To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >>Subject: Re: omega race drawings >> >>>actually, what I was thinking of was a zero center sort of thing, with >>>a little dead-band near the center, >> >>Right, I was thinking of treating it like a "broken" analog joystick pot >>that doesn't auto-center. (Turning a little to the left outputs some pulse >>train on the "left" button line, turning more to the left pulls the line >>low constantly-- remember you can't "turn" faster than holding the button >>down all the time.) >> >>Zonn's right about losing the wheel position though. How about just going >>on the direction of the knob, but with some hysteresis? Something like: >> >>If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" left in a row, "push" left button and latch >>If the knob ever moves 6 "ticks" right in a row, "push" right button and >>latch >>If the knob ever moves less than 6 but more than 3 "ticks" in the opposite >>direction (from the current "latched" direction), unlatch current >>direction. >> >>So, if you want to turn right, turn the knob right. You can spin it right >>all day long and it doesn't matter. You can give it 1/8th turn right and >>leave it and it still turns right. If you turn it a "little" left it still >>turns right, if you turn is a "little more" left it stops turning, if you >>turn it "yet a little more" left it starts turning left. >> >>Does that make sense? Basically try to tune it so that the change of >>direction decides the right/center/left choice, but build in some "jitter" >>factor so a little twitch the wrong way doesn't turn the ship accidentally, >>but a little turn the other direction *does* turn the ship... >> >>-Clay >> >>Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager >>_______________________________________________________________________ >>/\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com >>\/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ >> >> >> > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:14:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:21:04 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: omega race schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >the schematics for the main and sound boards are up on spies. >I converted the large main drawing into three smaller drawings Whoops, Looks like the links for the Main Board schematics are broken... The Sound board seems OK. Thanks Al! -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:19:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:19:20 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: encoder schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com ..the schematic is up on spies now. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:22:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com i'll fix the links BTW, you can always use FTP if the links don't work (and you might find some things there that I don't have links set up for... :-) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:27:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: omega race drawings Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:25:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 1:10 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: RE: omega race drawings > >Clay's last idea sounds like the most do-able to me, though I can see that >because of the free spin past the limits being ignored you can get yourself >to a point where you hand is all tweaked in one direction that is now >considered the new center. > >But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses >using while you guys fiddle around with trying >to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying >to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in >Eliminator! Ha! With my new tri directional controller (plus turbo thruster button), I'll be flying circles around you!! > >Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade >buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? >:^> ? Look, Zonn, haven't you figured out that this has nothing to do with money, but instead has become a quest for the "ultimate" control! 8^) 8^) 8^) Someone who's willing to spend $1K on the universal 33" XY monitor should understand this! >-Zonn (the confused) > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:40:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Look, Zonn, haven't you figured out that this has nothing to do with money, but instead has become a quest for the "ultimate" control! 8^) 8^) 8^) Someone who's willing to spend $1K on the universal 33" XY monitor should understand this! ..sticking my big nose into this again wouldn't a 4 way joystick with a fire button be the fastest control mechanism (left,right, pull back for thrust, and a fire button) ? ..guess it's actually 5 way counting left-thrust and right-thrust This might start a whole thread just on "best controls" though.. I noticed that it didn't take very much playing of the 4 player eliminator in San Diego before my less used hand (left, since i'm right handed) started to hurt because of having to stretch my 2nd and 4th fingers to reach the rotate buttons, and the force required to press the buttons. but, getting back to reality, yes, putting two rotate buttons on the panel is more practical. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:41:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:48:07 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn writes: >Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade >buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? >:^> ? Ok, ok, we get the two buttons and just *glue* them to the spinner knob! Then we devise a wireless transmitter that mounts inside one of the buttons to send the button state to the main receiver board! It's so obvious! ;-) Seriously though, I agree with Zonn, the spinner->button convertor is an interesting idea, but I think the converse would be much more useful for most people. (You know, I could do that easily as "mode4" in the PIC. Use the two quadrature input lines as "rotate left" and "rotate right" input lines. Then output the appropriate pattern as a "virtual" spinner. I could probably use another couple lines of I/O though so select more options...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:44:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 05 Aug 1997 14:42 EDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: What To Pick For The PIC Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "More Rotary Encoders", clay@supra.com writes: > >In all the recent discussions about rotary encoders, I don't think I ever > >saw anyone mention Cinematronics. The reason this comes to mind now, sev- > >eral weeks later, is that I just started work on connecting a Boxing Bugs > >board set to my Cosmic Chasm. Both of which use rotary encoders, neither > >of which were mentioned above. > > Ahhh! More to the list! > Now then, I need a little help/advise... What four modes should I pick to > support? Looks like there's some more possibilities-- > It seems as if there are more than four different encoding schemes that we know of thus far. Due to I/O and memory constraints, we seem to be limit- ed to about four encoder variants in a PIC. I don't know all that much a- bout the PIC, but can you picture the following type of configuration; if the PIC were to be used as a platform (albeit a platform the size of a pin head), where you could bind in the specific variants required in your par- ticular application. This way, when you find yourself with that "new" game board sitting on the bench, you just slam in the variant you need and away you go. No worrying about not having the right interface. Also, anyone who finds a new encoding scheme only has to write the applica- tion portion of the interface, but won't have to reinvent the more common, low level stuff. FWIW, I'd be interested in seeing the Bugs variant. This way the encoding hardware won't have to be added to the new digital sound board to play the game. Cheers, Mark From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:45:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 11:51 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970805234815.125f0588@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:25 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >>---------- >>From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 1:10 PM >>To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >>Subject: RE: omega race drawings >> >>Clay's last idea sounds like the most do-able to me, though I can see that >>because of the free spin past the limits being ignored you can get yourself >>to a point where you hand is all tweaked in one direction that is now >>considered the new center. >> >>But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses >>using while you guys fiddle around with trying >>to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying >>to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in >>Eliminator! > >Ha! With my new tri directional controller (plus turbo thruster >button), I'll be flying circles around you!! >> >>Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade >>buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? >>:^> ? > >Look, Zonn, haven't you figured out that this has nothing to do with >money, but instead has become a quest for the "ultimate" control! 8^) >8^) 8^) Someone who's willing to spend $1K on the universal 33" XY >monitor should understand this! Only $1k? Where do I find one!! ;^) I understand your quest, and that's my point. Your ultimate control sounds to me like a dog when it comes to playing a game that uses Left Right Thrust Fire. Have you seen the Centipedes around that have been JAMMAtized into using a joystick instead of a track ball? That to me is a good analogy, the games playable, but *nothing* like the trackball version, but it does use a more universal control panel. Those subtle little taps on a key to change your flying angle "just a bit" to be able to shoot around the "bagel" are not going to be doable on a spin knob. I'll bet a $100 that no one will be able to create a "Spin knob to Left/Right" convertor algorithm that would allow anyone to win my brother in Eliminator (He's much better than me. Hey, you can win me by just sitting on the control panel, I lose in single player Space War! ;^) -Zonn (the hustler) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 11:52:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:51:46 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: which encoder wheel? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com One thing I've forgotten to ask in all of this is WHICH encoder wheel would be used for the input device? I would guess the Tempest wheel is the most common and, like the Sega wheel, it has a nice heavy flywheel attached. I have seen (and picked up) some HP encoder assemblies that are the size of a panel pot and have quadrature outputs. These don't have flywheels, but would be handy for a bench setup, or for putting into a little box for bench use. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 13:27:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:27:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:33:55 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >One thing I've forgotten to ask in all of this is WHICH >encoder wheel would be used for the input device? I would >guess the Tempest wheel is the most common and, like >the Sega wheel, it has a nice heavy flywheel attached. > >I have seen (and picked up) some HP encoder assemblies >that are the size of a panel pot and have quadrature >outputs. These don't have flywheels, but would be handy >for a bench setup, or for putting into a little box for >bench use. Good point. I haven't counted up all the teeth on the various wheels out there, but the one I'm using for testing is one of the Clarostat Optical Encoder assemblies with 128 pulses per revolution. (I think that's probably quite high compared to Tempest and certainly higher than the Sega stuff.) It's easy (relatively speaking) to scale the number of pulses down, but it's a pain to make more "virtual" pulses out of what you get in. (You need to trigger on rising and falling edges in that case and it's not something I want to figure out... ;-) A lot of Atari stuff seems to use a 64 position encoder assembly. Sega stuff looks clost to that amount as well. Kick was something really coarse-- maybe 16 or 32 teeth? I don't know about the Atari whirly-gig's (like Blasteroids) I think they're close to the spinner on Tempest. Major Havoc I'm not sure about for the "real" controller-- I have a (the?) prototype Major Havoc roller controller that I can count out I suppose. IMHO, the Tempest spinner is the best of the lot... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 13:51:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:51:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708052051.PAA24673@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 15:53:19 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > A lot of Atari stuff seems to use a 64 position encoder assembly. Sega > stuff looks clost to that amount as well. Kick was something really > coarse-- maybe 16 or 32 teeth? I don't know about the Atari whirly-gig's > (like Blasteroids) I think they're close to the spinner on Tempest. Major > Havoc I'm not sure about for the "real" controller-- I have a (the?) > prototype Major Havoc roller controller that I can count out I suppose. Blasteroids is the same as Tempest. The "feel" seems to be about the same as the Atari trakballs, although they translate differently (different motions). For the vast bulk of the planet, the "original" MH interface is a Tempest encoder (MANY more conversions that dedicated units out there...I know I've never seen a dedicated MH) > IMHO, the Tempest spinner is the best of the lot... I agree 100%. They are also the easiest to find (important if you want wide impact) Of course, I'm going after the best of all worlds. I am building control panel modules with controls from the original Discs of Tron and Omega Race control panels, and have plenty of Tempest wheels for other games (Arkanoid, etc.) Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 14:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 14:26 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970806022313.10ef2368@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:33 PM 8/5/97 -0800, you wrote: >>One thing I've forgotten to ask in all of this is WHICH >>encoder wheel would be used for the input device? I would >>guess the Tempest wheel is the most common and, like >>the Sega wheel, it has a nice heavy flywheel attached. >> >>I have seen (and picked up) some HP encoder assemblies >>that are the size of a panel pot and have quadrature >>outputs. These don't have flywheels, but would be handy >>for a bench setup, or for putting into a little box for >>bench use. > >Good point. I haven't counted up all the teeth on the various wheels out >there, but the one I'm using for testing is one of the Clarostat Optical >Encoder assemblies with 128 pulses per revolution. (I think that's >probably quite high compared to Tempest and certainly higher than the Sega >stuff.) It's easy (relatively speaking) to scale the number of pulses >down, but it's a pain to make more "virtual" pulses out of what you get in. >(You need to trigger on rising and falling edges in that case and it's not >something I want to figure out... ;-) > >A lot of Atari stuff seems to use a 64 position encoder assembly. Sega >stuff looks clost to that amount as well. Kick was something really >coarse-- maybe 16 or 32 teeth? I don't know about the Atari whirly-gig's >(like Blasteroids) I think they're close to the spinner on Tempest. Major >Havoc I'm not sure about for the "real" controller-- I have a (the?) >prototype Major Havoc roller controller that I can count out I suppose. > >IMHO, the Tempest spinner is the best of the lot... I've counted those wholes in Tempest and Sega to compare the two. Sega had a nice even 64 which is cool because in quadrature it gives you 256 positions per revolution, which is easy to write code for. Atari's wasn't 64 but some bizarre number like 72 or something, I just remember it being off. I personally also like the feel of the Tempest spinner best. When I first spun Sega I thought "Cool, nice and weighted" but when heavily into game play try giving the Sega control a good spin, then stop it real fast. Yikes! Spin knob burn! I don't think the Sega games need the high spins to play and the weight feels cool there, but Tempest needs some good high speed spins with fast stops - so for universal I'd go with Atari -- IMHO. I haven't counted the pulses in Boxing Bugs and Cosmic Chasm, but I have taken apart the controllers and the resolutions quite high, more like your Clarostat, it looks like somewhere between 100 and 200 pulses per rev. (It might actually be the same part, it's some off the shelve shaft encoder, it wasn't made by Cinematronics.) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 5 20:51:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970805205200.0056bbc0@ng.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@ng.netgate.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 20:52:00 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >One thing I've forgotten to ask in all of this is WHICH >encoder wheel would be used for the input device? I would >guess the Tempest wheel is the most common and, like >the Sega wheel, it has a nice heavy flywheel attached. I agree. It doesn't sound like getting pulses per revolution exact is necessary since you can't get a known resting position with an encoder and it all ends up being relative anyway... I wonder what encoder Mad Planets uses. I should go check...the knob is identical to Tempest but I don't know about the internals. Another option that might be useful is a bit on the interface to flip the direction of the quadrature. I found that more recent encoder wheels, while outwardly identical and mechanically similar to Tempest, actually reverse the two wires coming from the encoder, causing your player to spin backwards. Just a thought. // grigs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 06:49:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 06:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Message-Id: <199708061349.JAA28549@po_box.cig.mot.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:48:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Zonn "RE: omega race drawings" (Aug 5, 11:10am) References: <199708051806.OAA18763@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 5, 11:10am, Zonn wrote: > Subject: RE: omega race drawings > At 10:17 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote: > >G'day folks, > > > >I have an interesting proposition for a spin knob! > > > >Let's start with a Discs of Tron "up and down" spin knob. If you don't > >push the knob up or down, then it acts just like a spin knob....you have > >to keep spinning it to keep turning. If you push down while turning the > >spin knob, then it acts just like Clay and Al have been describing. To > >be safe, I'd suggest that pulling up on the knob stops all activity. > >What do you think? > > > > Steven S Ozdemir > > sso@dsc.com > > > >ps - If this idea takes off, I'm going to be really annoyed that both of > >my Discs of Tron control panels went to Mark J in the trade for that > >wonderful 4 player Eliminator cocktail. > > Clay's last idea sounds like the most do-able to me, though I can see that > because of the free spin past the limits being ignored you can get yourself > to a point where you hand is all tweaked in one direction that is now > considered the new center. > > But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses > using while you guys fiddle around with trying > to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying > to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in > Eliminator! > > Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade > buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? > :^> ? > > -Zonn (the confused) Way to go Zonn! Throw more hardware at the problem, not this crazy "emulation" stuff! Keep it simple. - Mark "has all the DoT encoder wheels he needs" Jenison From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 09:44:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708061647.MAA06983@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: omega race drawings To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:47:12 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199708061349.JAA28549@po_box.cig.mot.com> from "Mark Jenison" at Aug 6, 97 08:48:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > > But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses > > using while you guys fiddle around with trying > > to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying > > to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in > > Eliminator! > > > > Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade > > buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? You've got a good point Zonn. But have you ever seen a cabinet that's been wired with controls for a bunch of different things? They tend to get ugly. I find the idea of a spinner, thrust and fire very appealing unless it turns out hard to play (which you point out may well be the case :-) Anyway, minimal controls is very nice looking if it works. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 10:04:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:10:40 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >You've got a good point Zonn. But have you ever seen a cabinet that's been >wired with controls for a bunch of different things? They tend to get ugly. >I find the idea of a spinner, thrust and fire very appealing unless it >turns out hard to play (which you point out may well be the case :-) >Anyway, minimal controls is very nice looking if it works. Here's a thought. Last week I finished up a hacking session (that I even got *paid* for!) that consisted of modifying Astro Blaster (on the G-80 platform) so that the fuel guage doesn't go down as fast and the laser cools off faster. Given Al's ability to view G-80 program RAM in emulation, I bet it wouldn't take him long to tell me where in RAM the ship rotation values are stored for Space Fury and Eliminator... A little disassembly and some tinkering later I bet it wouldn't be very hard to make Space Fury (for sure) and Eliminator (maybe a little harder) *support* a spinner knob for positioning a ship... ;-) (Sure, it's messing with a "classic", but from past experience Astro Blaster is a lot more fun without the damn fuel guage running out on you no matter what you do in Sector 4...) I think Space Fury with the spinner would be neato. (I was thinking of trying the same thing with Asteroids too.) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 10:15:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Message-Id: <199708061715.NAA23572@po_box.cig.mot.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:14:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: omega race drawings" (Aug 6, 10:10am) References: <199708061705.NAA22570@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 6, 10:10am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: omega race drawings > > Given Al's ability to view G-80 program RAM in emulation, I bet it wouldn't > take him long to tell me where in RAM the ship rotation values are stored > for Space Fury and Eliminator... A little disassembly and some tinkering > later I bet it wouldn't be very hard to make Space Fury (for sure) and > Eliminator (maybe a little harder) *support* a spinner knob for positioning > a ship... ;-) > > (Sure, it's messing with a "classic", but from past experience Astro > Blaster is a lot more fun without the damn fuel guage running out on you no > matter what you do in Sector 4...) I think Space Fury with the spinner > would be neato. > > (I was thinking of trying the same thing with Asteroids too.) The thing to remember is that in Eliminator (and RipOff) that when you are thrusting, you are not "rotating", you are TURNING. This is unlike Zektor, Asteroids, Space Fury, etc where the ability to rotate is not effected by the momentum of the ship, or whether thrust is on or off. I don't know how that effects your design, but I thought I'd mention it. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 10:22:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708061647.MAA06983@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: omega race drawings To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:47:12 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199708061349.JAA28549@po_box.cig.mot.com> from "Mark Jenison" at Aug 6, 97 08:48:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > > But even if you get something working I'll bet I can kick all your asses > > using while you guys fiddle around with trying > > to get a spin knob to emulate subtle taps on the direction keys, when trying > > to regain control after being blasted towards the "Bagel of Death" in > > Eliminator! > > > > Just out of curiosity isn't it cheaper and easier to wire up 2 $0.50 arcade > > buttons than to find and program a Discs of Tron spin knob to act like them? You've got a good point Zonn. But have you ever seen a cabinet that's been wired with controls for a bunch of different things? They tend to get ugly. I find the idea of a spinner, thrust and fire very appealing unless it turns out hard to play (which you point out may well be the case :-) Anyway, minimal controls is very nice looking if it works. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 10:27:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I have an Asteroids disassembly, so I can tell you where the ship position is stored.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 10:58:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:57:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Asteroids Schematic ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com While I now have my Asteroids Cocktail working, I have a spare non-working board I would like to fix. I didn't see Asteroids schematics on jrok's page. If someone could point me to them, or has them they could scan, I'ld apprecaite it. I'm guessing it's something simple. The screen starts out as a jumble of vectors in the lower left corner, and expands to full size as the board heats up. The test pattern, however, does not make sharp corners on the left/right sides. This leads me to suspect a transistor in the video driver. On the other hand, it looks like someone has already tried (and failed) to fix this board. One of the pair of 470uf 25v caps in the video circuit has already been replaced -- with a 100v that has been shoehorned in. And a ROM is missing -- but one thing at a time. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:00:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:00:51 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Asteroids Schematic ? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com The older Atari vector schematics are no fun to scan in. They were on 24 * 36" paper. I'll see if I can at least get the DVG section finished in the next day or so. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:05:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:05:19 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: asteroids schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com in the mean time, you might want to take a look at the Omega Race schematic at www.spies.com/arcade/simulation/schematics. the omega race vector generator is almost identical to the atari DVG. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:07:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:13:57 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I have an Asteroids disassembly, so I can tell you where the ship >position is stored.. Hee-hee. Cool. Give me an address and I'll see what I can do. :-) (Any chance you can do the same with Space Fury? I'm all setup to code on the G-80, so that's easier to play with...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:12:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:12:26 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com shouldn't be too difficult. I found the location that maintains the number of credits left in Zektor, which is how I got the screen shots of all of the levels (i'm not very good at playing games). after zonn mentioned the difference between ripoff/eliminator and all the other rotl/r games probably explains why i'm even worse at those two than the others... i've never been able to get the hang of turning on those games! From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:20:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: omega race drawings Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:18:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, Doug Jeffery's has done extensive work on disassembling Asteroids. I strongly suggest that you discuss the project with him to avoid redoing the same work! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 12:27 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: omega race drawings > >I have an Asteroids disassembly, so I can tell you where the ship >position is stored.. > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:24:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:24:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Asteroids Schematic ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > The older Atari vector schematics are no fun to scan in. They were > on 24 * 36" paper. I'll see if I can at least get the DVG section > finished in the next day or so. Now I see why it hasn't been scanned already. Thanks ! -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 11:56:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Message-Id: <199708061715.NAA23572@po_box.cig.mot.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:14:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: omega race drawings" (Aug 6, 10:10am) References: <199708061705.NAA22570@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: omega race drawings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 6, 10:10am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: omega race drawings > > Given Al's ability to view G-80 program RAM in emulation, I bet it wouldn't > take him long to tell me where in RAM the ship rotation values are stored > for Space Fury and Eliminator... A little disassembly and some tinkering > later I bet it wouldn't be very hard to make Space Fury (for sure) and > Eliminator (maybe a little harder) *support* a spinner knob for positioning > a ship... ;-) > > (Sure, it's messing with a "classic", but from past experience Astro > Blaster is a lot more fun without the damn fuel guage running out on you no > matter what you do in Sector 4...) I think Space Fury with the spinner > would be neato. > > (I was thinking of trying the same thing with Asteroids too.) The thing to remember is that in Eliminator (and RipOff) that when you are thrusting, you are not "rotating", you are TURNING. This is unlike Zektor, Asteroids, Space Fury, etc where the ability to rotate is not effected by the momentum of the ship, or whether thrust is on or off. I don't know how that effects your design, but I thought I'd mention it. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 12:07:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:10:40 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: omega race drawings Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >You've got a good point Zonn. But have you ever seen a cabinet that's been >wired with controls for a bunch of different things? They tend to get ugly. >I find the idea of a spinner, thrust and fire very appealing unless it >turns out hard to play (which you point out may well be the case :-) >Anyway, minimal controls is very nice looking if it works. Here's a thought. Last week I finished up a hacking session (that I even got *paid* for!) that consisted of modifying Astro Blaster (on the G-80 platform) so that the fuel guage doesn't go down as fast and the laser cools off faster. Given Al's ability to view G-80 program RAM in emulation, I bet it wouldn't take him long to tell me where in RAM the ship rotation values are stored for Space Fury and Eliminator... A little disassembly and some tinkering later I bet it wouldn't be very hard to make Space Fury (for sure) and Eliminator (maybe a little harder) *support* a spinner knob for positioning a ship... ;-) (Sure, it's messing with a "classic", but from past experience Astro Blaster is a lot more fun without the damn fuel guage running out on you no matter what you do in Sector 4...) I think Space Fury with the spinner would be neato. (I was thinking of trying the same thing with Asteroids too.) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 14:26:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:25:29 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I just got some mail from Frazee saying that he has a bunch of G-05's that aren't too burned in. Do you remember looking at any of these when you were up there Joe? I've started working on a little cine -> G05 adapter board using modern (.ie still in production) parts, duplicating the DAC/switch/Filter of the Cine monitor and thought it might be worth picking up a couple if they were cheap enough, and weren't toast. On a somewhat related note, it looks like the LF13201 switches used in the AVG are out of production now, along with the LF13331's used in the Cine, so folks might want to start watching for old stock in surplus places.. If someone has found plug-in replacement, it would be nice to know about it. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 14:37:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:43:49 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I just got some mail from Frazee saying that he has a bunch of G-05's that >aren't too burned in. Do you remember looking at any of these when you were >up there Joe? I've started working on a little cine -> G05 adapter board >using modern (.ie still in production) parts, duplicating the DAC/switch/Filter >of the Cine monitor and thought it might be worth picking up a couple if >they were cheap enough, and weren't toast. The ones I saw looked to be in pretty good shape. I should have loaded up on stuff when I was there (we were already moving a remote office back here by truck in the first place) but getting the stuff from KC to Lexington, MO with my rented Neon wasn't the easiest thing in the world... >On a somewhat related note, it looks like the LF13201 switches used in the AVG >are out of production now, along with the LF13331's used in the Cine, so folks >might want to start watching for old stock in surplus places.. Yep. Jameco has had them on closeout for a while now. (the 13201's anyway) I think I bought about half their stock on and off over the last couple months. (I order a couple dozen every time I order something else. :-) Last I checked they were down to about 100 pieces. Cheap though-- $.89 each. The 13201's should work in place of 13331's with the addition of an inverter on some of the control lines... >If someone has found plug-in replacement, it would be nice to know about it. Maxim makes some switches that look like candidates, but I don't think they're pinout compatible. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 14:49:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 14:54 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807025132.7087f1d4@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:25 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I just got some mail from Frazee saying that he has a bunch of G-05's that >aren't too burned in. Do you remember looking at any of these when you were >up there Joe? I've started working on a little cine -> G05 adapter board >using modern (.ie still in production) parts, duplicating the DAC/switch/Filter >of the Cine monitor and thought it might be worth picking up a couple if >they were cheap enough, and weren't toast. > >On a somewhat related note, it looks like the LF13201 switches used in the AVG >are out of production now, along with the LF13331's used in the Cine, so folks >might want to start watching for old stock in surplus places.. Those things (the LF13331's) are on the top of my "Most likely to die" list. The last time I looked Digikey claimed to have 600+ instock, I bought 10 so make that 590+. The're $5.35 a piece but if you have as many of these monitors as I do it's not so bad of an insurance policy. >If someone has found plug-in replacement, it would be nice to know about it. Cinematronics did have a replacement for this part since even at the time of manufactoring they were hard to come by. It required a daughter board, but according to a tech "he thinks" it was to drop some voltages, and change pinouts. None of this does anyone any good just yet, because I can't remember the name of the part. (I can get the name.) Either way I saw that there is a description of the circuit on that StarTech(or something) CD they want $300 or $400 dollars for... All said and done if you're re-designing the board this should be an easy part to replace, (I wouldn't use either of the above) it just needs to switch positive and negative voltages. The current handling is not great, and can easily be calculated (I would if I had a schematic here in front of me). -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 14:59:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:58:53 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn said: All said and done if you're re-designing the board this should be an easy part to replace, (I wouldn't use either of the above) it just needs to switch positive and negative voltages. The current handling is not great, and can easily be calculated (I would if I had a schematic here in front of me). ..actually, I had meant to ask about this. The deflection voltages are bipolar with the center of the screen at 0V,0V ? As long as I was hacking, I was going to add a deflection timer too, so if the incoming X or Y values were off scale for too long, it would shut down the deflection amps and turn on a spot killer. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:00:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com ..replying to my own reply actually, a spot killer/deflection protection circuit would be handy to put in series with the existing Cine monitors. I assume that the deflection amps go full-scale positve from the DAC inputs floating? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:02:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: G-05 monitors Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:00:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, I got paper copies of the Star Tech journals from 1978 to 1981 if you'd like me to look for that circuit? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 4:54 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: G-05 monitors > >At 02:25 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >>I just got some mail from Frazee saying that he has a bunch of G-05's that >>aren't too burned in. Do you remember looking at any of these when you were >>up there Joe? I've started working on a little cine -> G05 adapter board >>using modern (.ie still in production) parts, duplicating the >>DAC/switch/Filter >>of the Cine monitor and thought it might be worth picking up a couple if >>they were cheap enough, and weren't toast. >> >>On a somewhat related note, it looks like the LF13201 switches used in the >>AVG >>are out of production now, along with the LF13331's used in the Cine, so >>folks >>might want to start watching for old stock in surplus places.. > >Those things (the LF13331's) are on the top of my "Most likely to die" list. > >The last time I looked Digikey claimed to have 600+ instock, I bought 10 so >make that 590+. The're $5.35 a piece but if you have as many of these >monitors as I do it's not so bad of an insurance policy. > >>If someone has found plug-in replacement, it would be nice to know about it. > >Cinematronics did have a replacement for this part since even at the time of >manufactoring they were hard to come by. It required a daughter board, but >according to a tech "he thinks" it was to drop some voltages, and change >pinouts. None of this does anyone any good just yet, because I can't >remember the name of the part. (I can get the name.) > >Either way I saw that there is a description of the circuit on that >StarTech(or something) CD they want $300 or $400 dollars for... > >All said and done if you're re-designing the board this should be an easy >part to replace, (I wouldn't use either of the above) it just needs to >switch positive and negative voltages. The current handling is not great, >and can easily be calculated (I would if I had a schematic here in front of >me). > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:12:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:19:21 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >All said and done if you're re-designing the board this should be an easy >part to replace, (I wouldn't use either of the above) it just needs to >switch positive and negative voltages. The current handling is not great, >and can easily be calculated (I would if I had a schematic here in front >of me). Can the 4066 or 4016 type CMOS switches handle positive and negative voltages? I remember these were in the old DVG output stages for Atari stuff, but then they switched to the 13201 during the AVG era. I never really looked into why they'd do that. (I assume the 13201 handled a wider voltage swing or something.) Anyone know the scoop on that? (The 4066 in particular seems very common...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:16:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970806151741.00af5a40@sfpo.macromedia.com> X-Sender: wsharp@sfpo.macromedia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:17:41 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Werner Sharp Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:25 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I just got some mail from Frazee saying that he has a bunch of G-05's that >aren't too burned in. Do you remember looking at any of these when you were >up there Joe? I've started working on a little cine -> G05 adapter board >using modern (.ie still in production) parts, duplicating the DAC/switch/Filter >of the Cine monitor and thought it might be worth picking up a couple if >they were cheap enough, and weren't toast. I ordered a couple of these about a month ago. Except for the incredible amount of dust on them they seem to be in really good shape. One is still buried in the copious amounts of peanuts he packed it in but the other one is virtually burn-in free. When I took it out of the box I actually thought it looked like a brand new tube. Your results may very: I bugged him about giving me good ones since he screwed up one of my other orders. I paid $40 each I think plus shipping. Werner Sharp wsharp@macromedia.com or sharp@pacbell.net Anyone have a Lunar Lander control panel FS/T? Please! Possibly FS (Oakland, CA): Omega Race (DOA), Asteroids in Lunar Lander cab, Space Duel, 2 Player Football, I, Robot (in a Firefox cab), Liberator (might be sold already) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:25:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 15:30 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807032801.70879858@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:58 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Zonn said: > >All said and done if you're re-designing the board this should be an easy >part to replace, (I wouldn't use either of the above) it just needs to >switch positive and negative voltages. The current handling is not great, >and can easily be calculated (I would if I had a schematic here in front of me). > > >..actually, I had meant to ask about this. The deflection voltages are bipolar >with the center of the screen at 0V,0V ? That's correct. I'm sure that's true of all X/Y, since 0,0 means zero current through the yokes. This is what you want when your not drawing anything. On the other hand the software sees 0,0 as the lower left hand corner of the screen so there is some offseting going on in the DACs which I've never bothered to look into that you'll need to re-create. To set the CRT trace (and therefor the value going into the X/Y deflection amps) to 0,0, the X-DAC would be loaded with 512, and the Y-DAC with 384. >As long as I was hacking, I was going to add a deflection timer too, so if the >incoming X or Y values were off scale for too long, it would shut down the >deflection amps and turn on a spot killer. The color card did a very nice job of *clipping* the X/Y signals. It took them a couple more OP-AMPs (and power transistors) to do it, but they do a *hard* clip of the signal right past the edge of the monitor. Tempest sure could use something like this in those zoom modes that fry deflection circuits! If you ever plan on building a Color Card convertor you're going to need to recreate these circuits since Boxing Bugs intentionally overdrives the X/Y signals, since it was known no damage would result, and software clipping is slow, and a pain. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:37:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 15:42 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807033943.61ef9e98@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >I got paper copies of the Star Tech journals from 1978 to 1981 if you'd >like me to look for that circuit? Very cool! I'd love to see a copy! I can't remember the year, but if you do a search on Star Tech, and Cinematronics I'll bet it pops right up. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 15:42:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 15:47 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807034426.4ad7e2f2@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >..replying to my own reply > >actually, a spot killer/deflection protection circuit would be handy to put >in series with the existing Cine monitors. I assume that the deflection amps >go full-scale positve from the DAC inputs floating? Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has probably killed many a monitor... -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 16:21:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:27:51 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I wonder what encoder Mad Planets uses. I should go check...the knob is >identical to Tempest but I don't know about the internals. *Doh!* Another one! ;-) Does the Mad Planets gizmo have a "decoder" PCB that the spinner talks to? (Or do the quadrature outputs go straight to the PCB?) >Another option that might be useful is a bit on the interface to flip the >direction of the quadrature. I found that more recent encoder wheels, >while outwardly identical and mechanically similar to Tempest, actually >reverse the two wires coming from the encoder, causing your player to spin >backwards. Yeah, I can use a couple jumpers on the board and physically "reverse" the connections. (Or, can you just invert the signals? Or maybe you invert one line? I'll have to think about that.) The other option is to go to a 28pin PIC with another 8 bits of I/O and do everything in firmware. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 17:00:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn said: Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has probably killed many a monitor... ..yup, sort of what I figured I just spent an hour or two doing analog switch research and it looks like the 4066 was designed for fairly low voltage unipolar operation. It looks like the DG411, MAX312 quad spst switch is fairly common, and it looks like if you supply +5 to pin 12 on an AVG board, a MAX312 should work as a replacement for an LF13201. I would (obviously) be interested in seeing the color converter board schematic when you have a chance to scan it in.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 17:11:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 17:16 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807051400.4ad7fae6@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Zonn said: > >Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is >dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon >as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has >probably killed many a monitor... > > >..yup, sort of what I figured > >I just spent an hour or two doing analog switch research and it looks like >the 4066 was designed for fairly low voltage unipolar operation. It looks >like the DG411, MAX312 quad spst switch is fairly common, and it looks like >if you supply +5 to pin 12 on an AVG board, a MAX312 should work as a >replacement for an LF13201. > > >I would (obviously) be interested in seeing the color converter board >schematic when you have a chance to scan it in.. Uh, so would I! Does anybody have one of these? I've never been able to find one. BTW: Let me catch up on a couple of thank-u's here... Thanks Joe, I got the Noise Generator Data Sheet! and... Thanks Kurt, for the great copy of the Barrier schematics! Your both gentlemen and scholars! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 17:19:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: G-05 monitors Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:17:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, I agree with Zonn...I don't think I've every seen schematics to the color converter board. I still remember getting Boxing Bugs schematics a couple years back and tearing through them to find the schematic for this board. I was pissed when I got to the end and didn't find them!!! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 7:16 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: G-05 monitors > >At 05:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Zonn said: >> >>Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is >>dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon >>as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has >>probably killed many a monitor... >> >> >>..yup, sort of what I figured >> >>I just spent an hour or two doing analog switch research and it looks like >>the 4066 was designed for fairly low voltage unipolar operation. It looks >>like the DG411, MAX312 quad spst switch is fairly common, and it looks like >>if you supply +5 to pin 12 on an AVG board, a MAX312 should work as a >>replacement for an LF13201. >> >> >>I would (obviously) be interested in seeing the color converter board >>schematic when you have a chance to scan it in.. > >Uh, so would I! Does anybody have one of these? I've never been able to >find one. > >BTW: Let me catch up on a couple of thank-u's here... > >Thanks Joe, I got the Noise Generator Data Sheet! and... >Thanks Kurt, for the great copy of the Barrier schematics! > >Your both gentlemen and scholars! > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 17:35:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 17:40 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807053751.0ddf18ba@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:17 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >I agree with Zonn...I don't think I've every seen schematics to the >color converter board. I still remember getting Boxing Bugs schematics >a couple years back and tearing through them to find the schematic for >this board. I was pissed when I got to the end and didn't find them!!! The real pisser as that at the beginning of the Boxing Bug manual it says that the "color conversion card is different from the system they used in the past, and that you should be very fimiliar with the schematic before attempting any repairs" and *THEN* they don't supply the schematic! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 6 19:25:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970806192619.00d00740@ng.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@ng.netgate.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:26:19 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >>I wonder what encoder Mad Planets uses. I should go check...the knob is >>identical to Tempest but I don't know about the internals. > >*Doh!* Another one! ;-) Does the Mad Planets gizmo have a "decoder" PCB >that the spinner talks to? (Or do the quadrature outputs go straight to >the PCB?) Oh, this is interesting...a never-before-seen type of spinner! It's a Wico product with a red, fully-enclosed plastic casing. In addition to the spinner shaft sticking out of the top, a small white roller sticks out the side, so if you mount it 90 degrees off you get a miniature Major Havoc-style roller controller! Did anyone else use this? I can't get into the back of the game right now but there is no PCB between the controller and the harnessing. Will check later. // grigs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 06:46:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708071349.JAA07399@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:49:19 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Aug 6, 97 04:27:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > >Another option that might be useful is a bit on the interface to flip the > >direction of the quadrature. I found that more recent encoder wheels, > >while outwardly identical and mechanically similar to Tempest, actually > >reverse the two wires coming from the encoder, causing your player to spin > >backwards. > > Yeah, I can use a couple jumpers on the board and physically "reverse" the > connections. (Or, can you just invert the signals? Or maybe you invert > one line? I'll have to think about that.) Either of those will do the job just fine. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 06:49:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708071353.JAA28325@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: G-05 monitors To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:53:04 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970807032801.70879858@pop3.concentric.net> from "Zonn" at Aug 6, 97 03:30:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > If you ever plan on building a Color Card convertor you're going to need to > recreate these circuits since Boxing Bugs intentionally overdrives the X/Y > signals, since it was known no damage would result, and software clipping is > slow, and a pain. So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 07:32:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970807143414.0269d8a8@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 10:34:14 -0400 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:16 PM 8/6/97 PDT, you wrote: >At 05:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Zonn said: >> >>Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is >>dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon >>as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has >>probably killed many a monitor... >> >> Hi All, This is my first post to this list, and hopefully not the last if I can come up with anything reasonable to contribute. :-) Anyway, I have a question on the above. I bought a Star Castle about a year ago that ended up having a dead CPU and the breakers pop, just as Zonn describes above. I've picked up another couple of CPU boards, one being a working Star Castle, and I've placed it in. I found a couple of dead power transistors on the heat sinks on the chassis and replaced them. The breakers still pop, so I put it down for a bit, and now a year later I want to go back and finish fixing it. My question is this: Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? Thanks, -Chris -- Christopher V. Moore Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 08:02:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9708071459.AA24682@savage.raleigh.ibm.com> Subject: Re: G-05 monitors To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:59:19 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970807143414.0269d8a8@heartlab.com> from "Christopher V. Moore" at Aug 7, 97 10:34:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 32852 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > My question is this: > Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? Someone posted this to RGVAC once, but I don't remember who. I tried a few months back to find-out who wrote it, but no one admitted to it. I suppose they were afraid I'd be asking them about my Space War... :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So your Cinematronics/Vectorbeam vector game doesn't work, eh? Maybe I can help. Does your game have power; does it do anything at all (other than light the attractor if it has one)? It is best to check with a meter if you have +5VDC, +/-25VDC, and 6.3VAC but you can get a good idea if you are getting +5VDC by watching the red LED on the CPU board which is the largest of the game PCBs (some early versions of the CPU board don't have this LED.). Even if your power supply is bad, you can easily bench test this board by wiring up Ground and +5 volts to it from a modern day power supply. This is enough to get the CPU board running (but not the monitor or the audio board). When the power is turned on, the LED should come on very brightly for about 1-2 seconds and then turn off. Most games give some kind of sound burst for a second, too. If it never lights you either have severe game board problems or, more likely, power supply problems. If it stays lit then you almost definitely have game board problems. If you don't have power, you need to fix/replace your power supply or wiring harness, obviously. Check to make sure your power cord is OK as they often go bad (on any game) and be sure to replace the plug if some idiot has broken off the earth ground pin. Also check to make sure the safety interlock for the back door is functional (conducts when pushed in and also when pulled out). I only have experience with the Condor brand power supply (CP 573) but Cinematronics also used another vendor, National Power Technology, who made a very different but pinout compatible unit which I have never seen. Vectorbeam used yet another power supply that was incompatible with the Cinematronics harnesses. No matter what power supply you have, start out by checking the fuses and resetting the circuit breakers. If you have a Condor supply and are using USA power, make sure the switch in the upper left is in the 115 VAC (down) position and check fuse F1 and make sure it is good and is rated 4 Amps at 250 Volts. If it is bad or a different rating, replace it with the proper fuse. Other countries' power systems may require different values of these 2 things but the PCB tells you what they should be. Next check/reset the strange looking circuit breakers in the middle left of the board. There are 2 right next to one another and each has a thin red rod sticking out of it. There is no way to tell if these have been tripped or not and they are old and unreliable so push them down a few times to be sure they get reset. Lots of times this is all that is wrong. I replace these with new breakers on all my power supplies since the original ones are almost always flaky and rusted and probably not breaking very well (and sometimes not conducting either :). The original breakers are rated at 3.0A hold and 4.5A spike and are made by Littlefuse Inc. but I have been unable to locate that company and they probably aren't around any more (Condor has no information about them or the power supply but Condor still exists and builds power supplies to this day). I I I I |_______[I]_______| <---- They look like this from the side and | 3.0A HOLD +--+ | on the bottom they say: | 4.5A ___ |SA| | PAT LITTLEFUSE INC | | | +--+ | 3038047 230 +------+---+----+-+ 3234348 815/SERIES | | I have been unable to find an exact match for the breakers but I found something that works well after a minor amount of modification. I use Heinemann brand "Series KD1 Re-Cirk-It" breakers rated at 3.0A (they generally don't list the spike Amps anymore, I guess). They cost about $5 each and any large electronics supplier should be able to order them or you can call the manufacturer at 609.882.4800 to find a distributor in your area (or maybe they will even sell direct; I don't know for sure). I got mine at Geeco Sales near me at 214.341.2626. These are adequate subs since I had a bad machine which would trip both the breakers after 5 minutes of warmup and it tripped these replacements right on cue without damaging anything. When these breakers trip, the button on top pops up so you can tell that it needs to be reset just by looking. Anyways, the new breakers look like this: __ +--++--+ In order to make the legs fit, you must bend the pair | | | | | | | | from this: | | to this: ++ ++ | | | | | | | | | | You then have to cut a small hunk off the bottom of each leg | | so that it will fit in the hole in the PCB. Use heavy duty | | wire cutters or tin snips to cut off 1/4 of the screw-down | | hole in each leg so each leg is half as wide. It takes 2 | | radial, orthogonal cuts into the hole to make the leg change +-+--+-+ | | | | | | from this: | | to this: | | | | |o| |++ | | +-+ ++ Now that you have power coursing through your power supply you should check the DC outputs for AC ripple which might be present. If so, check the electrolytic filter capacitors and the rectifier diodes; especially the capacitors. They tend to dry out after a while and lose their capacitance. This will give you a pulsing DC on the outputs which shows up as considerable AC voltage on a meter. Clip another capacitor of equal or greater value and greater voltage across each power supply capacitor and measure the outputs again. If you get good values then you have bad capacitors. The only other problems I have seen were caused by idiots who shorted out the fuse and/or the circuit breakers. On one bypassed power supply, diodes CR9 and CR13 were blown apart and needed to be replaced. I could not find the original P600B diodes so I used MR751 substitutes (you can also use NTE5812, ECG5812 or SK3639). NOTE: The schematic lists these diodes as type "MR8008" which, evidently, is a Motorola part but I was unable to find any reference to this part anywhere and resorted to reading the part number off the diodes themselves to figure out what they were. On another bypassed power supply, the T0-3 package transistor Q1 was bad. I replaced the original 2N6055 with an NTE243. Now we move onto the monitors since, hopefully, your game boards are working and your power supply is fixed. First a little bit of history. Solar Quest uses a different model than all the other games. Most games have a tri-state (2-bit) intensity which is off/low/high. In Star Castle, for example, walls that have not been hit are "high" intensity and walls that have been hit once are "low" intensity. Solar Quest has a little vertical board mounted on the back of the monitor frame. The ribbon cable from the logic board goes first to this board and then on to the main monitor board. This board has a bunch of transistors which apparently make up a 6-bit DAC for the 64-level intensity. As with the game boards, they figured they could save money by designing their own circuits instead of using off-the-shelf ICs; Cinematronics really liked discrete components which I guess is a good thing since replacements for 74-series TTL and plain transistors will be around for a LONG time and make repair possible. In any case, I don't know much about that extra board since my Solar Quest is missing the board and the game boards are dead to boot. When I do fix it, I'll chronicle it here. I should mention that early versions of the monitor had the HV transformer and circuit right on the monitor PCB versus in the metal box mounted on the chassis which most monitors have. The ones on the board had VERY fine wires exposed that were easily damaged. I've had more than one report of these wires being done in by mice. The HV often dies with the boxed HV supply too but the problem is often not the transformer itself. If you open it up you find more of those neat discrete devices so you have a chance of fixing it. If you get no picture at all, you should disconnect both of the 6-pin Molex connectors that lead to the heat sinks on the side of the monitor to check if this generates a picture. Without these final output stage amplifiers, the picture will be small (about 2 inches square) but easily visible and in proportion to the way it should look. A lot of testing will require you to remove these connectors. Please note that running your game this way without the final stage amplifiers is very rough on your monitor so you should run with them disconnected for as short a time as possible. I mention this mainly because you will probably see a gigantic sticker on your heat sink that screams, "_WARNING_ DO NOT OPERATE WITH POWER TRANSISTOR MODULE UNPLUGGED" and the schematic in the manual says, "-CAUTION- DO NOT APPLY POWER TO DISPLAY ELECTRONICS UNLESS POWER TRANSISTORS ARE CONNECTED. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN PERMANENT DAMAGE TO DRIVE ELECTRONICS". I have never damaged my monitor by ignoring this warning (and I ignore it a lot) but do not run the game like this longer than a few minutes at a time without freeze spraying R and R every few minutes. Further explanation comes from the following article found in Star*Tech Journal: ================================================================================ INSERT ARTICLE ABOUT BURNING THE RESISTORS HERE. ================================================================================ Anyway, if after removing the connector you get a small picture then you know your problem is in your monitor. If you don't get a picture and you think (or know) that your game boards are good (are generating an image signal) then check the several 3-pin regulators that supply the various voltages on the monitor PCB. These go bad frequently so check each one for proper output DC voltage at the 3rd pin. You might get some indication of a problem with these by looking at the neon lams clusered around the center of the board a little off to the right. They are normally supposed to be off; if any is on, it indicates an overvoltage condition. If your low voltages are OK, check your HV. If you are tripping the breakers, it is probably something in the X or Y circuit on the monitor. Isolate it to the monitor by disconnecting the large Molex connector to remove the monitor from the rest of the game and power on. If the breakers hold then the problem is related to (in) the monitor. One by one, disconnect the 6-pin Molex connectors. See which disconnection (if any) prevents the breakers from tripping. If you unplug X and the breakers don't trip then you have a problem in the X circuit. If you unplug both and the breaker still trips then you have problems elsewhere. If you are losing portions of your screen, follow the instructions in the troubleshooting section of the manual [included below]. If none of the 3 suggested transistors is the problem, then feel the heat sinks. If either is too hot to touch then suspect that the cluster of 5 diodes (D107-D111) in the center of the monitor PCB has at least 1 bad diode. They are type 1N4003 (but you can use any 1N400# as long as # >= 3) and are VERY inexpensive so rather than figure out which one is bad, just replace all five. When I had this problem, the picture would start out OK but after a few minutes the Y heat sink would get super hot and this would cause the weaker of the two TO-3 transistors to fail which caused a loss of -Y deflection followed shortly thereafter by both breakers tripping. Freeze spray narrowed the bad part to those diodes and now everything runs cool and steady. If this doesn't get your picture back, you will need to dig deeper into the monitor circuit using a scope to trace through from the DAC's to the outputs checking to see where the signal starts looking bad (i.e. chopped off to only the top/bottom/left/right half). One last thing to check first is the many tantalum capacitors that were used which have a nasty habit of failing with either a short or an open unlike regular electrolytics that dry out and loose micro Farads. Another trick to use to further isolate the problem is to cross the horizontal and vertical stages between the control and power sides. Notice those two long jumper wires going from the area with the pots, over to the power amp sections? Those carry the final deflection signals to the amps. By crossing them, you turn the display 90 degrees, and you can isolate the problem to either the control or power sections. Get going in the right direction and then keep looking. Replace whichever component you isolate as the one dropping the signal. [The majority of this paragraph courtesy of Mike Inglem inglem@adnetsol.com] If your picture needs centering, use the 2 metal rings on the neck of the tube with tabs on them. Each controls a magnet that will "pull" the picture in the direction the tab points. To move the image to one side, make the tab on a ring point towards that direction. The 2 rings are used in conjunction to create varying degrees of pull in a particular direction. To pull the screen as strongly as possible to a side, point both tabs to that side. If you then adjust 1 ring 45 degrees up and the other 45 degrees down, you are still pulling in the same direction as before but you are now pulling with 1/2 the intensity since the other 1/2 intensity is cancelled out by one magnet pulling up and the other magnet pulling down. Finally you get to use your high school trig and vector algebra skills in real life! This 2-ring centering method is used on most black and white monitors (vector and raster). If your image is too dim even when the brightness adjustment is all the way up then you most likely have a bad picture tube which should be replaced since it is going bad. For some reason, I see a lot of Star Castles with dim tubes but never any other game. Even though Star Castle (undoubtedly) got much more use than the other titles, poor initial tube quality, not on-time, is generally the cause of this kind of tube failure so perhaps the Star Castle production run(s) used a different (worse) tube supplier. Rick claims that this dimness in Star Castles was prevalent even when the games first hit the arcades which would also point to manufacturing defects in the tubes. My dim Star Castle has an Amperex M50-102W tube but my bright RipOff has a Sylvania tube. Strangely enough, my bright Armor... Attack... also has the Amperex tube so it would seem that not all Amperex tubes go bad even though most (if not all) tubes that go bad are Amperex. The above information solves every problem I have run across so far but I have only fixed 4 games :> There is TONS of fantastic information in all of the Cinematronics manuals for technicians to use in troubleshooting; I wish all game companies put as much effort into their manuals. Here are some excerpts from the Armor... Attack... manual. ================================================================================ SECTION 4 OPERATOR'S GUIDE TO TROUBLESHOOTING or How do I Figure out Which Board to Send Out for Repair? O.K. - this is where we get technical on you - but don't panic! We'll keep this as simple as possible so you can figure out which board to send out for repair. For some of the steps in this section you will need a simple VOM [multi-meter], and know how to use it. Here are two important procedures we will refer back to in this section: Checking the LED: ----------------- Whenever there is a problem with the game, a good place to start is the LED (light-emitting diode) on the CPU board near the Molex power plug. This LED indicates whether most of the CPU circuit is working. When everything works right, here's what happens: Power to the game is turned on, the LED flashes on, then stays off. If the LED is flickering or on continuously, there is a problem with the CPU or the +5 volt supply. Check +5 volts on the logic board (follow procedures in this section). If the +5 is O.K., have CPU repaired. Checking the +5 Volt Supply: ---------------------------- To check the +5 volts, you need a voltmeter. Turn power on in the game. Notice on the upper corner of the logic board nearest you is a little pin marked gnd. This is a great place to put the negative probe of the voltmeter. Near this pin in position T13 (see CPU layout, pg. A-8) is a 20 pin IC marked 74LS377. Ignore the other numbers on this chip. We can measure the +5 volt supply at pin 20. Pin 20 is the bottom pin on the far side of the chip. Put your positive probe there, without touching any other pins, and you should get a reading. Anything between +4.8 volts and +5.1 volts is o.k., otherwise, adjust the voltage. The adjustment is located on the power supply, and it is the only screwdriver adjustment on the power supply. Adjust _slowly_ WHILE READING THE VOLTAGE. Too much voltage will destroy IC's fast. If voltage cannot be adjusted into the correct range (+4.8 - +5.1 volts), repair power supply. The following is a guide compiled from experience. It cannot be right 100% of the time: SYMPTOM WHAT TO DO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Circuit breakers trip 1. Unplug game. Unplug Molex power plug from monitor and reset breakers. Turn POWER ON. If breakers trip: POWER OFF, see 2. If breakers don't trip: Coin-up game and "play" it. Are all sound effects normal? Yes - repair monitor. No - Problem is probably in CPU or power supply. Check LED on CPU. Check +5 volts on CPU (see procedure) If +5 volts is good, repair CPU. 2. Unplug Molex power connector from audio board, reset breakers and turn POWER ON. If breakers trip: Problem is in coin meter circuit or call factory for help. If breakers don't trip: Repair audio board. POWER OFF, reconnect molex plug to monitor. Turn power on to see if there is a good picture. If the picture is bad, problem is probably in the monitor. If breakers trip: Check LED and +5 volt supply. If LED and + 5 volts is O.K., problem is probably in monitor. MONITOR PROBLEMS ---------------- Here is a systematic guide to trouble shooting a monitor that blows breakers. Monitor must be connected to a good CPU. Check for burned components. The first thing we want to do is be able to power up the monitor without blowing breakers - then do troubleshooting. POWER OFF. Unplug yoke from monitor board. Unplug socket from CRT. POWER ON. If breakers blow: POWER OFF. See 1. If breakers hold: Check outputs of -15v, +15v, and +5v regulators. Output must be within +/-0.5 volt tolerance. A. Use O-scope to check deflection circuits for proper signal. 1mv/div time base is a good scope setting. Between DAC-80 output and input of Q101 or Q201, signal amplitude is about +/-3 volts peak. DC component should be less than +/-200mv. Too much DC component will trip the breakers. If signal into Q101/Q201 is good, problem is in transistorized deflection amps. With yoke disconnected, a good amp will put out an odd looking "square wave", swinging between +25 volts. To check a bad deflection amp, check all transistors. Look for burned R118, R119, R113, R117, or R218, R219, R213, R217. R115, R116, R120, R121 may open with no burn marks. For test purposes, protection transistors Q106, Q107, Q206, Q207 may be removed from the circuit and amplifier can be powered up. Always replace protection transistors before returning monitor to normal service. 1. POWER OFF. Unplug heat sink wiring harnesses from monitor board. POWER ON. Breakers blow: POWER OFF See 2. Breakers hold: one or more of Q110, Q111, Q210, Q211 are shorted. Damage elsewhere is likely. Follow procedure at A. 2. Problem is most likely Video High Voltage module. Unplug from board and POWER ON. Breakers hold: replace or repair Video power supply. Breakers blow: Maybe a shorted tantalum capacitor. Or call us. TABLE 7-1. TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE PROBLEM | PROBABLE SOLUTIONS ---------------------------+------------------------------------------------ No Picture | Listen for audible "clatter" from the | deflection yoke on the CRT neck. If the | clatter is present, deflection circuitry | is working and the problems is in the | intensity circuit. | | No high voltage. [supposed to be in left col?] | | If game audio is present, the CPU board is | functional and the problem is in the | monitor. If the audio is distorted or | absent, the CPU board is suspect. If CPU | board is equipped with red led near the | input power plug, verify that it flashes | once when power is applied and remains off | thereafter. If no LED, verify that C8 pin | 6 is constantly low with a voltmeter. | | Check the neck of the CRT for a glowing | filament. If there is no glow, check the | brown & black twisted pair of the CRT plug | for 6.3 volts AC. | | Be sure all connections to the CPU board | and monitor are firmly seated. | | Connect a scope to the yellow wire leading | to the CRT connector. Set the brightness | full clockwise. There should be an 80-100 | volt DC base with pulses dropping down to a | 40 volt level. If no pulses, probe IC7 pin | 4 with a scope and observe data pulses. If | present, check Q2 & Q3 with an ohm[m]eter or | transistor checker. | | Check cathode of D5 for a full wave recti- | fied, unfiltered voltage signal floating at | +25 volts. | | Check seating of CRT plug. Remove and probe | with scope to verify presence of proper | signals. | Narrow Line on Display | Check IC1. | | Check for open yoke windings with ohm[m]eter. | | Check for bad solder & crimp connections to | yoke wires. | | Verify continuity between display board and | heat sunk power transistors Q110, Q210, Q111 | and Q211. | | Check Q110, Q210, Q111, Q211 with ohm[m]eter or | transistor tester. Inspect solder connections | on circuit board molex connector socket pins. | Half Picture | Left Half [present]: Check Q206, 208, 210 | Right Half [present]: Check Q207, 209, 211 | Top Half [present]: Check Q107, 109, 111 | Left Half [present]: Check Q106, 108, 110 | | Check solder connections on heat sink molex | plugs J3 & J4. | | Check diodes CR109, 110, 111 | Check diodes CR209, 210, 211 | | Check transistors Q105, Q205 | | Check resistors R116, R216. | No Brightness Control | Check intensity pot R111 for open wiper or | internal short. | Check for open capacitor C17. | Check for bad solder connections to R111. | Picture on Display Jitters | Replace analog switch IC1. | | Check size pots R109 and R209 for wiper noise | by turning briskly while observing the screen. | Readjust for proper screen size. | | Check for bad solder connections on R109 & R209. | | Check DAC IC101 & IC201 for bad solder | connections. | | Insure [sic] that all molex connectors are | properly seated. | Suspect High Voltage | An accurate High Voltage meter will read close too high/too low | to 16KV if high voltage is good. Self-contained | HV meters vary widely in accuracy. If +90 and | +400 volts out of high voltage supply are good, | chances are 16KV is good. If +90 or +400 volts | are bad, repair or replace high voltage supply. | Dotted Display | Check IC-7 pins 2, 4. | Verify proper operation of IC1. | Check for proper +25 and -25 volts DC. | Check operation of DAC's IC101 and IC201. | On logic board, check I[C]8 pin 2 for pulses. | Verify presence at analog switch. | No Audio | Check for open speaker coil. | Check transistors 2N6292 and 2N6107 and nearby | output components on audio board with ohm[m]eter | or transistor checker. | Check 7815 and 7915 outputs. | Check for open wiper on volume control mounted | | Refer to audio board theory of operation and | troubleshooting guide. | | Replace F2 on logic board. | Coin Counter | Check 2N6292 transistor on logic board with is Inoperative | oh[m]meter or transistor tester. Verify proper | operation of A4 by grounding A4 pin 1. Coin | counter should click. | | Disconnect coin counter molex connector. | Measure DC voltage on red wire. Meter should | read +25 volts DC. | Gives No Credits | Tie E4 pin 12 to ground. If credits fail to | appear, replace E4. If credits appear, | disconnect logic board ribbon J3. Measure | +5 volts on A4 pins 1 & 5. If missing, | replace pull up resistor pack C2. | | Alternately ground A4 pins 1 & 5. If credits | appear, problem is in switches on coin door. | Verify proper coin door microswitch operation. | | Reconnect J3. Observe A4 pins 3 & 6 | alternately while depressing microswitch | lever on coin mechanism. Pins 3 & 6 should | change states. Replace A4 [if they don't]. | | Replace F2 (74LS259) on logic board. | Player Control Button(s) | Refer to player control schematic in APPENDIX. Inoperative | | Verify with oh[m]meter proper closure of player | control leaf blade switches. | | Remove J3 connector. Measure +5 volts on D4 - | 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14, 15. If missing, | replace D4. Replace pull up resistor pack D2. | | Measure +5 volts on C4 - 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, | 14, 15. If missing, replace C4. Replace | pull up resistor pack C2. | | Coin up a game and, with J3 disconnected, | ground aforementioned pins on C4 & D4. If | display responds[,] problem is in continuity | from J3 to player control switches [i.e. in | the wiring harness]. SECTION 8 SUGGESTED PARTS FOR STOCK The following parts fail most frequently: MONITOR ------- LF13331 - Analog switch [NTE861] 2N5876 - PNP output transistor [NTE219] 2N5878 - NPN output transistor [NTE284] 2N5320 - PNP driver transistor [NTE16005] 2N5322 - NPN driver transistor [NTE16004] 7406 - IC inverter package [NTE7406] 2N5550 - NPN transistor 140 volt BVceo [NTE194] 7805 - +5 volt regulator IC [NTE960] 7815 - +15 volt regulator IC [NTE968] 7915 - -15 volt regulator IC [NTE969] CPU --- 74LS259/DM8334 - IC 8 bit latch [NTE74LS259] 74LS32 - IC or gate [NTE74LS32] D ROM1 - IC PROM 20101A2 - IC RAM 256x4 AUDIO ----- 2N6107 - PNP output transistor [NTE197] 2N6292 - NPN output transistor [NTE196] TL081/LF351 - IC op-amp [NTE857M] CA3080 - IC transconduct. [NTE902] 74LS377 - IC octal D flip-flop (also used in CPU) [NTE74LS377] The following parts don't fail frequently but are not readily available [from] local supply houses: MONITOR ------- DAC-80 - digital to analog converter CPU --- Masked ROMS - set of four contain game program D ROMS - custom made for CPU 25LS181 - ALU ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Re-posted without permission, as I still don't know who wrote it. I figured it was Zonn... +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw@vnet.ibm.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/linvjw | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 08:20:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Message-Id: <199708071520.LAA12340@po_box.cig.mot.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:19:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison In-Reply-To: "Christopher V. Moore" "Re: G-05 monitors" (Aug 7, 10:34am) References: <199708071434.KAA07026@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 7, 10:34am, Christopher V. Moore wrote: > Subject: Re: G-05 monitors > At 05:16 PM 8/6/97 PDT, you wrote: > >At 05:00 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >>Zonn said: > >> > >>Yeah, that's what the +/- 25v circuit breakers were for. If the CPU card is > >>dead (or the monitor cable install backwards), the inputs float and as soon > >>as they overcurrent the circuit breakers blow. This genuis of a circuit has > >>probably killed many a monitor... > >> > >> > > Hi All, > > This is my first post to this list, and hopefully not the last if I can come > up with anything reasonable to contribute. :-) > > Anyway, I have a question on the above. I bought a Star Castle about a year > ago that ended up having a dead CPU and the breakers pop, just as Zonn > describes above. I've picked up another couple of CPU boards, one being > a working Star Castle, and I've placed it in. I found a couple of dead > power transistors on the heat sinks on the chassis and replaced them. > The breakers still pop, so I put it down for a bit, and now a year later > I want to go back and finish fixing it. > > My question is this: > Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? [snip trouble shooting guide] That's a great trouble shooting guide! A quick summary of what I look for on these monitors: shorted/bad deflection transistors (easy to determine), bad transistors on the monitor chassis (the ones that power the +/-15VDC, +/-18VDC?..you can check these by trying to take a reading quickly before the circuit breakers pop), and shorted tantelum capacitors--these DO go bad. Good luck! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 08:30:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970807153140.03082490@heartlab.com> X-Sender: cmoore@heartlab.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:31:40 -0400 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Christopher V. Moore" Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:59 AM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >> My question is this: >> Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? > >Someone posted this to RGVAC once, but I don't remember who. I tried a >few months back to find-out who wrote it, but no one admitted to it. I >suppose they were afraid I'd be asking them about my Space War... :-) >Re-posted without permission, as I still don't know who wrote it. I >figured it was Zonn... > >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | >| linvjw@vnet.ibm.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/linvjw | >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Wow! Thanks John! This should help quite a bit. -Chris -- Christopher V. Moore Heartlab, Inc. - 101 Airport Rd - Westerly, RI 02891 Phone: (401) 596-0592 - Fax: (401) 596-8562 - Email: cmoore@heartlab.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 09:16:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:23:15 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >> If you ever plan on building a Color Card convertor you're going to need to >> recreate these circuits since Boxing Bugs intentionally overdrives the X/Y >> signals, since it was known no damage would result, and software clipping is >> slow, and a pain. > >So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the >CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. From when I looked at it-- all it does is latch the 12 bit "color" data and use a simple resisitor-based D/A to convert it to voltages for the color guns. The game board turns the colors on and off as needed just like the intensity boards. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 09:56:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:55:31 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the >CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. Zonn's latest hardware description talks a bit about the color conversion. Since I have to do clipping now, looks like i'm just going to implement the whole thing now with a uP and two DACs, and do the whole thing in software. It does have the advantage that you can use it as a test pattern generator, too :-) My current thought is to have two 12 bit input ports, and have the uP watch the state of the start, end signals and an intensity port. One thing I was wondering, Zonn, is if the 12 bit start/end values are ever not at the endpoints of the vector being drawn. Do they ever send endpoint data farther out than the actual line end, and use the line timer to clip to the visible endpoint. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 10:08 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807220553.2a3f8554@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:59 AM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >> My question is this: >> Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? > >Someone posted this to RGVAC once, but I don't remember who. I tried a >few months back to find-out who wrote it, but no one admitted to it. I >suppose they were afraid I'd be asking them about my Space War... :-) Wasn't me! >If you get no picture at all, you should disconnect both of the 6-pin >Molex connectors that lead to the heat sinks on the side of the monitor >to check if this generates a picture. Without these final output stage >amplifiers, the picture will be small (about 2 inches square) but easily >visible and in proportion to the way it should look. > >A lot of testing will require you to remove these connectors. Please >note that running your game this way without the final stage amplifiers >is very rough on your monitor so you should run with them disconnected >for as short a time as possible. I mention this mainly because you will >probably see a gigantic sticker on your heat sink that screams, >"_WARNING_ DO NOT OPERATE WITH POWER TRANSISTOR MODULE UNPLUGGED" and >the schematic in the manual says, "-CAUTION- DO NOT APPLY POWER TO >DISPLAY ELECTRONICS UNLESS POWER TRANSISTORS ARE CONNECTED. FAILURE TO >DO SO WILL RESULT IN PERMANENT DAMAGE TO DRIVE ELECTRONICS". I have >never damaged my monitor by ignoring this warning (and I ignore it a >lot) but do not run the game like this longer than a few minutes at a >time without freeze spraying R and R every few minutes. This really is a *bad* thing to do. By disconnecting the output transistors the entire yoke is being driven through the small pre-drivers through a couple of 47 ohm resistors. On old models these were 1/4 watt resistor and would probably burn up at this point. In newer models they were replaced with 1/2 watts which gives the transistor a running chance at being the first thing to burn up. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Re-posted without permission, as I still don't know who wrote it. I >figured it was Zonn... Like I have that kind of time!!!! Nope, it wasn't me, it was probably written before I even started to collect games, just a little over a year ago. Nice article though (with the above exception excluded). -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:22:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 10:26 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807222328.3067dc6c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:53 AM 8/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >> If you ever plan on building a Color Card convertor you're going to need to >> recreate these circuits since Boxing Bugs intentionally overdrives the X/Y >> signals, since it was known no damage would result, and software clipping is >> slow, and a pain. > >So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the >CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. For one the colors are inverted where "all ones" mean black, and 'all zeros' mean full intensity. It's explained it in the most recent release of the Cinematronics Programmer's Guide on Bill's Cinematronics Home Page (www.concentric.net/~Zonn -- I let him use my ISP) BTW: Paul, you have to do something about those poor WotW Martians on your home page, they're looking a bit anemic! Maybe they need a little more copper in there diet? Everyone knows martians are green! ;^) ;^) "Bu" is cool! -Zonn Here's an excerpt from the "Manual" -- such as it is. The colors are latched the same as Solar Quest and Sundance, and all the different monitors are mapped as follows: ---------------------------------- 16 levels of intensities (Sundance): xxxx xxxx CCCC Where: x - Don't care. CCCC - Intensity level. 0000 = Lowest intensity. 0001 = 2nd lowest intensity. 1111 = Highest intensity. ----- 64 levels of intensities (Solar Quest): xxxx CCCC CCxx Where: x - Don't care. CCCC CC - Intensity level. 1111 11 = Lowest intensity. 1111 10 = 2nd lowest intensity. 0000 00 = Highest intensity. ----- 4096 colors (Boxing Bugs, War of the Worlds): BBBB GGGG RRRR Where: BBBB - Blue intensity level. 1111 = No blue. 1110 = Dimmest blue. 0000 = Maximum blue level. GGGG - Green intensity level. 1111 = No green. 1110 = Dimmest green. 0000 = Maximum green level. RRRR - Red intensity level. 1111 = No red. 1110 = Dimmest red. 0000 = Maximum red level. 1111 1111 1111 = Black. 1110 1111 1111 = Lowest intensity blue. 1111 1110 1111 = Lowest intensity green. 1111 1111 1110 = Lowest intensity red. 0000 0000 0000 = Brightest white. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:23:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708071725.NAA12469@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:25:44 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 7, 97 09:55:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > >So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the > >CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. > > Zonn's latest hardware description talks a bit about the color conversion. > Since I have to do clipping now, looks like i'm just going to implement > the whole thing now with a uP and two DACs, and do the whole thing in > software. It does have the advantage that you can use it as a test pattern > generator, too :-) > > My current thought is to have two 12 bit input ports, and have the uP > watch the state of the start, end signals and an intensity port. > > One thing I was wondering, Zonn, is if the 12 bit start/end values are > ever not at the endpoints of the vector being drawn. Do they ever > send endpoint data farther out than the actual line end, and use the > line timer to clip to the visible endpoint. Every line is drawn by extending the end-point beyond the place where the beam stops. Larry Rosenthal actually pattented the technique. Timing is critical to turn off the beam and the analog switches to stop the beam, that's the whole purpose of the line timer. It's kinda funny to know that even those short lines that make up the ships in Space War are extended to a length comparable to the monitor size and then stopped before they draw too much... If you're going to put a processor in there, why not run an emulator on it and replace ALL the cinematronics hardware :-) BTW, if Larrys pattents are not on the web, I could get Frank to scan my copies in ;-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:29:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:27:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708071731.NAA12413@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: G-05 monitors To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:31:10 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Aug 7, 97 09:23:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > >So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the > >CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. > > From when I looked at it-- all it does is latch the 12 bit "color" data and > use a simple resisitor-based D/A to convert it to voltages for the color > guns. The game board turns the colors on and off as needed just like the > intensity boards. Would that be 4-R 4-G 4-B ??? I tried that on the emulator and it looked quite wrong (unless I messed something up :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:29:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Paul said: If you're going to put a processor in there, why not run an emulator on it and replace ALL the cinematronics hardware :-) I didn't want to put one in that would be fast enough to be able to do that. Is the analog clipping just a comparitor that clamps the deflection voltage to the screen edge(s)? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 10:53:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 10:59 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807225621.2ab73406@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:55 AM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: > >>So how does the Color Card interpret the 12-bit color data it get from the >>CPU ??? This has been bugging me (no pun intended) for some time. > >Zonn's latest hardware description talks a bit about the color conversion. >Since I have to do clipping now, looks like i'm just going to implement >the whole thing now with a uP and two DACs, and do the whole thing in >software. It does have the advantage that you can use it as a test pattern >generator, too :-) > >My current thought is to have two 12 bit input ports, and have the uP >watch the state of the start, end signals and an intensity port. > >One thing I was wondering, Zonn, is if the 12 bit start/end values are >ever not at the endpoints of the vector being drawn. Do they ever >send endpoint data farther out than the actual line end, and use the >line timer to clip to the visible endpoint. They *always* set end points way beyond that of the vector being drawn, and then clip the lines using the timer. That way they display only the linear part of the R/C charge slope. Without having access to the internal timer calculating the length of the vectors is going to be a little envolved, you'll have to do a realtime plot of a charging capacitor to keep up with the C-CPU. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:00:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 11:05 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807230226.0d377ec8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:27 AM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >Paul said: > >If you're going to put a processor in there, why not run an emulator on >it and replace ALL the cinematronics hardware :-) > > >I didn't want to put one in that would be fast enough to be able to do >that. Is the analog clipping just a comparitor that clamps the deflection >voltage to the screen edge(s)? Yes, and you don't need it for the B&W games. The circuit looks pretty simple, a TL081 and a power transistor (to sink the current), and few resistors and things. On the Color Conv Card, the level of clip is adjustable with a pot, and it's a very sharp clip. Start with getting the B&W going, and add clipping, the Linearity and Pincusioning stuff later... -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:00:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn said: Without having access to the internal timer calculating the length of the vectors is going to be a little envolved, you'll have to do a realtime plot of a charging capacitor to keep up with the C-CPU. I guess you could poll the intensity bit and watch for it to be negated Getting the endpoints to line up would be tricky.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:09:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 11:14 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970807231135.2bef718e@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:27 AM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >Paul said: > >If you're going to put a processor in there, why not run an emulator on >it and replace ALL the cinematronics hardware :-) > > >I didn't want to put one in that would be fast enough to be able to do >that. The thing with using an emulator is you don't have to keep up with each vector being drawn. The emulator can feed you vector information in any format you'd like (including the the *real* vector end points), and as long as you can refresh the screen before the next screen (which you have to do in any design), everything can be made to work. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:23:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708071822.NAA14625@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970807231135.2bef718e@pop3.concentric.net> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 13:24:08 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter References: <2.2.16.19970807231135.2bef718e@pop3.concentric.net> Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > The thing with using an emulator is you don't have to keep up with each > vector being drawn. Yeah, but could you add it to your VAPS entry? ;-) ;-) Seriously, there is some charm to running at least part of the game off of original hardware (part of the reason the CNMA games are so cool is teh bit slice stuff). Seems to be more in keeping with the hobby to interface an original board to another monitor, than to emulate the board and play it on a non-original monitor. Of course, whatever works. At some level, most people just want to play these things (you can always point to the boards in your rack ;-) Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:36:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Star Tech article on LF13331 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:34:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, As with many Star Tech articles, the "Cinematronics High Speed Analog Switch (LF13331) Modification" article is short amount of text, so I typed it in. I hope this is what everyone was interested in? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >From Star Tech, September 1980 page 8: Cinematronics High Speed Analog Switch (LF13331) Modification ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- The Analog switch in Cinematronics' monitors can be damaged if the -15 volt supply line reaches the chip before the +15 volt line. Addition of the 1N914 diode protects against this condition. Attach the cathode (banded end) of the diode to pin 4 of the Analog switch socket. Attach the anode to pin 5. After soldering, clean thoroughly with proper solvent or resin remover solution. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 11:38:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Seems to be more in keeping with the hobby to interface an original board to another monitor, than to emulate the board and play it on a non-original monitor." --- And coming full circle, the idea was for a B&W (G-05) adapter, which is pretty simple, adding the 16 and 64 level adapter circuitry as well. Think I'll worry about the color Cine stuff for another day... From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 13:21:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:27:58 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Would that be 4-R 4-G 4-B ??? I tried that on the emulator and it looked >quite wrong (unless I messed something up :-) Wasn't I on the phone with you while tracing the circuit out? (Getting a lot of bad bits in my memory about things more than about 3 months old. :-) I remember that one of the lines was inverted in hardware... I think it was 4:4:4 RGB, but they might have given an extra bit to green and stolen one from blue to make up some of the human visual-range stuff. I don't think so though. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 13:29:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 13:34 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970808013124.2cbf832c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:27 PM 8/7/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Would that be 4-R 4-G 4-B ??? I tried that on the emulator and it looked >>quite wrong (unless I messed something up :-) > >Wasn't I on the phone with you while tracing the circuit out? (Getting a >lot of bad bits in my memory about things more than about 3 months old. :-) > >I remember that one of the lines was inverted in hardware... I think it >was 4:4:4 RGB, but they might have given an extra bit to green and stolen >one from blue to make up some of the human visual-range stuff. I don't >think so though. It's 4-B 4-G 4-R, and all the lines are inverted, all zero's being bright white, and all ones being black. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 14:01:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708072105.RAA17134@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: G-05 monitors To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:05:17 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970808013124.2cbf832c@pop3.concentric.net> from "Zonn" at Aug 7, 97 01:34:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > >I remember that one of the lines was inverted in hardware... I think it > >was 4:4:4 RGB, but they might have given an extra bit to green and stolen > >one from blue to make up some of the human visual-range stuff. I don't > >think so though. > > It's 4-B 4-G 4-R, and all the lines are inverted, all zero's being bright > white, and all ones being black. I got a clue and looked at your updated page. It looks more like there are 3 bits for intensity and one to completely disable the color. It that a valid interpretation?? As for my aliens being white At least my Space War ships are more than 3 pixels! :-) :-) Thanks, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 14:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708072124.RAA18376@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:24:23 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970807231135.2bef718e@pop3.concentric.net> from "Zonn" at Aug 7, 97 11:14:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > At 10:27 AM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Paul said: > > > >If you're going to put a processor in there, why not run an emulator on > >it and replace ALL the cinematronics hardware :-) > > > > > >I didn't want to put one in that would be fast enough to be able to do > >that. > > The thing with using an emulator is you don't have to keep up with each > vector being drawn. The emulator can feed you vector information in any > format you'd like (including the the *real* vector end points), and as long > as you can refresh the screen before the next screen (which you have to do > in any design), everything can be made to work. Actually we should be able to make a simple hardware hack (maybe a prom change) to make the board output the correct endpoints. You could do what you like with them at that point. But I thought the idea was to just make the D/A part and output Atari compatible signals. Where'd this idea to throw a processor in there come from anyway??? BTW, a standard floppy drive cable plugs nicely into the CineMonitor connector and has a nice female edge connector on the other end to hook onto the adapter board... So make the adapter plug into the Atari Space Duel harness on one side and take that cable on the other & I'd buy one!! Then I'd finally be able to play the real thing. Space Duel has the advantage of having most of the controls for most of the Cinegames and the added bonus that I've got one ;-) I'm still willing to take a stab at writing menu software for the CineGames if I ever have a working setup... -Paul From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 14:23:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 14:28 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970808022531.0e1f9804@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:05 PM 8/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >I remember that one of the lines was inverted in hardware... I think it >> >was 4:4:4 RGB, but they might have given an extra bit to green and stolen >> >one from blue to make up some of the human visual-range stuff. I don't >> >think so though. >> >> It's 4-B 4-G 4-R, and all the lines are inverted, all zero's being bright >> white, and all ones being black. > >I got a clue and looked at your updated page. It looks more like there >are 3 bits for intensity and one to completely disable the color. It that >a valid interpretation?? Not quite, I only stuck those extra "dim" colors to help indicate which bit is bit-0, I'll have to go back and clear that up. There's a full 16 levels of colors for each gun, black being all one's. The inverted line Clay was referring to was the high bit of the DAC register which is inverted on the C-CPU, so must be un-inverted before using it as a color (whereupon all the bits are inverted). >As for my aliens being white At least my Space War ships are more >than 3 pixels! :-) :-) Good point!!! Uh, er, just think of it as your viewport running at half power. Yeah that's it! "Captain, damage to the main viewing screen!" Running in Window's has it's advantages, you don't have to support a zillion different graphic cards! Windoze does it for you. But hey, except for the re-programming of the palette colors in the Color, and Multi level modes, the emulator would run on a 640x350 EGA! (Like that's an advantage!) I figure to support a zillion cards, since I'm not particularly interested in porting to windoze (though War of the Worlds would make a better screen saver than it does a game), nor writing hardware support for a hundred different chipsets, I'll buy an off the shelf library to finish up that part. BTW: Currently I'm only supporting 16 colors (also for maximum compatibility) so your emulator should also have nicer shades of colors -- for the time being. ;^) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 17:43:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:45:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708080045.UAA16705@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: which encoder wheel? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 07:26 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >>>I wonder what encoder Mad Planets uses. I should go check...the knob is >>>identical to Tempest but I don't know about the internals. >> >>*Doh!* Another one! ;-) Does the Mad Planets gizmo have a "decoder" PCB >>that the spinner talks to? (Or do the quadrature outputs go straight to >>the PCB?) > >Oh, this is interesting...a never-before-seen type of spinner! It's a Wico >product with a red, fully-enclosed plastic casing. In addition to the >spinner shaft sticking out of the top, a small white roller sticks out the >side, so if you mount it 90 degrees off you get a miniature Major >Havoc-style roller controller! Did anyone else use this? > >I can't get into the back of the game right now but there is no PCB between >the controller and the harnessing. Will check later. > >// grigs > > Hey, finally. The spinner you just described is the same as the one used in Aztarac. There's just four wires so it's probably a quadrature output. David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.com | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:07:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:07:16 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Axtarac spiner / joystick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com It appears from the schematics that the encoder in the spinner is the same as the joystick X and Y axis inputs, and they sure look like quadrature inputs... I'll be able to take a closer look at a Mad Planets spinner and schematic next week when the one I just bought gets here.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708080111.VAA19324@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:54 PM 8/6/97 PDT, Zonn wrote: >At 02:25 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >Those things (the LF13331's) are on the top of my "Most likely to die" list. > >Cinematronics did have a replacement for this part since even at the time of >manufactoring they were hard to come by. It required a daughter board, but >according to a tech "he thinks" it was to drop some voltages, and change >pinouts. None of this does anyone any good just yet, because I can't >remember the name of the part. (I can get the name.) > >Either way I saw that there is a description of the circuit on that >StarTech(or something) CD they want $300 or $400 dollars for... It took a while to dig out the box in my attic but I found one of the circuit boards mentioned above attached to a Tailgunner monitor. It's a big board (4" X 5") considering there's only one IC (Harris I1-5045-5) two electrolytics, two 1K resistors and a diode on it. The board looks like a 'last minute' hack. David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.com | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:16:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 18:21 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970808061818.2adfb8d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:11 PM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:54 PM 8/6/97 PDT, Zonn wrote: >>At 02:25 PM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >>> > >>Those things (the LF13331's) are on the top of my "Most likely to die" list. >> >>Cinematronics did have a replacement for this part since even at the time of >>manufactoring they were hard to come by. It required a daughter board, but >>according to a tech "he thinks" it was to drop some voltages, and change >>pinouts. None of this does anyone any good just yet, because I can't >>remember the name of the part. (I can get the name.) >> >>Either way I saw that there is a description of the circuit on that >>StarTech(or something) CD they want $300 or $400 dollars for... > > It took a while to dig out the box in my attic but I found one of the >circuit boards mentioned above attached to a Tailgunner monitor. It's >a big board (4" X 5") considering there's only one IC (Harris I1-5045-5) >two electrolytics, two 1K resistors and a diode on it. The board looks >like a 'last minute' hack. That's it! That's the part number! (Everything Cinematronics did was a last minute hack!) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:20:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:20:00 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: cine monitor watchdog Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com As i've been hacking on the adapter, I came up with a simple watchdog circuit that could be retrofitted on a cine monitor. It's pretty simple, you put tri-state buffers in line with the DAC data and a little 555 timer reset by the "initialize switch" line. If you stop getting "initalize switch" pulses either your CPU is dead, or the monitor is unplugged, and you tristate the buffers. on the DAC side, there is one pull up and 11 pull-down resistors on each DAC which pulls the DACs to the center of the screen.. BTW, it turns out the inputs to the X and Y register MSB's are inverted, so 0,0 in becomes 0x800, 0x800 to the DACs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:21:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708080123.VAA20443@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: fishd Subject: Re: Axtarac spiner / joystick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 06:07 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote: > >It appears from the schematics that the encoder in the spinner >is the same as the joystick X and Y axis inputs, and they sure >look like quadrature inputs... > The designer of Aztarac must have been in love with encoders. The spinner output is quadrature as is the X and Y joystick axis. The top of the joystick looks identical to Gorf's but the bottom has a two axis gimbal assembly which rotates two large (2 1/2" dia.) slotted wheels. The opto-interrupters are on two seperate small PCB's. It's the strangest joystick I've ever seen. David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.com | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:28:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:28:33 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Harris I1-5045-5 hmmmm... HI-5045 is a Dual DPST switch. Is it 16 pins? It is a bit different than the 13331 in that it only has two control inputs instead of four, but it certainly would work.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 18:34:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:34:05 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: HI-5045 pinouts Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com 1, 16 and 3,4 are controlled by 15 5, 6 and 8,9 are controlled by 10 -V on 14 +V on 11 VR on 13 VL on 12 I'll put the pdf of the data sheet up with the others on the schematics page From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 7 20:58:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:58:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970807210007.00572e00@ng.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@ng.netgate.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:00:07 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Re: Axtarac spiner / joystick In-Reply-To: <199708080123.VAA20443@mailrelay.tiac.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > The designer of Aztarac must have been in love with encoders. >The spinner output is quadrature as is the X and Y joystick >axis. The top of the joystick looks identical to Gorf's but >the bottom has a two axis gimbal assembly which rotates two >large (2 1/2" dia.) slotted wheels. The opto-interrupters >are on two seperate small PCB's. It's the strangest joystick >I've ever seen. That's strange...how do you center it? It seems like you'd really have to depend on never losing an edge or you'd drift over time. // grigs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 05:53:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:52:52 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com It looks like AD561's would be another thing to keep an eye open for. The "Low Cost" 10-Bit Monolithic D/A Converter is listed at 38.08 in Newark's latest price list (for the AD561JN plastic part, you don't want to know what they want for the "good" ones..) For comparision, the 12 bit DAC312HP is listed at 7.43. It also looks like the 312 is the cheapest 12 bit DAC you can buy, but it does have to have an external current to voltage converter and voltage reference. I was also comparing the MAX502 that Clay was suggesting that I use with the DAC80 and it appears that you would actually need to use a MAX507 unless you wanted to supply your own reference supply. FWIW, the MAX502 is 11.52 and the MAX507 is 16.24 from Digikey. For comparision, the ADDAC80N-CBI-V, which is a plasic equivalent to the Burr-Brown DAC80's is 19.79. On a completely unrelated note, i've found someone who has the little PC-mount trim pots that the Atari AVG uses, in all three values (200,2k,10k) for .70 in 10's. Circuit Specialists (man, I used to buy stuff from them mail order when I lived in Milwaukee in the late 70's!) www.cir.com/parts/potent/potent.htm ..i've been lookin' for those buggers for a while! From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 06:45:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 06:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708081348.JAA24515@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: amusing prices To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:48:52 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 8, 97 05:52:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > For comparision, the 12 bit DAC312HP is listed at 7.43. It also looks > like the 312 is the cheapest 12 bit DAC you can buy, but it does have > to have an external current to voltage converter and voltage reference. The current to voltage converter isn't a big deal because you'll need an op-amp to get the levels right anyway. You'll actually SAVE a component -- the input resistor to an op-amp is really a voltage-to-current converter. The voltage reference is a bit annoying. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 08:40:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: asteroids schematic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: I was going to reply privately to this, but Al's domain isn't in his message. > in the mean time, you might want to take a look at the Omega Race > schematic at www.spies.com/arcade/simulation/schematics. the omega > race vector generator is almost identical to the atari DVG. Thanks for the suggestion -- now to scroll through the 3 big tiffs . . . -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 08:42:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: asteroids schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com ..and thanks for reminding me about scanning the DVG stuff FWIW, my email adr is aek@spies.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 09:23:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 08 Aug 1997 11:21 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Re: G-05 monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Re: G-05 monitors", you write: >> My question is this: >> Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? > >Someone posted this to RGVAC once, but I don't remember who. I tried a >few months back to find-out who wrote it, but no one admitted to it. I >suppose they were afraid I'd be asking them about my Space War... :-) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >So your Cinematronics/Vectorbeam vector game doesn't work, eh? Maybe I >can help. I wrote it. -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 10:20:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9708081711.AA28198@savage.raleigh.ibm.com> Subject: Re: G-05 monitors To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:11:21 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Gregg Woodcock" at Aug 8, 97 11:21:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1026 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > In message "Re: G-05 monitors", you write: > > >> My question is this: > >> Is there a trouble shooting guide for this monitor anywhere? > > > >Someone posted this to RGVAC once, but I don't remember who. I tried a > >few months back to find-out who wrote it, but no one admitted to it. I > >suppose they were afraid I'd be asking them about my Space War... :-) > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >So your Cinematronics/Vectorbeam vector game doesn't work, eh? Maybe I > >can help. > > I wrote it. Cool! We have a winner... :-) So Greg, when are you going to finish it? If I remember, there were a few sections that were marked as unfinished... :-) Thanks! John +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw@vnet.ibm.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/linvjw | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:20:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:27:06 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I was also comparing the MAX502 that Clay was suggesting that I use >with the DAC80 and it appears that you would actually need to use a >MAX507 unless you wanted to supply your own reference supply. Using your own reference is kinda handy, IMHO. Makes a nice width/height adjustment. >FWIW, the MAX502 is 11.52 and the MAX507 is 16.24 from Digikey. Yep, but the 502 is also *free* for the asking since Maxim is so generous with samples... ;-) WRT the HI3-5045 switches... Maxim makes a cross-- the IH5045. They're $2.44 in 1000's so I'd expect singles from Newark to be in the $6 range? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 11:31 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970808232819.2cef90d2@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:27 AM 8/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I was also comparing the MAX502 that Clay was suggesting that I use >>with the DAC80 and it appears that you would actually need to use a >>MAX507 unless you wanted to supply your own reference supply. > >Using your own reference is kinda handy, IMHO. Makes a nice width/height >adjustment. > >>FWIW, the MAX502 is 11.52 and the MAX507 is 16.24 from Digikey. > >Yep, but the 502 is also *free* for the asking since Maxim is so generous >with samples... ;-) > >WRT the HI3-5045 switches... Maxim makes a cross-- the IH5045. They're >$2.44 in 1000's so I'd expect singles from Newark to be in the $6 range? Of course now your back to the $5.35 range of Digikey for the real thing (the LF13331's). -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:42:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: DVG up on spies Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Just finished the DVG from Asteroids deluxe. It fit on 6 A size sheets.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:52:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:52:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: DVG up on spies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > > Just finished the DVG from Asteroids deluxe. It fit on 6 A size > sheets.. Tell me it's the same circuit as regular Asteroids . . . Please ?? :-) -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:53:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:53:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: DVG up on spies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > > Just finished the DVG from Asteroids deluxe. It fit on 6 A size > sheets.. . . . and thank you very much. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 11:57:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:04:06 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Of course now your back to the $5.35 range of Digikey for the real thing >(the LF13331's). Yep, but I think the HI3-5045 is about $6 too, the difference being that they might be staying in production... Actually, Maxim might make a direct cross for the 13331... Their analog switch line seems pretty expansive now... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 13:00:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: DVG up on spies Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com it should be. i don't have an asteroids print set to check part locations, though. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 13:26:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 13:31 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970809012825.2ca7f69a@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 12:04 PM 8/8/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>Of course now your back to the $5.35 range of Digikey for the real thing >>(the LF13331's). > >Yep, but I think the HI3-5045 is about $6 too, the difference being that >they might be staying in production... Actually, Maxim might make a direct >cross for the 13331... Their analog switch line seems pretty expansive >now... Well the LF13331N available at Digikey are now $7.49 (two months ago they were $5.35), there quantity has dropped from 640 to 348. But like the point Mark made about redesigning the Sega Sound cards, why? He had more than enough Sega sound cards for everyone that wanted one on vectorlist, and at the time he felt he could supply all of RGVAC. 348 LF13331's are admittedly not production quantity, but I'll bet it's enough to fix every Cinematronics monitor owned by every person who will ever read this e-mail. All without designing a daughter board, or hacking your monitor. But to each his own, I suppose if one want's to pay $6 for a part they have to design a daughter board for, along with a couple resistors, a couple of capacitors, and a diode, as opposed to $7.49 for one that simply plugs in... A direct cross is of course another matter... Or are we back to talking about designing a conversion card from scratch? In which case you would be very foolish to design around the LF13331N. I've somehow last track of what this thread is about... 8^/ -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 13:36:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:35:58 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: amusing prices Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com There are multiple threads running (as usual) Zonn. The first was designing an outboard DAC card you you can use a B&W vector monitor with a Cine CPU. I was trying to figure out if I should just stick with the DAC80/LF13331 or use parts that are still in production. I'm also adding the protection circuit I described yesterday and a little latch/prom/DAC circuit which should be able to handle 1,16, or 64 bit B&W Z outputs. Since I was able to find some LF13331's and DAC80's, I'm just going to prototype one board with the existing circuit. The second thread came up with the StarTech article about retrofitting another analog switch into the existing monitor board. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 8 14:01:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:01:08 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: updated timer.tiff scan Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com oops, forgot the Z output circuit in the DVG. I've added it to the vector timer page. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 9 11:19:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 07 Aug 1997 14:50 EDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: Re: cine -> wg adapter Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "cine -> wg adapter", zonn@pop3.concentric.net writes: > vector being drawn. The emulator can feed you vector information in any > format you'd like (including the the *real* vector end points), and as long > as you can refresh the screen before the next screen (which you have to do > in any design), everything can be made to work. How is screen refresh controlled in the current emulator? Could you use the same scheme? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 9 18:38:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal from the analog switches?) I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 06:34:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708111337.JAA29922@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:37:57 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 9, 97 06:38:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the > comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see > pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the > monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) > Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume > it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but > is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal > from the analog switches?) > > I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks about how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all CineMonitors. I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in front of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! BTW, Tail Gunner was the only game to use JUMP EXTERNAL. Space War uses it as an unconditional jump and all the other games have it wired to the sign bit so it's Jump Minus (JMI). Uhhh Zonn what does Speed Freak do with it? I still can't make that run without locking up :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 06:46:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:49:22 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708111349.AA18901@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the > comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see > pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the > monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) > Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume > it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but > is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal > from the analog switches?) > > I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. > I'm not sure about any of the other stuff, but Tailgunner uses a standard Cine monitor. I've got a monitor sitting in storage with Tailgunner burn-in, and it's definitely a standard one (it has the "3rd type" of HV cage -- the gray/black one, but that's its only distinguishing feature from my other Cine monitors.) Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 09:57:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:54:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, Yup, I agree with Joe. I do remember plugging a Star Castle set into a Tail Gunner cabinet and not getting very far, but it didn't have anything to do with the monitorl. When I said I had problems, I'm not talking about incompatible sound boards...I'm talking about the LED on the motherboard staying on! I'll bet this had to do with the JMI wire mod on the Star Castle, but I'll leave it to Paul or Zonn to explain. The sound board to Tail Gunner had a bunch of extra connectors on it. I think it had the 2708 daughter board AND an extra connector for the joystick. Quite a crazy set up...didn't Speed Freak use this for the pot on the steering wheel? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I vaguely remember seeing in the Rip Off manual some lines between the sound board and the mother board being labelled as "Aux" or "Extra" with the implication that they were used in analog to digital conversion. But don't quote me on this...I haven't cracked open a Cinematronics manual in over a year! >---------- >From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com[SMTP:jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com] >Sent: Monday, August 11, 1997 8:49 AM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? > >> I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the >> comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see >> pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the >> monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) >> Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume >> it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but >> is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal >> from the analog switches?) >> >> I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. >> > > I'm not sure about any of the other stuff, but Tailgunner uses a >standard Cine monitor. I've got a monitor sitting in storage with Tailgunner >burn-in, and it's definitely a standard one (it has the "3rd type" of HV cage >-- the gray/black one, but that's its only distinguishing feature from my >other Cine monitors.) > >Joe > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:12:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:18 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970811221444.2dc7d622@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 06:38 PM 8/9/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the >comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see >pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the >monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) >Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume >it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but >is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal >from the analog switches?) > >I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. It does use a slightly modified standard Cine monitor. There is an unpopulated 8 pin DIP socket next to the DAC80 closest to the back of the monitor that contains the feedback from the X-DAC used to determine the joystick position. Basically they routed the monitor's X-DAC back to the sound board. The DAC's output and the output from the Joystick are routed to a comparator, then by setting placing values on the X-DAC you can find the values where the comparator changes state, and from that know its position. I'm assuming they'd do a binary search, but who knows. The slight modification is a jumper(s) on the monitor that routes the +/- 15v to some unsed pins on the 8 pin socket. On the only Tailgunner II I've seen, they had installed an 8 pin socket at the DIP location. On the standard Tailgunners I've seen they simply solder wires to the monitor, saving them the incredible price of an 8 pin DIP socket. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:20:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:26 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970811222251.2dc72bea@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:54 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >Yup, I agree with Joe. I do remember plugging a Star Castle set into a >Tail Gunner cabinet and not getting very far, but it didn't have >anything to do with the monitorl. When I said I had problems, I'm not >talking about incompatible sound boards...I'm talking about the LED on >the motherboard staying on! I'll bet this had to do with the JMI wire >mod on the Star Castle, but I'll leave it to Paul or Zonn to explain. It'll lockup unless you add a jumper on the control panel to indicate the use of an 8 way joystick. I learned this through some mail on RGVAC that Paul posted. At the time I didn't know Tailgunner supported a digital Joystick. Thanks Paul! >The sound board to Tail Gunner had a bunch of extra connectors on it. I >think it had the 2708 daughter board AND an extra connector for the >joystick. I was told by a guy that worked at Cinematronics that the 2708 daughter board was designed to take advantage of the incredibly cheap supply of 2708's that all the suppliers were dumping from their inventory at the time. >Quite a crazy set up...didn't Speed Freak use this for the >pot on the steering wheel? Speed Freak uses an optical decoder on it steering wheel. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:28:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:28:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn said: The slight modification is a jumper(s) on the monitor that routes the +/- 15v to some unsed pins on the 8 pin socket. -- There is a PC layout drawing of the monitor board in the Star Castle board (should have thought of looking at the board layout and not just the schematic, duh..) There is a spot for an 8 pin OP Amp just to the left of the X DAC and it's wired up as a unity gain non-inverting amplifier. The one thing other than installing the part you have to do is install a jumper (or a resistor.. someone with a monitor with these parts populated would have to tell, it's coming off of pin 2 of the 8 pin DIP). I would guess the wire mod brought +/- 15 over to pins 7 and 4 of the OP Amp, respectively. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:40:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:46 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970811224229.2f2ffddc@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:37 AM 8/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >> I was just trying to figure out where the XDAC output signal for the >> comparitors used for the joystick A/D is generated, and I don't see >> pin 16 of the monitor connector hooked up to anything on any of the >> monitor schematics that I have (I don't have a Tailgunner manual..) >> Could someone take a look and tell me how it is interfaced (I assume >> it's somewhere between the DAC output and the analog switches, but >> is there a buffer or anything used to isolate the off-card signal >> from the analog switches?) >> >> I was also curious what kind of Cine monitor Tailgunner uses. > >I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks about >how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog >inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all CineMonitors. >I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in front >of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the >X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! > >BTW, Tail Gunner was the only game to use JUMP EXTERNAL. Space War uses >it as an unconditional jump and all the other games have it wired to >the sign bit so it's Jump Minus (JMI). Uhhh Zonn what does Speed Freak >do with it? I still can't make that run without locking up :-) I'm a little confused about the "unconditional jump" use in Space War. A read once (on RGVAC) that you found this to be the case, but I couldn't find the jump used anywere in the code. I placed breakpoints in my emulator on the jump external instruction, and I never found it. I then burned some Space War ROMs and place them in an unmodified Star Castle board and they ran just fine. Also looking at the schematic, the external input is not pulled hi or low. Though TTL usually pulls itself high if left floating, this seems like a pretty risky thing to be basing the game code on -- though it might be pulled high on the sound board, I didn't check. The version of Space War I was using was from a Vectorbeam, not Cinematronics. It makes me wonder if Cinematronics changed the real jump unconditional instructions to the jump on external input, to distinguish the code from Vectorbeam's. I assume they would add a jumper on the sound board to pull this input high all the time, if this were not already being done. The biggest problem I see from people that have tried running Space War on a Star Castle (or whatever board) is they don't check to make sure DIP switches 3 through 7 are turned off. Space War uses these switches as inputs from the control panel and turning these on causes some (appearently) unpredictable behaviour. As for Speed Freak, It doesn't seem to matter as to the state of the JMI, so I assume it doesn't use this instruction either. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:43:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:49 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970811224558.2dc75004@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:28 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Zonn said: > >The slight modification is a jumper(s) on the monitor that routes the +/- >15v to some unsed pins on the 8 pin socket. > > >-- > >There is a PC layout drawing of the monitor board in the Star Castle >board (should have thought of looking at the board layout and not >just the schematic, duh..) > >There is a spot for an 8 pin OP Amp just to the left of the X DAC >and it's wired up as a unity gain non-inverting amplifier. The one >thing other than installing the part you have to do is install a >jumper (or a resistor.. someone with a monitor with these parts >populated would have to tell, it's coming off of pin 2 of the 8 >pin DIP). > >I would guess the wire mod brought +/- 15 over to pins 7 and 4 of >the OP Amp, respectively. It's interesting that they laid out the socket for a OP-AMP. I've never seen an op-amp installed there, they just use that socket to plug in a cable that leads back to the sound board. Makes you wonder what their original intent was? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:47:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:47:49 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com It's interesting that they laid out the socket for a OP-AMP. I've never seen an op-amp installed there, they just use that socket to plug in a cable that leads back to the sound board. Makes you wonder what their original intent was? --- I would assume they would be trying to provide isolation of the DAC output from the capacitance of the cable and the loading of the comparitors. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 10:59:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 11:05 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970811230135.0d272d34@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:47 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >It's interesting that they laid out the socket for a OP-AMP. I've never >seen an op-amp installed there, they just use that socket to plug in a cable >that leads back to the sound board. Makes you wonder what their original >intent was? > > >--- > >I would assume they would be trying to provide isolation of the DAC output >from the capacitance of the cable and the loading of the comparitors. But then were would the cable be connected? (Or maybe there's some extra holes on the monitor, that I've never looked for, that would be there for the cable connections). -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 11:34:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hmm..that's weird. The schematics for TG show XDAC out going to the CPU board, then through the CPU over to J4 pin 4 where it goes to the audio board. The comparitor output comes back on J4 pin 10, which is the compare bit. It doesn't show another cable going up to the monitor.. Maybe they bypassed the loop-through on the CPU? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 12:37:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:44:06 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Monitor capacitor failure analysis... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Have any of you ever taken any temperature measurements in an "average" cabinet around the color WG monitor chassis and actually worked through the life expectancy of "new" caps? (follow the temperature and aging stats of the cap to whatever is considered a "failure" point?) Kind-of an MTBF, but only on the parts in a Zanen "get well" kit... I couldn't help but have my eye caught by the "miniature hour meter" on the cover of a BG Micro catalog for $7.95 a pop... It'd be kinda neat to say how many hours have been on a monitor since it was "recapped", but it'd be most useful if we had some guestimate as to when the "next service" would best be carried out... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 13:03:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <33EF6FF4.C618AA3C@telis.org> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:03:00 -0700 From: Bill Esquivel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199708111337.JAA29922@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Paul Kahler wrote: > > > I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks > about > how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog > > inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all > CineMonitors. > I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in > front > of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the > X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! Ok, I don't know much, but The sitdown taligunner I have uses a vectorbeam monitor. The upright uses the cinematronic one. For some reason, my buddie could not make the cinematronic tube work in the sitdown. Might have had different connectors or something. LAter, Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 13:34:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:40 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812013629.38d7ccec@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:03 PM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Paul Kahler wrote: > >> >> >> I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks >> about >> how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog >> >> inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all >> CineMonitors. >> I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in >> front >> of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the >> X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! > >Ok, I don't know much, but The sitdown taligunner I have uses a >vectorbeam monitor. The upright uses the cinematronic one. For some >reason, my buddie could not make the cinematronic tube work in the >sitdown. Might have had different connectors or something. LAter, Bill The Vectorbeams all had 5v regulators on the monitor, the Cinematronics used the 5v supplied from the power supply. The Vectorbeams used smaller connectors for there power (9 pins), the Cinematronics used 12 or 15 pins (I can't remember). It's possible to make a simple Cinematronics game to Vectorbeam monitor adapter, since it's just a matter of *not* connecting the 5v -- you do have to be careful on which ground wires to connect or you might lose you filament volage. It's a little harder to make a Vectorbeam game (like Tailgunner II) to Cinematronics monitor (like Tailgunner upright) adapter, since 5v will have to be found somewhere. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 13:38:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:44 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812014113.36a74002@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:34 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hmm..that's weird. The schematics for TG show XDAC out going to the CPU >board, then through the CPU over to J4 pin 4 where it goes to the audio >board. The comparitor output comes back on J4 pin 10, which is the compare >bit. It doesn't show another cable going up to the monitor.. Maybe they >bypassed the loop-through on the CPU? There's definitly wires coming from the monitor's little 8 pin DIP socket to the sound board (Four I believe: +15v, -15v, GND, DAC-Out). The the comparator's output is brought over to the CPU on the sound card ribbon cable. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 13:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:46:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Zonn, Thanks for sorting out one of my outstanding questions! I've had a 9 pin monitor for a while, but I didn't know why it was that way? Maybe you could answer one of my other outstanding quesitons. Why does a Warrior power supply have a 15 pin connector? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Monday, August 11, 1997 3:40 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? > >At 01:03 PM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Paul Kahler wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks >>> about >>> how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog >>> >>> inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all >>> CineMonitors. >>> I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in >>> front >>> of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the >>> X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! >> >>Ok, I don't know much, but The sitdown taligunner I have uses a >>vectorbeam monitor. The upright uses the cinematronic one. For some >>reason, my buddie could not make the cinematronic tube work in the >>sitdown. Might have had different connectors or something. LAter, Bill > >The Vectorbeams all had 5v regulators on the monitor, the Cinematronics used >the 5v supplied from the power supply. The Vectorbeams used smaller >connectors for there power (9 pins), the Cinematronics used 12 or 15 pins (I >can't remember). > >It's possible to make a simple Cinematronics game to Vectorbeam monitor >adapter, since it's just a matter of *not* connecting the 5v -- you do have >to be careful on which ground wires to connect or you might lose you >filament volage. > >It's a little harder to make a Vectorbeam game (like Tailgunner II) to >Cinematronics monitor (like Tailgunner upright) adapter, since 5v will have >to be found somewhere. > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 15:28:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 11 Aug 1997 17:23 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor?", you write: >At 11:34 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Hmm..that's weird. The schematics for TG show XDAC out going to the CPU >>board, then through the CPU over to J4 pin 4 where it goes to the audio >>board. The comparitor output comes back on J4 pin 10, which is the compare >>bit. It doesn't show another cable going up to the monitor.. Maybe they >>bypassed the loop-through on the CPU? > >There's definitly wires coming from the monitor's little 8 pin DIP socket to >the sound board (Four I believe: +15v, -15v, GND, DAC-Out). The the >comparator's output is brought over to the CPU on the sound card ribbon cable. Be aware that the (TG2)joystick also gets its voltages from that spot! I had one of the regulators go bad and EVERYTHING worked pretty good (good sound, good picture, good gameplay) except the joystick was dead. I though it was -12VDC it was missing but I could be wrong. -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 17:07:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:40 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812013629.38d7ccec@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:03 PM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Paul Kahler wrote: > >> >> >> I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks >> about >> how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog >> >> inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all >> CineMonitors. >> I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in >> front >> of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the >> X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! > >Ok, I don't know much, but The sitdown taligunner I have uses a >vectorbeam monitor. The upright uses the cinematronic one. For some >reason, my buddie could not make the cinematronic tube work in the >sitdown. Might have had different connectors or something. LAter, Bill The Vectorbeams all had 5v regulators on the monitor, the Cinematronics used the 5v supplied from the power supply. The Vectorbeams used smaller connectors for there power (9 pins), the Cinematronics used 12 or 15 pins (I can't remember). It's possible to make a simple Cinematronics game to Vectorbeam monitor adapter, since it's just a matter of *not* connecting the 5v -- you do have to be careful on which ground wires to connect or you might lose you filament volage. It's a little harder to make a Vectorbeam game (like Tailgunner II) to Cinematronics monitor (like Tailgunner upright) adapter, since 5v will have to be found somewhere. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 17:09:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:44 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812014113.36a74002@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:34 AM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hmm..that's weird. The schematics for TG show XDAC out going to the CPU >board, then through the CPU over to J4 pin 4 where it goes to the audio >board. The comparitor output comes back on J4 pin 10, which is the compare >bit. It doesn't show another cable going up to the monitor.. Maybe they >bypassed the loop-through on the CPU? There's definitly wires coming from the monitor's little 8 pin DIP socket to the sound board (Four I believe: +15v, -15v, GND, DAC-Out). The the comparator's output is brought over to the CPU on the sound card ribbon cable. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 11 17:13:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:46:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Zonn, Thanks for sorting out one of my outstanding questions! I've had a 9 pin monitor for a while, but I didn't know why it was that way? Maybe you could answer one of my other outstanding quesitons. Why does a Warrior power supply have a 15 pin connector? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Monday, August 11, 1997 3:40 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? > >At 01:03 PM 8/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Paul Kahler wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I thought that was standard. The motherboard pattent actually talks >>> about >>> how to use this along with the JUMP-EXTERNAL instruction to get analog >>> >>> inputs. I assumed this means the signal is present from all >>> CineMonitors. >>> I'm sure I've seen what you're looking for, but I don't have it in >>> front >>> of me right now. Funny how they decided ahead of time to route the >>> X-Position to the sound board via the motherboard! >> >>Ok, I don't know much, but The sitdown taligunner I have uses a >>vectorbeam monitor. The upright uses the cinematronic one. For some >>reason, my buddie could not make the cinematronic tube work in the >>sitdown. Might have had different connectors or something. LAter, Bill > >The Vectorbeams all had 5v regulators on the monitor, the Cinematronics used >the 5v supplied from the power supply. The Vectorbeams used smaller >connectors for there power (9 pins), the Cinematronics used 12 or 15 pins (I >can't remember). > >It's possible to make a simple Cinematronics game to Vectorbeam monitor >adapter, since it's just a matter of *not* connecting the 5v -- you do have >to be careful on which ground wires to connect or you might lose you >filament volage. > >It's a little harder to make a Vectorbeam game (like Tailgunner II) to >Cinematronics monitor (like Tailgunner upright) adapter, since 5v will have >to be found somewhere. > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 06:41:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708121345.JAA25517@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:45:10 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970811224229.2f2ffddc@pop3.concentric.net> from "Zonn" at Aug 11, 97 10:46:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > >BTW, Tail Gunner was the only game to use JUMP EXTERNAL. Space War uses > >it as an unconditional jump and all the other games have it wired to > >the sign bit so it's Jump Minus (JMI). Uhhh Zonn what does Speed Freak > >do with it? I still can't make that run without locking up :-) > > I'm a little confused about the "unconditional jump" use in Space War. > > A read once (on RGVAC) that you found this to be the case, but I couldn't > find the jump used anywere in the code. I placed breakpoints in my emulator > on the jump external instruction, and I never found it. I then burned some > Space War ROMs and place them in an unmodified Star Castle board and they > ran just fine. So you've got Vectorbeam Space War roms eh?? The Cinematronics version uses the jump-external instruction and assumes it always jumps. I tried running the emulator with a patch to change these to a regular jump and saved the images - this produced something that seemed to run OK while emulating a Star Castle board. Someone (I think Sean Riddle?) was going to test these on real hardware and I never heard how it went. So what does a guy have to do to get Vectorbeam rom data? This would slightly simplify our emulator code :-) > Also looking at the schematic, the external input is not pulled hi or low. Are you sure? I thought there was a pullup right near the jump condition selector. Near the jumper that switches it to JMI. ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 10:21:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 10:26 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812222314.2c97187a@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Tailgunner has a special monitor? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:45 AM 8/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >BTW, Tail Gunner was the only game to use JUMP EXTERNAL. Space War uses >> >it as an unconditional jump and all the other games have it wired to >> >the sign bit so it's Jump Minus (JMI). Uhhh Zonn what does Speed Freak >> >do with it? I still can't make that run without locking up :-) >> >> I'm a little confused about the "unconditional jump" use in Space War. >> >> A read once (on RGVAC) that you found this to be the case, but I couldn't >> find the jump used anywere in the code. I placed breakpoints in my emulator >> on the jump external instruction, and I never found it. I then burned some >> Space War ROMs and place them in an unmodified Star Castle board and they >> ran just fine. > >So you've got Vectorbeam Space War roms eh?? The Cinematronics version >uses the jump-external instruction and assumes it always jumps. I tried >running the emulator with a patch to change these to a regular jump and >saved the images - this produced something that seemed to run OK while >emulating a Star Castle board. Someone (I think Sean Riddle?) was going >to test these on real hardware and I never heard how it went. So what does >a guy have to do to get Vectorbeam rom data? This would slightly simplify >our emulator code :-) The ROM data I found on the NET matched my version of Space War, either way I'll send you an E-mail package, (I'd use UPS, but the strike and all...) > >> Also looking at the schematic, the external input is not pulled hi or low. > >Are you sure? I thought there was a pullup right near the jump condition >selector. Near the jumper that switches it to JMI. I was really sure until I read this sentence. I went over this pretty carefully wondering how Cinematronics could justify using the JEI (Jump on External Input) instruction, without risking crashes and I couldn't find a pullup. But as I said earlier I never checked the sound card. Of course now I'll have to go home and check the sound card & the CPU, I'll let you know. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 11:00:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 11:06 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812230253.2db7c984@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: ***START OF BLATANT PLUG*** Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com This list seems more geared towards hardware than software, but just to let you know I've just released a new version of my Cinematronics emulator that supports the mouse on Tailgunner, Boxing Bugs, and Speed Freak. If you've never played Boxing Bugs you should check it out. It's very playable with a mouse (It'd be a *lot* more playable if you hacked in an optical shaft encoder in place of the X-axis of the mouse!). So maybe this'll help motivate work on a Cine -> WG card and a universal sound board?? :^) -Zonn http://www.concentric.net/~Zonn ******END OF BLATANT PLUG****** From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 11:06:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:05:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:05:55 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: ***START OF BLATANT PLUG*** Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com "So maybe this'll help modtivate work on a Cine -> WG card and a universal sound board ?? :^)" Were there any adjustment pots for the clipping circuit, or any pots at all on the BB color card? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 11:57:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 12:03 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970812235958.306fb730@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: ***START OF BLATANT PLUG*** Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:05 AM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >"So maybe this'll help modtivate work on a Cine -> WG card and a > universal sound board ?? :^)" > >Were there any adjustment pots for the clipping circuit, or >any pots at all on the BB color card? There are many: There are the standard for pots that are the same as those on the Cinematronics B&W monitor, Width, Height, X-length and Y-length. There are two pots for vertical centering, and horizontal centering. There is one pot for adjusting the Pin-cussioning needed for the WG monitor, this circuit is similar to Atari's except is adjustable so that it may be turn off for Amplifone monitors. There are pots for linearity adjustments, this circuit much nicer than the Atari circuit. According to a technition that worked at Cinematronics at the time, they had as hard a time finding those VDR's that Atari used then, as we do now, so they used a couple of op-amps (of course -- there are many op-amp on the board) to do the same thing for each axis. There are three pots for Red, Green, and Blue contrast control. There are two pots used to set the clipping individually for the X and Y axis. What a pain huh? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 12 19:40:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970812194142.005763d0@ng.netgate.net> X-Sender: grigsby@ng.netgate.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:41:42 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: The Grigsbeast Subject: Re: Boxing Bugs In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970812230253.2db7c984@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >If you've never played Boxing Bugs you should check it out. It's very >playable with a mouse (It'd be a *lot* more playable if you hacked in an >optical shaft encoder in place of the X-axis of the mouse!). Boxing Bugs, despite being a silly idea with terrifyingly lame intermission screens, is actually a reasonably fun game to play. It's also hard as hell, even with a proper controller -- I can't imagine playing one with the mouse. The cannon/boxing glove aiming duality was just a little too cosmic for me to get over about 60K or so. I'm glad the ROM dump was finally of some use >:^) // grigs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 13 15:15:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:15:13 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: HP panel-mount encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I ran into the guy that I bought the little HP encoders from last year at the montly flea market, and he still has about 30 of them for $5 ea if anyone is interested. They are the same size as a panel-mount pot and produce 256 pulses/rev. They have two quadrature leads, +5, and gnd. I'll see if I can find them in an HP opto catalog. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 13 16:03:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: sean@pop Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:01:21 -0400 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Sean Trowbridge Subject: Atari sound info needed for emulator Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hey folks, I've written a vector game emulator for the Macintosh called Vectorama. It currently emulates atari 6502 based games. Anyway, I've just added sound support for most games, implemented by emulating the atari "pokey" chip. However, some sounds are still missing. This includes all sounds for Asteroids & Lunar Lander, and explosion/thrust type sounds in Battlezone, Red Baron, and Gravitar (and possibly others that I'm not aware of). I believe that these are generated by analog sound circuitry, but I don't have access to any schematics of those games so I can't be sure. In fact I'm working purely from memory, so I don't even remember what the exact sounds are supposed to be. So, I'm hoping some of you might be able to provide me with some details of the sound circuitry of those machines, or perhaps a recording of the sound of those machines so I can dummy something up which sounds at least fairly accurate. Can anybody help me out? Thanks, Sean P.S. If you want to try the emulator out, it's available at www.emulation.net, under "vector games". Sean Trowbridge Visix Software Inc sean@visix.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 10:19:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Mad Planets encoder Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I picked up the Mad Planets from that Countryman sent me yesterday, which had the manual inside of it. I will have the schematic for the spinner interface up on spies in a couple of minutes. If someone has a Reactor manual, i'd be intersted in getting a copy of the trackball interface drawing.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 10:31:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 10:37 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970814223344.302f6f04@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: HP panel-mount encoders Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:15 PM 8/13/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I ran into the guy that I bought the little HP encoders from last year >at the montly flea market, and he still has about 30 of them for $5 ea >if anyone is interested. They are the same size as a panel-mount pot >and produce 256 pulses/rev. They have two quadrature leads, +5, and gnd. >I'll see if I can find them in an HP opto catalog. FYI: I tore into my Cosmic Chasm last night and the part number of the optical encoder was "something, something - 256 - 5". My guess is that indicates the encoder is 256 pulses per revolution. It was made by some local (to San Diego) company call DISC or something. I could imagine the HP controllers being nicer. I seem to recall that Boxing Bugs uses the same encoder, but it was a little harder to tear into so I didn't do it last night. I've had the Boxing Bugs encoder apart and my guess at the time was 256 pulses per rev. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 12:45:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <33F35FE7.FA7BC28F@telis.org> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:43:36 -0700 From: Bill Esquivel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: I have a reactor manual X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I have a reactor manual handy. I can send you a scan. My only problem is I can't seem to figure out how to make nice scans. at 100 dpi and saving as a gif file, an 8x10 scan is like 500k in 256 color mode. I will sace this as line art, but it still will be large. Howe do people make sharp looking scans that are only 75k? LAter, Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 13:11:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Subject: Re: I have a reactor manual To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:37:20 -0600 (MDT) From: "Kurt Mahan" In-Reply-To: <33F35FE7.FA7BC28F@telis.org> from "Bill Esquivel" at Aug 14, 97 12:43:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <33f36c800.15c6@bolt.usg.provo.novell.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 400 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > I have a reactor manual handy. I can send you a scan. My only problem is > I can't seem to figure out how to make nice scans. > at 100 dpi and saving as a gif file, an 8x10 scan is like 500k in 256 > color mode. I will sace this as line art, but it still will be large. > > Howe do people make sharp looking scans that are only 75k? LAter, Bill I send the original paper version to Al.. :) Kurt From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 14:35:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:35:46 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: PIC on speed... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I dunno if anyone other than Zonn will like this, but since some of us are using PIC's for various projects... Check out www.parallaxinc.com and look at the "SX Key" announcements. It's a 16C54 (PIC) compatible chip, with 10 new instructions, Flash memory with *in-circuit* programmability, source/sink 30mA per pin, analog comparator, 2K words Flash, 136 words RAM, internal oscillator at 4MHz, External *50MHz* clock optional w/ 1 cycle per instruction, 12mA @ 50MHz at 5V. Development system with full-speed ICE is $249. I think I'm in love. Also in the kinda interesting department-- Microchip has on their website an application note for an ADPCM decoder on a PIC which is kinda neat... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 14:52:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708142150.QAA02464@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 16:52:30 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: PIC on speed... References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > Also in the kinda interesting department-- Microchip has on their website > an application note for an ADPCM decoder on a PIC which is kinda neat... Since we are rapidly moving from vectorlist to piclist, here is a quickie web site for us PIC newbies. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/ Obligatory vector stuff: my star wars has a WG and the bowing is drivng me nuts. Find an ampliphone or wait for a linear correction module? Does the apliphone have other distinguishing characteristics that make more desireable that the WG? (Question that has been asked many times, but I didn't care until recently ;-) Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 14:52:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970814145111.006a89b8@mage.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: wpaul@mage.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:51:11 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Bill Paul Subject: Re: I have a reactor manual In-Reply-To: <33F35FE7.FA7BC28F@telis.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 12:43 PM 8/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have a reactor manual handy. I can send you a scan. My only problem is >I can't seem to figure out how to make nice scans. >at 100 dpi and saving as a gif file, an 8x10 scan is like 500k in 256 >color mode. I will sace this as line art, but it still will be large. > >Howe do people make sharp looking scans that are only 75k? LAter, Bill > Save it as a .tif file with LZW compression. (I know Zonn, .zip is smaller, but who wants to unzip it?) ;) -BP From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 15:03:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:08 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970815030608.2ea7b5ce@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: PIC on speed... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:52 PM 8/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >You wrote: >> Also in the kinda interesting department-- Microchip has on their website >> an application note for an ADPCM decoder on a PIC which is kinda neat... > >Since we are rapidly moving from vectorlist to piclist, here is a quickie web >site for us PIC newbies. > >http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/ > >Obligatory vector stuff: my star wars has a WG and the bowing is drivng me >nuts. Find an ampliphone or wait for a linear correction module? Does the >apliphone have other distinguishing characteristics that make more desireable >that the WG? (Question that has been asked many times, but I didn't care until >recently ;-) Except for the HV transformers going out, it's all around a better design. It comes with a med res tube, as opposed to the low res WG tube. You can hack one of the med res tubes and yoke into the WG and your bowing will go away. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 15:11:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:15 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970815031331.2ea74bba@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: PIC on speed... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:35 PM 8/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >I dunno if anyone other than Zonn will like this, but since some of us are >using PIC's for various projects... > >Check out www.parallaxinc.com and look at the "SX Key" announcements. > >It's a 16C54 (PIC) compatible chip, with 10 new instructions, Flash memory >with *in-circuit* programmability, source/sink 30mA per pin, analog >comparator, 2K words Flash, 136 words RAM, internal oscillator at 4MHz, >External *50MHz* clock optional w/ 1 cycle per instruction, 12mA @ 50MHz at >5V. Development system with full-speed ICE is $249. Very cool! It turns out the place I'm currently working also has an in house ASIC designed PIC clone that runs faster, leaps higher, normally desguised as Clark Kent...but is opcode equivalent to the PIC, with extra opcodes added as needed. The PIC is basically a bit sliced processor that must be pretty easy to duplicate. (Ours is not nearly as nice as the one Clay mentions!) So I imagine the ICE could be used to debug standard PIC chips? Very cool. Is Microchip about to discontinue the 16x5x series? Or was that some wild rumor a friend of mine heard... >I think I'm in love. Take a cold shower Clay! You're making me nervous! ;^) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 15:33:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: reactor tb schematic up Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com ..and it looks like a two channel version of the spinner board (..fancy that?) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 15:33:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:37 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970815033553.11277fd2@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: PIC on speed... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:35 PM 8/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >I dunno if anyone other than Zonn will like this, but since some of us are >using PIC's for various projects... > >Check out www.parallaxinc.com and look at the "SX Key" announcements. > >It's a 16C54 (PIC) compatible chip, with 10 new instructions, Flash memory >with *in-circuit* programmability, source/sink 30mA per pin, analog >comparator, 2K words Flash, 136 words RAM, internal oscillator at 4MHz, >External *50MHz* clock optional w/ 1 cycle per instruction, 12mA @ 50MHz at >5V. Development system with full-speed ICE is $249. I just checked out the web site. What is it with Parallax and there rewriting of the PIC opcodes? It looks like their development system only supports there re-writing of the assembler to the "Intuitive Intel like instructions". For one I've never found the Intel instructions to be anymore intuitive than anyone else's, and for two, the last time I looked at the Parallax instruction set I thought I read that there was not always a 1 to 1 correspondence of mnemonic to opcode, some mnemonics generating more that one opcode. If find that especially irritating... Sorry, I just had to bitch. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 14 22:36:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:36:33 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: prototype PC boards Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com a friend of mine back home forwarded this to me, and I thought it might be of interest To: aek@wiretap.spies.com CC: aek@spies.com Subject: cheap proto boards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO The place to check out for quick cheap proto circuit boards is www.apcircuits.com. Free DOS tools. Rectangular boards only (no router cuts) No silk or mask. Caution! prices listed are Canadian $. The equivalent US prices are less. Have not had a chance to look for SC-01 data yet. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 15 00:08:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Cine service notes scanned in Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Got the stuff from Kurt today, so I scanned in the service notes, which includes the schematic of the analog sitch daughter card. I also scanned in the stuff in the Tailgunner and Tailgunner II manuals that wasn't duplicated in another manual. I have the web links set up for the service notes, and will take care of the others tomorrow morning. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 15 11:01:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Sega HV output transistor Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I've never had to dig into a G08 HV section before, so I hadn't noticed they don't give part numbers for the horiz output transisitor. What have people been using for replacements? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 16 05:13:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:52:24 +0100 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Trollian Subject: Vector list woes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970814145111.006a89b8@mage.qualcomm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.01 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi all, This is my first post to the list and just want to know who amongst you has the largest vector collection and which games? How about posting you stock lists? I am desperatley looking for Cinematronics, Vectorbeam, Rock-ola games here in the UK as some I remember seeing/playing in my younger years. I have seen Star Castle, Armor Attack, Speed Freak & Star Hawk but no others. Following up a previous thread (they do get a bit out of hand..don't they) I have heard of a color vector game which was sited in Canada which was similar to Centipede .Anybody else seen/heard of it? BTW is the mailing list specificaly hardware based? If so I apologise in advance for this posting. All the best from England ! XY-Man (Manchester U.K.) ________________________________________________________________ /\ XY-Man email - $200 Paid! ) /__________\_\ All Atari promotional items/paperwork ________________________________________________________________ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 16 12:14:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: broker scum Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Xy-man said: This is my first post to the list and just want to know who amongst you has the largest vector collection and which games? How about posting you stock lists? --- I also just saw your posting about you selling $3000 Star Wars games to people... Don't expect any deals here, jack.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 16 21:46:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:46:31 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Aztarac schematics Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I scanned in the schematics tonight, they're up on www.spies.com/arcade/schematics From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 15:53:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: AM6012 source Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I turned this up late last week. Just In Time Electronics (510)490-1377, they're on the web, too, has some 6012's for 4.68. I was able to get 10 for 4.20. They also have some of the Cine monitor transistors: 2N5322 1.40 2N5320 .87 2N5550 .19 2N2102 .65 2N5210 .19 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 16:11:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:11:35 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Well, I really don't need 6 tubes, and it looks like we're starting to bid against each other, so, who need what? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 16:34:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:36:53 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708182336.AA21489@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Well, I really don't need 6 tubes, and it looks like we're > starting to bid against each other, so, who need what? > Heh...Paul just said that you upped it to $250, Al! This is getting a bit out of control (for all we know there may be 6 dead tubes in those monitors.) I actually need a bunch of that stuff, but if it'll make us all get along (and save us all some $$,) I could settle for 1 or 2 WG monitors, 1 WG Def. Board, 1 W.G. HV unit (with the HV transformer,) 1 G0-8. I'd easily give up claim to one of those WG monitors if someone has an Amplifone tube (with the mounting brackets) and a SPARE set of mounting brackets for an Amplifone. I'd actually be very happy with just that stuff. Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 16:39:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com And I'm trying to get one bloody G08 working! "NeatOStuff@aol.com" posted a NOS Star Trek kit for $400 and I was going to buy it just for the G08 (bastard has flaked, though..) looks like he's part of the "Stone Mt, GA" gang :-( ..BTW, I'm still trying to figure out what to replace the HOT in a G-08 with.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 17:22:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:22:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > ..BTW, I'm still trying to figure out what to replace the HOT in a G-08 > with.. What is the HOT ? (I just worked on a G-05, don't know how similar they are). -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 18 17:25:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com chris said: "What is the HOT ?" ..sorry, Horizontal Output Transistor (which is a misnomer, of course..) G-08's are more like WG 6100's and Ampliphones than G-05's (it's a color vector display used in Sega games) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 06:41:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:40:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708191328.IAA14432@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 08:28:10 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > And I'm trying to get one bloody G08 working! "NeatOStuff@aol.com" posted > a NOS Star Trek kit for $400 and I was going to buy it just for the G08 > (bastard has flaked, though..) looks like he's part of the "Stone Mt, GA" > gang :-( Hmm...sounds familiar. Mike Mixon cashed my $400 check for the same item last November then disappeared. Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 07:16:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:16:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:16:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708190916.ZM23645@calcite> In-Reply-To: Ray Ghanbari "Re: Frazee's XY auction" (Aug 19, 8:28am) References: <199708191343.JAA25965@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 8:28am, Ray Ghanbari wrote: > Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction > You wrote: > > And I'm trying to get one bloody G08 working! "NeatOStuff@aol.com" posted > > a NOS Star Trek kit for $400 and I was going to buy it just for the G08 > > (bastard has flaked, though..) looks like he's part of the "Stone Mt, GA" > > gang :-( > > Hmm...sounds familiar. Mike Mixon cashed my $400 check for the same item last > November then disappeared. Well, according to newsgroup posts, NeatOStuff@aol.com *is* Mike Mixon. Time to send a "friendly reminder"... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 07:27:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I was just getting ready to copy the tail gunner 2 manual that was on loan, and I noticed the adr on the manual: EXIDY II 33441 Central Avenue Union City, CA 94587 (one of these days, i'll drive over there any see if the building still exists...) anyway.. anyone who has a Vectorbeam manual might notice a very similar address (and phone number :-) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 08:40:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:38:45 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Al (and all), Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). Zonn, is Al's discovery taken into account in your/Bill's Cinematronics history doc? And if not, could you forward it to Bill if he's responsible for updates to it? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 9:27 AM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: interesting coincidence.. > > >I was just getting ready to copy the tail gunner 2 manual that was >on loan, and I noticed the adr on the manual: > >EXIDY II >33441 Central Avenue >Union City, CA 94587 > >(one of these days, i'll drive over there any see if the building > still exists...) > >anyway.. anyone who has a Vectorbeam manual might notice a very >similar address (and phone number :-) > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:03:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Frazee's XY auction Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:00:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Ray (and all), Having been on sabatical for part of the Two Bit Kid fiasco, I didn't get the whole story. Did the same person resurface as Mike Mixon (and now NeatOJunk)? There's always been talk of a "deadbeat's list", but whenever the discussion turns to "when can a person's name be put on the list" suddenly the idea becomes much more complicated. Maybe we need to be putting people's general address on a list? For instance, instead of "Two Bit Kid" or "Mike Mixon" we'd put "Stone Mt, GA". Obviously, the approach doesn't work very well for the biggest metropolitans like the Bay Area where some towns might have a dozen arcade collectors. But in small towns and even larger towns like Santa Barbara, CA and Thousand Oaks, CA, it would be more difficult for these deadbeats to dupe people. AND, now people can't complain about accidentally being put on the list since only communities are being listed....in fact, there'd be local pressure by other collectors on the deadbeats not to wreck the dealings of everyone in that community! Sure the deadbeats could get a PO Box in the next town or have the checks sent to a friend, but now these deadbeats are going through great efforts to dupe people. And if their friends are becoming accessories to the crimes! What do you all think....should we trial something like this on vectorlist or is this outside the scope of this mailing list? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Ray Ghanbari[SMTP:ray@mayo.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 8:28 AM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction > >You wrote: >> And I'm trying to get one bloody G08 working! "NeatOStuff@aol.com" posted >> a NOS Star Trek kit for $400 and I was going to buy it just for the G08 >> (bastard has flaked, though..) looks like he's part of the "Stone Mt, GA" >> gang :-( > >Hmm...sounds familiar. Mike Mixon cashed my $400 check for the same item >last >November then disappeared. > >Ray > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:18:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:18:26 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:27:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:30:13 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708191630.AA23837@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. > I can add Chris Griffin (Beeblebrox.) Even though I didn't get screwed by him, I was REALLY lucky. I was about to send off for a Side Arms board he was selling. Instead, I got all tied up with my moving to TX from PA, and didn't send the check (I guess that kind of makes me a deadbeat.) Once I got settled in TX, I tried to get in touch with him, but I found out that he had already "gone bad" and run off with people's money. Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:32:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:32:10 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:31:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com cc: vectorlist@jubal.westnet.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. This brings up a somewhat related thought that has been on my mind -- is this list archived anywhere ? Why does it bring it up ??? The problem with blacklists is acountability. One method of solving this would be to create a mailing list, something like arcade-trade, or arcade-problems, which would have a searchable archive. If I wanted to trade with person X, I could search the archive and find comments, good and bad, about the person. Right now, it seems people do something similar, searching DajaNews for rgvac postings. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:34:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com This brings up a somewhat related thought that has been on my mind -- is this list archived anywhere ? www.spies.com/arcade/vectorlist is the archive for this list From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:34:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I'm about to give up on a Joust II board from Zack Blackstone, too, come to think of it.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:37:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Has anyone ever tried tracking him down to interview him? There are about 180 Larry Rosenthals doing a Yahoo search. One appears to work for Sierra Systems in Oakland, and there is a listing for one in La Mesa. After Vectorbeam and Cine merged, I don't know if he moved down there or not. I'm mostly curious about prototype Vectorbeam games (obviously..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:40:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:43:07 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708191643.AA23908@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > I'm about to give up on a Joust II board from Zack Blackstone, too, > come to think of it.. > For what it's worth, I just spoke to him yesterday. He claims that this is his week off, and he'll be shipping stuff out. I have some big bucks tied up in an I, Robot game that he's supposed to be shipping to me, so I'll keep y'all informed. Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:44:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970819114358.0090b640@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:44:00 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:18 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: > >The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. > Would that Rocky happen to be: Rocky Palmisano 5304 1/2 Belle Terre Rd. Marrero, La 70072 If so, I hope I don't regret sending him 20 bucks for a Tac/Scan manual and shemactics this morning... Couldn't ya'll had this conversion yesterday? mit also: I was thinking of getting the color xy's from Paul, but all I really need is a G08 and a Wells. Anybody want to work a deal still? Or are we going to go head to head :( From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:44:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: tail gunner II cover scan Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I just remebered that when I scanned in the tail gunner and tail gunner II drawings that I also scanned in the covers.. so if anyone is curious about EXIDY II, the scan is on the web page. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:48:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708191647.MAA01112@mail.atl> From: "Retrodaddy" To: Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:52:05 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com suddenly the idea becomes much more complicated. Maybe we need to be > putting people's general address on a list? For instance, instead of > "Two Bit Kid" or "Mike Mixon" we'd put "Stone Mt, GA". > Obviously, the approach doesn't work very well for the biggest > metropolitans like the Bay Area where some towns might have a dozen That would be a problem with this case as well. Stone Mountain is located near Atlanta. There are at least 50 cities that I can think of that would be within a 1/2 hour drive. Make a deadbeat list. If someone does not like it, let them fix the problem that got them there. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:50:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:51:28 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Blacklist... Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I for one like Steve's idea, but it might be tough for some to swallow. ("Unreliable sez' who!??!?!!") How about something like this: Imagine a webpage attached to a database. The database contains (nominally) a first/last name field(s), a "good" field, a "neutral" field, a "bad" field, and "submitter" field. So, I just bought something from Paul F and I'm happy with the transaction, so I go to the webpage and submit a: Frazee, Paul:good:clay@supra.com (through a form on the webpage) Paul's entry shows one more "good" transaction, and my name. Now when Al wants to buy something from Paul, he goes to the webpage and enters "Frazee, Paul" and clicks 'lookup' (or whatever). Up pops: Name Good Neutral Bad Paul Frazee 1 0 0 The idea being that people can kinda "vote" their experiences into the database. Attaching an e-mail address could be used in a couple ways-- only allow one vote per e-mail address (last vote takes precedence), and/or have a "detail" checkbox that shows the e-mail addresses by category or something: Name Good Neutral Bad Paul Frazee 1 - - clay@supra.com - 2 - al@spies.com, ray@mayo.edu So that will discourage trying to "stuff" the ballot box. Good can be defined as something like "transaction completed as agreed", Neutral as "transaction not exactly as agreed, but acceptable" (slow to ship, dead on arrival and swapped for another unit that worked, etc.), Bad as "transaction not completed as agreed". Whatcha think? (I'm open to take this discussion elsewhere so we don't clutter up vectorlist... It's just that we get all the good ideas in here and the S/N ratio is better than the newsgroup anymore...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 09:53:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:53:41 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com also: I was thinking of getting the color xy's from Paul, but all I really need is a G08 and a Wells. Anybody want to work a deal still? Or are we going to go head to head :( This is a drag because all of the stuff is in unknown condition, it's going to be >$100 to ship, and for all any of us know it may all be trash. I guess I'm the high bidder right now at $250. What I would do if I get the lot is go through the whole pile and figure out the condition of everything, then sell off (almost) the whole lot to (hopefully) get a working G08 HV assy. The REAL drag is I have a G08 coming some day from MIGGS in totally unknown condition from the Star Trek he just parted out. It will be my luck that the only thing dead in it will be the HV cage :-( One thing i'm tempted to do with Frazee is tell him to trash the CRTs (saving the yokes) on these if they're burned in. That should at least get the shipping down to <$100 and save me the hassle of shipping / disposing of a bunch of useless glass.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:04:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:04:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708191204.ZM26759@calcite> In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Blacklist..." (Aug 19, 9:51am) References: <199708191652.MAA12068@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Blacklist... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 9:51am, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Blacklist... > Name Good Neutral Bad > Paul Frazee 1 - - clay@supra.com > - 2 - al@spies.com, ray@mayo.edu > > So that will discourage trying to "stuff" the ballot box. > > Good can be defined as something like "transaction completed as agreed", > Neutral as "transaction not exactly as agreed, but acceptable" (slow to > ship, dead on arrival and swapped for another unit that worked, etc.), Bad > as "transaction not completed as agreed". > > Whatcha think? I think maybe expanding it a bit more for "exceptional" and "Not recommended" would be nice, but I like the idea so far. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:08:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708191208.ZM26826@calcite> In-Reply-To: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) "Re: deadbeat list" (Aug 19, 11:44am) References: <199708191646.MAA11604@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-Face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 11:44am, Mit Matelske wrote: > Subject: Re: deadbeat list > At 09:18 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > >The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. > > > > Would that Rocky happen to be: > > Rocky Palmisano > 5304 1/2 Belle Terre Rd. > Marrero, La 70072 > > If so, I hope I don't regret sending him 20 bucks for a Tac/Scan manual and > shemactics this morning... > > Couldn't ya'll had this conversion yesterday? You're kidding, right? I sent him a money order for $15 for a Tac/Scan manual almost a year ago, and he never sent it and never responded to further e-mails. This is the same guy! What's his new e-mail address? ________________ ______ ___ _____ __ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ jenison@cig.mot.com /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| ________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:09:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970819100809.007466d0@mage.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: wpaul@mage.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:08:09 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Bill Paul Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com So Steve, I guess you need to spell it out for me. What's the discovery here? It is currently reflected on the web page that Tailgunner II was made by Exidy. Is this the same address for Vectorbeam or something? I'm not sure exactly what you want me to change on the web page, so let me know. At 08:38 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day Al (and all), > >Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). > >Zonn, is Al's discovery taken into account in your/Bill's Cinematronics >history doc? And if not, could you forward it to Bill if he's >responsible for updates to it? > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > >>---------- >>From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 9:27 AM >>To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >>Subject: interesting coincidence.. >> >> >>I was just getting ready to copy the tail gunner 2 manual that was >>on loan, and I noticed the adr on the manual: >> >>EXIDY II >>33441 Central Avenue >>Union City, CA 94587 >> >>(one of these days, i'll drive over there any see if the building >> still exists...) >> >>anyway.. anyone who has a Vectorbeam manual might notice a very >>similar address (and phone number :-) >> > > ---------------------------------------------- Bill Paul bpaul@qualcomm.com Q-161A2 619-658-3741 http://people.qualcomm.com/wpaul/ ---------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:13:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com ..and Rocky got me for a $15 Space Encounter manual (that someone else gave me a copy of a few months later) his answering machine message is a real treat too.. For the record, Zack Blackstone's number is 714 899 8843 He claimed to be on vacation two weeks ago when I talked to him and he gives you a choice on his answering machine if you want to leave a good message or a bad message (I opted for the good message, which he never returned..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:14:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com So Steve, I guess you need to spell it out for me. What's the discovery here? It is currently reflected on the web page that Tailgunner II was made by Exidy. Is this the same address for Vectorbeam or something? I'm not sure exactly what you want me to change on the web page, so let me know. sorry I was being vague... yes, it is the same address and phone number as Vectorbeam. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:22:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher X. Candreva" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Blacklist... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Imagine a webpage attached to a database. The database contains > (nominally) a first/last name field(s), a "good" field, a "neutral" field, > a "bad" field, and "submitter" field. > [...] Basicly the same idea I was shooting for with the searchable mailing list archive. The mailing list allowed for more information, which could be a bad thing actually. Further explination on the mailing list:For several mailing lists I run, I use a program called hypermail that turns a mailbox format archive file into hyperlinked web pages, then index that with freewais. -Chris ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:22:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:22:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708191222.ZM27081@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek@motgate.mot.com (Al Kossow) "Re: deadbeat list" (Aug 19, 10:13am) References: <199708191715.NAA13666@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 10:13am, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: Re: deadbeat list > ..and Rocky got me for a $15 Space Encounter manual (that someone else > gave me a copy of a few months later) > > his answering machine message is a real treat too.. > > For the record, Zack Blackstone's number is 714 899 8843 > He claimed to be on vacation two weeks ago when I talked to him > > and he gives you a choice on his answering machine if you want > to leave a good message or a bad message (I opted for the good > message, which he never returned..) I never understand the mind set of people like Zack. Does he just hope everyone will forget? Is he too cowardly to face the music? What does it take to call someone back and say "I'm sorry about taking so long on shipping the item, I'll get it out on my week off"? I'll admit I'm not perfect either, but I always apologize and make the effort. It's just good business. I've always been pro on making a referal sheet, so I designate Clay to make one on his home page (project #182 for Clay ;-)). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:24:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708191724.NAA13933@mail.atl> From: "Retrodaddy" To: Subject: Re: Blacklist... Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:29:01 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Frazee, Paul:good:clay@supra.com (through a form on the webpage) > Paul's entry shows one more "good" transaction, and my name. > Now when Al wants to buy something from Paul, he goes to the webpage and > enters "Frazee, Paul" and clicks 'lookup' (or whatever). > Up pops: > Name Good Neutral Bad > Paul Frazee 1 0 0 I am no web guru, but would not mind maintaining a html list of good traders. I could just take an email from people that have done a deal, and place it on the page, showing their experience, good or bad. Then, post a link to the reply from the person involved if they are accused of being a bad trader/seller. That way, if someone is accused, they have the opportunity to try and exhonerate themselves, or ignore the situation and confirm the accusation. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:34:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <33F9E663.6B7A@willowtree.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:30:59 -0600 From: Todd Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list References: <9708191643.AA23908@maileng3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Joseph J. Welser wrote: > > > I'm about to give up on a Joust II board from Zack Blackstone, too, > > come to think of it.. > > > > For what it's worth, I just spoke to him yesterday. He claims that > this is his week off, and he'll be shipping stuff out. > I had some trade with Zack also, after about 7 months of me nagging him, I finally received my boards, he even tossed in a few extras for my inconvenience. I'd stay away from Gary/Gene Crouch, thats another deal that took 6 months to resolve, only after filing a postal fraud claim. I'm not comfortable 'bad-mouthing' anyone, as I don't really know them...just my personal experience's with them. Todd From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:37:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708191645.LAA25379@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 11:45:28 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > Having been on sabatical for part of the Two Bit Kid fiasco, I didn't > get the whole story. Did the same person resurface as Mike Mixon (and > now NeatOJunk)? I'm fairly certain it was a different person. Also, I bend over *way* backwards to give people the benefit of the doubt (I've never posted a "deadbeat" name to RGVAC, and brought it up here only because Al was trying to buy something I paid for and never received). For the record, Mike and I did exchange e-mail in February, where we agreed that he would refund my $400. I consider Al purchasing the kit as legit. I'm just looking to get my $$ back eventually (yes, I did e-mail a gentle reminder to NeatOJunk) Only other person I have a long-standing open account with is Jeff Anderson (mayday19, and a contributor to this list). I consider that situation an act of active neglect, rather than any intention to screw someone (similar to the Mixon situation). I think he just doesn't want to deal with what remains of our agreement, which is unfortunate. (jeff, if you still read this list, please contact me) In general, I have been fortuate to have dealt with very honest and very supportive folks. I would hope that we don't try to segment the community too much by maintaining a deadbeat list. The benefit may not outweigh the loss in trust and mutual support. I think Clay's "People I've had good experiences with" page is a more positive way to do things (esp. since I'm on it ;-) My 2000 millicents Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:42:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 10:40 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970819223805.39efc00e@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 08:38 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day Al (and all), > >Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). > >Zonn, is Al's discovery taken into account in your/Bill's Cinematronics >history doc? And if not, could you forward it to Bill if he's >responsible for updates to it? > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com Exidy was the marketer of Tailgunner II, and it used all Vectorbeam parts. I'm sure the history talks of Exidy being the marketer, I'm not sure who manufactured it, I'm assuming Exidy here also. I can check to see if Bills history mentions Vectorbeam (as opposed to Cinematronics) as the parts supplier. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:46:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:45:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708191245.ZM27381@calcite> In-Reply-To: Ray Ghanbari "Re: Frazee's XY auction" (Aug 19, 11:45am) References: <199708191739.NAA15448@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 11:45am, Ray Ghanbari wrote: > Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction > > In general, I have been fortuate to have dealt with very honest and very > supportive folks. I would hope that we don't try to segment the community too > much by maintaining a deadbeat list. The benefit may not outweigh the loss in > trust and mutual support. I think Clay's "People I've had good experiences > with" page is a more positive way to do things (esp. since I'm on it ;-) I tried to find Clay's referal page, but I couldn't find it...I think he removed it. And what became of your weekly mystery photo? I liked that idea! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:46:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:46:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708191750.NAA32185@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:50:25 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 19, 97 09:37:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Has anyone ever tried tracking him down to interview him? There > are about 180 Larry Rosenthals doing a Yahoo search. One appears > to work for Sierra Systems in Oakland, and there is a listing > for one in La Mesa. After Vectorbeam and Cine merged, I don't > know if he moved down there or not. > > I'm mostly curious about prototype Vectorbeam games (obviously..) I sent him some e-mail a couple years ago when I first got Star Castle running on my PC. I first sent a message to verify that I had the right guy before I started talking about stuff. I had asked if he was the Larry Rosenthal who had worked for Cinematronics or Vectorbeam. His response was that "yes, he was the one who OWNED vectorbeam. What do you want?" I sent a second message describing a little of what was going on and he never wrote back again. I've also heard from people that Larry doesn't have very fond memorys of those days. Everyone I've talked to indicated that Larry didn't make out like a bandit (as the history on Zonn's page tells it) but that he was more like fucked-up-the-ass-with-no-lube by Cinematronics. He wasn't getting much for holding the pattents on the hardware or writing Space War, so he took all the documentation (thereby screwing Cinematronics) and formed Vectorbeam. I don't recall if there was a lawsuit involved, but when Vectorbeam went under, Cinematronics bought the remains for a song leaving Larry with not much for all his efforts. One source said that while Cinematronics bought Vectorbeam (or something to that effect) it was the owners of Cinematronics that bought the pattents from Larry. This allowed them to personally collect royalties while Cinematronics was going down the shitter. Sources.... Hmmm I gained some of this from people on the net, but the most important parts were obtained or at least supported through talking to Tim Skelly and Scott Boden - both of whom were paid poorly by Cinematronics for writing... well you know... As for prototype games, Scott said he might have some old roms lying around somewhere for one or 2 things. He either couldn't find them or didn't look real hard :-) He's busy now being the owner of his own company on the west coast. Tim doesn't have any roms. And I don't think Larry has anything at all, as it would only serve to rimind him of a time he'd rather forget. BTW, Tim and Scott have both seen early versions of our emulator and were amused. They also appreciate the fact that people still love and play their games. SeeYa, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:49:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:47:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Bill (and all), Yes, the addresses of Vectorbeam and Exidy are the same implying that maybe Larry made a deal with Exidy when he split away from Cinematronics. This would certainly explain why the lawyers were brought in by Cinematronics to shut down Larry and Vectorbeam! Nothing pisses your previous company more than going to the competitors with your bread-and-butter architecture. Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - Maybe the rumor mill will confirm my speculation? >---------- >From: Bill Paul[SMTP:bpaul@qualcomm.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 12:08 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. > >So Steve, I guess you need to spell it out for me. What's the discovery >here? It is currently reflected on the web page that Tailgunner II was made >by Exidy. Is this the same address for Vectorbeam or something? >I'm not sure exactly what you want me to change on the web page, so let me >know. > >At 08:38 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >>G'day Al (and all), >> >>Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >>Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >>assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >>USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >>Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). >> >>Zonn, is Al's discovery taken into account in your/Bill's Cinematronics >>history doc? And if not, could you forward it to Bill if he's >>responsible for updates to it? >> >> Steven S Ozdemir >> sso@dsc.com >> >>>---------- >>>From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 9:27 AM >>>To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >>>Subject: interesting coincidence.. >>> >>> >>>I was just getting ready to copy the tail gunner 2 manual that was >>>on loan, and I noticed the adr on the manual: >>> >>>EXIDY II >>>33441 Central Avenue >>>Union City, CA 94587 >>> >>>(one of these days, i'll drive over there any see if the building >>> still exists...) >>> >>>anyway.. anyone who has a Vectorbeam manual might notice a very >>>similar address (and phone number :-) >>> >> >> >---------------------------------------------- >Bill Paul bpaul@qualcomm.com >Q-161A2 619-658-3741 >http://people.qualcomm.com/wpaul/ >---------------------------------------------- > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:57:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:58:09 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I've always been pro on making a referal sheet, so I designate Clay to make one >on his home page (project #182 for Clay ;-)). You know, I used to have one of those... So did Steve Eisner. Problem is that people tend not to update their *own* web pages very often. That's why I was keen on the database concept with people just adding a "vote", that way nobody really needs to administer the page real actively. Beggars can't be choosers though, eh? Whoever picks up the ball on this one gets to run the show. ;-) Oh, BTW, I've almost got two projects cleared off the list-- the AstroBlaster hacks are done, and my two-chip raster monitor tester is 100% debugged now! (After a year. Yeah, I can be pretty slow. It does a convergence/linearity grid, RGB purity screens, and colorbars. Should sell for less than $30. ;-) Next up are getting Ray's Stuff sent (I packed one box already Ray!) and finishing the G-80 Multigame ASAP. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 10:58:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:58:49 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I've also heard from people that Larry doesn't have very fond memorys of those days. .... I've received some private mail about Larry's feelings. Looks like that's a rock i'd better not turn over. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:04:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: deadbeat list Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:02:10 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, I may regret admitting this, but I'll say that I take my time in shipping. However, the reason that you've never heard a complaint from me is that I'm VERY up front about my procrastination AND I've never missed a deadline. For example, I'll say up front that I'll get something shipped to the buyer's doorstep two months from today. More often than not, I'll ship it early and the person is pleasantly surprised (rather than pissed off as one might expect) when it arrives on their door step six weeks after we agreed on the deal! Seems like the real trick to dealing on RGVAC is setting a person's expectations. Of course, I don't mind when a deal falls through because someone has to have it ASAP, won't agree to my lengthy shipping process and goes to another seller. My record is taking 1.5 years to get Astro Fighter boards to Doug Jefferys. Of course, I should also say that I gave them free to Doug, and he said all along that he didn't mind when they got to him. Now, back to your regular Zack bashing.... Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Mark Jenison[SMTP:jenison@cig.mot.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 12:22 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: deadbeat list > >I never understand the mind set of people like Zack. Does he just hope >everyone will forget? Is he too cowardly to face the music? What does it >take >to call someone back and say "I'm sorry about taking so long on shipping the >item, I'll get it out on my week off"? > >I'll admit I'm not perfect either, but I always apologize and make the >effort. > It's just good business. > >I've always been pro on making a referal sheet, so I designate Clay to make >one >on his home page (project #182 for Clay ;-)). > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:07:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com "Next up are getting Ray's Stuff sent (I packed one box already Ray!) and finishing the G-80 Multigame ASAP. .. and now that I have some G-05's I can get the DAC board done. being dense, it didn't occur to me until I was driving into work this morning that the obvious place for the TailGunner A/D would be on this adapter board (need to put it someplace) I was also wondering what the clipping behaviour is when a vector 1) goes offscreen and 2) is completely off screen on Boxing Bugs? Does it leave the output to the deflection amp at the point where it clipped (then what to you do in the totally off-screen case) or does it move the beam to the lowest current position (0,0)? Seems like leaving it at full X or Y deflection for any length of time while drawing off screen would be a BAD THING.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:08:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: deadbeat list Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:06:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, Maybe I didn't make my point clearly. No names, just locales on the list. Let peer pressure work for RGVAC as upstanding collectors in the same locale make personal visits (perhaps to collect long overdue Tac Scan manuals) in hopes of preserving the good name of their community! As one person pointed out, in major metropolitans it might be "a half hour drive to the next town" to escape the deadbeat list. But I think there's some ironic justice that a deadbeat (trying to get around the deadbeat list) would have to drive a half hour to pick up his mail, to send what little they do actually send or instead chose to involve a friend from a neighboring city in their crimes! (And it won't be long before the neighboring city is added to the deadbeat list, eh?) As to voting, seems like alot of work. I certainly have no intention of being the maintainer of something that contravertial! Given enough time, I'll bet the maintainer would end up in hotter water than the rec.humor.funny moderator!! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I think any approach to a deadbeat list will suffer from not being "accountable". At some point, someone is going to be stepped on and it could quite possibly be my name on that deadbeat list for the wrong reasons. These are the risks of life....sometimes things that are good for the community aren't fair to the individual (and sometimes the individual is going to be me.). From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:12:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970819131230.009424e0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:12:31 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 12:08 PM 8/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Aug 19, 11:44am, Mit Matelske wrote: >> Subject: Re: deadbeat list >> At 09:18 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. >> > >> >> Would that Rocky happen to be: >> >> Rocky Palmisano >> 5304 1/2 Belle Terre Rd. >> Marrero, La 70072 >> >> If so, I hope I don't regret sending him 20 bucks for a Tac/Scan manual and >> shemactics this morning... >> >> Couldn't ya'll had this conversion yesterday? > >You're kidding, right? I sent him a money order for $15 for a Tac/Scan manual >almost a year ago, and he never sent it and never responded to further e-mails. > This is the same guy! What's his new e-mail address? > >________________ ______ ___ _____ __ > / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ >Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ >jenison@cig.mot.com /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / >Sega XY FAQ author /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| >________________ The One and Only 4-player vector game > > LT1Stroker@aol.com Life is a bitch.... mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:17:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:17:16 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Rocky's phone number Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com This was a message from about a year ago, that has his phone number. I have no idea if it still is valid. Subject: News about Rocky Palmisano Date: 27 Aug 1996 09:04:47 -0700 Organization: Zippo Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4vv6av$qpa@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.shellus.com After reading some of the messages about Rocky and how he's ripping off people here in the group I got concerned and went by his house yesterday afternoon after work but it didn't look like anyone was home. I couldn't find his girlfriend's number so I wasn't able to get in touch with him yesterday. But earlier this morning I got a call from Rocky and he asked me to post a message to the group to let you all know what's happened to him. He's alive and well and have been working offshore (Gulf of Mexico) for the past few weeks. He doesn't have net access there so he couldn't respond to anyone. He also said that he tried to install Windows 95 on his PC at home before he left but something went wrong and wiped out his harddrive (I can just hear the comments about Win 95 coming) So, Rocky is still currently offshore and will not be back until sometimes next week. He said that he'll mail the rest of the stuff out asap when he gets back into town. Since he cannot access his mailbox to retrieve the information about who bought what, he asks for anyone to please give him a call at home if you haven't received your stuff. His home # is 504-348-7289. It'll be sometimes next week before he can repond to your calls. I hope this info is of some help. Wade ep60wtu@shellus.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:22:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:23:12 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >I tried to find Clay's referal page, but I couldn't find it...I think he >removed it. I looked at it and noticed that the most up to date it was when I first met Werner (more than a year ago) so I pulled it... >And what became of your weekly mystery photo? I liked that idea! I'm still doing that, but Tara took the camera out on "girls night out" and (don't ask how) lost the battery for it, so the film is stuck inside until I get another battery. (Which of course is some bizarro custom Kodak *thing*...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:25:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 20:24:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970819132458.009478e0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:25:00 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Rocky's phone number Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:17 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: > >This was a message from about a year ago, that has his phone >number. I have no idea if it still is valid. > >Subject: News about Rocky Palmisano >Date: 27 Aug 1996 09:04:47 -0700 >Organization: Zippo >Lines: 27 >Message-ID: <4vv6av$qpa@lex.zippo.com> >NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.shellus.com > > >After reading some of the messages about Rocky and how he's ripping off >people here in the group I got concerned and went by his house yesterday >afternoon after work but it didn't look like anyone was home. I couldn't >find his girlfriend's number so I wasn't able to get in touch with him >yesterday. > >But earlier this morning I got a call from Rocky and he asked me to post >a message to the group to let you all know what's happened to him. > >He's alive and well and have been working offshore (Gulf of Mexico) for the >past few weeks. He doesn't have net access there so he couldn't respond to >anyone. He also said that he tried to install Windows 95 on his PC at home >before he left but something went wrong and wiped out his harddrive (I can >just hear the comments about Win 95 coming) > >So, Rocky is still currently offshore and will not be back until sometimes >next week. He said that he'll mail the rest of the stuff out asap when he >gets back into town. Since he cannot access his mailbox to retrieve the >information about who bought what, he asks for anyone to please give him a >call at home if you haven't received your stuff. His home # is 504-348-7289. >It'll be sometimes next week before he can repond to your calls. > >I hope this info is of some help. > >Wade >ep60wtu@shellus.com > Sorry, should have included it to begin with. He gave it as: 504-340-1814 mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:26:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970819112628.006a8ac4@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: luna@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:26:32 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Chris.Hanks" Subject: Re: deadbeat list (Zach) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com wrote: >For the record, Zack Blackstone's number is 714 899 8843 >He claimed to be on vacation two weeks ago when I talked to him > >and he gives you a choice on his answering machine if you want >to leave a good message or a bad message (I opted for the good >message, which he never returned..) I've had two dealings with Zach Blackstone, and both deals were 2-3 months old before a couple of forceful phone-calls pushed him into mailing my goods. He takes much too long to finish his deals and has a really bad habit of not returning e-mails. For those reasons, I won't be dealing with him again. YMMV, Chris. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:43:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 11:48 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970819234559.39cf82fe@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:50 PM 8/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Has anyone ever tried tracking him down to interview him? There >> are about 180 Larry Rosenthals doing a Yahoo search. One appears >> to work for Sierra Systems in Oakland, and there is a listing >> for one in La Mesa. After Vectorbeam and Cine merged, I don't >> know if he moved down there or not. >> >> I'm mostly curious about prototype Vectorbeam games (obviously..) > > I sent him some e-mail a couple years ago when I first got Star Castle >running on my PC. I first sent a message to verify that I had the right >guy before I started talking about stuff. I had asked if he was the >Larry Rosenthal who had worked for Cinematronics or Vectorbeam. His >response was that "yes, he was the one who OWNED vectorbeam. What do >you want?" I sent a second message describing a little of what was >going on and he never wrote back again. > I've also heard from people that Larry doesn't have very fond memorys >of those days. Everyone I've talked to indicated that Larry didn't make >out like a bandit (as the history on Zonn's page tells it) It's not my page, only my ISP... >but that he >was more like fucked-up-the-ass-with-no-lube by Cinematronics. He wasn't >getting much for holding the pattents on the hardware or writing Space >War, so he took all the documentation (thereby screwing Cinematronics) and >formed Vectorbeam. I don't recall if there was a lawsuit involved, but >when Vectorbeam went under, Cinematronics bought the remains for a song >leaving Larry with not much for all his efforts. One source said that >while Cinematronics bought Vectorbeam (or something to that effect) it >was the owners of Cinematronics that bought the pattents from Larry. This >allowed them to personally collect royalties while Cinematronics was >going down the shitter. > Sources.... Hmmm I gained some of this from people on the net, but the >most important parts were obtained or at least supported through talking >to Tim Skelly and Scott Boden - both of whom were paid poorly by >Cinematronics for writing... well you know... > As for prototype games, Scott said he might have some old roms lying >around somewhere for one or 2 things. He either couldn't find them or >didn't look real hard :-) He's busy now being the owner of his own >company on the west coast. Tim doesn't have any roms. And I don't think >Larry has anything at all, as it would only serve to rimind him of a time >he'd rather forget. > BTW, Tim and Scott have both seen early versions of our emulator and were >amused. They also appreciate the fact that people still love and play their >games. I think Bill did talk to Scott Boden, but most of his communications were from more of the hardware side of things, and from people who worked at Cinematronics slightly after the Cinematronics/Vectorbeam split. The only person who had any ROMs was a technician, who had many of the already discovered ROM images, he also had Sundance, a pre-production version of Armor Attack -- where the only differences found was the Morse Code at the start, and he did have a test ROM written for him to help test the WG monitors using the Cine->WG conversion board. (I'll look for the latter and upload them somewhere, Hey Al, can I stick the images on 'spies'? They're not copyrighted or anything, they were just something Scott whipped up for this technician as a favor.) It certainly sounds like the people who left Cinematronics had a different view of the Vectorbeam/Cinematronics split than those who stayed. Can someone hack into these guys old bank statements and get the truth here? (Joking! Are they're any FBI informants on this list?) As for "poor ol' Larry". Get over it Larry! Geeze! It's been twenty frickin' years since you designed and built Space War! I have had some pretty bad experiences in my life, everyone has. Move on! Take your place as the Hardware/Software Guru that gave us "Space War" one of the all time classic video game that is still one of the most fun to play! Don't worry... Be happy... (It's ok Larry I won't charge you for this session, just don't let it happen again, next time I'll have to charge you.) -Dr. Zonn -- Classic Game Physiologist Phd. PS: Uh maybe I shouldn't be the one to get in touch with Larry huh? I hate when people I admire go moping around feeling sorry for themselves! From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:47:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 11:52 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970819234943.3ae76204@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com, "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" From: Zonn Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 10:47 AM 8/19/97 -0700, Ozdemir, Steve wrote: >G'day Bill (and all), > >Yes, the addresses of Vectorbeam and Exidy are the same implying that >maybe Larry made a deal with Exidy when he split away from >Cinematronics. This would certainly explain why the lawyers were >brought in by Cinematronics to shut down Larry and Vectorbeam! Nothing >pisses your previous company more than going to the competitors with >your bread-and-butter architecture. This all maybe true, but who wrote Tailgunner? Cinematronics or Vectorbeam? Was Exidy blatantly stealing software written by Cinematronics programmers, or vica-versa with Cinematronics blatantly stealing Vectorbeam code? If Exidy was the international manufacturer of Cinematronics games, as you say, then it doesn't sound like Vectorbeam was the one to "bring bread-and-butter architecture" to Exidy. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:48:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hey Al, can I stick the images on 'spies'? They're not copyrighted or anything, they were just something Scott whipped up for this technician as a favor. ----- email it to me, and i'll put them up by the schematics From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:50:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:52:43 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708191852.AA24718@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > The only person who had any ROMs was a technician, who had many of the > already discovered ROM images, he also had Sundance, a pre-production > version of Armor Attack -- where the only differences found was the Morse > Code at the start, and he did have a test ROM written for him to help test > the WG monitors using the Cine->WG conversion board. (I'll look for the > latter and upload them somewhere, Hey Al, can I stick the images on 'spies'? > They're not copyrighted or anything, they were just something Scott whipped > up for this technician as a favor.) I had heard about this. Doesn't the Morse code say "Atari Sucks" or something like that, or is this just a vector game urban legend... Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 11:58:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:01 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970819235923.3ae75df8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: deadbeat list Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:07 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >"Next up are getting Ray's Stuff sent (I packed one box already Ray!) and >finishing the G-80 Multigame ASAP. > >.. > >and now that I have some G-05's I can get the DAC board done. being >dense, it didn't occur to me until I was driving into work this morning >that the obvious place for the TailGunner A/D would be on this adapter >board (need to put it someplace) > >I was also wondering what the clipping behaviour is when a vector 1) goes >offscreen and 2) is completely off screen on Boxing Bugs? Does it leave >the output to the deflection amp at the point where it clipped (then what >to you do in the totally off-screen case) or does it move the beam to >the lowest current position (0,0)? You set the clipping levels to clip just outside the screen. As a vector is drawn off the edge of the screen it hits the clip edge and moves no farther. Moving it to 0,0 at this point would cause a line to be drawn to the 0,0. As soon as the line is done being drawn it's up to the software to move the trace to the new location wherever that may be. The X/Y must be able to withstand a beam being drawn to it's edge or it's not going to be much of a monitor. The clipped lines in the Cine->WG convertor allow the program to draw whatever they want on/off screen without damage to the monitor. Atari on the otherhand do a similar thing with the Tempest zooms without the clipping -- which drives the deflections circuits way off the screen. In talking to a few operators I've been told a WG monitor in a Star Wars machine last *much* longer than the same monitor running Tempest. >Seems like leaving it at full X or Y deflection for any length of time >while drawing off screen would be a BAD THING.. Leaving the deflection anywhere but 0,0 for any length of time is a bad thing. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 12:00:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 19 Aug 1997 13:57 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "RE: interesting coincidence..", you write: >G'day Al (and all), > >Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). I though it was well known that TailGunner II was licensed to Exidy. The deal was Cinematronics did the upright and some other company got the license to do the cocktails and sit-ins. In this case, Exidy got to do TailGunner and they decided to tack on the "II" to the name. In the case of cocktails, I belive Centur did them, right? -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 12:22:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:27 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970820002445.23d756d8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:52 PM 8/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >> The only person who had any ROMs was a technician, who had many of the >> already discovered ROM images, he also had Sundance, a pre-production >> version of Armor Attack -- where the only differences found was the Morse >> Code at the start, and he did have a test ROM written for him to help test >> the WG monitors using the Cine->WG conversion board. (I'll look for the >> latter and upload them somewhere, Hey Al, can I stick the images on 'spies'? >> They're not copyrighted or anything, they were just something Scott whipped >> up for this technician as a favor.) > > I had heard about this. Doesn't the Morse code say "Atari Sucks" or >something like that, or is this just a vector game urban legend... That's what the technician said about the proto-type roms, but when we had a Ham radio friend listen to the prototype (who's very good with morse code), all it was saying was "C-I-N-E-M-A-T-R-O-N-I-C-S" over and over in *really bad* morse code. I guess the spacing between characters was awful. We didn't have the real ROMs at the time, so maybe the ones that were released say "Atari Sucks!" anybody know morse code that owns an Armor Attack? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 12:23:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:28 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970820002537.39cf0e26@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:57 PM 8/19/97 CDT, you wrote: >In message "RE: interesting coincidence..", you write: > >>G'day Al (and all), >> >>Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >>Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >>assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >>USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >>Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). > >I though it was well known that TailGunner II was licensed to Exidy. >The deal was Cinematronics did the upright and some other company got >the license to do the cocktails and sit-ins. In this case, Exidy got to >do TailGunner and they decided to tack on the "II" to the name. In the >case of cocktails, I belive Centur did them, right? Yup, I've seen the flyer. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 12:35:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970819123353.00606008@mage.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: wpaul@mage.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:33:53 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Bill Paul Subject: Re: whereabouts of Larry Rosenthal In-Reply-To: <9708191852.AA24718@maileng3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:52 PM 8/19/97 -0500, jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) wrote: > I had heard about this. Doesn't the Morse code say "Atari Sucks" or >something like that, or is this just a vector game urban legend... > >Joe That's what the Joe (the Cinematronics tech) remebered also, so we set out to verify this. We first checked the original ROMs that were shipped with the machine, and it turns out be be random dashes and dots, no real letters. The prototype ROMs had actual morse characters at about 15 words per minute that would send "C-I-N-E-M-A-T" then the next time, "R-O-N-I-C-S-C" and then "I-N-E-M-A-T-R", and so on. So it seems to be a rotating buffer of 7 characters with "Cinematronics" eventually spelled out. Being that Joe was under the impression that it said something about Atari, I almost wonder if the programmer talked about it, but never did it. I guess we can file it under urban legend. -BP ---------------------------------------------- Bill Paul bpaul@qualcomm.com Q-161A2 619-658-3741 http://people.qualcomm.com/wpaul/ ---------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 13:25:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Chris Cope Message-Id: <199708192024.OAA23749@flatland.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:24:53 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ozdemir, Steve" at Aug 19, 97 09:00:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > > There's always been talk of a "deadbeat's list", but whenever the > discussion turns to "when can a person's name be put on the list" > suddenly the idea becomes much more complicated. Maybe we need to be > putting people's general address on a list? For instance, instead of > "Two Bit Kid" or "Mike Mixon" we'd put "Stone Mt, GA". > > Obviously, the approach doesn't work very well for the biggest > metropolitans like the Bay Area where some towns might have a dozen > arcade collectors. But in small towns and even larger towns like Santa Stone Mtn is spittin' distance to Atlanta, so it would be very easy for them to change cities there, too. But I suppose it would be inconvenient at least. Chris Cope From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 13:52:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:52:34 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Stone Mtn is spittin' distance to Atlanta, so it would be very easy for >them to change cities there, too. But I suppose it would be inconvenient >at least. > >Chris Cope Back on blacklisting... I'm not real keen on the geographic region thing. Too vague. (So Portland/Vancouver get's blacklisted and it could be me, Travis, Chris, Tony, etc...) The other trick is that a lot of areas can have multiple city names as long as the zip code is right (or close). Vancouver, WA 98683 works just as well as: Camas, WA 98683 works just as well as: Buttmonkey, WA 98683 -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 13:57:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com i HAVE to ask this... Buttmonkey, WA 98683 how is this town name pronounced? I assume it's not BUTT MONKEY From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 14:08:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:08:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708191608.ZM1035@calcite> In-Reply-To: "Mark Jenison" "Re: deadbeat list" (Aug 19, 12:08pm) References: <199708191646.MAA11604@po_box.cig.mot.com> <9708191208.ZM26826@calcite> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 19, 12:08pm, Mark Jenison wrote: > Subject: Re: deadbeat list > On Aug 19, 11:44am, Mit Matelske wrote: > > Subject: Re: deadbeat list > > At 09:18 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. > > > > > > > Would that Rocky happen to be: > > > > Rocky Palmisano > > 5304 1/2 Belle Terre Rd. > > Marrero, La 70072 > > > > If so, I hope I don't regret sending him 20 bucks for a Tac/Scan manual and > > shemactics this morning... > > > > Couldn't ya'll had this conversion yesterday? FYI update on Rocky Palmisano... He contacted me and said he was going to send me the Tac/Scan manual even though he had some it to someone else. I told him not to disrupt any current deals he had with anyone else, and I have him the option of sending me another manual or refunding my money. At least he seemed like he honestly wanted to resolve the matter. Apparently his divorce was the reason for all the problem he was having with resolving orders. Anyway, I'm just glad to see that things can get resolved in the end... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 14:21:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:21:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970819162112.00910d80@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:21:13 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: deadbeat list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:08 PM 8/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Aug 19, 12:08pm, Mark Jenison wrote: >> Subject: Re: deadbeat list >> On Aug 19, 11:44am, Mit Matelske wrote: >> > Subject: Re: deadbeat list >> > At 09:18 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >> > > >> > >The only two people I know of are Mixon and Rocky. >> > > >> > >> > Would that Rocky happen to be: >> > >> > Rocky Palmisano >> > 5304 1/2 Belle Terre Rd. >> > Marrero, La 70072 >> > >> > If so, I hope I don't regret sending him 20 bucks for a Tac/Scan manual and >> > shemactics this morning... >> > >> > Couldn't ya'll had this conversion yesterday? > >FYI update on Rocky Palmisano... > >He contacted me and said he was going to send me the Tac/Scan manual even >though he had some it to someone else. I told him not to disrupt any current >deals he had with anyone else, and I have him the option of sending me another >manual or refunding my money. > >At least he seemed like he honestly wanted to resolve the matter. Apparently >his divorce was the reason for all the problem he was having with resolving >orders. > >Anyway, I'm just glad to see that things can get resolved in the end... > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mark - Thanks for giving me "your" Tac/Scan manual :) mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 14:58:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <970819175222_565475258@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Ampliphone Monitor Brackets Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hey, I have the two brackets that bolt to the tube to mount the Ampliphne monitor into Star Wars. If anyone wants 'em all you have to do is pay a couple of bucks for shipping. Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 14:59:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:00:29 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Frazee's XY auction Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >i HAVE to ask this... > >Buttmonkey, WA 98683 > >how is this town name pronounced? >I assume it's not BUTT MONKEY *snicker* Well, it's not actually a town, so I did write it down as Butt-Monkey just for grins. I suppose you could prounounce it "Butte-mon-kay" (Or "Mon-kay Butte"). The other two were obviously real. ;-) Really though, as long as the letter is going someplace with a decent population the mail is probably routed by ZIP only and will make it. We used to use this fact when sending letters to friends in college-- make up the most offensive city names possible, but use the real Zip... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 15:03:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Ampliphone Monitor Brackets Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com was just looking for some From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 15:05:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <970819180317_-1336121280@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Mike Mixon Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Well ,I have had only good luck dealing with Mike, he sent me my boards on time and even sent me a free Dig Dug to Galaga conversion board. Guess maybe it's 'cause I live in Florida and might try to drive up there and beat him up??? Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 15:28:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708192233.SAA19474@mailrelay.tiac.net> X-Sender: fishd@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: fishd Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:57 PM 8/19/97 CDT, gregg wrote: >In message "RE: interesting coincidence..", you write: > >>G'day Al (and all), >> >>Very intriguing! For those of us who are interested in >>Cinematronics/Vectorbeam history this is a major find. Of course, I'm >>assuming that you've got manuals that are meant for distribution in the >>USA (vs. internationally where Exidy did all manufacturing for >>Cinematronics and probably Vectorbeam). > >I though it was well known that TailGunner II was licensed to Exidy. >The deal was Cinematronics did the upright and some other company got >the license to do the cocktails and sit-ins. In this case, Exidy got to >do TailGunner and they decided to tack on the "II" to the name. In the >case of cocktails, I belive Centur did them, right? I'll add a little fuel to the fire, the manufacturing tag on the back of my Tailgunner 2 clearly shows the manufacturer as Vectorbeam. The address and phone number is the same as on the manual cover. It's funny that the attract mode screen shows TAIL GUNNER without the 2 (or II). David Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! fishd@tiac.com | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@bev.etn.com | _The Prisoner_ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 15:42:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Dave said: "It's funny that the attract mode screen shows TAIL GUNNER without the 2 (or II)" Has anyone ever compared the two ROM sets to see if in fact they are the SAME? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 15:56:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 16:00 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970820035817.37bfa9de@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:42 PM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dave said: >"It's funny >that the attract mode screen shows TAIL GUNNER without the 2 (or II)" > >Has anyone ever compared the two ROM sets to see if in fact they are the SAME? The thing that interested me was that in the flyer for Tailgunner II they claim there's an option for choosing between torpedos and laser (or cannons and phaser, you get the picture) and since Tailgunner didn't seem to have that option I assumed different ROMs, but I've been told the ROMs are the same -- I think Steve O. told me, is that the case Steve? I have access to a Tailgunner II, but in order to read the ROMs I'd have to unsolder their lame-o jumpers. (Geeze, we have these ROMs that were burned to be place in those sockets, but we have a bunch of old Vectorbeam boards, already wave soldered with sockets only in these spots, hm... I know! Let's bend up the select pins and then plug the ROMs into these sockets and jumper the chip selects over to those! -- genuis at work.) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 16:43:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:42:46 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: analog line clipping Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Zonn said: "You set the clipping levels to clip just outside the screen. As a vector is drawn off the edge of the screen it hits the clip edge and moves no farther. Moving it to 0,0 at this point would cause a line to be drawn to the 0,0." My idea was to use the "watchdog" hardware on the input of the DACs, which return the DACs to mid-point if there is no vector activity, to drive any clipped line to the center of the screen if any of the four boundary comparitors would fire while a line was being drawn. The fact that the line was clipped is latched until the "set initial DAC value" signal is asserted again, signaling the start of the next line draw. The one thing I forgot to say was that the beam is blanked as soon as clipping occurs. The one thing I wonder, though, is if the deflection is fast enough to get from the center back to the screen edge when the line comes back into range. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 16:54:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:52:20 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Zonn (and folks), I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. This is the least interesting of the Cinematronics games in my book. The closest I came to the Tailgunner ROMs was proving that four files could be put on EPROMs and worked in Rick's Tailgunner cabinet. I could be wrong but as I remember it had the 2708 daughter board? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - Don't own a Tailgunner cabinet nor do I ever intend to. >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 6:00 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. > >At 03:42 PM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Dave said: >>"It's funny >>that the attract mode screen shows TAIL GUNNER without the 2 (or II)" >> >>Has anyone ever compared the two ROM sets to see if in fact they are the >>SAME? > >The thing that interested me was that in the flyer for Tailgunner II they >claim there's an option for choosing between torpedos and laser (or cannons >and phaser, you get the picture) and since Tailgunner didn't seem to have >that option I assumed different ROMs, but I've been told the ROMs are the >same -- I think Steve O. told me, is that the case Steve? > >I have access to a Tailgunner II, but in order to read the ROMs I'd have to >unsolder their lame-o jumpers. (Geeze, we have these ROMs that were burned >to be place in those sockets, but we have a bunch of old Vectorbeam boards, >already wave soldered with sockets only in these spots, hm... I know! >Let's bend up the select pins and then plug the ROMs into these sockets and >jumper the chip selects over to those! -- genuis at work.) > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 17:33:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 17:37 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970820053513.3a67e3d4@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: analog line clipping Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:42 PM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Zonn said: > >"You set the clipping levels to clip just outside the screen. As a vector is >drawn off the edge of the screen it hits the clip edge and moves no farther. >Moving it to 0,0 at this point would cause a line to be drawn to the 0,0." > >My idea was to use the "watchdog" hardware on the input of the DACs, which >return the DACs to mid-point if there is no vector activity, to drive any >clipped line to the center of the screen if any of the four boundary comparitors >would fire while a line was being drawn. The fact that the line was clipped >is latched until the "set initial DAC value" signal is asserted again, signaling >the start of the next line draw. > >The one thing I forgot to say was that the beam is blanked as soon as clipping >occurs. > >The one thing I wonder, though, is if the deflection is fast enough to get from >the center back to the screen edge when the line comes back into range. It would certainly try! And that alone is going to stress the deflection circuits. I think what you had in mind was something like letting the beam *float* back to 0,0 which is not what would happen. Instead the deflection board is going to try it's best to get to the center as fast as it can using all the available current at it's disposale. This will push much more current through the yokes (and deflection transistors) than a controlled draw back to the center, where the speed of the draw is slower. On the Cinematronics each vector is jumped to at the start of the draw, but since most draws are "connected" to the previous draw the deflections circuits have a pretty easy time of things. Driving the beam to the center of the screen for every vector clipped would be drawing two half screen vectors at the maximum slewrate, one to get to the edge of the screen, and one to get back, for each vector clipped. Some of these vectors were probably quite small (could simply be a vectored font). There is a chance of distortion since when drawing a pattern on the edge of the screen, the software expects the trace to already be there, I'm not sure on the Cinematronics platform what the slew rate is for jumping to the start of a new vector, so I'm not sure what that kind of jumping around it's cabable of, but always jumping from the edge, to the center, to the edge is much harder on the deflection circuits than just drawing around the edge. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 19 17:38:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 17:43 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970820054028.3a678efa@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: interesting coincidence.. Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:52 PM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day Zonn (and folks), > >I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. This is the least >interesting of the Cinematronics games in my book. The closest I came >to the Tailgunner ROMs was proving that four files could be put on >EPROMs and worked in Rick's Tailgunner cabinet. I could be wrong but as >I remember it had the 2708 daughter board? Some do, some don't. Does anybody with an easily accessible Tailgunner II want to do a ROM compare? > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com >ps - Don't own a Tailgunner cabinet nor do I ever intend to. Hey Tailgunner is a blast! It's one of my top Cinematronics games! Simple but Zen like. It's one of my favorites on the emulator, when you're bored, you can just kick back and target shoot at things coming at you. No thoughts, no worries. :^) -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 05:59:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Message-Id: <9708201257.AA30652@savage.raleigh.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Mike Mixon To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:57:22 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <970819180317_-1336121280@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Dangerwil@aol.com" at Aug 19, 97 06:05:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 644 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Well ,I have had only good luck dealing with Mike, he sent me my boards on > time and even sent me a free Dig Dug to Galaga conversion board. Anyone have any details on performing a Dig Dug->Galaga conversion (other than buying a Galaga board)? I'd sure like to have a switchable Dig Dug/Galaga (if that's practically possible). John +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John W. Linville To Be, Rather Than To Seem. | | linvjw@vnet.ibm.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/linvjw | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 06:47:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <199708201347.IAA00691@fermat.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 08:47:24 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: interesting coincidence.. References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com You wrote: > I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. This is the least > interesting of the Cinematronics games in my book. I agree with you in 1997, but when I first saw this game in the arcade, I was blown away (only other games that had that impact were Battle Zone and Red Baron) The 3D stuff just amazed me. Actually, I'm still impressed at what the programmers were able to do with Tail Gunner and Warrior. Hard to believe all these games were on the same hardware and fit in a couple k Ray From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 10:52:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Atari trimmer pots Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I received the order from Circuit Specialists for the trim pots that I mentioned last week as replacements for the ones in the Atari vector generator, and as it turns out they arent the right ones. The one thing I didn't notice was that the original Beckman trimmers have wire leads, and the ones that I ordered have flat leads, so they won't fit into the PC holes :-( Newark lists some Bournes series 3352 trimmers that have wire leads, but they don't stock the 3352K series, which have the leads formed to match the hole layout of the PC board, so you have to get the 3352W series with in line leads and bend them to suit (..no big deal) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 11:19:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 1997 13:15 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: G-80 Trouble Shooting Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Does anybody know if the slot positions in the G-80 system are specific to each card or if any card can go in any slot, as in one big bus? I'm trying to determine if I can move cards to the end slot where you can access test points for debugging. Alternately, does anyone know if the bus is physically compliant with STD- BUS or S-100? It occurred to me on the way to work that it looked similar, but I won't be able to check until later. If it were compatible, it would mean we can use existing bus extender cards for trouble shooting! Cheers, Mark From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 11:25:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:25:45 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com It is unique to the G80, and you can put any card in any slot. The pinouts are in the G80 programming reference on www.spies.com/arcade From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 11:27:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:27:06 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I should rephrase that. The bus pinouts and card form factor are unique to the G80. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 13:43:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:44:06 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Alternately, does anyone know if the bus is physically compliant with STD- >BUS or S-100? It occurred to me on the way to work that it looked similar, >but I won't be able to check until later. If it were compatible, it would >mean we can use existing bus extender cards for trouble shooting! Since Al answered the first part, I'll offer the additional insight that any card extender that's passive should work as long as the number of pins is the same. (An active extender for a different bus could be a problem since the signals likely wouldn't be the same.) On a related note, if anyone has a passive card extended that fits in a G-80 backplane that you want to get rid of, let me know. I'd like to have one for my little hacking projects... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 13:54:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:53:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708201553.ZM20011@calcite> In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting" (Aug 20, 1:44pm) References: <199708202045.QAA13833@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 20, 1:44pm, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: G-80 Trouble Shooting > > On a related note, if anyone has a passive card extended that fits in a > G-80 backplane that you want to get rid of, let me know. I'd like to have > one for my little hacking projects... Well, I've got lots of boards, so if someone wants to just by a board and rip the stuff off of it, solder some wires and use it as a test/diagnostic boards, let me know (I know some people are doing this with EPROM boards...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 14:53:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 20 Aug 1997 16:50 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com (was: RE: interesting coincidence..) In message "interesting coincidence..", you write: > >I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. My TG2 originally used 2708s so I converted it to use 2532s by reading in the 2708s and combining the images. Once I had figured the original addressing and mapped the various locations, I burned the new roms. All seemed to be ok as the game powered up and entered the attract mode. However, once I started playing the game it was apparent that something was very wrong. First I noticed a small twitch in the approaching enemies. Their movement seemed to become more and more jerky, until the ships would actually dis- appear from one location and reappear somewhere else. The next major shock was to see the enemies start going backwards! As you know they *always* move forward. The last oddity was the shield. Instead of being geometric, the shield kind of bends into an oval shape. Really weird! Anyway, my point; thinking I had somehow managed to corrupt my rom images I double checked them against the TG roms someone sent me in a file called CinemROMS.tar. I don't know if the roms in that file were taken from a TG or a TG2. However, the roms from my TG2 compared perfectly with the roms in the file. Incidently, the roms I burned showed the correct checksum and even compare with no errors to the rom files. Finally, I burned a new set and they worked fine. Although that was years ago, I saved the chips and occasionally put them in the game for a laugh. It also helps increase the challenge! What other really bizarre things have you seen come from a cinematronics game? > Does anybody with an easily accessible Tailgunner II want to do a ROM compare? I have the TG2 files if you want to compare them. > Hey Tailgunner is a blast! It's one of my top Cinematronics games! Simple > but Zen like. Definitely! Cheers, Mark From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 20 18:05:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 18:10 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970821060742.23dffddc@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:50 PM 8/20/97 CDT, you wrote: > >(was: RE: interesting coincidence..) > >In message "interesting coincidence..", you write: > >> >I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. > >My TG2 originally used 2708s so I converted it to use 2532s by reading >in the 2708s and combining the images. Once I had figured the original >addressing and mapped the various locations, I burned the new roms. All >seemed to be ok as the game powered up and entered the attract mode. >However, once I started playing the game it was apparent that something >was very wrong. > >First I noticed a small twitch in the approaching enemies. Their movement >seemed to become more and more jerky, until the ships would actually dis- >appear from one location and reappear somewhere else. The next major shock >was to see the enemies start going backwards! As you know they *always* >move forward. The last oddity was the shield. Instead of being geometric, >the shield kind of bends into an oval shape. Really weird! > >Anyway, my point; thinking I had somehow managed to corrupt my rom images >I double checked them against the TG roms someone sent me in a file called >CinemROMS.tar. I don't know if the roms in that file were taken from a TG >or a TG2. However, the roms from my TG2 compared perfectly with the roms in >the file. > >Incidently, the roms I burned showed the correct checksum and even compare >with no errors to the rom files. Finally, I burned a new set and they worked >fine. Although that was years ago, I saved the chips and occasionally put >them in the game for a laugh. It also helps increase the challenge! Sounds like you have slow ROMs. The ROM readers read ROMs at an very slow rate, whereas running them in the game runs them at full speed. It sounds like some data just can't get there fast enough. So they checksum and compare ok in the ROM reader but don't play correctly. It's amazing the game continued to run though, it wouldn't take but one corrupted opcode to crash the game. There is a table lookup instruction that allows the game code to access ROM tables, it plays a lot with the ROM address bus. Maybe your ROMs are just at the verge that allows normal sequential access to work, but table lookups sometimes get scrambled. Or maybe I have no idea why your ROMs do what they do and I'm pulling ideas as fast as I can type out of thin air. If I were a betting man I'd bet on the latter... > >What other really bizarre things have you seen come from a cinematronics game? > >> Does anybody with an easily accessible Tailgunner II want to do a ROM compare? > >I have the TG2 files if you want to compare them. If you compared your ROMs with those on the net, then I'm sure your ROMs match the standare TG ROMs. 1) It's unlikely that the ROMs on the net are from a TG2, and 2) If they are from a TG2, then a TG2 matches a standard TG since I've compared the ROMs from my TG with the ones on the net (actually many copies of the many differently named ROMs on the net) So thanks Mark, I think you've answered the TG / TG2 question. I someone is *really* not convinced, you can send me your images and I'll compare them with my known TG set, or vica versa. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 09:07:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:05:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, In my experience EPROM speed is quite important for Cinematronics games. I found out from my experience that I can slap any 2732 or larger EPROM into a Cinematronics board with no troubles! However, If I tried 2716 only one in eight were fast enough (due to the random collection of 2716's that I had access to). How does the speed of 2532's compare to 2732's? I know I've used some 2532's in the past with no troubles. Again, I emphasize that my experience is limitted to whatever EPROMs that I've run across. Maybe I just always had fast EPROMs at my disposal? Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 8:10 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience > >At 04:50 PM 8/20/97 CDT, you wrote: >> >>(was: RE: interesting coincidence..) >> >>In message "interesting coincidence..", you write: >> >>> >I haven't done any ROM comparisons for Tailgunner. >> >>My TG2 originally used 2708s so I converted it to use 2532s by reading >>in the 2708s and combining the images. Once I had figured the original >>addressing and mapped the various locations, I burned the new roms. All >>seemed to be ok as the game powered up and entered the attract mode. >>However, once I started playing the game it was apparent that something >>was very wrong. >> >>First I noticed a small twitch in the approaching enemies. Their movement >>seemed to become more and more jerky, until the ships would actually dis- >>appear from one location and reappear somewhere else. The next major shock >>was to see the enemies start going backwards! As you know they *always* >>move forward. The last oddity was the shield. Instead of being geometric, >>the shield kind of bends into an oval shape. Really weird! >> >>Anyway, my point; thinking I had somehow managed to corrupt my rom images >>I double checked them against the TG roms someone sent me in a file called >>CinemROMS.tar. I don't know if the roms in that file were taken from a TG >>or a TG2. However, the roms from my TG2 compared perfectly with the roms in >>the file. >> >>Incidently, the roms I burned showed the correct checksum and even compare >>with no errors to the rom files. Finally, I burned a new set and they worked >>fine. Although that was years ago, I saved the chips and occasionally put >>them in the game for a laugh. It also helps increase the challenge! > >Sounds like you have slow ROMs. The ROM readers read ROMs at an very slow >rate, whereas running them in the game runs them at full speed. It sounds >like some data just can't get there fast enough. So they checksum and >compare ok in the ROM reader but don't play correctly. > >It's amazing the game continued to run though, it wouldn't take but one >corrupted opcode to crash the game. There is a table lookup instruction >that allows the game code to access ROM tables, it plays a lot with the ROM >address bus. Maybe your ROMs are just at the verge that allows normal >sequential access to work, but table lookups sometimes get scrambled. Or >maybe I have no idea why your ROMs do what they do and I'm pulling ideas as >fast as I can type out of thin air. If I were a betting man I'd bet on the >latter... >> >>What other really bizarre things have you seen come from a cinematronics >>game? >> >>> Does anybody with an easily accessible Tailgunner II want to do a ROM >compare? >> >>I have the TG2 files if you want to compare them. > >If you compared your ROMs with those on the net, then I'm sure your ROMs >match the standare TG ROMs. 1) It's unlikely that the ROMs on the net are >from a TG2, and 2) If they are from a TG2, then a TG2 matches a standard TG >since I've compared the ROMs from my TG with the ones on the net (actually >many copies of the many differently named ROMs on the net) > >So thanks Mark, I think you've answered the TG / TG2 question. > >I someone is *really* not convinced, you can send me your images and I'll >compare them with my known TG set, or vica versa. > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 11:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 11:45 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970821234301.4067b3c4@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:05 AM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >In my experience EPROM speed is quite important for Cinematronics games. > I found out from my experience that I can slap any 2732 or larger EPROM >into a Cinematronics board with no troubles! However, If I tried 2716 >only one in eight were fast enough (due to the random collection of >2716's that I had access to). How does the speed of 2532's compare to >2732's? I know I've used some 2532's in the past with no troubles. > >Again, I emphasize that my experience is limitted to whatever EPROMs >that I've run across. Maybe I just always had fast EPROMs at my >disposal? Many of the C-CPU instructions executed in one 5mhz cycle, which would give you 200ns access time -- way beyond the capabilities of the ROMs at the time. By using two EPROMs and alternating back and forth between the two, you can run at the same speed using only 400ns memory. Which is why Cinematronics have EVEN and ODD ROMs. It doesn't have a 16 bit bus, but instead by accessing alternate ROMs you can give the ROMs twice as long to retrieve their data. Still, if too many single cycled instructions are executed in a row you would need 400ns memory, still too fast for most memory at the time, so Larry (remember poor ol' Larry?) came up with a wait state generator that will insert an extra cycle if ever the memory is accessed in less that three cycles. The design was clever and used a counter and a lookup PROM to determine when a wait state is needed. So that leaves you with the need for 600ns ROMs. Within the range of the EPROMs of the day, most were rated between 450-550ns, but I can see some of your older ones not even making this spec. The newer EPROMs run much faster, and if you wanted you could defeat the wait state generator, to to allow you to write more complicated games in the future (now there's a market: Software that only runs on a C-CPU with the wait states disabled!). Disabling the wait state generator wouldn't effect the speed of the current games since they're controlled using an external timer, not by counting cycles (Well it might mess up the pretty sparkling sun in Space War, since that was done using software timing.) And there ya go, your dose of Arcade Trivia for today... -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 11:52:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:49:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Zonn (and all), Excellent summary of neat (and precise) arcade trivia. So let's say we disable the wait state generator on the Cinematronics platform so that those awesome new games are possible. Does the speed (slew rate?) of the monitor become the next bottle neck, since more complicated games often have more objects? So am I out in lala-land if I pose the question of a "universal I/O" card that makes use of modems to communicate between two games? In the most basic form woudl this be the equivalent to a PC's serial port? I'm not limitting this question to just the Cinematronics platform. I'd be much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where adding another card to the cage isn't impossible). Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com >---------- >From: Zonn[SMTP:zonn@concentric.net] >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 1997 1:45 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience > >At 09:05 AM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote: >>G'day folks, >> >>In my experience EPROM speed is quite important for Cinematronics games. >> I found out from my experience that I can slap any 2732 or larger EPROM >>into a Cinematronics board with no troubles! However, If I tried 2716 >>only one in eight were fast enough (due to the random collection of >>2716's that I had access to). How does the speed of 2532's compare to >>2732's? I know I've used some 2532's in the past with no troubles. >> >>Again, I emphasize that my experience is limitted to whatever EPROMs >>that I've run across. Maybe I just always had fast EPROMs at my >>disposal? > >Many of the C-CPU instructions executed in one 5mhz cycle, which would give >you 200ns access time -- way beyond the capabilities of the ROMs at the >time. By using two EPROMs and alternating back and forth between the two, >you can run at the same speed using only 400ns memory. Which is why >Cinematronics have EVEN and ODD ROMs. It doesn't have a 16 bit bus, but >instead by accessing alternate ROMs you can give the ROMs twice as long to >retrieve their data. >Still, if too many single cycled instructions are executed in a row you >would need 400ns memory, still too fast for most memory at the time, so >Larry (remember poor ol' Larry?) came up with a wait state generator that >will insert an extra cycle if ever the memory is accessed in less that three >cycles. > >The design was clever and used a counter and a lookup PROM to determine when >a wait state is needed. > >So that leaves you with the need for 600ns ROMs. Within the range of the >EPROMs of the day, most were rated between 450-550ns, but I can see some of >your older ones not even making this spec. > >The newer EPROMs run much faster, and if you wanted you could defeat the >wait state generator, to to allow you to write more complicated games in the >future (now there's a market: Software that only runs on a C-CPU with the >wait states disabled!). > >Disabling the wait state generator wouldn't effect the speed of the current >games since they're controlled using an external timer, not by counting >cycles (Well it might mess up the pretty sparkling sun in Space War, since >that was done using software timing.) > >And there ya go, your dose of Arcade Trivia for today... > >-Zonn > > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 12:15:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:15:32 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com "I'd be much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where adding another card to the cage isn't impossible)" ..I was wondering, now that the 4 player Eliminator was available w/o SC, how long it would be before someone tried a net game of 4 player Eliminator on the simulator :-) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 13:17:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:14:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day Al (and all), Actually, I'd like to see an I/O board for Eliminator so Zonn and I could hack our two 4 player Eliminators together. With one link between our two 4 player Eliminators, we'd vault the competitive experience to new heights! Kinda reminiscent of the old 8 player tank games that I remember in arcades from the late 70's (but with two screens)! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ps - I will drag Zonn one way or another into a project someday! 8^) 8^) 8^) Well, either that or he'll push me into writing Cinematronics games (without wait state generators)! >---------- >From: aek@goonsquad.spies.com[SMTP:aek@goonsquad.spies.com] >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 1997 2:15 PM >To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience > >"I'd be >much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where >adding another card to the cage isn't impossible)" > >..I was wondering, now that the 4 player Eliminator was available >w/o SC, how long it would be before someone tried a net game of >4 player Eliminator on the simulator :-) > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:15:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708212119.RAA10782@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:19:37 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ozdemir, Steve" at Aug 21, 97 11:49:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Excellent summary of neat (and precise) arcade trivia. So let's say we > disable the wait state generator on the Cinematronics platform so that > those awesome new games are possible. Does the speed (slew rate?) of > the monitor become the next bottle neck, since more complicated games > often have more objects? Tim Skelly said [there I go name droppin' agian] said he wasn't satisfied with War of the Worlds because he couldn't draw enough aliens on the screen due to the "slowness" of the processor (which was really quite fast at the time). He wanted a LOT of them which in itself might make the game a little fun :-) Another CineHack that would be fairly easy is to expand the memory to 4K x 12 instead of 256x12. This could be done by using bigger RAM chips and an extra latch. Beyond that, the existing instruction set wouldn't support it. As it is, you'd be forced to use pointers to get beyond 256 words, but that is supported (just need a bigger address latch). The ROM can easily bank switch up to 64K - the most they ever did was 32K for Boxing Bugs. Finally, if Zonn wanted to tweak the wait-state generator he may as well make it work from a single ROM since 100ns and less are readily available today. I for one have better things to do than write a game to run on modified 20-year-old hardware :-) I suppose it's interesting to note that if Cinematronics had a clue they could have extended the life of that basic design by a couple years. With added memory and ROM, a little CPU speed boost, and an Atari color monitor they probably could have done the likes of Star Wars on it. > So am I out in lala-land if I pose the question of a "universal I/O" > card that makes use of modems to communicate between two games? In the > most basic form woudl this be the equivalent to a PC's serial port? I'm > not limitting this question to just the Cinematronics platform. I'd be > much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where > adding another card to the cage isn't impossible). Kurt & I talked years ago about running Net-RipOff and other CineGames on the emulator. It'd be fairly simple and might work via modem if there wasn't too much lag. Some fairly tricky code might even be able to keep 2 emulators in sync WITH lag now that I think about it...Or maybe not. The basic idea should work with any emulator. Later, ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:16:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970821140632.00774dc8@frobozz.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sswazey@frobozz.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:06:32 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Scott Swazey Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 12:15 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >..I was wondering, now that the 4 player Eliminator was available >w/o SC, how long it would be before someone tried a net game of >4 player Eliminator on the simulator :-) Actually, I was thinking about this... A central server machine would emulate the game, 4 slave pc's would each process the vector commands and send back key presses. I've just finished a hacked up version of a Quantum Emulator. No sound, and it runs slow on a 150Mhz PentiumPro (Thanks to Zonn for SCALing routine), but you can play the game... Anyway, has anyone written a sega vector instruction set description document? I'm pretty sure I can do the emulation and the network interface (using sun's PC RPC), but I really don't want to reverse engineer the vector state machine. -Scott Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:19:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199708212124.RAA11487@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:24:08 -0500 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 21, 97 12:15:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > "I'd be > much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where > adding another card to the cage isn't impossible)" > > ..I was wondering, now that the 4 player Eliminator was available > w/o SC, how long it would be before someone tried a net game of > 4 player Eliminator on the simulator :-) Actually, I think most of the people on this list would appreciate the game X-pilot. It's basically multiplayer space war on steroids - there's land, fuel, many weapons and powerups, team or individual play, etc... it's actually the best game I've ever played. And it's all vectors - only drawn in an X-window raster display. And if you start a server, it contacts the meta-server in norway so other people can join your game. This game is unfortunately dying, but still alive. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:29:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:28:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708211628.ZM11371@calcite> In-Reply-To: Paul Kahler "Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience" (Aug 21, 5:24pm) References: <199708212127.RAA18685@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 21, 5:24pm, Paul Kahler wrote: > Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience > > "I'd be > > much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where > > adding another card to the cage isn't impossible)" > > > > ..I was wondering, now that the 4 player Eliminator was available > > w/o SC, how long it would be before someone tried a net game of > > 4 player Eliminator on the simulator :-) > > Actually, I think most of the people on this list would appreciate the > game X-pilot. It's basically multiplayer space war on steroids - there's > land, fuel, many weapons and powerups, team or individual play, etc... > it's actually the best game I've ever played. And it's all vectors - only > drawn in an X-window raster display. And if you start a server, it contacts > the meta-server in norway so other people can join your game. This game is > unfortunately dying, but still alive. While offtopic, I have to agree with Paul; I played this game a lot in college. That game rocks! It's more like Gravitar with kick! Maybe I can start playing again as soon as I get that ISDN line installed ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:32:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Anyway, has anyone written a sega vector instruction set description document? www.spies.com/arcade/simulation has a complete programming reference for the converta games, and there is a simulation now in MAME for them. Hedley Rainey (hedley@8x8.com) was working on Quantum too. I'm sure he'd like to see what you did. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:36:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:36:24 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Quantum emulator Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I guess it was just a matter of time till someone got a 68k vector game going. Maybe you can get the hardware into from Zonn for Cosmic Chasm. I scanned in the Aztarac schematics, if you want to take a crack at it on www.spies.com/schematics. It has a display list structure, and looks nothing at all like the Atari or Sega designs. It sort of looks like they have absolute addressing for start and end points, and some color information in the list. I didn't dig into it any farther than that. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:52:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 14:57 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970822025447.126fe6da@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com,vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:19 PM 8/21/97 -0500, Paul Kahler wrote: >> Excellent summary of neat (and precise) arcade trivia. So let's say we >> disable the wait state generator on the Cinematronics platform so that >> those awesome new games are possible. Does the speed (slew rate?) of >> the monitor become the next bottle neck, since more complicated games >> often have more objects? > >Tim Skelly said [there I go name droppin' agian] said he wasn't satisfied >with War of the Worlds because he couldn't draw enough aliens on the >screen due to the "slowness" of the processor (which was really quite fast >at the time). He wanted a LOT of them which in itself might make the game >a little fun :-) I read that somewhere (probably in a post by you). I don't know, I think what they game needed was a way to win. In most games there is a way to play the game, that if you played a perfect game, you would never die. Since in WotW you have to occasionally use your shields to move under a critter, and there is no way to replenish your shields, eventually you must die. Makes for a boring game. Maybe a shield boost if you shot martians before there legs came down, or shooting those twizzle balls the freeze you. More martians would just mean more shield usage, making for a faster / unwinable game. > >Another CineHack that would be fairly easy is to expand the memory to >4K x 12 instead of 256x12. This could be done by using bigger RAM chips >and an extra latch. Beyond that, the existing instruction set wouldn't >support it. As it is, you'd be forced to use pointers to get beyond 256 >words, but that is supported (just need a bigger address latch). The ROM >can easily bank switch up to 64K - the most they ever did was 32K for >Boxing Bugs. Finally, if Zonn wanted to tweak the wait-state generator >he may as well make it work from a single ROM since 100ns and less are >readily available today. I for one have better things to do than write >a game to run on modified 20-year-old hardware :-) That was exactly my point! But tell you what, if you add the extra RAM, I'll remove the wait states and patch it for single ROM usage! Ok, you go first... ;^) >I suppose it's interesting to note that if Cinematronics had a clue they >could have extended the life of that basic design by a couple years. With >added memory and ROM, a little CPU speed boost, and an Atari color monitor >they probably could have done the likes of Star Wars on it. Well according to some technicians and engineers that worked there at the time, they did have sort of a clue, that's why they built Cosmic Chasm as an open archeticture. The "operating system" they wrote for it was to allow the easy additition of new games, they planned on using it for all their future vector games. Only problem was they bought a new building to do the manufactoring, the president (or what ever the top guy's title was) was embezzling money in the form of kickbacks, operators were pretty burnt out on repairing X/Y monitors and didn't want anymore vector games, and the game industry took a huge dive. But your right they could have speeded up the bitslice and used it for a few more games. Unfortunately the people working there at the time did not have that kind of understanding of the bitslice hardware. They instead, were designing sound cards, and working on the new raster stuff / Cosmic Chasm hardware. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 14:59:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:59:17 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 15:04 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970822030133.31bfa904@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Quantum emulator Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 02:36 PM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I guess it was just a matter of time till someone got a 68k vector >game going. Maybe you can get the hardware into from Zonn for Cosmic Chasm. >I scanned in the Aztarac schematics, if you want to take a crack at it >on www.spies.com/schematics. It has a display list structure, and looks >nothing at all like the Atari or Sega designs. It sort of looks like >they have absolute addressing for start and end points, and some color >information in the list. I didn't dig into it any farther than that. My friend with the scanner has been on vacation, he should be back next week and I can scan the schematic in. I have many projects to go through before I would take on the Cosmic Chasm VG. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 15:27:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:27:42 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >So am I out in lala-land if I pose the question of a "universal I/O" >card that makes use of modems to communicate between two games? In the >most basic form woudl this be the equivalent to a PC's serial port? I'm >not limitting this question to just the Cinematronics platform. I'd be >much more interested in having this for the Sega XY platform (where >adding another card to the cage isn't impossible). I originally had a serial chip on the G-80 multigame card. The idea being to allow serial downloads of development code and allow remote links with other games. For some reason I took it off... I think "we" decided it would burden the cost of the board for a seldom used feature. (Did I miss something? What's this talk of a Quantum emulator?) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 15:34:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:34:29 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Finally, if Zonn wanted to tweak the wait-state generator >he may as well make it work from a single ROM since 100ns and less are >readily available today. I for one have better things to do than write >a game to run on modified 20-year-old hardware :-) Oh, *waaahhh*. (That's my crying sound effect. ;-) You saying those of us writing games on modified 20-year-old hardware have nothing better to do? (Just kidding. Sorta. :-) FWIW, we've been buying 128Kx8 Flash and EPROM at 45ns for a few years now for use in modems and the prices have really gone down recently. Fast ROM access wouldn't be a big deal. A pretty fun little project for someone with some spare time would be to try to do a little 'C' compiler for the Cinematronics hardware. That'd be a neat project. ;-) >I suppose it's interesting to note that if Cinematronics had a clue they >could have extended the life of that basic design by a couple years. With >added memory and ROM, a little CPU speed boost, and an Atari color monitor >they probably could have done the likes of Star Wars on it. True. Does anyone know what the capabilities of the Cinematronics hardware used in Cosmic Chasm were like? >Kurt & I talked years ago about running Net-RipOff and other CineGames >on the emulator. It'd be fairly simple and might work via modem if there >wasn't too much lag. Some fairly tricky code might even be able to keep >2 emulators in sync WITH lag now that I think about it...Or maybe not. >The basic idea should work with any emulator. I did a lot of work here on "modem enabled gaming" about a year ago. It's quite do-able with little to no lag at speeds even around 9600bps. The limitations of the game hardware from the 80's kinda helps insure you're never pushing much data around... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 15:37:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:38:23 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com [X-pilot] >While offtopic, I have to agree with Paul; I played this game a lot in college. > That game rocks! It's more like Gravitar with kick! Maybe I can start >playing again as soon as I get that ISDN line installed ;-) X-pilot's cool, but my favorite example of a great multi-player game that really lended itself to workstation performance (at the time) was X-tank. You could make these god-awful complicated to control tanks with all sorts of armaments. Separate rotating turrets and direction control was *really* cool. :-) Of course once we discovered this little thing called "source code" everything got a bit out of hand... (It always reminded me of Bolo on the Apple II...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 15:43:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:43:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708211743.ZM12472@calcite> In-Reply-To: Clay Cowgill "Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience" (Aug 21, 3:38pm) References: <199708212239.SAA24407@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 21, 3:38pm, Clay Cowgill wrote: > Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience > [X-pilot] > >While offtopic, I have to agree with Paul; I played this game a lot in college. > > That game rocks! It's more like Gravitar with kick! Maybe I can start > >playing again as soon as I get that ISDN line installed ;-) > > X-pilot's cool, but my favorite example of a great multi-player game that > really lended itself to workstation performance (at the time) was X-tank. > You could make these god-awful complicated to control tanks with all sorts > of armaments. Separate rotating turrets and direction control was *really* > cool. :-) Of course once we discovered this little thing called "source > code" everything got a bit out of hand... (It always reminded me of Bolo > on the Apple II...) Oh, NOW we're waxing nostagic when you mention Bolo on the Apple II...that was a great game if you could master the keyboard controls (*sign*...Aquatron, Conan, Aztec, MINER 2049, Raster Blaster...an AWESOME polygon game that could be converted to vector would be ELITE! It's like a vector version of Space Lords!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 16:00:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 16:05 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970822040236.3217b884@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com,vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:34 PM 8/21/97 -0800, Clay Cowgill wrote: >>Finally, if Zonn wanted to tweak the wait-state generator >>he may as well make it work from a single ROM since 100ns and less are >>readily available today. I for one have better things to do than write >>a game to run on modified 20-year-old hardware :-) > >Oh, *waaahhh*. (That's my crying sound effect. ;-) > >You saying those of us writing games on modified 20-year-old hardware have >nothing better to do? (Just kidding. Sorta. :-) > >FWIW, we've been buying 128Kx8 Flash and EPROM at 45ns for a few years now >for use in modems and the prices have really gone down recently. Fast ROM >access wouldn't be a big deal. A pretty fun little project for someone >with some spare time would be to try to do a little 'C' compiler for the >Cinematronics hardware. That'd be a neat project. ;-) Yeah considering it has no stack! and only 256 words of memory! I'm currently using a 6805 "C" compiler (another processor without a *usable* stack), you have to run through many loops to write a "C" compiler without stacks to pass arguments -- and recursion??? HA! >>I suppose it's interesting to note that if Cinematronics had a clue they >>could have extended the life of that basic design by a couple years. With >>added memory and ROM, a little CPU speed boost, and an Atari color monitor >>they probably could have done the likes of Star Wars on it. > >True. Does anyone know what the capabilities of the Cinematronics hardware >used in Cosmic Chasm were like? More like Quantum. It uses a 68k processor, a discreet VG, and a Z-80 with a few of those GI sound chips for sound. It runs 4096 colors driven in a way similar to that of the Cine->WG board (though not the same schematic from what I can tell). The PCB was laid out for a trackball, but only populated for the single axis optical encoder. There are a few other bare spots on the board that were there for future dreams... -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 16:17:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: clay@supra.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:18:10 -0800 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Bizarre Tailgunner (2) Experience Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Yeah considering it has no stack! and only 256 words of memory! > >I'm currently using a 6805 "C" compiler (another processor without a >*usable* stack), you have to run through many loops to write a "C" compiler >without stacks to pass arguments -- and recursion??? HA! Oh, I agree. That's what makes it fun, no? :-) There are some pretty decent PIC 'C' compilers and a lot of those don't have much in the line of a hardware stack. Recursion is definately out, and most variables are assumed to be static... >More like Quantum. It uses a 68k processor, a discreet VG, and a Z-80 with >a few of those GI sound chips for sound. It runs 4096 colors driven in a >way similar to that of the Cine->WG board (though not the same schematic > from what I can tell). How funny. That's almost exactly like my RetroVector design, except the 68K ran the VG (compensated overhead for by having a 16MHz CPU) and used POKEY's for sound. (Your favorite sound generator, as I recall Zonn... ;-) >The PCB was laid out for a trackball, but only populated for the single axis >optical encoder. There are a few other bare spots on the board that were >there for future dreams... Neato. Maybe I'll find one to play with someday. -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 21:20:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:19:58 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Mad Planets encoder board Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I had a chance tonight to dig into the Mad Planets, and the sound and encoder boards appear to be the same PCBs, just with the speech and second axis unpoplulated. Did Reactor use an Atari (HAPP?) midi sized trac ball? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 21:30:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:30:00 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Mad Planets encoder board Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com what I meant to say was the sound board is the same as the Q*Bert sound board with the speech stuff unpopulated, and the spinner board is the same as the trackball board, with one axis unpopulated. so Bill, it does look like you can use a Mad Planets board in a Reactor by stuffing the missing ICs From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 21 22:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:19:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:19:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <970822011918_599423919@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Card Position G 80 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Well from my experience I believe any card can go in any slot, except for the CPU it can only go in slot 2. Does anyone else have any info pro/con. I think if you look at the backplane you will see that the ac voltage only feeds to this connector??? It's been awhile since I had one apart. Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 22 07:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 07:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:17:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708220917.ZM24491@calcite> In-Reply-To: Dangerwil@aol.com "Card Position G 80" (Aug 22, 1:19am) References: <199708220521.BAA09022@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Card Position G 80 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 22, 1:19am, Dangerwil@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Card Position G 80 > > > Well from my experience I believe any card can go in any slot, except for the > CPU it can only go in slot 2. > > Does anyone else have any info pro/con. I think if you look at the backplane > you will see that the ac voltage only feeds to this connector??? It's been > awhile since I had one apart. I don't think this is correct; I just sent someone a backplane (no cage) this week, and it's all just a big bus. I've tested MANY CPU boards (100 is probably an underestimation), and I've never seen any difference between putting it in any of the slots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 22 14:21:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <970822172002_1119540928@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Card Position G 80 Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In a message dated 97-08-22 14:58:02 EDT, you write: > I don't think this is correct; I just sent someone a backplane (no cage) this > week, and it's all just a big bus. I've tested MANY CPU boards (100 is > probably an underestimation), and I've never seen any difference between > putting it in any of the slots. > I stand corrected! Good luck with the G80 stuff. SEGA SEGA SEGA Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 24 09:12:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Sega G08 service manual Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com An operator loaned me a Service manual I hadn't seen before for the Sega vector games. The part number is 420-0605 and it has a few things i've never seen, like a block diagram for the vector generator, and schematics for the G08-001 version of the monitor, which doesn't have the HV regulator board, and a two page text description of the vector generator hardware. ..sure would have been nice to have this about 3 months ago :-) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 24 09:32:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:32:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dangerwil@aol.com Message-ID: <970824123208_790333474@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Sega G08 service manual Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hey, Would this be the Sega Service School manual? I was just planning on picking one up. It has the complete schematics for the G80 system, Subroc 3D, Pengo? and a few others. Has a picture of the home office on the front. Bill From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 24 09:43:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:42:59 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Sega G08 service manual Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com no, this is an 8 1/2 * 11 manual that is only about 20 pages long. I had a Service School manual, it pretty big.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 24 11:03:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:03:29 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I just played human OCR, and typed in the two page vector generator description, that I was talking about in the last message. I also noticed that the G-08 schematics show Motorola deflection transistors (MJ15003/MJ15004 PNP/NPN pair) instead of the pair of 2N6259 NPN's. MJ15003's are rated at 20A 140V 250W. max This is really weird.. The G08-003 is marked in this manual as "for future reference". They changed the outputs from a PNP-NPN pair to a pair of NPN's, but kept the part number the same? Mouser has the MJ15003's listed at around 6.50 ea. < 10. G-80 Control and Timing Boards Operation, Detailed Note: Designations in parentheses will be used throughout this discussion to refer the reader to the proper schematics. C = X-Y Control Board #800-0163, sheets 5 and 6. T = X-Y Timing Board #800-0161. sheets 5, 6, and 7. e.g. (C6) = Control Board, sheet 6. The CPU addresses video memory, U24-U31, through multiplexer ICs U48 and U49 (C5). Character words are taken from memory as the Program Counter, ICs U33, U34, U22 (C5), addresses them through mulitplexers U36, U49, U35, and U21 (C5). If Word 1 (Symbol Instructions) says to not display a symbol, the Program Counter is advanced 10 counts by U33, a full adder, which adds 10 to the counter when signal ADD goes low. The Vector Address counter is composed of U10, U11, and U12 (C5) and is loaded with the first address of the Line Instructions from video memory's Character Data Bus, CD0-CD7. The CPU's Data Bus, D0-D7, is brought to the memory through a bi-directional buffer, U14 (C5). The signal labelled FETCH (c5) latches the various Character Data words from memory. The MUX (C5) signal commands the multiplexer ICs to allow either the CPU, Program Counter or Vector Address counter to address memory. MEMR (memory read) and MEMW (memory write) come from the CPU board to read from or write to the RAM. Signal VCE (C5) Vector Clock Enable, increments the Vector Address counter. PCC (Program Counter Clock) is the string of pulses that advances the Program Counter; PCR (Program Counter Reset) ensures that the Program Counter starts counting at the first location in video RAM each time PCR goes low. This signal occurs first at power-up and then 40 times a second during program execution. So, it causes the X-Y monitor to draw and re-draw each symbol on the screen 40 times a second. The signal is generated from the master clock (crystal Y1 and U14, T7) by U31-U34 and U22 (T7). The other clock signals (VCE, PCC, FETCH, ADD, MUX, and VCL) are all generated by the X-Y timing board (T7). The outputs of the Last Symbol and Last Vector latches (U52, T7) are AND'd together with the signal END, which originates from the Control Board's U18 (C6). When U18's output goes low, it signifies that no more symbols are to be drawn. Then, the Program Counter is reset by the 40 HZ signal to the start of the video memory to repeat the display sequence. U22 (T7) is the DRAW latch and its output, through U21, creates the DRAW signal which initiates a sequence that causes the beam to draw. This sequence occurs on the Timing Board, sheet 6: By this time, all video words have been stored in their proper places in the system. On the Timing Board (T7), the vector angle is in U56, the symbol angle is U55. So, when the DRAW goes high, it causes strings of digitial pulses that represet the vector and symbol angles to be generated. These streams of pulses (from U28, T6) are the ones that clock the X and Y Up/Down counters, shown on T5 (U15-U20). U25 (T6) tells the counters in which direction to count, up or down (D/UX, D/UY). Then the outputs of the Up/Down counters, X and Y, become the digital words that are converted to analog signals by D/A converters U1 and U4 (T5). Op Amps U2 and U3 (T5) convert current from the D/A converters to voltage levels. These levels drive the Vertical and Horizontal inputs to the monitor. Signals DRAW and VCL are combined in U28 (T6) to form DCL (Draw Clock). This signal clocks down the Vector Length counters U15, U16 and U17 (C6) which contain words that represent various lengths of the lines to be displayed. When the counters have counted down to 0, the END signal becomes active. As the X and Y Up/Down counters are clocked, their outputs are sensed by U5-U10 (T5) which are multiplexers. The multiplexers are necessary to tell the system when the beam is off the screen. It does this by generating the BOS signal (T5). Then BOS is AND'd with DRAW at U5 (C6), to blank (turn off) the beam whenever BOS goes low. U3 (C6) compesnsates for the inherent delay in delflecting the electron beams. It provides a number of taps to select a range of delay times. From U2 (C6), the color word is read and applied to the RGB D/A converters U5, U1, and associated diodes and resistors. The RGB outputs go directly to the color X-Y monitor. U50, a 74LS154 (T7) decoder IC, selects one of 15 outputs by making the output low. The outputs sequentially store the video memory words, one at a time, in various parts of the X-Y boards. Only one output is allowed to go low at a time. U50 is enabled at pin 18, fourty times per second by U22 (T7), and at pin 19 by U21. U51 sequences U50 through its 15 count cycle; at count 14, pin 16 of U50 goes low to initiate the DRAW signal through U40, U21 and U22 (t7). The circuitry at the top of schematic C6 (U45, U51-U54) is not used in generating and displaying characters on the X-Y monitor. Its function is to perform lengthy calculations under software control. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sun Aug 24 18:38:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: new G80 scans Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I have the vector generator block diagram and the PC layout drawings for the G80 monitor boards scanned in and up now. The schematics of the control and timing boards were much sharper than the ones in the converta-game manual, so I will be updating the schematics on www.spies.com for those two boards as well as adding the schematics for the G08-001 and -003 monitors that use PNP-NPN outputs. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 06:50:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 25 Aug 1997 08:47 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Frazee's auction (work together)? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Atari trimmer pots", you write: I just caught up on my email and I agree drop out of the bidding for Crazy Frazee's stuff if I can get a couple of W-G baords from whomever wins.... -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 07:02:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:57:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970825090112.009437a0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:01:17 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Frazee's auction (work together)? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 08:47 AM 8/25/97 CDT, you wrote: >In message "Atari trimmer pots", you write: > >I just caught up on my email and I agree drop out of the bidding for >Crazy Frazee's stuff if I can get a couple of W-G baords from whomever >wins.... >-- >THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! > woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net >*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* >"If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because >I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." > Gregg- Didn't the auction end yesterday? If not we all 'ought to work something out. Did you have the highest bid still? Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 08:32:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 25 Aug 1997 10:29 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Re: Frazee's auction (work together)? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Re: Frazee's auction (work together)?", you write: >At 08:47 AM 8/25/97 CDT, you wrote: >>In message "Atari trimmer pots", you write: >> >>I just caught up on my email and I agree drop out of the bidding for >>Crazy Frazee's stuff if I can get a couple of W-G baords from whomever >>wins.... >>-- >>THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! >> woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net >>*CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* >>"If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because >>I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." >> > >Gregg- > >Didn't the auction end yesterday? If not we all 'ought to work something >out. Did you have the highest bid still? I haven't really been paying attention so I'm not sure! -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 08:33:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) X-Sender: jeffh@mail.diac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:32:26 -0600 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: jeffh@diac.com (Jeff Hendrix) Subject: Re: Frazee's auction (work together)? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I would be interested in buying a WG HV unit from whoever wins. -jeff jeffh@diac.com Buy/Sell/Trade classic video arcade games. www.diac.com/~jeffh/ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 08:50:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: so, who won? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Like Greg said, there was an unamed bid, and that was the last I heard about it. Did anyone on this mailing list win? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 09:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970825110306.0094e550@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:03:10 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: so, who won? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 08:50 AM 8/25/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Like Greg said, there was an unamed bid, and that was the last >I heard about it. Did anyone on this mailing list win? > > I email Frazee asking him the details. When I get them I'll tell everyone what he had to say. Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 09:53:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:55:41 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708251655.AA15409@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: so, who won? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com > Like Greg said, there was an unamed bid, and that was the last > I heard about it. Did anyone on this mailing list win? > Last I saw, it was John Robertson at $345 Joe From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 10:03:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: G08 power transistors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I had the chance to pull apart a couple of G08's at an operator's shop over the weekend, and the first thing I noticed was every monitor had a different brand of transistor (mostly house-marked) in the HV assy. From the numbers I was able to cross (like 2SC1308) it looks like they used BU208-like parts. I popped over to Newark's web page and here are some prices: Mot BU208A $3.52 Now, for trying to find 2N6259 replacements: 2N3716 80v 10A 150W 2.59 (sorry, Mr Zanen, not even close..) 2N5631 140v 16A 200W 5.70 (Motorola's cross to the 2N6259) MJ15003 140v 20A 250W 3.56 (This was in the original schematics) 2N6341 150v 25A 200W 17.12 BUV22 250v 40A 250W 10.08 I had a talk with the analog guy in the next cube over this morning, and the difference between the -003 preliminary (?) schematic in the monitor service manual and the more common -003 drawings in the game manuals is that they added short circuit protection, which is what is on the little paddle-boards that connect between the deflection PC board and the power transistors.. Has anyone ever noticed if one 2N6259 blows more often than the other? One thing that my cube-mate mentioned was he thought there might be a stability problem in the design with the 2N6259 connected to the negative rail. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 12:45:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:45:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708251445.ZM24514@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek@motgate.mot.com (Al Kossow) "" (Aug 24, 11:03am) References: <199708251933.PAA03408@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Cc: richard.schieve@lucent.com Subject: Battlezone story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hi all! A co-worker stopped by my office after lunch and said he saw a Battlezone sitting out in the garbage near his apartment. Figuring I could get some parts at the least, I recruited my cubical neighboor who has a truck and we set out to get this Battlezone only two blocks away. Well, to my suprize, it was the very same Battlezone which I had sold to someone a year and a half ago! Monitor and boards were still there! The only thing missing was the foot step, which I had to remove for the seller for him to transport it in his vechile; the bolts were still in the coin box, so I can only speculate he never installed it, and threw it out a long time ago :-(. So anyway, now I have my Battlezone back! Later this week I'll power it up to see if there was a reason for them throwing it out, but it is still in great shape cosmetically. If anyone has parted one of these things out and has a spare foot step laying around, let me know! :-) -- ____________ ______ ___ _____ __ ____________ / __/ / / / |/ / / |/ //|/|/|_______________ Mark Jenison / __/ /_/ / / / | // | / |__ __/ _ /__ \ Sega/Gremlin jenison@ /___/___/_/_//_/_/_/|_//__|/__| / / / // / / Color Vector cig.mot.com /_/|_| /_/ /____/_/|_| Arcade Games ____________ The One and Only 4-player vector game ____________ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 14:33:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970825163126.00939e70@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:31:29 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: so, who won? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 08:50 AM 8/25/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Like Greg said, there was an unamed bid, and that was the last >I heard about it. Did anyone on this mailing list win? > > I still haven't heard from Frazee, but I read rgvac and saw that John Robertson had the last bid (posted) at $345. Is that the John Robertson up in Canada or someone else? Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Mon Aug 25 16:25:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:25:08 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: pinball@istar.ca, vectorlist Subject: XY winner Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Just got off the phone with Paul, John Robertson won the lot at $345. Are you on the vectorlist mailing list, John? There are a bunch of people here who were interested in parts of the lot.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 26 08:10:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:10:14 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: John's reply Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com here was the reply from John about the XY auction. He is on the mailing list now, as well. To: Al Kossow Subject: Re: XY winner References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Al Kossow wrote: > > Just got off the phone with Paul, John Robertson won the lot at $345. > Are you on the vectorlist mailing list, John? There are a bunch of > people here who were interested in parts of the lot.. Hi, Al! No, I am not on the mailing list...would like to be...and the stuff will be for sale after I review my own needs... John :-#)# From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Tue Aug 26 08:15:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970826101452.0095c7c0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:14:55 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: John's reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >Al Kossow wrote: >> >> Just got off the phone with Paul, John Robertson won the lot at $345. >> Are you on the vectorlist mailing list, John? There are a bunch of >> people here who were interested in parts of the lot.. > >Hi, Al! >No, I am not on the mailing list...would like to be...and the stuff will >be for sale after I review my own needs... >John :-#)# > I dropped John a line earlier, also. I bet he quickly gets tired from hearing us vector fanatics :) Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 09:33:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: Vector Posse? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:30:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com G'day folks, Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter cab to back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970827132049.00954d10@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:20:53 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Vector Posse? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >G'day folks, > >Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, > > "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter >cab to > back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " > >I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay >Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) > > Steven S Ozdemir > sso@dsc.com > Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 pds around for something I believe in. Aluminum bat? That would just bounce off my thick skull :) Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:30:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:30:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708271330.ZM7943@calcite> In-Reply-To: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) "Re: Vector Posse?" (Aug 27, 1:20pm) References: <199708271823.OAA24286@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: Vector Posse? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 27, 1:20pm, Mit Matelske wrote: > Subject: Re: Vector Posse? > At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: > >G'day folks, > > > >Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, > > > > "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter > >cab to > > back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " > > > >I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay > >Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) > > > > Steven S Ozdemir > > sso@dsc.com > > > > Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 pds > around for something I believe in. You're going to throw a Battlezone at them? ;-) No wait, that would be 6'4" 350 lbs :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:35:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970827133544.009535a0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:35:48 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Vector Posse? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:30 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Aug 27, 1:20pm, Mit Matelske wrote: >> Subject: Re: Vector Posse? >> At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >G'day folks, >> > >> >Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, >> > >> > "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter >> >cab to >> > back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " >> > >> >I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay >> >Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) >> > >> > Steven S Ozdemir >> > sso@dsc.com >> > >> >> Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 pds >> around for something I believe in. > >You're going to throw a Battlezone at them? ;-) > >No wait, that would be 6'4" 350 lbs :-) > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Battlezone? No, just sold that one :( How about a SW cockpit - now that's some weight !!! (thank God they put some wheels on it) Mit Still need a 25" amplifone tube btw ... From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:37:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: From: "Ozdemir, Steve" To: "'vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com'" Subject: RE: Vector Posse? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:34:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com >---------- >From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM[SMTP:Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM] >At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >>G'day folks, >> >>Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, >> >> "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter >> cab to back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " >> >>I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay >>Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) >Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 pds >around for something I believe in. Aluminum bat? That would just bounce >off my thick skull :) OK, since this is a fight possibly comparable to Tyson's last fight (instead of just a boring San Diego party), I figure I'll be able to get Mark Jenison out here. So that gives us two 6'4" guys (and I'll get another aluminum bat for Mark)! Mit and I can see who's skull is thicker by practicing head butts beforehand. Mark, did you end up picking up that BZ just in case we need to throw something other than Mit at them? I'll bring a catapult and cow (ala Monty Python) just in case... > >Mit > From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:48:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:48:11 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 11:53 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970827115102.2fcfb30c@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Vector Posse? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:35 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 01:30 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>On Aug 27, 1:20pm, Mit Matelske wrote: >>> Subject: Re: Vector Posse? >>> At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >>> >G'day folks, >>> > >>> >Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, >>> > >>> > "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter >>> >cab to >>> > back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " >>> > >>> >I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay >>> >Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) >>> > >>> > Steven S Ozdemir >>> > sso@dsc.com >>> > >>> >>> Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 >pds >>> around for something I believe in. >> >>You're going to throw a Battlezone at them? ;-) >> >>No wait, that would be 6'4" 350 lbs :-) >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >>Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >Battlezone? No, just sold that one :( How about a SW cockpit - >now that's some weight !!! (thank God they put some wheels on it) > >Mit > >Still need a 25" amplifone tube btw ... Has anyone ever looked to see if the 25" amplifone tube crosses to some 25" raster game some where? BTW: I'll be at the Fullerton auction, all 5'10" 140 pounds of me. Grrrr! Let me at 'em Let me at 'em!! -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 11:56:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970827135654.00912250@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:57:00 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: Vector Posse? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:53 AM 8/27/97 PDT, you wrote: >At 01:35 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>At 01:30 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>On Aug 27, 1:20pm, Mit Matelske wrote: >>>> Subject: Re: Vector Posse? >>>> At 09:30 AM 8/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >>>> >G'day folks, >>>> > >>>> >Did you all see that post from the Mesquite auction where someone said, >>>> > >>>> > "I'm there brotha - I've got the aluminum bat in the old Street Fighter >>>> >cab to >>>> > back us up when the Vector Posse come looking for us. " >>>> > >>>> >I guess we'd be the Vector Posse, eh? So who's coming down from the Bay >>>> >Area to back me up when I go to the Fullerton auction?? 8^) 8^) 8^) >>>> > >>>> > Steven S Ozdemir >>>> > sso@dsc.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> Man, am I kicking myself for leaving early. I love throwing my 6'4" 260 >>pds >>>> around for something I believe in. >>> >>>You're going to throw a Battlezone at them? ;-) >>> >>>No wait, that would be 6'4" 350 lbs :-) >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com >>>Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >>Battlezone? No, just sold that one :( How about a SW cockpit - >>now that's some weight !!! (thank God they put some wheels on it) >> >>Mit >> >>Still need a 25" amplifone tube btw ... > >Has anyone ever looked to see if the 25" amplifone tube crosses to some 25" >raster game some where? > >BTW: I'll be at the Fullerton auction, all 5'10" 140 pounds of me. Grrrr! >Let me at 'em Let me at 'em!! > >-Zonn > > Calm down Zonn - don't want you hurting that brain of yours that most of us use as a library for fixing Cine stuff ... Crossing with an available raster tube !! Now that's a dream 8^) Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Wed Aug 27 15:53:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:53:15 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: deflection coil values Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com If anyone is curious, I measured the inductance and DC resistance of three different XY deflection yokes today. Here's the measured values: type wire color L DC R notes ----------- ---------- ----- -------- --------- Triad-Utrad blue .41mH .43 ohms 21-143-01 red 17-8121 green .52mH 1.0 ohms Electrohome yellow G08-003 Color Triad-Utrad yellow .70mH .73 ohms X on schem 9A2806-001B black 17-8145 blue .92mH 1.3 ohms Y on schem Wells-Garner red Color ?? black 1.42mH 2.41 ohms X on schem PN 21-139-02 yellow 17-8029 blue 1.63mH 1.47 ohms Y on schem Electrohome red G05 (B&W) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 07:24:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:24:40 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 28 Aug 1997 08:05 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Gregg Woodcock" Subject: Will you test my Amplifone boards? Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Would anybody out there be willing to test a handful of Amplifone deflection boards and 1 or 2 HV units for me (obviously, you'd have to have a currently working Amplifone monitor)? I promised to send a guy some working stuff but it is all mixed together... -- THANX...Gregg day 214.684.7380 night UNLIST/PUBL TEXAS NOT CANADA! woodcock@nortel.com or woodcock@dfwmm.net *CLASSIC VIDEOGAME COLLECTOR BUY/SELL/TRADE NON-COMPUTER (ARCADE/HOME)* "If you quote me on this I'll have to deny it; I won't remember because I have such a bad memory. Not only that, but my memory is *terrible*." From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 08:21:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:21:27 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: vector monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Joel said: "It sure would be nice to take an off the shelf audio amp and use it as a replacement" I've been talking to one of Apple's main analog desing guys (who happens to sit in the next cube over from me) about the design of the deflection circuits and he showed me some of the problems with the deflection amps. He just shook his head and rolled his eyes when I showed him the G08 deflection amp design. The Wells designs are pretty conventional designs (they just look like high- power op amps) but the lack of overcurrent protection in the output stage is a problem (which is patched by the input protection circuits that were added) The problem with these designs is the huge ammount of power burned across the output transistors when the deflection voltage is large. We guestimated >180 W of power is being burned there. There is a current limiting curcuit (and snubber diodes) on the later G08 boards (the ones with the little paddle boards going to the deflection transistors) but that doesn't do you any good when the transistor shorts due to the junctions melting We measured the characteristics of the yokes yesterday to try to see why the deflection rates would be better on the G08, and to see what the DC and AC characteristics were. I've started to look at different designs for a class-D MOSFET deflection amplifier design which is MUCH more efficent (~90%) and would require almost two orders of magnitude less power dissipated in the output transistors. I'm also trying to see if the same design could be used in the three XY color monitor designs. One of the problems is trying to figure out what the little black box in the G08 design is doing. If it's just an error amplifier for the two channels (as the block diagram shows) or if there is any X-Y correction going on in there as well, since the Sega games have no VDR's or analog multiplier correction circuits like the Atari games have. One thing I'd be curious to see is the WG 6400 schematics to see if they did anything different in the deflection circuits. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 08:26:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:26:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708281026.ZM5433@calcite> In-Reply-To: aek@motgate.mot.com (Al Kossow) "vector monitors" (Aug 28, 8:21am) References: <199708281525.LAA27943@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: vector monitors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 28, 8:21am, Al Kossow wrote: > Subject: vector monitors > > I'm also trying to see if the same design could be used > in the three XY color monitor designs. One of the problems > is trying to figure out what the little black box in the > G08 design is doing. If it's just an error amplifier for > the two channels (as the block diagram shows) or if there > is any X-Y correction going on in there as well, since > the Sega games have no VDR's or analog multiplier correction > circuits like the Atari games have. I know there is some "bowing" correction circuitry in the G08. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 08:54:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:49:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Anders Knudsen X-Sender: andersk@hops To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: vector monitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Al Kossow wrote: > One thing I'd be curious to see is the WG 6400 schematics > to see if they did anything different in the deflection > circuits. > I just got done talking to David Fish, who has a "multi-generation" copy of the WG64 schematic. He is sending me a copy, but says that it is very hard to read. Anywho, there is a description, courtesy of Dave Fish, of the differences in components between the WG 61 and WG 64 monitors up on Jess's web site. Basically they beefed up some components, put two deflection transistors for each stage and moved them off the chassis onto heat sinks. It does not sound like it was the redesign to end all redesigns! I myself am working on redoing the p314 deflection board. Not being into the cinn or sega stuff, I have not considered the implications of creating a multi-purpose deflection unit. So, I am going to continue to plug along with my WG 61 "bulletproof" deflection redo. I have a couple of viable designs down on paper now, and am planning on doing some spice sims to make sure I get what I expected. Still its slow going when you have a million other things going on... Hopefully I should have a redo ready to layout in a month or so! We'll see... +------------------------------------------+ | Anders Knudsen | ASIC Design Engineer | Adaptec, Inc., Boulder Technology Center +------------------------------------------+ From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 09:14:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:14:24 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: vector monitors Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com if you were going to stick with the class AB output, you might consider looking at the Linear Technology class AB driver part, which has a bunch of nice features built into it. National was working on a complete 150 W class D driver IC, but it doesn't look like it made it into production.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 14:52:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: vdr characteristics Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I took two of the little green VDR's off of a Tempest board, and put them on a curve tracer. It appears they act like: I = V^3 Here is the plot V I 0 0 1 5uA 2 30uA 3 90uA 4 250uA 5 500uA 6 800uA 7 1.3mA 8 2mA 9 3mA 10 4mA 12 8mA From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 17:12:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: interesting part Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Apex Microtechnology SA02 PWM amplifier 80v max in 10A continuous out. Looks like you could run it off of the +V side of either the WG or G08 supply (needs +12 too..) and have most of the deflection circuit done, except for an external error amp. Has current limiting and overtemp protection. I'll have to find out how much they want for them. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 17:34:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 17:39 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970828173656.226fcc04@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: interesting part Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 05:12 PM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Apex Microtechnology SA02 PWM amplifier > >80v max in 10A continuous out. Looks like you could run it off of the +V >side of either the WG or G08 supply (needs +12 too..) and have most of >the deflection circuit done, except for an external error amp. Has current >limiting and overtemp protection. I'll have to find out how much they >want for them. Getting a PWM amplifier to run the deflection would be really cool (pardon the pun). Can this amplifier use split voltages? Or is it a bridged output? You're going to need to drive current through the yoke in both directions. If it's a bridged output you might have a hard time supplying the error correction needed. I'm not sure where you would tap to determine the amount of current flowing through the yoke. Be sure to use a current to voltage resistor as your part of your feedback. Most amplifiers use voltage feedback as their error correction. The big difference between the deflection amps and a standard audio amp is the way they feed back the error correction. Since the yokes are very inductive, the voltage across the yoke does not always indicate the current flowing through it, and the amount of deflection is controlled by the amount of current flowing through the yoke, not the voltage across the yoke, hence the current to voltage resistor -- those big 10-20w Non-Inductive resistors that all deflection boards use. Good luck, I've seriously thought about doing this, but it's that damned *time* thing. Somebody want to sell me some of their free time? -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Thu Aug 28 18:18:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: PWM Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com the SA02 has a single positive supply, the output is an H bridge ..damn, keep forgetting about having to drive the yoke in BOTH directions. the other guy helping me with this at work and I were wondering the same thing about where to measure the current. ..and we have noticed the current to voltage power resistor :-) Zonn, have you ever taken a scope and measured what the maximum voltage is at the horiz and vertical deflection coils of a G08 (driver side, obviously..) From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 08:35:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970829103323.00918800@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:33:41 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: ESB cockpit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I figure ya'll are the experts, so ... Jess has an ESB cockpit for sale (kinda - for a friend) and I was wondering how rare those beasts are? I know that it is just a converted SW cockpit, but ever since I got my SW I wanted to put a matching one next to it with that ESB marquee in it :) Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 08:39:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender jenison@cig.mot.com ) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:39:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Jenison Message-Id: <9708291039.ZM27458@calcite> In-Reply-To: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) "ESB cockpit" (Aug 29, 10:33am) References: <199708291537.LAA16647@po_box.cig.mot.com> X-face: "@9[FFAftX<9}2=gaPlIyRv_K%h[>.@"8t}B2So!iv.\#M9NplA9bDudBQ|]E`WL9Kd,Tn2v.0OGcE<$yg{&}(m:mB\GO9L+yE}6=d17BM X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: ESB cockpit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com On Aug 29, 10:33am, Mit Matelske wrote: > Subject: ESB cockpit > > I figure ya'll are the experts, so ... > > Jess has an ESB cockpit for sale (kinda - for a friend) and I was > wondering how rare those beasts are? I know that it is just a > converted SW cockpit, but ever since I got my SW I wanted to put > a matching one next to it with that ESB marquee in it :) I have an NOS ESB cockpit marquee that I'd like to get rid of for either an NOS Star Wars marquee (yeah, right), an ESB marquee in good condition, or something else desirable :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Jenison E-mail address: jenison@cig.mot.com Cellular Infrastructure Group Motorola--Arlington Heights, IL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 09:21:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:24:00 -0500 From: jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com (Joseph J. Welser) Message-Id: <9708291624.AA05945@maileng3> To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Amplifone HV Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Fellow vector posse, I just swapped an Amplifone back into my Quantum, and have made the determination that my HV transformer is bad (surprise, surprise.) The only reason why I post this is because of all the mention of the BLACK HV transformers being indestructable, and this is the kind we're talking about here.... I have good +-24V. I measured the following voltages (rounded) on the BU406D (which I tested, and it looks good) B: -24V, E: -24V, C: +24V Now, having a Vbe of ~0 surprised me at first, but it seems that the BU406D has an internal resistor between the Base and Emitter. The other thing that sounds off warning bells is the 48V Vce. The BU406D was cool to the touch, and with 48V across that CE junction, I figured it should be at least warm (if there was any current flowing through it.) I'm getting a B+ of like 22V or 23V (I'm sure it's 24V minus the diode drop of CR3) So whaddaya think? I've read Gregg's FAQ, and there isn't much about the Amplifone in there.... Thanks, Joe BTW: If I didn't mention it explicitly, I'm not getting any high voltage. I don't hear a high-pitched tone, or a crackle, or anything from the HV unit. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 11:08:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:03:07 -0600 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Amplifone HV To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Message-id: <34070EDB.6B15@links.magenta.com> Organization: Believe me, I have none!! MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <9708291624.AA05945@maileng3> Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Joseph J. Welser wrote: > > Fellow vector posse, > > I just swapped an Amplifone back into my Quantum, and have made the > determination that my HV transformer is bad (surprise, surprise.) > > The only reason why I post this is because of all the mention of > the BLACK HV transformers being indestructable, and this is the kind we're > talking about here.... > Yep!! > I have good +-24V. I measured the following voltages (rounded) on the > BU406D (which I tested, and it looks good) B: -24V, E: -24V, C: +24V > > Now, having a Vbe of ~0 surprised me at first, but it seems that the > BU406D has an internal resistor between the Base and Emitter. The other thing > that sounds off warning bells is the 48V Vce. The BU406D was cool to the > touch, and with 48V across that CE junction, I figured it should be at least > warm (if there was any current flowing through it.) well with a Vbe of 0V then the transistor would be turned off and therefore no current would flow through the ec junction. It is tricky to work on those without a scope since the base drive comes from an isolation transformer at 20KHz. Most of the time the BU406D's are bad if the flyback is bad. There is not an internal resistor in them, only an internal diode across the C and E. If it doesn't read like a normal transistor (plus a reverse biased diode across the C and E) then it is bad. If you look at the base voltage on a scope you should have some 20KHz noise on there and even some on the collector. With a voltmeter though you will get rail voltages, especially if the flyback is bad. Your symptoms sound just like mine were, I replaced the flyback and the BU406D. Works great now. good luck jess -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 11:08:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:55:40 -0600 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: ESB cockpit To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Message-id: <34070D1C.67AD@links.magenta.com> Organization: Believe me, I have none!! MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <3.0.32.19970829103323.00918800@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Mit Matelske wrote: > > I figure ya'll are the experts, so ... > > Jess has an ESB cockpit for sale (kinda - for a friend) and I was > wondering how rare those beasts are? I know that it is just a > converted SW cockpit, but ever since I got my SW I wanted to put > a matching one next to it with that ESB marquee in it :) > > Mit I believe that it is in excellent condition and serial #37. It may have a Wells-Gardner monitor in it. -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 12:14:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970829120423.00888c60@frobozz.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sswazey@frobozz.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:04:23 -0700 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Scott Swazey Subject: WTD: Scan of Major havoc control panel and Marque In-Reply-To: <34070D1C.67AD@links.magenta.com> References: <3.0.32.19970829103323.00918800@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Hello, I Just got my dedicated Major havoc up and running (UR #00020)! Unfortunately, The control panel was JAMAized :-(, so it's got lots of extra holes in it. I have been unsuccessful at locating a replacement control panel. So... would someone send me an 11x17 scan of a control panel and marque in a non .jpg format (TIFF prefered)? Thanks, -Scott Scott Swazey QUALCOMM Incorporated Work: (619) 657-2419 mailto:sswazey@qualcomm.com V-209H Pager:(619) 683-5210 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 12:41:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:37:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970829144040.00951460@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:40:43 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: ESB cockpit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 11:55 AM 8/29/97 -0600, you wrote: >Mit Matelske wrote: >> >> I figure ya'll are the experts, so ... >> >> Jess has an ESB cockpit for sale (kinda - for a friend) and I was >> wondering how rare those beasts are? I know that it is just a >> converted SW cockpit, but ever since I got my SW I wanted to put >> a matching one next to it with that ESB marquee in it :) >> >> Mit > >I believe that it is in excellent condition and serial #37. It may have >a Wells-Gardner monitor in it. >-- >Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page >ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc >509 S. 2nd Street Unit B >Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 > Damn! Damn! Damn! Am I ever going to get a 25" Amplifone!!!!! Did Wells put out a monitor with a 25" tube? Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 13:17:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34072E32.547DB1FF@telis.org> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:16:50 -0700 From: Bill Esquivel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: ESB cockpit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.32.19970829144040.00951460@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com My SD star wars is using a wells hardware to run the 25" amp tube. Its not the first I have seen running like this. Later, bill Mit Matelske wrote: > At 11:55 AM 8/29/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Mit Matelske wrote: > >> > >> I figure ya'll are the experts, so ... > >> > >> Jess has an ESB cockpit for sale (kinda - for a friend) and I was > >> wondering how rare those beasts are? I know that it is just a > >> converted SW cockpit, but ever since I got my SW I wanted to put > >> a matching one next to it with that ESB marquee in it :) > >> > >> Mit > > > >I believe that it is in excellent condition and serial #37. It may > have > >a Wells-Gardner monitor in it. > >-- > >Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page > >ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc > >509 S. 2nd Street Unit B > >Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 > > > > Damn! Damn! Damn! > > Am I ever going to get a 25" Amplifone!!!!! > > Did Wells put out a monitor with a 25" tube? > > Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 13:25:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:24:43 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was identical to that on a Tempest. Also, does anyone have any opinions why the Quantum PCB HAS the XY correction circuit, when it shipped with an Ampliphone monitor? I was wondering, Zonn, which games you have tried your modified WG monitor that drives the deflection amps from the unregulated supply? On games with the correction circuit, is the display "overcorrected" now? From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 13:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:26:02 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: ESB cockpit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Could someone jot down the part number of the deflection yoke on a 25" monitor? Would be interesting to see how different they are from the 19" ones.. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 13:58:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:58:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Posted-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970829155806.00950700@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: mmatelsk@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:58:08 -0500 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Mit_Matelske@BayNetworks.COM (Mit Matelske) Subject: Re: ESB cockpit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:26 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >Could someone jot down the part number of the deflection yoke >on a 25" monitor? > >Would be interesting to see how different they are from the 19" >ones.. > They are ... I cannot tell you what the part #'s are though, since I'am at work :( Mit From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 14:13:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 14:19 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970829141558.24c78bf8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 01:24 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board >to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are >subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different >game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was >identical to that on a Tempest. > >Also, does anyone have any opinions why the Quantum PCB >HAS the XY correction circuit, when it shipped with an >Ampliphone monitor? > >I was wondering, Zonn, which games you have tried your >modified WG monitor that drives the deflection amps from >the unregulated supply? On games with the correction >circuit, is the display "overcorrected" now? Weve done a bit of experimenting with driving the deflection circuits with unregulated voltages, and regulation just the HV. It doesn't change the pincussion correction at all, but it does have an affect on the vector stability. You just can't get the solid non jittery display that you can get with a regulated deflection supply. I believe the problems goes back to that current feedback design. In an audio amplifier (which I was using as my justification for removing the regulator) the feed back is the voltage across the speaker. If the supply voltages change, the feedback will still keep the voltage across the speaker rock solid because of the feedback in the error correction. The deflection circuits get their feedback from the other side of the yoke, and it appears it needs a constant voltage in order to properly control the varying current. I'm unsure of all the math behind the what happens when you vary the voltage on an inductor, and then control the current through it, and what exactly happens. But based on experimentation all I can say is that if you regulate the deflection circuits, you can acheive a very stable rock solid display. If you don't, your display is going to jitter. The jitter is not real bad -- in an arcade I'm sure most wouldn't even notice. It does make me wonder how a properly working Amplifone compares with a regulated WG for vector steadiness. But for now I owe Gaymond a GO-8 fix. Yuck. And on that note, the Cosmic Chasm I have uses a GO-8-CC0, which is the beefed up version of the GO-8-CB0 which is every Sega Monitor I've seen except for the Cosmic Chasm. One thing cool about it is that it uses the higher res Amplifone type 19" tube. They've re-laid out the circuit board to remove all the daughter boards and use heftier heat sinks (no more of thos copper foil things). And according to a paragraph in Gregg's X/Y FAQ, these were supposed to have other changes that fixed all there old problems. Right. Of course I've never had any problems with this monitor, and it was *working* when I got the game! The biggest change is the output drive transistors. They're using STD-1064s which I couldn't find an exact spec on, but I did find a cross to a "similar" Motorola part, the 2N6465. It has a slightly lower current rating (8 amps instead of 10) but the voltage surges on the new transistor is huge. over 450v, or over 800 volts if the base is floating, and has been specifically designed to withstand a certain amount of reverse breakdown voltage *without* being destroyed. The data spec claims its specifically designed to run deflection circuits and other inductive loads. They're the only ones in the Motorola manual with these ratings, that had the needed gain to replace the current ones. If I had to pick a replacement, these would have been them. This certainly helps justify Rodger Boots claim that the killer of these deflection transistors is not current/overwattage but inductive kicks. Rodger works on military monitors that are capable of switching back and forth between raster and vector mode on a frame by frame basis. (Allows for built in overlays on a vector display --- Coooooool!). He says the big killer is voltage spikes and thought some properly chosen 500v MosFets might be made to work -- with some redesign. It looks like Sega found some transistors with the same ratings. This make some sense to me since I've never had a deflection transistor "Melt down" -- unless the CPU has died and left the transistor at maximum deflection. They mostly seem to die at the off/on transition -- or for now particular reason. I've had Tempest just "go out" on me, and I immediatly felt transistors. They were not at any "melt down", boil a drop of water (I wet my finger first!!), temperatures -- but the heatsinks could quickly dissapate this heat, so who knows. I found 6 of these transistor (2N6465) at a surplus store and bought them. Gaymond's G-08 needs some new deflection transistors, I'll try these and let you know how they work. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 14:30:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:32:14 -0600 From: Jess Askey Subject: Re: Major Havoc -> Tempest Adapter Schematic To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Message-id: <34073FDE.E2E@links.magenta.com> Organization: Believe me, I have none!! MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Al Kossow wrote: > > Could someone scan in the schematic for the adapter board > to put a Major Havoc into a Tempest? I've noticed there are > subtle tweeks to the multiplier values for the different > game implementations, and was wondering if this circuit was > identical to that on a Tempest. I will scan them tonight and put them up on my page. jess -- Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc 509 S. 2nd Street Unit B Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001 From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 14:36:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: 29 Aug 1997 12:41 CDT To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: "Mark Shostak" Subject: re:Amplifone HV Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com In message "Amplifone HV", jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com wrote: > Fellow vector posse, > > I have good +-24V. I measured the following voltages (rounded) on the > BU406D (which I tested, and it looks good) B: -24V, E: -24V, C: +24V > BTW: If I didn't mention it explicitly, I'm not getting any high voltage. I > don't hear a high-pitched tone, or a crackle, or anything from the HV unit. > DC on the base? Did you check the oscillator? Cheers, Mark From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 14:50:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 14:56 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970829145307.2b47a97a@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: re:Amplifone HV Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 12:41 PM 8/29/97 CDT, you wrote: >In message "Amplifone HV", jwelser@crystal.cirrus.com wrote: > >> Fellow vector posse, >> >> I have good +-24V. I measured the following voltages (rounded) on the >> BU406D (which I tested, and it looks good) B: -24V, E: -24V, C: +24V > >> BTW: If I didn't mention it explicitly, I'm not getting any high voltage. I >> don't hear a high-pitched tone, or a crackle, or anything from the HV unit. >> > >DC on the base? Did you check the oscillator? Also make sure the high voltage "overvoltage" circuit is not triggering and disabling the oscillator. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 15:21:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:20:36 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist Subject: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Talking to the guy in the next cube, the NPN-NPN design of the G08 will have a problem with inductive kick in one direction that the PNP/NPN designs won't have. He also thought that the relatively low voltage ratings of the 3716/19 might make this a problem for the WG as well. The other thing he was wondering if you only drove the output transistors from the unregulated supply or the diff amp and pre driver as well. If the negative rail isn't well regulated in the diff amp, you are going to inject a whole bunch of noise through the current source. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 16:13:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 16:19 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970829161600.13770542@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 03:20 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Talking to the guy in the next cube, the NPN-NPN design of the G08 >will have a problem with inductive kick in one direction that the >PNP/NPN designs won't have. Since everything going to the yoke is symmetrical, it seems like any kind of kick you get in one direction you can show that by reversing all currents involved you see a kick in the other direction. It does allow for the use of high voltage deflection transistors that are not manufactured in a PNP form. >He also thought that the relatively low voltage ratings of the >3716/19 might make this a problem for the WG as well. > >The other thing he was wondering if you only drove the output >transistors from the unregulated supply or the diff amp and >pre driver as well. If the negative rail isn't well regulated >in the diff amp, you are going to inject a whole bunch of noise >through the current source. That's a really good point I had not taken into account! This is definitely something to try! Regulate the error amp, and not the drivers. From memory I believe there is a resistor between the voltage supplies and the error amps that looks as though it's part a simple R/C that helps regulate the error amps power. I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 16:26:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:26:52 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:26:48 -0700 (PDT) From: aek (Al Kossow) To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. yup.. that's what they did in the ampliphone. We also just figured out what the two multipliers do in the WG vector generator design; they multiply the square of the opposite channel's deflection value, scaled down by a voltage divider to the channel's value prior to it being scaled by the pot/VDR linearity circuit. From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Fri Aug 29 17:18:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 17:24 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970829172106.136f20e8@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: zonn@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com From: Zonn Subject: Re: G08's and inductive kick Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com At 04:26 PM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'll bet removing those resistors and replacing the >voltage with regulated voltages could possibly give a nice solid display >without having to have, high power, low voltage, regulation. > >yup.. that's what they did in the ampliphone. > >We also just figured out what the two multipliers do in the WG vector >generator design; they multiply the square of the opposite channel's >deflection value, scaled down by a voltage divider to the channel's >value prior to it being scaled by the pot/VDR linearity circuit. I posted somewhere what those things were doing, if I wasn't so lazy I'd have written a FAQ or something. >From reading a lot of different sources I found that in some yoke/CRT shape combinations (especially the older tubes/yokes) there is an affect where the farther from the center of your CRT the beam is, the more affect the yoke has on moving it. I never really was able to find out why, maybe something to do with the inverse square law and the distance from the gun and the high voltage grid attracting the electrons. The farther the distance the less attractive force, leading to more "blooming". Whatever the reason, since the diagonal corners are farther from the gun than the center of the screen, as the beam moves from the top left corner down towards the lower left corner it has reaches a point in the center of the screen where the beam travels the least distance and the yoke has less affect, so the beam is not deflected as far. Then as it continues its travel when it finally makes it to the lower left hand corner it is now farthest away and the yoke has the most affect on the beam you end up with the: . . . . . . . . affect. Since the affect of the X axis is dependent upon the position of the Y axis the correction circuit for X is based on Y. I guess since the top and bottom of the screen are closer to the guns there is less of this sort of effect. I noticed on Tempest they have the pincussioning correction for the X and Y axis and have disabled the Y axis correction by not populating some resistors. The linearity corrects the same problem. Blooming at the edges. Since the beam has farther to travel towards the edges, the yoke has a greater affect and things would get bigger towards the edges if not corrected for. I don't know why B&W monitors and the newer Color tubes are less affected by pincussioning, but are still affected by blooming, except that I've read it has to do with the design of the tube/yoke combination. They've obviously extended the distance between the guns and the front of the screen in amplifone tubes, the would decrease the distance ratio between the edges of the tube and center, maybe that helps. I've noticed all tubes in the newer raster displays (there are no *new* X/Y monitors :^( ) have the bulbous length of the amplifone tube, this must help them to deal with pincussioning. -Zonn From goonsquad.spies.com!owner-vectorlist Sat Aug 30 14:24:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by goonsquad.spies.com via sendmail with stdio id for vectorlist-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #5 built 1996-Dec-13) Message-ID: <34088873.5934@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:54:12 -0500 From: Bob Wood Organization: tit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Subject: neo-geo package References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vectorlist@goonsquad.spies.com Took me all week to find a suitable box to fit all that stuff into but I found one and got it off yesterday. The UPS tracking number is 1Z 340 X18 03 1234 221 3 I had only one title card for the two cartridges so I sent you some extra stuff to make up for it (a neo-geo cardboard monitor bezel and the little doohickey which goes behind the two slot marquee and lights the title cards). BOB