From ray@mayo.EDU Thu May 11 11:16:24 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA04019; Thu, 11 May 95 11:16:24 -0500 Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07506; Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:42 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA05415; Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:45 -0500 Message-Id: <9505111603.AA05415@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:44 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Hacking sounds boards for Cinematronics hardware Cc: ray@mayo.EDU Reply-To: ray@mayo.EDU Organization: Mayo Foundation Hi Folks, I've been pinging on people individually about different ways to use a digital sound board on standard Cinematronics hardware (goal is put all game code and sounds on a couple or really big EPROMs) Anyway, rather than continually forward messages around, I created a mailing list, similar to the one I maintain for folks interested in hacking Williams hardware to be switchable between 8 different games (wlms@nero.mayo.edu for those who may be interested). This list has been very successful in helping discuss ideas, coordinate projects and tasks, all while maintaining an extremely high signal to noise ratio. Currently mail to cnma@nero.mayo.edu gets forwarded to: ray@mayo.edu ofoz@intgp1.att.com phkahler@oakland.edu kurt_mahan@novell.com (let me know about additions and deletions, since I maintain the list by hand) Anyway, my current tact is to explore the possibility of interfacing a Williams sound board with the Cinematronics hardware (when all you have is a hammer... ;-) Since most of the sound signals are digital enable/disable signals, this should be straight forward (note I did not say easy ;-), assuming we can figure out how to program the sounds for the Wlms sound board. Even if we can't we can always just digitize the entire waveform and use write a small 6800 program to play them on the sound board (thanks to Sean Riddle for the idea) EPROM space is a lot cheaper today than it was in 1982, so this is a reasonable option. Unfortunately, there are some signals that are not straight enable/disable that need to be dealt with. Here are the simple signals for the two games I have (and have docs for): Star Castle ----------- J4-12 Loud explosion J4-13 Soft explosion J4-14 Laser sound Rip Off ------- J4-14 Torpedo J4-15 Laser J4-16 Explosion All the other sounds are encoded into a serial stream that is clocked into an 8 line shift register, then clocked into a latch (obviously a way to try and get more signals to the sound board) Each game uses one line for serial data, one clock line to the shift register, and one line for a load pulse to the latch. Here are the gooey details: Rip Off ------- J4-11 Serial data J4-12 Shift clock J4-13 Latch load pulse Latch signals: Background frequency and pitch control (3 select lines) Background enable Beep Motor 1 Star Castle ----------- J4-11 Latch load pulse J4-15 Shift clock J4-16 Serial data Latch signals: Background frequency and pitch control (3 select lines) Background enable Thrust enable Star enable Shield enable Fireball enable Not too bad to deal with. A couple 4066s in between the cpu board and the new sound board should be able to move the input control signals so that they can share the same serial->parallel circuit, then only enable/disable signals can be sent to the new sound board, right? Tricky part is the multiple encoding lines for the frequency/pitch of the background sounds, but a big enough EPROM could solve that problem. Things are starting to get complex, but still manageable. Of course, the scheme only accomadates 2 games so far, so I'm fearful it will collapse under its own weight. Questions for you folks: How do the sound signals to the Armor Attack and Solar Quest sound boards look like? How about Space Wars, Warrior, and Tail Gunner? (or any other games you may be interested in?) I want to get a handle on the scope of the problem before trying to devise a real general purpose solution. Thanks --- Ray Ghanbari Mayo Foundation ray@mayo.edu From cnma Thu May 11 11:16:45 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA04087; Thu, 11 May 95 11:16:45 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07521; Thu, 11 May 95 11:04:04 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA04023; Thu, 11 May 95 11:16:30 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07506; Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:42 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA05415; Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:45 -0500 Message-Id: <9505111603.AA05415@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:03:44 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Hacking sounds boards for Cinematronics hardware Cc: ray@mayo.EDU Organization: Mayo Foundation Hi Folks, I've been pinging on people individually about different ways to use a digital sound board on standard Cinematronics hardware (goal is put all game code and sounds on a couple or really big EPROMs) Anyway, rather than continually forward messages around, I created a mailing list, similar to the one I maintain for folks interested in hacking Williams hardware to be switchable between 8 different games (wlms@nero.mayo.edu for those who may be interested). This list has been very successful in helping discuss ideas, coordinate projects and tasks, all while maintaining an extremely high signal to noise ratio. Currently mail to cnma@nero.mayo.edu gets forwarded to: ray@mayo.edu ofoz@intgp1.att.com phkahler@oakland.edu kurt_mahan@novell.com (let me know about additions and deletions, since I maintain the list by hand) Anyway, my current tact is to explore the possibility of interfacing a Williams sound board with the Cinematronics hardware (when all you have is a hammer... ;-) Since most of the sound signals are digital enable/disable signals, this should be straight forward (note I did not say easy ;-), assuming we can figure out how to program the sounds for the Wlms sound board. Even if we can't we can always just digitize the entire waveform and use write a small 6800 program to play them on the sound board (thanks to Sean Riddle for the idea) EPROM space is a lot cheaper today than it was in 1982, so this is a reasonable option. Unfortunately, there are some signals that are not straight enable/disable that need to be dealt with. Here are the simple signals for the two games I have (and have docs for): Star Castle ----------- J4-12 Loud explosion J4-13 Soft explosion J4-14 Laser sound Rip Off ------- J4-14 Torpedo J4-15 Laser J4-16 Explosion All the other sounds are encoded into a serial stream that is clocked into an 8 line shift register, then clocked into a latch (obviously a way to try and get more signals to the sound board) Each game uses one line for serial data, one clock line to the shift register, and one line for a load pulse to the latch. Here are the gooey details: Rip Off ------- J4-11 Serial data J4-12 Shift clock J4-13 Latch load pulse Latch signals: Background frequency and pitch control (3 select lines) Background enable Beep Motor 1 Star Castle ----------- J4-11 Latch load pulse J4-15 Shift clock J4-16 Serial data Latch signals: Background frequency and pitch control (3 select lines) Background enable Thrust enable Star enable Shield enable Fireball enable Not too bad to deal with. A couple 4066s in between the cpu board and the new sound board should be able to move the input control signals so that they can share the same serial->parallel circuit, then only enable/disable signals can be sent to the new sound board, right? Tricky part is the multiple encoding lines for the frequency/pitch of the background sounds, but a big enough EPROM could solve that problem. Things are starting to get complex, but still manageable. Of course, the scheme only accomadates 2 games so far, so I'm fearful it will collapse under its own weight. Questions for you folks: How do the sound signals to the Armor Attack and Solar Quest sound boards look like? How about Space Wars, Warrior, and Tail Gunner? (or any other games you may be interested in?) I want to get a handle on the scope of the problem before trying to devise a real general purpose solution. Thanks --- Ray Ghanbari Mayo Foundation ray@mayo.edu From cnma Thu May 11 20:23:44 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA01785; Thu, 11 May 95 20:23:44 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA15579; Thu, 11 May 95 20:11:22 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA01720; Thu, 11 May 95 20:23:38 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from ns.Novell.COM by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from zeus.USG.Provo.Novell.COM by ns.Novell.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04704; Thu, 11 May 95 19:12:10 MDT Message-Id: <9505120112.AA04704@ns.Novell.COM> Received: from kmahan by zeus.USG.Provo.Novell.COM; Thu, 11 May 95 18:21 MDT Subject: Re: Hacking sounds boards for Cinematronics hardware To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:21:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 680 > Anyway, my current tact is to explore the possibility of interfacing a > Williams sound board with the Cinematronics hardware (when all you have is a > hammer... ;-) Since most of the sound signals are digital enable/disable > signals, this should be straight forward (note I did not say easy ;-), > assuming we can figure out how to program the sounds for the Wlms sound board. Which soundboard? The original one that has been in most willy games like joust and robotron, or the "new" board that hasn't been around as long and is in those fun games like trog/narc/mk/etc.. The new one might be easier (even though there aren't a million of them around.. Kurt From cnma Thu May 11 23:17:56 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA02159; Thu, 11 May 95 23:17:56 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA16754; Thu, 11 May 95 23:05:41 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA02095; Thu, 11 May 95 23:17:50 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id AAA11125; Fri, 12 May 1995 00:05:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199505120405.AAA11125@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Hacking sounds boards To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 00:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Cc: cnma X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3520 Hey guys, I've been thinking about Cinematronics sound off and on for a while now since we will need to do something about it in the emulator. It's true that most of the sounds are triggered by single output bits, but there are some major exceptions. Most games use a shift register to effectively increase the number of outputs which is simple enough but not all the sounds can simply be digitized. Oh, BTW don't use 4066s just use TTL multiplexors to get the right bits to the right places. I suppose an overview of sound hardware would help, so let me grab my manuals here..... Space Wars: ----------- I seem to recall there are 5 on-off type outputs to control sounds. Even if there is wave shaping you can still digitize them and use the output as a trigger to start playing samples. Star Castle: ------------ Uses a shift register for extra outputs which mostly behave like Space Wars. There is an exception though: 3 of the outputs go into a 3-bit D/A converter. The analog output controls a VCO (voltage controlled Oscillator) who's output is converted to TTL. The problem is that there is an RC circuit with a long (10sec) time constant between the D/A and the VCO. This can not be simulated by triggering digitized sounds. The voltage could be rising (between levels) and suddenly they tell it to go back down! This sound is an important part of the game IMHO. RipOff: ------- Similar to Star Castle. Includes another RC circuit controlling a VCO with some other goofy stuff after that. Again you can't just sample the sound because there is no starting point. Also the pitch can be changing at different rates for any given pitch. i.e. letting it settle to level 2 and the changing to level 3 causes a slow change through 2.5 while going from 2 to 6 would cause a fast sweep through 2.5. This really can't be done with samples. I don't know what type of hardware those williams sound boards have, maybe they can emulate this type of thing. Kurt??? Solar Quest: ------------ This one adds another type of sound. Some of the outputs (8 I think) are used as a divisor for a high frequency clock. This allows tones to be generated by dividing by different values. Not hard, they even use all digital ICs for it, but it is yet another different type of sound generation. Tail Gunner: ------------ This has a silly anomaly. Here's how the Joystick works: The DAC in the MONITOR used for X-position also has it's output run to 2 separate comparators. The comparator outputs go to a 2-to-1 multiplexor that is controlled by one of the regular outputs normally used to control sound. The output of the comparator goes to one of the normal inputs on the motherboard. ACK! They use this configuration to do successive approximation under software control. It's actually a nice hack to read an analog joystick but it adds another "feature" to a universal sound board. So there you have it, 4 different things: 1) regular sounds that can be sampled 2) DAC-RC circuit-VCO type sounds 3) divider type tones 4) strange signal routing for Tail Gunner And then theres the other games..... The mystery game has a really different configuration from what I've heard from Steve. I've gone on long enough. Hey put me on the Williams list, I have a Joust board set laying around :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Fri May 12 08:26:56 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA02913; Fri, 12 May 95 08:26:56 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19755; Fri, 12 May 95 08:15:04 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA02849; Fri, 12 May 95 08:26:51 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19751; Fri, 12 May 95 08:14:57 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA05850; Fri, 12 May 95 08:15:01 -0500 Message-Id: <9505121315.AA05850@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Fri, 12 May 95 08:14:58 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: Hacking sounds boards for Cinematronics hardware References: <9505120112.AA04704@ns.Novell.COM> Organization: Mayo Foundation > Which soundboard? The original one that has been in most > willy games like joust and robotron, or the "new" board > that hasn't been around as long and is in those fun games > like trog/narc/mk/etc.. I was thinking the old one, mainly since they are relatively easy to find. Only down side I can think of is the inability to play more than one sound at a time. However, if you dedicate one board to background sounds, and one board for everything else, you may be OK. I'm sure the newer board gives you more flexiblity, but I've never seen one, and certainly have never played one of the games that uses it (at least not that I'd admit in public ;-) Are there any other candidates for flexibile digital sound boards that can be readily found? Ray From cnma Fri May 12 08:40:52 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA02998; Fri, 12 May 95 08:40:52 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19926; Fri, 12 May 95 08:29:00 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA02933; Fri, 12 May 95 08:40:44 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19922; Fri, 12 May 95 08:28:49 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA05871; Fri, 12 May 95 08:28:51 -0500 Message-Id: <9505121328.AA05871@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Fri, 12 May 95 08:28:50 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: Hacking sounds boards References: <199505120405.AAA11125@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation [lots of good data deleted] > So there you have it, 4 different things: So we're up to 6 games and 4 sound topologies (ouch) > 1) regular sounds that can be sampled Straight-forward, and takes care of the bulk of the sounds > 2) DAC-RC circuit-VCO type sounds Critical to get that droning, shifting analog feel that is so central to games like Rip Off and Star Castle. Might have to wire wrap this portion (~10-20 elements?) > 3) divider type tones Never seen or heard SQ so I'm note sure what's involved here. How daunting is the circuit? > 4) strange signal routing for Tail Gunner This should be easy to replicate, right? Stick an interface board between the stick and the cpu board... (unless I'm missing something) > And then theres the other games..... The mystery game > has a really different configuration from what I've heard > from Steve. These are the ones I worry about. Although a modular design is possible (so you can plug in new exceptions as they come up) a clean all in one solution would really be preferable. What other games are important to folks, and how does the sound circuit look like? > I've gone on long enough. Hey put me on the Williams > list, I have a Joust board set laying around :-) You and Kurt are now on the list, Paul (Steve was already on). Let me know if you guys want the list archive (200kb of stunning prose, with lots of neat ideas about how to make a switchable solution for all 7 early Williams games) Things on the list are pretty slow right now, especially since our PAL hacker just had a baby girl (he mumbled something about priorities ;-) Ray From cnma Mon May 15 12:35:21 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA09161; Mon, 15 May 95 12:35:21 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA16949; Mon, 15 May 95 12:23:10 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA09097; Mon, 15 May 95 12:35:14 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA16855; Mon, 15 May 95 13:23:06 EDT Message-Id: <9505151723.AA16855@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 15 May 95 12:22:00 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Virtual or actual get together Status: O G'day folks, Turns out many if not all of us live or have relatives in Chicago. Is it possible for us to all meet in Chicago for a weekend...perhaps during the holidays if we are all visiting relatives in Chicago then? An alternative would be to set up a "Cinematronics weekend" where everyone comes to Chicago and I put you up Saturday night. We'd be able to hack all weekend in probably one of the most conducive environments around....Rick's basement (with both my and his inventory to draw on)!! Doug Jefferys did this about two years ago, and he'll tell you that he was extremely productive!!!! Along other lines, I talked things over with Paul, and we are considering setting up a conference call with Larry Rosenthal...the guy who designed, debugged and made the Cinematronics hardware! Unfortunately, after looking into things a little bit, it looks like conference calls would cost a quarter per person per minute!! Quite expensive...but not expensive enough to deter me!!! Are any of you interested in this if you have to foot the bill for yourself? The call would probably last for less than an hour (= $15/per person in phone charges), since he probably won't give us any more of his time than that....I'm assuming he's willing to talk with us. Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Mon May 15 12:53:18 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA09301; Mon, 15 May 95 12:53:18 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA17233; Mon, 15 May 95 12:41:06 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA09236; Mon, 15 May 95 12:53:02 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from ns.Novell.COM by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from zeus.USG.Provo.Novell.COM by ns.Novell.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11043; Mon, 15 May 95 11:41:41 MDT Message-Id: <9505151741.AA11043@ns.Novell.COM> Received: from kmahan by zeus.USG.Provo.Novell.COM; Mon, 15 May 95 11:41 MDT Subject: Re: Virtual or actual get together To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:41:38 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2616 Status: O > > G'day folks, > > Turns out many if not all of us live or have relatives in Chicago. > Is it possible for us to all meet in Chicago for a weekend...perhaps > during the holidays if we are all visiting relatives in Chicago then? > An alternative would be to set up a "Cinematronics weekend" where > everyone comes to Chicago and I put you up Saturday night. We'd be > able to hack all weekend in probably one of the most conducive > environments around....Rick's basement (with both my and his inventory > to draw on)!! Doug Jefferys did this about two years ago, and he'll > tell you that he was extremely productive!!!! And we'll be working towards what goal? I'm not knocking the "get-together" aspect, but what work needs to get done? Paul and I are getting tons done over the internet. (well, paul is -- I've been building a deck :).. The other problem is that at least for me all my development utilities sit on a couple of machines in my study, supplemented via links to my office machines... Intel takes a dim view on proprietary hardware going on trips.. (and dialups don't work -- WAY too slow, and Novell doesn't allow outside connections to the internal nets..) Also all of my hardware development stuff is highly "non-portable". I know rick's got a lot of stuff, but its not always the same.. Is there something "specific" we need to work on? (beyond the current "in-flight" projects?) > Along other lines, I talked things over with Paul, and we are considering > setting up a conference call with Larry Rosenthal...the guy who designed, > debugged and made the Cinematronics hardware! Unfortunately, after looking > into things a little bit, it looks like conference calls would cost a > quarter per person per minute!! Quite expensive...but not expensive > enough to deter me!!! Are any of you interested in this if you have > to foot the bill for yourself? The call would probably last for less > than an hour (= $15/per person in phone charges), since he probably > won't give us any more of his time than that....I'm assuming he's > willing to talk with us. If someone puts a simple agenda together of what we want to cover, no problem. (ohmygod, I can't believe I just said that sentence.. Oh well).. I guess I'd like to give Larry at least SOME questions beforehand to give him a chance to come up with the answers rather than "I don't remember off the top of my head.." Paul can speak as to what the two of us need. (I'm not saying that I wouldn't mind talking with him, but to be truly useful I'd like a semi-directed conversation..) Is Larry on the net? Kurt From cnma Mon May 15 15:35:00 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA09713; Mon, 15 May 95 15:35:00 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19968; Mon, 15 May 95 15:22:45 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA09648; Mon, 15 May 95 15:34:45 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19955; Mon, 15 May 95 15:22:28 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA07737; Mon, 15 May 95 15:22:33 -0500 Message-Id: <9505152022.AA07737@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Mon, 15 May 95 15:22:31 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: Virtual or actual get together References: <9505151723.AA16855@ig1.att.att.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O > Turns out many if not all of us live or have relatives > in Chicago. Is it possible for us to all meet in Chicago > for a weekend...perhaps during the holidays if we are > all visiting relatives in Chicago then? An alternative > would be to set up a "Cinematronics weekend" where > everyone comes to Chicago and I put you up Saturday night. I'm only a 5 hour drive away, so I don't think I'll be the rate limiting factor. However, I agree that a lot of leg work needs to done before hand, so that we don't spend a lot of time sitting around > Along other lines, I talked things over with Paul, and > we are considering setting up a conference call with > Larry Rosenthal...the guy who designed, debugged and made > the Cinematronics hardware! Not sure if I could ask meaningful questions, but I would certainly wouldn't mind paying $15 to listen in. Having an agenda available for Larry before hand would be great, if he doesn't mind putting the time in getting ready for the phone call. Ray From ray@mayo.EDU Tue May 16 10:16:33 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA11726; Tue, 16 May 95 10:16:33 -0500 Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29574; Tue, 16 May 95 10:04:09 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA08103; Tue, 16 May 95 10:04:14 -0500 Message-Id: <9505161504.AA08103@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 16 May 95 10:04:13 -0500 To: ofoz@intgp1.att.com (Steven S Ozdemir +1 708 979 6742) Subject: Rev K mods Cc: ray@mayo.EDU Reply-To: ray@mayo.EDU References: <9505051533.AA26013@ig1.att.att.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O Hi Steve, Made time to compare the schematics last night. Here are the differences I see: Old K: pin 21 of EPROM (CS2) grounded (along with CS1 (pin 20) and VSS (pin 12)) Modifed K: Pin 21 tied to A12 (J10-5) (presumably trace is cut to isolate from ground) Old K: PG1 tied to J10-1 Prog. Page tied to J10-12 PG0 tied to J10-4 RESET tied to J10-18 Modified K: PG1 tied to J10-1, I10-9, and I10-10 Prog. Page tied to J10-12 and J10-9 PG0 tied to J10-8, I10-4, and I10-5 RESET tied to J10-18 and J10-10 I10-8 tied to J10-4 I10-6 tied to J10-11 So, it looks like there are 2 traces to cut (EPROM pin 21 to gnd, and J10-4 to PG0) and a lot of jumper wires to put in. Basically, looks like the PG1 signal is now used to select the odd or even bank, and the PG0 signal is used to set A12 for the extended addressing. Now the question is that if the board is strapped to accomadate the 2732s, what will happen if you plug a 2716 in? Presumably the state of A12 shouldn't matter and the game should work, right? Put another way, what happens if you plug Star Castle 2716 EPROMs into an Armor Attack cpu board? (Just curious if I'll have burn up 2732s for RO and SC while I'm working on the all in one 27128 hack) Ray From ofoz@intgp1.att.com Tue May 16 14:04:39 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA12233; Tue, 16 May 95 14:04:39 -0500 Received: from gw2.att.com (gw1.att.com) by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03974; Tue, 16 May 95 13:52:12 CDT Received: from ig1.att.att.com by ig2.att.att.com id AA23862; Tue, 16 May 95 14:53:02 EDT Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA27376; Tue, 16 May 95 14:52:25 EDT Message-Id: <9505161852.AA27376@ig1.att.att.com> From: ofoz@intgp1.att.com (Steven S Ozdemir +1 708 979 6742) Date: 16 May 95 13:52:00 -0500 To: Ray Ghanbari Original-From: intgp1!ofoz (Steven S Ozdemir +1 708 979 6742) Original-To: Ray Ghanbari Subject: Re: Rev K mods Status: O G'day Ray, At first glance, your description of the difference between 2716 mother boards and 2732 mother boards looks complete and accurate. The only part that I can't say I've seen is the J10-4 to PG0 cut, but it makes sense to me. I think you have a flaw in your reasoning when you suggested putting 2716s into a board that was meant (or modified) to use 2732s. When you put the 2716s into the mother board that uses 2732s, then pin 21 on the 2716 will fluctuate between ground and +5v as the extra wiring mods cause that pin to change state! I believe that pin 21 on a 2716 (CS2) MUST stay grounded for the 2716 to work....when I was working with 2564s I had trouble until I tied the CSs to either ground or +5v!! I think my assumption that the signal from the extra wiring mods fluctuating is fair, since there's no reason that the hardware would hold that signal steady if the code in the 2716s doesn't even realize the extra wiring mods exist. In any case, I think you already know what the solution to the problem is since you read my Cinematronics conversion document. After you've upgraded your Rev K board to run Armor Attack, you'll have to also burn some 2732s with double copies of Rip Off (and another set of 2732s with double copies of Star Castle if you want to plug those into the modified Rev K mother board somewhere down the line), so that no matter what signal is coming from the extra wiring mods, the high address line will still select either the first copy of the Rip Off program or the second copy of the Rip Off program....and since the programs are exactly the same, the Rev K mother board will find what it needs! Tell me how it goes! Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Thu May 18 09:33:21 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA17193; Thu, 18 May 95 09:33:21 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA00909; Thu, 18 May 95 09:21:10 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA17129; Thu, 18 May 95 09:33:15 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AB09491; Thu, 18 May 95 10:21:14 EDT Message-Id: <9505181421.AB09491@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 18 May 95 09:19:00 -0500 To: cnma Subject: using only two 2532s for RO and SC Status: O G'day folks, At Paul's suggestion, I concatenated T7 with U7 (LO with UO) and P7 with R7 (LE with UE) on 2532s and put the EPROMs back into the Star Castle motherboard (Rev H or Rev K unmodifed). It worked!! And just for the hell of it, I combined the two halves of the 2532 in reverse order, and that worked, too, though I had to switch from using the sockets I had just used to the two sockets that were empty. So summarizing, you can combine T7 with U7 and P7 with R7 where you can combine the halves any way you want just as long as you do both pairs of halves in the same order. Then you can just slap them in two sockets (like T7 and P7) and if this doesn't work then you know that you should use the other two sockets (U7 and R7) instead. One set of sockets or the other must work! Some advantages to this is that if you wanted to copy 2716s, you had to find some that were fast enough. (About 80% of 2716s will not work in a Cinematronics board.) However, 2732s and 2532s are always fast enough. Now instead of putting double copies of each 2716 into 2732s, you can combine the four 2716s into two 2532s saving yourself two EPROMs. Also, two new kits come to mind where either you use two 2564s (you can find two on Zaxxon) instead of four 2732s, OR you could figure out a way to use four 2532s where only one pair of sockets are active depending on a switch's setting. Finally, I tried the exact same things using 2732s instead of 2532s, and no mattter what order I put the halves in or what pairs of sockets I used, I couldn't get anything to work. I shouldn't be surprised since Paul didn't say to use 2732s, but I wanted to give it a try. By the way, I remembered that the Warrior data I have from Al only works with two 2532s on a Vectorbeam board....doesn't this sound alot like what I just did with Star Castle data on a Cinematronics board? So next time I try out things, I'm going to split the Warrior data up among some 2716s and plug it into a Star Castle motherboard! If this works, then this will be the first time we've got pre-Rip Off data to work in a post-Rip Off motherboard (though I have to say that Ray is considering trying to get Space Wars going on his Armor Attack motherboard). So here's my paragraph on status. Did you pick up that equipment that I left at my grandparents, Paul? I'm still trying to throw together those questions I'm suppose to get to you, Paul. Ray, have you had any success with upgrading your SC Rev K motherboard to run Armor Attack? Lastly, Kurt, I got all the sound boards up and going, so] now I only have to clean up some of the messier/static sounds. Did I cover everybody?? Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Tue May 23 09:48:14 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA26725; Tue, 23 May 95 09:48:14 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA26284; Tue, 23 May 95 09:34:17 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA26660; Tue, 23 May 95 09:48:09 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA26279; Tue, 23 May 95 09:34:10 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA00381; Tue, 23 May 95 09:34:16 -0500 Message-Id: <9505231434.AA00381@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Tue, 23 May 95 09:34:14 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: using only two 2532s for RO and SC References: <9505181421.AB09491@ig1.att.att.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O > So summarizing, you can combine T7 with U7 and P7 with > R7 where you can combine the halves any way you want just > as long as you do both pairs of halves in the same order. > Then you can just slap them in two sockets (like T7 and > P7) and if this doesn't work then you know that you should > use the other two sockets (U7 and R7) instead. One set > of sockets or the other must work! Neat! Good to know... Steve, can you document what order corresponds to which socket pair? > By the way, I remembered that the Warrior data I have > from Al only works with two 2532s on a Vectorbeam > board....doesn't this sound alot like what I just did > with Star Castle data on a Cinematronics board? So next > time I try out things, I'm going to split the Warrior > data up among some 2716s and plug it into a Star Castle > motherboard! Well, if splitting them will work, then plugging the 2532s in the rev K board should work as well, right? (the proof is in your description of RO and SC above) Save yourself some time and try the 2532s directly > Ray, have you had any success with upgrading your SC Rev > K motherboard to run Armor Attack? Well, I decided not to do anything nasty like cut traces. I may be old fashioned, but I prefer to keep all board hacks reversible (these are collectables after all) What I've done so far is remove the 74LS107 at J10 and socket it. I am current making a daughter board that implements the modified rev K PG0 and PG1 logic (including a 74LS00 as a sub for I10) in order to get the A12 selection signal. That way, when you want to use the board as a modified rev K board, you remove the IC at J10, and plug in the daughter board. When you want to go back to the original, you remove the daughter board and plug in a 74ls107 For the EPROMs, I decided not to cut traces (the A12 pin is grounded, normally) Instead, I plan on using 4 sockets and bending up the appropriate pin (A12), and wiring those to the daughter board directly. Again, easy to pick and choose between using 2716s (or now 2532s) and 2732s. The discussion about the 2532s got me thinking, though. If I have a daughter board that is generating the A12 signal, and the appropriate CE signals for the odd/even banks, why not combine all the EPROMs onto a single 27128? CE can always be high, and the old CE signal can be used to select the appropriate bank. If you want to extend it further, in the 4 game hack, put all the images on a single 27512, with all the selection lines coming from the daughter board. Certainly a lot cleaner than having 4 wire wrap sockets crammed into the original sockets. All it would take is one 2716->27512 adapter in U7, with 4 wires coming from the daughter board, with a 2 position dip switch on the daughterboard for game select. Trick would be to get the ordering right on the EPROM, but that should be relatively straight forward. Comments before I spend a lot of time on this? (Unfortunately, I have to sneak in and use the EPROM burner at work, so turn around times are a little slower than I like, esp. when experimenting with different orderings within a large EPROM) Ray From cnma Tue May 23 12:52:35 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA27434; Tue, 23 May 95 12:52:35 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29753; Tue, 23 May 95 12:38:34 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA27371; Tue, 23 May 95 12:52:33 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id NAA06839; Tue, 23 May 1995 13:38:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199505231738.NAA06839@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: using only two 2532s for RO and SC To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 13:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Cc: cnma X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2496 Status: O > > time I try out things, I'm going to split the Warrior > > data up among some 2716s and plug it into a Star Castle > > motherboard! > > Well, if splitting them will work, then plugging the 2532s in the rev K board > should work as well, right? (the proof is in your description of RO and SC > above) Save yourself some time and try the 2532s directly You are correct. If splitting them would work then using the 2532 would too. > The discussion about the 2532s got me thinking, though. If I have a daughter > board that is generating the A12 signal, and the appropriate CE signals for > the odd/even banks, why not combine all the EPROMs onto a single 27128? CE > can always be high, and the old CE signal can be used to select the > appropriate bank. If you want to extend it further, in the 4 game hack, put > all the images on a single 27512, with all the selection lines coming from the > daughter board. Certainly a lot cleaner than having 4 wire wrap sockets > crammed into the original sockets. All it would take is one 2716->27512 > adapter in U7, with 4 wires coming from the daughter board, with a 2 position [..] > Comments before I spend a lot of time on this? (Unfortunately, I have to You can't put them all into 1 chip.You can put them all in 2. The board selects 1 odd and 1 even ROM at the same time (or nearly same). It latches the data from one (odd I think) for later use. It's like a 16 bit data bus to make up for the SLOW EPROMs of the time. Keep in mind that it runs at 1.66 MIPS (or higher?) so it needs to grab data fast. I suppose you could use 1 large ROM but you'd have to figure out how the sequencer works AND run A0 up to the EPROM, since it is normally used to select even or odd addresses. The sequencer has it's own microcode prom that not even I have looked at much. This is different from the 4 small microcode ROMs that produce all the processor control signals which I do understand in great detail (yes steve I'll get writing). Anyway you'd have to understand how the sequencer works and be able to reprogram it for only 1 rom... More work than just using 2 eproms. They do make 16bit-wide eproms. BTW it really is 1.66 MIPS. People go nuts when you tell 'em its all TTL. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Tue May 23 14:31:47 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA27722; Tue, 23 May 95 14:31:47 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02051; Tue, 23 May 95 14:17:45 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA27657; Tue, 23 May 95 14:31:40 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from ig1.att.att.com by ig2.att.att.com id AA19990; Tue, 23 May 95 15:18:26 EDT Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA01564; Tue, 23 May 95 15:17:45 EDT Message-Id: <9505231917.AA01564@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 23 May 95 14:17:00 -0500 To: cnma@ig2.att.att.com (Cinematronics Hacker List) Original-To: att!ig2.att.att.com!nero.mayo.edu!cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Subject: Re: using only two 2532s for RO and SC Status: O G'day folks, Paul explained why you have to use two EPROMs as a minimum, and I agree completely. I'll direct you, Ray, to page 4 of the schematics. Look at the chips that the EPROMs feed. You'll see how the the data at even addresses is allowed through, but the data at odd addresses is latched up. (Note that I could have it in reverse...the data at odd addresses is let through, but the data at even addresses is latched up.) You're going to have to change the architecture quite a bit to handle this. Paul's suggestion of using a 16 bit wide EPROM is probably the most practical way to quickly overcome the limitations of this architecture BUT I wouldn't suggest it since very few people will be able to duplicate your efforts!! Think how hard it is for you just to burn regular EPROMs like 2732s, etc. Imagine how much harder it would be to buy the 16 bit wide EPROM and then find facilities to burn it!!!! Stick to two EPROMs. As to documenting the 2716->2532 information, first I have to give some background. UE=U7, LE=T7, UO=R7 and LO=P7, where [P-U]7 is the socket location on the Cinematronics motherboard and the [UL][EO] stands for one quarter of the whole Cinematronics program. If you combine the lower and upper quarters where lower goes at 0000H of the 2532 EPROM, then you put E at T7 and O at P7. If you reverse how you combine the lower and upper quarters where upper goes at 0000H of each 2532H, then you put E at U7 and O at R7. Interestingly enough, Space Wars puts it's masked ROMs at U7 and R7. What do you think Paul? Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com ps - Sorry I haven't gotten the questions to you yet, Paul. Did you pick up the equipment from my grandparents? pps - Did I mention that I got my EPROM burner working on my PC this weekend? Rick got me an EPROM eraser, so I'm all set to go!!! Not a bad set up given that I paid a total of $50 for all the parts...too bad I had to wait 2 years before all the parts came together. It's always a trade off, spending more money or more time. From cnma Wed May 24 08:59:45 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA29883; Wed, 24 May 95 08:59:45 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA12526; Wed, 24 May 95 08:45:16 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA29818; Wed, 24 May 95 08:59:29 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from augustus.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA12519; Wed, 24 May 95 08:44:58 CDT Received: by augustus.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA00937; Wed, 24 May 95 08:45:04 -0500 Message-Id: <9505241345.AA00937@augustus.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Wed, 24 May 95 08:44:59 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: using only two 2532s for RO and SC References: <199505231738.NAA06839@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O > You can't put them all into 1 chip.You can put them > all in 2. The board selects 1 odd and 1 even ROM at > the same time (or nearly same). It latches the data from > one (odd I think) for later use. It's like a 16 bit data > bus to make up for the SLOW EPROMs of the time. Keep in > mind that it runs at 1.66 MIPS (or higher?) so it needs > to grab data fast. Thanks for the feedback Paul and Steve. Lots of good data. It seems to make the most sense to go with 2 27256s for the 4 game hack. I'll try to burn up the EPROMs and fab the 2532->27256 adapters next week, and let people know how it turns out. > BTW it really is 1.66 MIPS. People go nuts when you tell > 'em its all TTL. This is plain amazing for a ~1974 design, BTW (if I recall, that's when the Cray 1 came out). I can see why it is hard to find 2716s that can keep up (my RipOff board came with 4 2516s which had been hacked to be pin compatible with 2716s...guess that dude didn't know about the 2532 trick) Of course, those aren't the most sophisticated MIPs in the world, but it's still pretty damn cool... Ray From cnma Wed Jun 7 10:35:20 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA03380; Wed, 7 Jun 95 10:35:20 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA01403; Wed, 7 Jun 95 10:35:19 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA03316; Wed, 7 Jun 95 10:35:15 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA03678; Wed, 7 Jun 95 11:35:07 EDT Message-Id: <9506071535.AA03678@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 7 Jun 95 10:32:00 -0500 To: cnma Subject: 2532s and standard Rip Off or Star Castle motherboards! Status: O X-Status: G'day folks, Well, work has been hell for the last three weeks.....an average developer produces between 2000 and 3000 lines of uncommented, non-whitespace code in a year (mainly because of some incredibly stringent methodology that precludes hacking of any type), and I just produced 2500 uncommented, non- whitespace lines of code in this three week period! I asked my boss if I could take the rest of the year, since I've filled my quota! 8^) Anyways, I was over at Rick's last night and I decided to burn some EPROMs with some of Bill Esquivel's Barrier/Speed Freak data! I failed to split up Warrior data across some 2716s, but given the success of Paul's idea of using 2532s in a RO/SC motherboard, I slapped some 2532s with Warrior data into the RO/SC motherboard and it worked!!!! (I can't tell you how frustrating it was to know that I was that close to solving my Warrior problem back about two years ago....if I'd just pulled the 2532s from the Vectorbeam board and put them in a RO/SC motherboard, then I would have avoided a LONG search!) Anyways, so the myth that I started about Vectorbeam boards being more flexible/valuable has been debunked, and Al Kossow was correct that his data would work on standard RO/SC mother boards....you just have to try them in 2532s! I got Barrier and Warrior data going, and when I tried Speed Freak the game would undergo constant reset. However, it did display the beginning picture to Speed Freak, so the breakers didn't pop! I thought about it while I was driving home, and I'm realized that the JMI strap wasn't on Speed Freak and maybe it's inadvertently jumping back to the beginning of the code? So I'll disable the JMI strap tonight and see if I can put both Space Wars and Speed Freak on a RO/SC motherboard!! So in summary, so far on a Rev K Cinematronics motherboard, we have Solar Quest, Armor Attack, Star Castle, Rip Off, Warrior, Barrier and probably both Space Wars, Star Hawk and Speed Freak! We don't have data for War of the Worlds and Sundance. Oops, I forgot that we also have Rocket Racer going on a Rev K Cinematronics motherobard! The only game that I haven't mentioned are Tail Gunner and Boxing Bugs. So I can see that immediately we can put at least 11 games into a grand conversion and we might be able to crank that up to 14 games if we can find Sundance data, figure out how to integrate Tail Gunner and Boxing Bugs. I'd say based on recent developments that I may stop the Cinematronics on a chip project, since if we can use RO/SC motherboards there's really no reason to do the project. RO/SC motherboards come a dime a dozen! (Also I've heard that someone has had some success at repairing them.) I think starting the universal sound board project is a much better use of our time. What do you all think? Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com ps - Kinda funny that the Williams project is coming up with a universal cabinet about the same time that a Cinematronic universal cabinet might finally be possible! .....but I'll never give up my Warrior cabinet anyways!! I don't care how impressive the Cinematronics universal cabinet might be!!! From cnma Thu Jun 8 13:41:18 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA06867; Thu, 8 Jun 95 13:41:18 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA23543; Thu, 8 Jun 95 13:41:17 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA06804; Thu, 8 Jun 95 13:41:14 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA26515; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:40:55 EDT Message-Id: <9506081840.AA26515@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 8 Jun 95 13:40:00 -0500 To: cnma Subject: More results! Status: O X-Status: G'day folks, I think I figured out why Paul was getting resets when running Space Wars on the emulator! I was having the exact same problem last night!! I got Star Hawk and Space Wars running on 2532s on a SC motherboard, but the Space Wars would reset after about 10 seconds of play. It'd just restart from the beginnning of the program, sorta like what Paul was seeing with the sun in Space Wars being redrawn again and again. Well, the solution is to open all the dipswitches! By openning a dipswitch, you disconnect ground from the dipswitch inputs to the motherboard (F2 off the top of my head?) and the dipswitch inputs to the motherboard all get pulled up. Then Space Wars will run!! Tell me if this lets you run Space Wars on the emulator, Paul!!! I didn't get anywhere with Speed Freak. I disconnected the JMI jumper and I also flipped all the dipswitches to open. It still was in constant rest, but displaying a picture so no breakers popped. Lastly, I think I've figured out a universal way around the problem of differing control panel inputs!!!!! If we use three 1 meg EPROMs, we can connect the first 16 inputs to a universal control panel that can handle all Cinematronics/Vectorbeam games (except Tail Gunner and Speed Freak since both use pots). Connect the last 4 inputs of the EPROM to a select between a potential 16 games....I can only think of 12 games at the moment beyond Tail Gunner and Speed Freak. Then each of the three EPROMs will output 8 bits, giving you a total of 24 bits to be fed from the EPROM into the 20 input pins on the mother board!! The cost is under $20 and wiring should be minimal!! All we need to do is put together a memory map using the various manuals ....though at the moment we don't have a manual for War of the Worlds, Rocket Racer or Sundance. Sorry for all this delay, Kurt. Fixing sound boards will quickly rise to the top of my list now that I've proven that all of these games can run on the SC platform. I think it's time to add another 20 position, 4 pole switch to my Rip Off cabinet to handle another four games in addition to RO, SC, AA and SQ!!!!! Besides, I want to have an excuse to implement this EPROM solution to my contorl panel! But all of this will wait until I get your boards out Kurt. Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Thu Jun 8 14:40:45 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA07286; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:40:45 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA24738; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:40:44 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA07205; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:40:28 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from caligula.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA24727; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:40:12 CDT Received: by caligula.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA00476; Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:41:20 -0500 Message-Id: <9506081941.AA00476@caligula.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 14:41:19 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: More results! References: <9506081840.AA26515@ig1.att.att.com> Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O X-Status: Tremendous work Steve! I'm in the midst of reworking your 4-in-1 conversion doc to take advantage of the 2532 experiments (2 27256s instead of 4 28128s), and getting the AA addressing working with a standard rev K SC board. Sounds like the 27256s need to become 27010s (16 games instead of 4) That means a larger package, but otherwise things ought to work. We may need to take a page of the Wlms conversion project and use a PAL to make specific hardware mods for specific games (like the dip switches for Space War, and the inverted dip switch in Rip Off) If I were to prioritize, I would say: 1 Get the remaining non-pot input games working w/ 2532s 2 Wire up the control panel EPROM hack (nice work, which will make the Wlms cabinet all that much easier to do) 3 Figure out a way to get Tail Gunner input integrated into the mess 4 Design a PAL that implements the hardware level hacks to accomadate the dip switches, Tail Gunner hack, etc. An an aside, Kurt has been off the list for the last couple days because of the bouncing we're getting from his address. I'll put him back on when he's back, but until then, I recommend voice or direct e-mail (so bounces aren't propagated to the list) if you need to get in touch with him Ray From cnma Thu Jun 8 16:06:52 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA07700; Thu, 8 Jun 95 16:06:52 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA26557; Thu, 8 Jun 95 16:06:50 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA07636; Thu, 8 Jun 95 16:06:48 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id RAA08173; Thu, 8 Jun 1995 17:06:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199506082106.RAA08173@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: More results! To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 17:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: cnma X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1303 Status: O X-Status: > Tremendous work Steve! I'm in the midst of reworking your 4-in-1 conversion Yes, it's cool how he managed to interpret what I said on the wlms list a few days ago about using EPROMs for switch mapping. [...] > We may need to take a page of the Wlms conversion project and use a PAL to > make specific hardware mods for specific games (like the dip switches for > Space War, and the inverted dip switch in Rip Off) If I were to prioritize, I You can just as easily force an input high or low for a specific game using the eproms. This would force a specific set of options for each game unless you used a bigger eprom to map some extra inputs from some option switches. Another note: The attract mode on Speed Freak doesn't do a damn thing. It just sits there cruising along a straight road. Unless you actually SEE some effect when it is "resetting" then it's just fine. BTW Steve, I still need the cable from mother board to monitor in order to do anything. I managed to get all the molex stuff at radio-wack but still need to make some cables :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Fri Jun 9 12:06:39 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA10031; Fri, 9 Jun 95 12:06:39 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08999; Fri, 9 Jun 95 12:06:38 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA09966; Fri, 9 Jun 95 12:06:25 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw1.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from ig1.att.att.com by ig2.att.att.com id AA25467; Fri, 9 Jun 95 13:06:59 EDT Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA20692; Fri, 9 Jun 95 13:06:09 EDT Message-Id: <9506091706.AA20692@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 9 Jun 95 12:04:00 -0500 To: cnma@ig2.att.att.com (Cinematronics Hacker List) Original-To: att!ig2.att.att.com!nero.mayo.edu!cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Subject: a Status: O X-Status: G'day folks, Ray, I think you don't need to do anything special for the dipswitch settings. If you use the control panel EPROM hack, you can make the output as wide as you want by just adding more EPROMs. I had suggested using three 1 meg EPROMs four translation....if we use four 1 meg EPROMs, then we can use the extra 8 bits from the last EPROM to run the dipswitches. SO, if you are planning to use two 1 meg EPROMs to hold up to 16 Cinematronics games and another four 1 meg EPROMs to handle all translation for the control panel and dipswitches, then that brings the total hardware cost up to six 1 meg EPROMs and a couple of toggle switches (see my last email to the williams maili list) to replace the rotary switch. Of course, I'm assuming a universal sound board, or else a rotary switch (and a big one at that) is necessary to transfer power/etc to the correct sound board. I like the fact that the Cinematronics conversion is getting simpler!! Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com ps - Paul, I'll try to drop a monitor to motherboard cable in the mail on Monday. I'm going to Washington DC this weekend to pick up some games. Please send me your mail address again. From cnma Sun Jun 11 21:57:44 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA14556; Sun, 11 Jun 95 21:57:44 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA25624; Sun, 11 Jun 95 21:57:43 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA14491; Sun, 11 Jun 95 21:57:40 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id WAA26468; Sun, 11 Jun 1995 22:57:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199506120257.WAA26468@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Software Game Select To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 22:57:33 -0500 (EDT) Cc: cnma@ig2.att.att.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3328 Status: O X-Status: Hey guys, I've decided to take on the challenge of writing a menu program for the Cinematronics multi-game thing. I've already got some of the code written on paper and will probably hand assemble it since it's short and no Cinematronics assembler exists (YET!) Here's how I see it working from a hardware perspective, though this is subject to change: I assume all the games will be 16K. The smaller ones will have multiple copies of the data to fill in the blank ROM space. 16 such games would fit in 256K or 2 1-Meg Eproms which is nice because we have a "high" and "low" socket to fill. Since there aren't 16 games available it's no problem to make game 0 a menu program, but how to switch? 2 4-bit latches will be used for game select. L1 will hold the current game number with its 4 outputs going to the upper address lines of the ROMs as well as a connector to send them to the universal control pannel y'all wanna make. L2 will hold the game number as selected from the menu until it's time to start that game at which time it will get loaded into L1. Here's the magic. L2 will be cleared on reset (via the reset line). L1 will be loaded from L2 every time location $000 is read from the current games ROM (which happens immediately after a reset). On power up reset will clear L2 and since the first read is from $000 L1 will load and the menu program will run. Once the menu program has loaded L2 with the game number and you press the "go" button it will jump to address $000 which will load L1 and is also the entry point for all games! Notice that L1 MUST load asynchronously and quickly for this to work. This leaves only one problem: how to load L2. Suppose the menu program fits in 2K (which it will) this means address line A11 will stay zero while running the menu. We can load L2 whenever game zero is selected AND A11 goes high with data taken from A7-A10. This way the menu program can jump to $800 + 256*Game (or is it 128...) to load L2. Each of these addresses would simply jump back to the menu program. Remember this only takes place when game0 is running (the menu). The advantage of all this is that it can be done with 4-5 TTL chips and 2 Eproms on a daughter card plugged into 2 rom sockets with only *1* extra wire running to the board to catch the reset signal! As I said before, we'd put a connector on the daughter board to send the game selects over to the universal control pannel. One potential problem: There is a reset instruction in the processor. If any game executed this it would clear L2 and go back to the menu. I think we can work around this if need be, but otherwise I think the idea is sound. Excuse me if any of my powers of 2 are off in the description, I just wanted to throw the idea out and let you know I've started writing a menu program. Any comments and discussion about the above idea are encouraged. Now I just need to get that test setup going... Steve verified for me that just because a program runs right on the emulator doesn't mean it works on the real thing, but this time I'm not cutting corners with code :-) ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Tue Jun 13 09:10:24 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA18367; Tue, 13 Jun 95 09:10:24 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA17559; Tue, 13 Jun 95 09:10:22 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA18302; Tue, 13 Jun 95 09:10:20 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id KAA22318; Tue, 13 Jun 1995 10:10:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199506131410.KAA22318@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Software Game Select To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 10:10:14 -0500 (EDT) Cc: cnma, cnma@ig2.att.att.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 906 Status: O X-Status: Hey, I was being stupid before. I over complicated loading the L2 latch with the game number. If the program simply reads from data from location $800 + 2*Game. The high order bit is select and the low bits are the game number. The problem is that there's no way to add a memory mapped device to the Cinematronics processor, so it needs to be done by monitoring the bus for certain behavior. Another problem is that there is no way to put data on the data bus because it's only connected to ROMs which are read only. I forgot that you can use an accumulator as an address to read data from the roms in my earier message. Somebody say something...Anything... :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Mon Jun 19 10:39:25 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA01848; Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:25 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08428; Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:24 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA01783; Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:07 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from caligula.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA08415; Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:02 CDT Received: by caligula.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA06961; Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:02 -0500 Message-Id: <9506191539.AA06961@caligula.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:39:01 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Off the net Organization: Mayo Foundation Status: O X-Status: In case people didn't catch Rick's posting. Hope all is well Steve, and sorry to hear you had such a harrowing experience... Ray Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting Subject: Re: Recent aquisitions Summary: Ozdemir Disaster! Keywords: aquisitions Organization: AT&T Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:47:52 GMT [...] > So I talked with Steve O. who went out there to get the games, >and he bought the Bandito and I got the other 3. I ended up paying >the $100 a piece, but on the other hand he had them in storage for >over 2 months for us so it wasn't too bad (we just got them this >weekend, and Steve O. road tripped there and back -- talk about >dedication to getting the Bandito! -- I sat on my butt at home...) > > So here's how things stand: .... deleted part about John's games.... John had a happy ending to this story but Steve Ozdemir definitely did not! Shorty after successfully dropping off John's machines he was rear-ended by a speeding Blazer and was very lucky not to be injured, unlike the 2 adult occupants of the Blazer who were taken away unconscience after being thrown from their vehicle (i.e. idiots with no seat belts on besides driving like lunatics!). The Bandido was reduced to kindling, the trailer was totalled, $3500 in damage to his Steve's wife's car but Steve was thankfully uninjured (just pissed as hell!) So no Bandido for Steve and no more long road trips if his wife has anything to say about it... Rick From cnma Fri Jul 7 09:53:01 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA03742; Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:53:01 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29524; Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:53:00 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA03677; Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:52:53 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw2.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from ig1.att.att.com by ig2.att.att.com id AA12719; Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:53:35 EDT Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA28042; Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:52:10 EDT Message-Id: <9507071452.AA28042@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 7 Jul 95 09:48:00 -0500 To: cnma@ig2.att.att.com (Cinematronics Hacker List) Original-To: att!ig2.att.att.com!nero.mayo.edu!cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Subject: Re: Off the net Status: O X-Status: G'day folks, Coming back on-line shortly! Between the accident, the PHS project at work and a sprained ankles (yes, I'm on cruches...June just hasn't been very good to me!), I've been ignoring both my email and RGP. By the way, I though Paul's software selection menu was fantactic!!! I have a few suggestions for simplifying the design and providing added flexibility!!!! Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Fri Jul 21 11:05:12 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA03868; Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:05:12 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA26574; Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:05:11 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA03801; Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:05:05 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from claudius (claudius.mayo.edu) by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA26566; Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:05:00 CDT Received: by claudius (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA01161; Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:05:01 -0500 Message-Id: <9507211605.AA01161@claudius> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 11:04:59 -0500 To: cnma Subject: AA question Organization: Mayo Foundation Folks, I'm trying to get a AA boardset working. The game comes up fine, sound works, and you can play, except that all the characters on the screen have the line segments slightly offset from each other, so that the shapes are recognizable but a mess. Any suggestions for which part of the board to look at? Once I get this boardst working, time to move on to another that doesn't have the decency to even come up ;-) Thanks Ray From cnma Fri Jul 21 13:48:06 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA04478; Fri, 21 Jul 95 13:48:06 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29604; Fri, 21 Jul 95 13:48:05 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA04414; Fri, 21 Jul 95 13:48:00 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id OAA18741 for cnma@nero.mayo.edu; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:47:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199507211847.OAA18741@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: AA question To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:47:49 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1653 > Folks, I'm trying to get a AA boardset working. The game comes up fine, > sound works, and you can play, except that all the characters on the screen > have the line segments slightly offset from each other, so that the shapes are > recognizable but a mess. Any suggestions for which part of the board to look > at? Once I get this boardst working, time to move on to another that doesn't > have the decency to even come up ;-) Ray, look at the schematic page that has the Line Counter on it. This page also has the signals 'bright' and 'drawing'. You'll see that there is an RC circuit and a transistor near the middle of the schematic, these are used to prevent the beam from turning on immediately when a line starts. Perhaps the problem lies there. Other possibilities are that the line counter is somehow messed up as this controls when the beam shuts off at the other end (it never makes it as far as the D/As would have you think). Or the RC stuff in the monitor cound be hurting, but that would affect ALL your games. It's hard to say without more info. Do the lines point the right direction? are they too long? too short? bent?!?! Running the Star Castle test pattern on it might be helpfull, that way you could (or I could) tell which end of the line is broke. BTW we will probably move the 'puter over to the new house this weekend and I can get back to that CineMenu thing... Later, -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Sat Jul 22 18:29:14 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA06645; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:29:14 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA10223; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:29:13 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA06580; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:28:41 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from claudius (claudius.mayo.edu) by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA10217; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:28:37 CDT Received: by claudius (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA01727; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:28:31 -0500 Message-Id: <9507222328.AA01727@claudius> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:28:30 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: AA question References: <199507211847.OAA18741@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation > Ray, look at the schematic page that has the Line Counter > on it. This page also has the signals 'bright' and > 'drawing'. You'll see that there is an RC circuit and a > transistor near the middle of the schematic, these are > used to prevent the beam from turning on immediately when > a line starts. Perhaps the problem lies there. Other > possibilities are that the line counter is somehow messed > up as this controls when the beam shuts off at the other > end (it never makes it as far as the D/As would have you > think). Or the RC stuff in the monitor cound be hurting, > but that would affect ALL your games. It's hard to say > without more info. Do the lines point the right direction? > are they too long? too short? bent?!?! Running the Star > Castle test pattern on it might be helpfull, that way > you could (or I could) tell which end of the line is > broke. Thanks for the info, Paul. I know the monitor is OK since it works fine with my rev K SC/RO board (or at least it did while my rev K board worked..sparks flew last night and it is now officially down :-( ) Line segments all see the right length, but the vertices just don't meet. For example, a 3 would look like this: ----- | | | ------ | | | ------ The offsets are quite consistent per graphic/character, but they aren't preserved under rotation. That makes me think that there is a countrer problem in the XY portion of the circuit. I will check it out. Still, AA is fairly fun to play, even though you can't see the detail in the graphics, and the fact that I don't have the town overlay and hence have no idea where the walls are ;-) Ray From cnma Sat Jul 22 18:55:56 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA06731; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:56 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA10388; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:55 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA06666; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:45 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from claudius (claudius.mayo.edu) by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA10384; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:42 CDT Received: by claudius (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA01736; Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:41 -0500 Message-Id: <9507222355.AA01736@claudius> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:55:39 -0500 To: cnma Subject: control panel matrix Organization: Mayo Foundation Folks, it may be time to start designing an all in one control panel, with associated wiring matrix to get burned into ROMS as was discussed earlier on on the list. Attached is what I have put together for the Williams multicabinet project a couple months ago. Probably we'll want to do something similar for cinematronics hardware (for reference, first column in connector on interface card, and other columns are game specific connections) I have connector pin data for SC, RO, SQ, and AA from my games and from the original cnma conversion document. What about the other games that can be run on the same hardware (space war, warrior, barrier, speed freak, rocket racer, tail gunner)? What were the original control panel layouts? Post what data you have, and I'll compile into a matrix similar to what we have for Williams games (we'll have to do fiddling for Speed Freak and Tail Gunner pots, but we can certainly design the control panel with appropriate space, and map the rest of the buttons in anticipation of figuring the ADC problem out) Ray Aln Ar Strgte Jst Rbtrn Bubls Dfndr Splt Snstr 3J2 1 Mv U Fr L Mv U Fr L 2 Y U P2 L 3 Y D P2 R U/D Sw 4 Y L P2 Fl 5 Y R U/D Dir 6 Bomb 7 Y pl 8 Y fl 9 Fr 10 Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd 3J3 1 B U Fr P1 L Mv U Mv U Fr Mv U 2 B D Thrst P1 R Mv D Mv D Thrst Mv D 3 B L Sm Bmb P1 Fl Mv L Mv L Sm Bmb Mv L 4 B R Hyp Mv R Mv R Hyp Mv R 5 1P 2P 2P 1P 2P 2P 2P 6 2P 1P 1P 2P 1P 1P 1P L/R Sw 7 B pl Revrs Fr U Revrs Fr U 8 B fl Mv D Fr D Mv D Fr D L/R Dir 9 Invsio Fr R Fr R 10 Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd Gnd For completeness, here is one proposed layout for the Wlms cabinet (with reverse mapping of buttons to function). Currently, we are gravitating to a 2 control panel approach, so I only include this here for reference (ie, don't start building your williams universal cabinet control panel quite yet!) Needs: 2 8 way joysticks (at least one microswitch) 9 buttons 2 start buttons _________________________________________________________________ | St 1 St 2 | | O O | | @ @ | | | | | | (|) O O (|) | | J1 O O O B6 B7 J2 O O | | B1 B2 O B5 B8 B9 | | B4 | | O | | B3 | ________________________________________________________________| Aln Ar Strgte Jst Rbtrn Bubls Dfndr Splt Snstr J1U Y U Mv U Mv U Mv U Mv U (J2 for hack) J1D Y D Mv D Mv D Mv D Mv D J1L Y L P2 L Mv L Mv L J1R Y R P2 R Mv R Mv R J2U B U Fr U Mv U Fr U J2D B D Fr D Mv D Fr D J3L B L P1 L Fr L Mv L Fr L J3R B R P1 R Fr R Mv R Fr R B1 Y Fl Rvrs P2 Flp Rvrs B2 Y Pl B3 Hyp B4 Invsio Hyp B5 Sm Bmb Sm Bmb B6 Thrst Thrst B7 Fr Fr B8 B Fl P1 Fl Bmb B9 B Pl Fr (+ 2 start buttons) From cnma Tue Jul 25 17:05:20 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA14617; Tue, 25 Jul 95 17:05:20 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA16285; Tue, 25 Jul 95 17:05:18 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA14552; Tue, 25 Jul 95 17:05:12 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw2.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA05138; Tue, 25 Jul 95 15:56:20 EDT Message-Id: <9507251956.AA05138@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 25 Jul 95 14:51:00 -0500 To: cnma@ig1.att.att.com (Cinematronics Hacker List) Original-To: att!ig1.att.att.com!nero.mayo.edu!cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Subject: Re: control panel matrix G'day folks, Well, I'd say I'm officially back online after that long hiatus where I was all but dead to the arcade video game hobby. Ray had a question about how to get vectors on AA to meet at a point. Paul's answer sound right to me, but I thought I should also add that on Atari games there is something called XBIP and YBIP that are pots that you can adjust to get vectors to meet at a point. I believe that the BIPs are on the actual game board and also don't have anything to do with the monitor. If the pot is acting as a resistor in an RC circuit like Paul mentioned, then I'd say that something went wrong in your RC circuit...replace the whole thing. Along similar lines, Paul, for that Vectorbeam board that I have where all I get are just points of light (ie. no line length) in the shap of the object, do you think that this RC circuit could also be suspect? Remember that this Vectorbeam board has that other strange symptom that the board seems to be in single frame mode...or in other words, the system only goes forward a frame if you push a button! Lastly, as to making the master control panel for Cinematronics, I think we need to know what games will be included beyond the standard four. To start the list, I can include Warrior, Barrier, Star Hawk, Speed Freak and Rocket Racer. I can't say whether we should include Tail Gunner and Speed Freak with their pots. Also, we probably should exclude Boxing Bugs, since it used a whirligig. We could consider including War of the Worlds and Sundance once we learn more about their control panels....I can guarantee that Sundance's control panel is just a keypad. If we take my suggestion, then we'd be trying to put 11 games into the universal control panel. I'd suggest two joysticks, 10 buttons and a 3 by 4 keypad to be used by Space Wars, Sundance and Barrier. If we didn't hook up two keys on the keypad, then we'd have 8 + 10 + 10 control panel inputs plus another 4 game select inputs for a grand total of 32 inputs going to 20 outputs. Actually, I don't think this is going to work, since 32 inputs implies 4 gigabytes, doesn't it? Damn...what'd I do wrong? Oh, yes, before we probably just had the joysticks and the buttons for 18 control panel inputs and 4 game select inputs for a total of 22 inputs implying only 4 megabytes. What are we going to do about the keypads? Should we just drop Space Wars, Barrier and Sundance?? We'd only have 8 games, leaving us a spare bit to use in translation since we'd only need 3 select lines! But the resulting control panel wouldn't be as useful... By the way Paul, have you got that hardware I dropped off going? I still have yet to get you a list of questions. How's the new house working out?? Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Wed Aug 16 21:44:11 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA08307; Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:44:11 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02336; Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:44:10 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA08243; Wed, 16 Aug 95 21:44:07 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw2.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA03607; Wed, 16 Aug 95 22:28:48 EDT Message-Id: <9508170228.AA03607@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 16 Aug 95 15:07:00 -0500 To: ig2.att.att.com.att.com!HP-Loveland-om10.om.hp.com!David_Hanes Original-To: att!ig2.att.att.com!HP-Loveland-om10.om.hp.com!David_Hanes Cc: cnma, phkahler@oakland.edu, rls@intgp1.att.com Subject: Re: Interested in being in on the Cinematronics email list? Status: O G'day folks, WOW! I was poking through my files and I came across an old piece of email from Mike Farren at Atari. Turns out that he was referring me to Larry Rosenthal, creator of Cinematronics/ Vectorbeam hardware. (Unfortunately Mike never mentioned Larry's name in the email, so my later searches using Larry's name never produced that email.) Anywho, I call the number, and guess who's on the other side of the phone! Larry Rosenthal!! Being quite busy, he couldn't spend much time talking (besides I didn't exactly have alot of questions for him since I didn't expect to be successful). But he did seem to enjoy talking about the old days at Vectorbeam!! Since it was my first conversation with him, I didn't discuss the posibility of a conference call with all of you on the line. I'll broach the topic next time I talk with Larry. Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com ps - A bit of history for you guys. Larry sold Vectorbeam to Cinematronics, but the circumstances were odd. Vectorbeam had tons of debt and the patents. So essentially Larry gave them everything (debt and patents) so he could walk away from it all. From cnma Thu Aug 17 16:02:31 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA10927; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:02:31 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA15865; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:02:29 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA10864; Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:02:17 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id RAA13652 for cnma@nero.mayo.edu; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:02:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199508172102.RAA13652@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Interested in being in on the Cinematronics email list? To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:02:06 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 518 I was wondering... What is this subject line all about? I figured someone (probably Steve O.) must have posted an invite to RGVACbut I looked there and couldn't find it. The only thing I saw was Re:...... but where was the original message? Or do I suffer from a slow news feed? -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Fri Aug 18 19:13:50 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA14410; Fri, 18 Aug 95 19:13:50 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03374; Fri, 18 Aug 95 19:13:49 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA14346; Fri, 18 Aug 95 19:13:39 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from gw2.att.com by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from ig1.att.att.com by ig2.att.att.com id AA21491; Fri, 18 Aug 95 20:14:25 EDT Received: from intgp1.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA21514; Fri, 18 Aug 95 20:12:55 EDT Message-Id: <9508190012.AA21514@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 18 Aug 95 09:27:00 -0500 To: cnma@ig2.att.att.com (Cinematronics Hacker List) Original-To: att!ig2.att.att.com!nero.mayo.edu!cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Subject: Re: Interested in being in on the Cinematronics email list? G'day all, I think I sent the original email "Interested in being in on the Cinematronics email list?" to David Hanes about three months ago! These subject lines just keep hanging around in my email queues, eh? Steve Ozdemir ofoz@intgp1.att.com From cnma Fri Aug 25 11:01:44 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA02230; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:44 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29330; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:43 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA02165; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:30 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from claudius.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA29321; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:27 CDT Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA02927; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:25 -0500 Message-Id: <9508251601.AA02927@claudius.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:01:23 -0500 To: cnma Subject: space wars! Organization: Mayo Foundation Well folks, managed to find 3 space wars set (rev B boards) and the only one I tested worked fine in my star castle cabinet. Of course, the controls were a bit problematic ;-) Someone have the pinouts for the interface board for space war? I'll add them to the control panel matrix, and test wire it to make sure it works ;-) Also have a couple star castles. and various armor attack and star castle sound boards in various states of repair in case folks are looking for stuff... Ray From cnma Fri Aug 25 12:59:51 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA02919; Fri, 25 Aug 95 12:59:51 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02133; Fri, 25 Aug 95 12:59:42 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA02855; Fri, 25 Aug 95 12:58:46 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id NAA25558 for cnma@nero.mayo.edu; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 13:58:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199508251758.NAA25558@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: space wars! To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 13:58:31 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 812 > Also have a couple star castles. and various armor attack and star castle > sound boards in various states of repair in case folks are looking for > stuff... Ray, I'm interested in getting some sound boards. I know I want Star Castle and Tail Gunner, possibly some others (I think AA but I'll check). Everyone, I think I may have some bad rom images, so I'd like new ones for: Space Wars Warriors Star Hawk Preferably images that someone has actually made good roms from not just images taken from good roms :-) Anyone wanna help me out here? -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From cnma Mon Aug 28 10:20:52 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA07306; Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:52 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA25884; Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:51 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA07241; Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:35 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: from claudius.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA25874; Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:31 CDT Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67e/rome1.0) id AA03783; Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:31 -0500 Message-Id: <9508281520.AA03783@claudius.mayo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:20:30 -0500 To: cnma Subject: Re: space wars! References: <199508251758.NAA25558@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation > I'm interested in getting some sound boards. I know I > want Star Castle and Tail Gunner, possibly some others > (I think AA but I'll check). No Tail Gunner, but I have a couple Star Castles in various states of disrepair. Let me know if you're interested in them... > I think I may have some bad rom images, so I'd like > new ones for: > > Space Wars Warriors Star Hawk I have the images from the old ROM archive. Unfortunately, all my Space Wars have the ROMs soldered to the board, making read them in and reburning test roms less than convenient... Let me know if you want the images I have and I'll send them out uuencoded/MIME Ray From cnma Mon Aug 28 11:21:06 1995 Received: from bru.mayo.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray id AA07621; Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:21:06 -0500 Received: from nero.mayo.edu by bru.mayo.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA27089; Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:21:05 CDT Received: by nero.mayo.edu (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) for ray@mayo.edu id AA07558; Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:20:57 -0500 From: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by nero.mayo.edu via SMTP (940406.SGI/931108.SGI.AUTO.ANONFTP) Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id MAA01194 for cnma@nero.mayo.edu; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:20:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199508281620.MAA01194@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: space wars! To: cnma (Cinematronics Hacker List) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:20:45 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1020 I'm not sure the images from the archive are any good. I had a bad set of Armor Attack images that I think came from there along with the other games I was looking for. I have images for all the games, but I'm not sure if they are any good and until I get some hardware up and running I have no way to tell for certain. Ray, can you send your personal address so the others on the list won't have to read this next part: > > I'm interested in getting some sound boards. I know I > > want Star Castle and Tail Gunner, possibly some others > > (I think AA but I'll check). > > No Tail Gunner, but I have a couple Star Castles in various states of > disrepair. Let me know if you're interested in them... Yep, I'd be interested. You have any idea whats wrong with them? -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From ray@mayo.edu Mon Nov 4 10:42 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16955 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:42:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Mon, 4 Nov 96 10:42:53 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA17604 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:40:41 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Mon, 4 Nov 96 10:42:45 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16940 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:42:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA14894; Mon, 4 Nov 96 10:42:46 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611041642.KAA16940@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: <199611041637.KAA16592@fermat.mayo.edu> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Mon, 4 Nov 96 10:42:45 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Cinematronics hacking list is back! Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: <199611041637.KAA16592@fermat.mayo.edu> Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 1015 Hi Folks, Most of you probably have some distant memories of the mailing list I set up ~18 months ago to support discussions regarding hacking Cinematronics vector hardware. Alas, one dead server and new mail policies later, and the list was toast. Fortunately, Paul Wisneskey has been kind enough to volunteer magenta.com to host the list. The list is not a standard e-mail list server. The members of the list are maintained by hand by me. Currently, the following people are on the list: ray@mayo.edu kurt_mahan@novell.com dfish@bev.etn.com dfish@nyx.cs.du.edu ozdemir@cs.stanford.edu clay@supra.com phkahler@Oakland.edu pwwisnes@magenta.com If you would like to add someone, or be removed, please send e-mail to me. If anyone would like an archive of the messages that went out on the old list (some good stuff) let me know. When you reply to the list, please make sure that the message is also sent to vid-cnma@magenta.com if you would like your reply to go to the entire list. Ray From phkahler@Oakland.edu Mon Nov 4 18:25 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA02239 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 18:25:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Mon, 4 Nov 96 18:25:13 -0600 Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id TAA14472; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:27:26 -0500 From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199611050027.TAA14472@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Cinematronics hacking list is back! To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:27:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: vid-cnma@magenta.com In-Reply-To: <199611041642.KAA16940@fermat.mayo.edu> from "Ray Ghanbari" at Nov 4, 96 10:42:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 613 Hi All, I think we're missing someone. John Keay. Does anyone have his email address? I had discussed some of my hack ideas with him before but it never went anywhere. BTW Ray, can you forward some of our recent email to the group so they can see what we're up to? Not too much, just the important stuff :-) My mailbox just flooded with a bunch of WLMS hack messages :-) -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From dfish@bev.etn.com Tue Nov 5 15:36 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA29671 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:36:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from firewall.etn.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 5 Nov 96 15:36:37 -0600 Received: from ([151.110.102.224]) by firewall.etn.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA041529794; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:36:34 -0500 Received: from by (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB22175; Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:35:45 EST Received: by sentry.bev.etn.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BBCA47.53412E50@sentry.bev.etn.com>; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:57:17 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Fish, David" To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Subject: RE: Cinematronics hacking list is back! Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:54:11 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 411 Hi Ray, > >ray@mayo.edu >kurt_mahan@novell.com >dfish@bev.etn.com >dfish@nyx.cs.du.edu You can remove the above address (dfish@nyx.cs.du.edu) from the list. I do all my posts and send/recieve e-mail from my BEV account. >ozdemir@cs.stanford.edu >clay@supra.com >phkahler@Oakland.edu >pwwisnes@magenta.com > I wondered what had happened to the hacking list. I think it's great that it's back. Thanks. Dave From ray@mayo.edu Tue Nov 5 16:43 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA01823 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:43:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:42:57 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id RAA03622 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:40:26 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:42:30 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA01806 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:42:29 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA15877; Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:42:26 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611052242.QAA01806@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:42:24 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Kick off questions Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 1072 Some kick off questions for the Cinematronics list: (First of all, welcome to John Keay, who was volunteered for the list by Paul Kahler) For folks that have cinematronics monitors with the variable intensity board installed (Solar Quest, etc.) what happens when you try to run regular cnma vector games with the monitor? How about the converse? (ie, Solar Quest with a Star Castle setup?) Does anyone have schematics for the Boxing Bugs color translator board? Answers will help with the following goal: Fabricate a generic PCB that can take input from any cinematronics vector PCB and output signals in a form suitable for Atari vector monitors. Question is whether the 64 level intensity board should be incorporated into the translator board reproductions. Given the success of the emulator effort, it is clear that most of the games can be run with a multi-game hack on AA/SQ hardware (ignoring sound). Having a translator board would open up these games to a lot of people who don't have access to a dedicated cinematronics cabinet. Ray From phkahler@Oakland.edu Tue Nov 5 20:52 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06476 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:52:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 5 Nov 96 20:52:10 -0600 Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id VAA02526; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:54:29 -0500 From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199611060254.VAA02526@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: Kick off questions To: clay@supra.com (Clay Cowgill) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:54:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." , vid-cnma@magenta.com In-Reply-To: from "Clay Cowgill" at Nov 5, 96 03:01:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 2473 > My first reaction would be to include the intensity feature in the form of > a DAC0800 (or 1408, or DAC08, or whatever you want to call it). Use a mux > to switch between either the top 6 most significant bits for intensity > based games, or the top lines tied together for "mono-intensity" games. Solar Quest is the only multi-intensity game, and in my conversation with Scott Boden (The games author) he said it was going to be a Color game but they changed it last minute. For all we know it's still set up for color! The interface to the multi-intensity and color interface boards are the same which supports the idea of color SQ. My first reaction then is to skip multi-intensity and go for color :-) There are no "mono- intensity" games, all the others use 1 bit for intensity, but I agree with the idea of using a mux to select what goes into the D/A. The question remains if the 6-bit color is treated a 3 2-bit values or something like Atari did with 3-bit color and 3-bit intensity. We need to look into that. > I'm thinking of the MAX503 (I think that's the one) for the D/A. 12 bit, > parallel load, +-10V output, +5 supply, and two free samples from Maxim > free for the asking... ;-) Neat, how do they get that range from a +5V supply? Ray and I have been talking about the differences between Cinematronics and Atari WRT the D/A. Atari feeds a pair of integraters with the output of the D/A while Cine uses it as a target position which they feed into a pair of RC circuits (to do a rapid move, R is switched out of the circuit). At that point, both systems have signals that are functionally the same: voltage corresponds to position. Atari then uses 4 multipliers to compensate for the non-linearity of the monitor, while Cinematronics uses some strange diode thing :-) The Boxing Bugs color interface also uses the multiplier chips common on Atari games. Short term I'd like to replicate the Cinematronics D/A circuit and feed the position signals into my Space Duel board before the multiply chips. Long term we should probably replicate the Color interface but with support for mono-games. Just my thoughts, I'd be happy with ANYTHING that gets Cinegames running in my house (other than the emulator). -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From dfish@bev.etn.com Wed Nov 6 08:43 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16348 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:43:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 08:43:41 -0600 Received: from etn.com (firewall.etn.com [151.110.127.15]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id JAA11358 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:40:51 -0500 Received: from ([151.110.102.224]) by firewall.etn.com with SMTP (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA197571374; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:42:54 -0500 Received: from by (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB09610; Wed, 6 Nov 96 09:42:08 EST Received: by sentry.bev.etn.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BBCBC7.62AB8940@sentry.bev.etn.com>; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:46:29 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Fish, David" To: Clay Cowgill , "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." , "vid-cnma@magenta.com" Subject: RE: Kick off questions Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:43:01 -0500 Return-Receipt-To: X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1092 > >I'm thinking of the MAX503 (I think that's the one) for the D/A. 12 bit, >parallel load, +-10V output, +5 supply, and two free samples from Maxim >free for the asking... ;-) Your probably thinking of the MAX502. It's a V out, 12-bit interface DAC needs an external reference (-10V). The supply is +/-12 to +/-15V. It's output can be +/-10V. The MAX503 is a 10-bit DAC with an 8-bit wide input (8+2) The supply is +5V only and the output can be 0 to 4.096V at most. FWIW, I have a design on paper (actually disk) that allows a Cine' logic board to interface to a G05-802. For the DAC I used the Analog Devices AD667 since I had some available and basically ripped the rest of the Cine' design. It sounds, however that you guys are way beyond me with the color/multi-level intensity control. Dave Fish | "We want...Information. INFORMATION Melrose, MA USA | You won't get it! dfish@bev.etn.com (work) | By hook or by crook we will" dfish@nyx.cs.du.edu (/work) | _The Prisoner_ > From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 10:55 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA21256 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:55:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 10:55:40 -0600 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id LAA12452 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:53:29 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQborj25984; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id IAA23744 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:52:07 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma023723; Wed Nov 6 08:51:50 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa00951; 6 Nov 96 8:51 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:56:32 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2736 At 9:54 PM 11/5/96, Paul Kahler wrote: >My first reaction then >is to skip multi-intensity and go for color :-) There are no "mono- >intensity" games, all the others use 1 bit for intensity, but I agree >with the idea of using a mux to select what goes into the D/A. If you get to call multibit intensity "multi-intensity" I get to call single-bit "mono-intensity"... ;-) >The >question remains if the 6-bit color is treated a 3 2-bit values or something >like Atari did with 3-bit color and 3-bit intensity. We need to look >into that. Hmmmm. Good point. Anyone know for sure? >> I'm thinking of the MAX503 (I think that's the one) for the D/A. 12 bit, >> parallel load, +-10V output, +5 supply, and two free samples from Maxim >> free for the asking... ;-) > >Neat, how do they get that range from a +5V supply? Maxim builds a lot of charge-pump devices (like RS-232 chips that generate +-12V from a 5V supply) so I'm pretty sure that's built into the 503... Even if it isn't though I'm sure we've got >+-10V on the boards somewhere, but it'd be nice to not have regulators... That and the 503 has parallel load, full 12 bit datapath which is getting harder to find now-a-days... >Ray and I have been talking about the differences between Cinematronics >and Atari WRT the D/A. Atari feeds a pair of integraters with the output >of the D/A while Cine uses it as a target position which they feed into >a pair of RC circuits (to do a rapid move, R is switched out of the >circuit). At that point, both systems have signals that are functionally >the same: voltage corresponds to position. Atari then uses 4 multipliers >to compensate for the non-linearity of the monitor, while Cinematronics >uses some strange diode thing :-) The Boxing Bugs color interface also >uses the multiplier chips common on Atari games. Hmmmm... Motorola is still making the MC1495's, but I think they're only available in SOP surface mount packages... On the other hand, they're also free to sample if you ask nice and have an official sounding company-name. :-) > Short term I'd like to replicate the Cinematronics D/A circuit and >feed the position signals into my Space Duel board before the multiply >chips. Long term we should probably replicate the Color interface but >with support for mono-games. If you could refresh my memory... Did Atari use the multipliers for the BIP control? Size was just a matter of gain in the op-amps, no? -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 11:15 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22073 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:15:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:15:24 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA12678 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:13:07 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:12:11 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA21939; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:12:11 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00371; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:12:12 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611061712.LAA21939@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:12:11 -0600 To: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Cc: vid-cnma@magenta.com Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 1663 You wrote: > If you could refresh my memory... Did Atari use the multipliers for the > BIP control? Size was just a matter of gain in the op-amps, no? >From my Space Duel docs (which I conveniently have at work ;-) here is what I see: A couple transistors are used to generate a DAC reference voltage and are tied to the BIP pots. The output of the BIP pots is tied to the IO output of the 6012 DACs on ach axis The analog signal then goes through a couple op amps with the video invert circuitry and !CENTER bypass (equivalent of the 13331 in the cinematronics circuit, I assume) The X output then splits, with one leg going to a 1495 that an XCOR signal to the Y axis 1495, and the other leg going to the X axis 1495. The equivalent happens on the Y circuit, so a YCOR signal comes into the X 1495 as well. The XSIZE pot feeds into the X axis 1495, The XCENTER pot sits on the output of the 1495 (adjusts DC bias level), which is also tied to the next op amp in the chain, which feed the XLIN pot, which then feeds the output buffer. My read is that the BIP pots help set the bias in the linear range. It seems that a correction multiplier needs to be applied to each axis, depending on where the other axis is, which is why the correction signals are fed into the multipliers for each axis. If folks don't have this schematic, e-mail me a FAX number and I can send it out. Since people have mentioned that the Boxing Bugs translator board also has a couple 1495s, I think it is safe to assume that the WG monitors need a correction multiplier to compenate for non-orthogonalities between the signals to the axes? Ray From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 11:19 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22211 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:19:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:19:04 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA12709 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:16:47 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:18:50 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22170; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:18:50 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00380; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:18:51 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611061718.LAA22170@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:18:50 -0600 To: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Cc: vid-cnma@magenta.com Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 583 I should note that in checking my Major Havoc schematics (which I also have at work ;-) the circuit has no multipliers. Op amps are used to do all the scaling, and there is not correction signal passing between the different axes. Perhaps the Ampliphone monitor had better orthogonality and didn't need the correction circuit? People have complained about Star Wars/MH/Quantum not looking quite right on WG because they tend to bow, although the effect has never been that pronounced on the WG in my Tempest. Might be an interesting question for Greg Woodcock Ray From pwwisnes@magenta.com Wed Nov 6 11:22 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22348 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:22:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:22:42 -0600 Received: (pwwisnes@localhost) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) id MAA12740; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:20:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:20:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Paul W. Wisneskey" To: Ray Ghanbari cc: Clay Cowgill , vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Re: Kick off questions In-Reply-To: <199611061718.LAA22170@fermat.mayo.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 876 > People have complained about Star Wars/MH/Quantum not looking quite right on > WG because they tend to bow, although the effect has never been that > pronounced on the WG in my Tempest. I had a pronounced bow from Major Havoc due to non-linearing scaling on my WG until I got an "official" Major Havoc to Tempest wiring adaptor board. That board contains a fair amount of circuitry which I believe does correct for this, particularly since people running Major Havoc in a Tempest cabinet tend to crank up the vertical size to compensate for the different monitor orientation. Paul -----------------------+---------------------------------------------------- Paul Wisneskey | Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. pwwisnes@magenta.com +---------------------------------------------------- DoD #6294, AMA #345272 | http://magenta.com/~pwwisnes/ From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 11:29 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22638 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:29:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:29:06 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA12780 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:26:54 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:27:39 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA22537 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:27:38 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00388; Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:27:39 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611061727.LAA22537@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 11:27:38 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Re: Kick off questions Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 870 You wrote: > I had a pronounced bow from Major Havoc due to non-linearing scaling on > my WG until I got an "official" Major Havoc to Tempest wiring adaptor board. > That board contains a fair amount of circuitry which I believe does correct > for this, particularly since people running Major Havoc in a Tempest cabinet > tend to crank up the vertical size to compensate for the different monitor > orientation. That explains it, I have an official adapter for my MH in my Tempest (always wondered what all the circuitry was for ;-) Of course, I haven't noticed that big a bow with my Quantum in my Tempest, but I was just happy to get the damn thing working and be able to play ;-) Regardless, this bow is obviously an issue for a lot of people, so it might be wise to keep the multipliers and the correction circuitry in any type of translator PCB. Ray From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 12:10 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24285 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:10:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:10:28 -0600 Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA13262 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:08:15 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQboro06897; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id KAA26821 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:06:26 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma026809; Wed Nov 6 10:06:18 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa02755; 6 Nov 96 10:06 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:11:00 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: RE: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1420 At 9:43 AM 11/6/96, Fish, David wrote: >Your probably thinking of the MAX502. It's a V out, 12-bit interface DAC >needs an external reference (-10V). The supply is +/-12 to +/-15V. It's >output can be +/-10V. Yeah, I'm getting myself confused now. :-/ (I do that sometimes.) The Maxim reps were out here a couple weeks ago and I think I cross-multiplied features from something they were talking about doing with the one that was alrady out... Anyway, I'm a little concerned about the 502 now since it doesn't seem to be in any of the databooks and the datasheet isn't available on their web-page. Wonder if it's obsoleted? >FWIW, I have a design on paper (actually disk) that allows a Cine' >logic board to interface to a G05-802. For the DAC I used the Analog >Devices AD667 since I had some available and basically ripped >the rest of the Cine' design. The 667 would be a good choice too. (I just went with the Maxim since they were good with the free samples and we buy >1million RS232 transcievers per year from them... ;-) The 667 is Voltage output too, so that works for me. I'd like to see your design... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 12:34 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24962 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:34:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:34:36 -0600 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA13479 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:32:22 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQborq18940; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id KAA00118 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:32:33 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id smaa00107; Wed Nov 6 10:32:15 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa03293; 6 Nov 96 10:31 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:36:21 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1089 At 11:27 AM 11/6/96, Ray Ghanbari wrote: >That explains it, I have an official adapter for my MH in my Tempest (always >wondered what all the circuitry was for ;-) Of course, I haven't noticed >that >big a bow with my Quantum in my Tempest, but I was just happy to get the damn >thing working and be able to play ;-) > >Regardless, this bow is obviously an issue for a lot of people, so it might >be wise to keep the multipliers and the correction circuitry in any type of >translator PCB. Any chance you could copy down the schematic for that adapter board? :-) Something like that would be useful in its own right... Even if we do include it on the Cinemat hack, maybe I should make some of the boards stand-alone for people (like me) with WG's in Star Wars that need "bow correction". -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 12:38 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA25031 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:38:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:38:15 -0600 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA13508 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:36:04 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQborq29735; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id KAA27740 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:27:58 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma027732; Wed Nov 6 10:27:52 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa03231; 6 Nov 96 10:27 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:32:34 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1091 Ray writes: >People have complained about Star Wars/MH/Quantum not looking quite right on >WG because they tend to bow, although the effect has never been that >pronounced on the WG in my Tempest. This is interesting-- and kinda reminds me of something from working on Star Wars last night... My Star Wars board was hooked up to my WG and definately exhibited some bowing inward-- like a pincushion adjustment was missing. Everything else looked fine though, and when viewed on my scope in X-Y mode everything was nice and linear looking... So this would tend to suggest that the Star Wars output stages are fairly linear too? The other interesting thing to try will be to hook up a Tempest or Space Duel that's properly adjusted for a WG and see if it *doesn't* look right on a scope... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From pwwisnes@magenta.com Wed Nov 6 12:57 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA25580 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:57:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:56:57 -0600 Received: (pwwisnes@localhost) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) id NAA13668; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:54:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:54:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Paul W. Wisneskey" To: Ray Ghanbari cc: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Re: Kick off questions In-Reply-To: <199611061727.LAA22537@fermat.mayo.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 786 > That explains it, I have an official adapter for my MH in my Tempest (always > wondered what all the circuitry was for ;-) Of course, I haven't noticed that > big a bow with my Quantum in my Tempest, but I was just happy to get the damn > thing working and be able to play ;-) The bow tends to vary. I have a WG in my dedicated Quantum and I there is no perceivable bow. Ditto for my Star Wars. I think the bow originates from the game board's XY circuitry and not the monitors.... Paul -----------------------+---------------------------------------------------- Paul Wisneskey | Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. pwwisnes@magenta.com +---------------------------------------------------- DoD #6294, AMA #345272 | http://magenta.com/~pwwisnes/ From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 13:32 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA26960 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:32:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 13:32:54 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA13983 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:30:34 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 13:32:35 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA26947 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:32:35 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00439; Wed, 6 Nov 96 13:32:35 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611061932.NAA26947@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 13:32:34 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Re: Kick off questions Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 1289 You wrote: > This is interesting-- and kinda reminds me of something from working on > Star Wars last night... My Star Wars board was hooked up to my WG and > definately exhibited some bowing inward-- like a pincushion adjustment was > missing. Everything else looked fine though, and when viewed on my scope > in X-Y mode everything was nice and linear looking... So this would tend > to suggest that the Star Wars output stages are fairly linear too? OK, for completeness I checked the Tempest schematics (which I also have at work ;-) Tempest has basically the same correction circuit and multipliers as Space Duel. If I recall, Gravitar/BW are the same (it's been a while since I've done hard core debugging of Gravitars) Given the data we have, I think it is safe to extrapolate and say that games designed for the WG have a correction circuit using multipliers, and games designed for the Ampliphone (MH, Quantum, SW, ESB) do not (Star Wars included, although I don't have those docs at work ;-) My working assumption is that this correction circuit will be useful for the hack. As for schematics for the adapter board, I have never seen such a beast. If you want to borrow a Gravitar/SD -> MH converter board and trace circuits (ick), let me know. Ray From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 13:55 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA27754 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:55:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 13:55:34 -0600 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA14137 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:53:21 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQborv05378; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id LAA04226 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:55:17 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma004196; Wed Nov 6 11:54:50 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa05068; 6 Nov 96 11:54 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:59:32 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 727 >As for schematics for the adapter board, I have never seen such a beast. If >you want to borrow a Gravitar/SD -> MH converter board and trace circuits >(ick), let me know. Someone should do this. I'll volunteer. :-) If you don't want to part with the PCB, a clean photo-copy of both sides might be enough. (depending on how icky the trace routing is. :-) Maybe I should have tried to buy that one in auction after-all... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 14:13 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA28384 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:13:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 14:13:13 -0600 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQborw11744; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:13:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id MAA05066 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:11:46 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma005036; Wed Nov 6 12:11:22 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa05548; 6 Nov 96 12:11 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:16:04 -0800 To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." , Clay Cowgill From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1214 >I was tempted to sell mine at $90 ;-) However, my manager instincts are >telling me that it is a mistake to let Clay take on another project ;-) > >I'm happy to send it out Clay, if it helps. I'll toss in some MCR sets and >Food Fights to make it worthwhile to ship ;-) *laugh* Yeah, over-extending myself is another pet hobby of mine... ;-) (But I just got off the phone with our OKI Semiconductor rep and I think they have a playback only version of the ADPCM chip that's a couple generations newer than the one Nightmare uses... Eval boards are on the way! *grin*. :-) I have now made a vow to pack up a box of stuff for you at lunch. :-) I'm going to send you: 44pin card edge connectors Whatever B/W boards I can find (with or without PONG although I know I have one I haven't found it in a while...) Tiger Heli with a little title screen glitch An NTSC->RGB conversion board with GO-7 documentation -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 14:22 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA28701 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:22:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 14:22:01 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA28698; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:22:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00514; Wed, 6 Nov 96 14:22:01 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611062022.OAA28698@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 14:22:00 -0600 To: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Cc: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 1550 You wrote: > *laugh* Yeah, over-extending myself is another pet hobby of mine... ;-) > (But I just got off the phone with our OKI Semiconductor rep and I think > they have a playback only version of the ADPCM chip that's a couple > generations newer than the one Nightmare uses... Eval boards are on the > way! *grin*. :-) ;-) I just know better than to let the talent burn out. Currently you have the following on your plate (that I know of;-) ESB hack (heavy logistics/time) MCR hack MCR control hack Nightmare hack board interconnect hack MH adapter hack cnma adapter hack (I'd lump multigame into this as well to save PCB fab costs) wlms multigame hack wlms control hack Hmm, and we aren't even touching the vectrex/5200/whatever stuff ;-) At the very minimum, I suggest farming out production/testing/etc. to other folks (I'm happy to help) and focus on the hardcore digital design and prototyping > I have now made a vow to pack up a box of stuff for you at lunch. :-) I'm > going to send you: > > 44pin card edge connectors > Whatever B/W boards I can find (with or without PONG although I know I have > one I haven't found it in a while...) > Tiger Heli with a little title screen glitch > An NTSC->RGB conversion board with GO-7 documentation Clay, don't to worry about it. Wait until the ESB stuff and the Spy Hunter stuff is done. It's not like I'm going to get to these things anytime soon ;-) Ray From pwwisnes@magenta.com Wed Nov 6 15:34 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA01193 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:34:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 15:34:10 -0600 Received: (pwwisnes@localhost) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) id QAA14865; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:31:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:31:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Paul W. Wisneskey" To: Clay Cowgill cc: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Re: Kick off questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 633 > Someone should do this. I'll volunteer. :-) If you don't want to part > with the PCB, a clean photo-copy of both sides might be enough. (depending > on how icky the trace routing is. :-) I think I may have schematics for an Major Havoc<->Tempest adaptor. No promises but it rings a bell... :-) I'll check when I make it home tonight. Paul -----------------------+---------------------------------------------------- Paul Wisneskey | Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. pwwisnes@magenta.com +---------------------------------------------------- DoD #6294, AMA #345272 | http://magenta.com/~pwwisnes/ From clay@supra.com Wed Nov 6 16:36 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA03289 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:36:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 16:36:02 -0600 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQbosg13221; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id OAA00917 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:35:51 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma000905; Wed Nov 6 14:35:27 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa09291; 6 Nov 96 14:35 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:40:10 -0800 To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 3418 > >ESB hack (heavy logistics/time) ...but mostly out the door... >MCR hack >MCR control hack ...in the "there's got to be a better way to do this" phase... >Nightmare hack ...Well, ok, this one's current, got me there... >board interconnect hack ...Ok, this one's kinda current too, but it's a no-brainer once I get started... >MH adapter hack ...Yeah... >cnma adapter hack (I'd lump multigame into this as well to save PCB fab costs) ...But there's help here!... >wlms multigame hack >wlms control hack ...ditto!... >At the very minimum, I suggest farming out production/testing/etc. to other >folks (I'm happy to help) and focus on the hardcore digital design and >prototyping I did decide to just send the ESB kits out as parts instead of assembled. Getting smarter in my old age. ;-) I think the SW/MH->WG board is a really good idea. Just be a matter of getting it produced cheap enough so people can buy it. It might be low volume though... [Nightmare] I think that Nightmare will end up being 1 PCB that plugs into the 68000 socket. If I can get the Nighmare data into a format that the OKI ADPCM chip likes that'll be cool. I'll put all the counters, decode, and spinner-knob circuitry into a Lattice PLD. There's a little analog in there too, but not much. Should make for a tidy board. Surface mount could be pretty cool 'cause it'd be so small, but I think I need to do through-hole to be practical. I'll probably just do a run of 25. The cost will be higher, but I doubt I'd be able to get rid of more than that... I'll let you in on the rest of my pet projects: 1) 68000 based Vector-game board. Output compatible with WG Vector monitors. Support for trackball(or spinner) and 16 buttons. Color. Modern parts. Full programming information. Small, cheap, comes with 1 game (less than $100 fully loaded). Hopefully other people will code for it! Comes with libraries, C compiler, etc. 2) Raster Monitor tester. Done, needs a PCB. Maybe revisit the code one more time... 3) Track-man. Single chip that when connected to joystick(s) emulates a trackball or spinner knob with both quadrature and dir/clk outputs. (For those people that really want multi-games without having a trackball/spinner control panel.) Also will take clk/dir input and output quadrature and vice-versa. (Just a "Small Matter Of Programming"... ;-) 4) Figure out this Fluke 9010A Unit Under Test microprocessor troubleshooter. 5) Figure out, collect, and assemble the parts for the Tek 1240 logic analyzer. 6) Vectrex clone PCB with built-in multicart and WG-output. (This was originally a function of #1, but they're a little too different to do properly...) That's the big ones. ;-) Finish "Moon Lander" etc... Now you should be *really* worried... I do actually get things completed from time-to-time though... *laugh* I still might send your box. Depends on if I find Pong tonight. If nothing else I really need the extra space in the garage. (I still have about 100 square feet of Atari stuff stacked chest-high from Travis and I buying all of Dave Wiebenson's old stuff...) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From ray@mayo.edu Wed Nov 6 17:12 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA04391 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:12:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Wed, 6 Nov 96 17:12:41 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA04387; Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:12:40 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00620; Wed, 6 Nov 96 17:12:41 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199611062312.RAA04387@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.2) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 17:12:40 -0600 To: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Cc: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." References: Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 4044 You wrote: > I did decide to just send the ESB kits out as parts instead of assembled. > Getting smarter in my old age. ;-) This is what I'm talking about. Do the design work, verify it works, and find an apprentice to pawn off the logistics on... Ditto for some of the design and verification if possible. Leverage, Clay, leverage. Even Yoda couldn't take on Darth Vader ;-) > [Nightmare] > I think that Nightmare will end up being 1 PCB that plugs into the 68000 > socket. If I can get the Nighmare data into a format that the OKI ADPCM > chip likes that'll be cool. I'll put all the counters, decode, and > spinner-knob circuitry into a Lattice PLD. There's a little analog in > there too, but not much. Should make for a tidy board. Surface mount > could be pretty cool 'cause it'd be so small, but I think I need to do > through-hole to be practical. I'll probably just do a run of 25. The cost > will be higher, but I doubt I'd be able to get rid of more than that... I think you're underestimating this one. EVERYONE will want the never released Atari game, esp. if game play is cool. Certainly everyone in VAPS with a Tron or DoT will want one, since they have the controls already > I'll let you in on the rest of my pet projects: Other project includes the multigame Midway hack (Sean is doing the leg work), the multigame Sega vector hack (the chips can be broken), the multigame System I hack, the combo Wizard of Wor/Gorf/Space Zap/Roby Roto hack, the combo Midway 8080 hack, the combo cinematronics sound board hack (ick, analog crap), the combo Zaxxon/Super Zaxxon/Congo Bongo/Future Spy hack, yada yada yada. This is why leverage is important ;-) > 1) > 68000 based Vector-game board. Output compatible with WG Vector monitors. > Support for trackball(or spinner) and 16 buttons. Color. Modern parts. > Full programming information. Small, cheap, comes with 1 game (less than > $100 fully loaded). Hopefully other people will code for it! Comes with > libraries, C compiler, etc. This sounds insanely cool! Programming the old hardware is a long term goal of mine. Might be cool to start with C instead of assembly ;-) Stick a 68040 on there so there is a hope of emulating the older games in software... > 2) > Raster Monitor tester. Done, needs a PCB. Maybe revisit the code one more > time... Yup, waiting for one ;-) Don't forget the CAT box work alike project. > 3) > Track-man. Single chip that when connected to joystick(s) emulates a > trackball or spinner knob with both quadrature and dir/clk outputs. (For > those people that really want multi-games without having a > trackball/spinner control panel.) Also will take clk/dir input and output > quadrature and vice-versa. (Just a "Small Matter Of Programming"... ;-) Part of MCR hack, yes? May as well lump in the Midway encoder logic, since these little boards are always missing > 4) > Figure out this Fluke 9010A Unit Under Test microprocessor troubleshooter. > > 5) > Figure out, collect, and assemble the parts for the Tek 1240 logic analyzer. > > 6) > Vectrex clone PCB with built-in multicart and WG-output. (This was > originally a function of #1, but they're a little too different to do > properly...) I was noodling about this this morning. I think #1 would be more cool ;-) > That's the big ones. ;-) Finish "Moon Lander" etc... How hard is vec hacking? I was thinking Omega Race might be cool (hell it may already exist) > Now you should be *really* worried... I do actually get things completed > from time-to-time though... *laugh* ;-) You can ask Rick about me and my projects ;-) > I still might send your box. Depends on if I find Pong tonight. If > nothing else I really need the extra space in the garage. (I still have > about 100 square feet of Atari stuff stacked chest-high from Travis and I > buying all of Dave Wiebenson's old stuff...) You call Clay. If you want to toss some of that Atari stuff in, the Ray mueseum is ready and waiting ;-) Ray From clay@supra.com Tue Nov 19 18:32 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA06509 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:32:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 19 Nov 96 18:32:36 -0600 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id TAA03686 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:30:18 -0500 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQbqoo23182; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id QAA25091 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:32:07 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma025078; Tue Nov 19 16:31:36 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa23813; 19 Nov 96 16:31 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:36:25 -0800 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Boxing Bugs -> WG convertor board... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1184 Hi Guys. Well, I got Bill La Couvara's Boxing Bugs boardset the other day and started looking over the Wells Gardner conversion board. Spooky. For those of you that haven't seen one, it's about 12"x12" square. I counted slightly over 270 components! Cursory inspection revealed the twin DAC-80's like we were expecting. The color system looks like it's an eight bit port. I haven't determined if certain lines are dedicated to certain colors or if it's a color selector with intensity or whatever. Cinematronics must have had some sort of vested interest in using as many LF351's as possible since there's about a dozen on the PCB... :-) There's some kinda bizarre stuff in there, and I'm working without any sort of schematics, so it'll probably be a while before I have it all mapped out, but I'll make it available as I go along. Back to your regularly scheduled e-mail... -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From clay@supra.com Tue Nov 5 16:56 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA02233 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:56:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET by mhro1.mayo.edu; Tue, 5 Nov 96 16:56:48 -0600 Received: from suprahwy.supra.com by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: suprahwy.supra.com [205.229.114.11]) id QQboop01901; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 17:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (smap@localhost) by suprahwy.supra.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id OAA03600; Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:56:44 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.10.0.22) by suprahwy via smap (V1.0mjr) id sma003583; Tue Nov 5 14:56:19 1996 Received: from v-wins-1-100.supra.com by v_mail.supra.com id aa21244; 5 Nov 96 14:56 PST X-Sender: clay@10.10.0.22 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:01:01 -0800 To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." , vid-cnma@magenta.com From: Clay Cowgill Subject: Re: Kick off questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1403 At 4:42 PM 11/5/96, Ray Ghanbari wrote: >Some kick off questions for the Cinematronics list: [...] >Does anyone have schematics for the Boxing Bugs color translator board? Bill La Couvara is sending me his Boxing Bugs boardset and the schematics sometime this week. I've already done the background work on the DAC-80's and I'll fax the schematics to whoever needs them... >Fabricate a generic PCB that can take input from any cinematronics vector PCB >and output signals in a form suitable for Atari vector monitors. Question is >whether the 64 level intensity board should be incorporated into the >translator board reproductions. My first reaction would be to include the intensity feature in the form of a DAC0800 (or 1408, or DAC08, or whatever you want to call it). Use a mux to switch between either the top 6 most significant bits for intensity based games, or the top lines tied together for "mono-intensity" games. I'm thinking of the MAX503 (I think that's the one) for the D/A. 12 bit, parallel load, +-10V output, +5 supply, and two free samples from Maxim free for the asking... ;-) -Clay Clayton N. Cowgill Engineering Manager _______________________________________________________________________ /\ Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc. clay@supra.com \/ Communications Division http://www.supra.com/ From ray@mayo.edu Sat Dec 21 11:59 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10216 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:59:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Sat, 21 Dec 96 11:59:52 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA02865 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:58:06 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Sat, 21 Dec 96 11:59:46 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10212 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:59:45 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA02045; Sat, 21 Dec 96 11:59:45 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199612211759.LAA10212@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 11:59:44 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: FYI: Off the net Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 845 In case anyone missed Bill's posting Ray From: bpaul@qualcomm.com (Bill Paul) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting Subject: New!! Cinematronics Home Page Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 00:57:09 GMT Organization: Qualcomm Inc. The unofficial Cinematronics Home Page is now on the web! The URL is http://home.concentric.net/~Zonn/ Amoung the many items it includes, you can find instructions for converting Star Castle into War of the Worlds (an ealry X-mas present). I am going out of town for a week, so excuse me if I don't respond to your mail. Have a Merry Christmas! -BP -------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Paul KF6BBL San Diego, CA bpaul@qualcomm.com Disclaimer: The above post is the opinion of Bill Paul, not Qualcomm Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------- From phkahler@Oakland.edu Sat Dec 21 13:47 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA11468 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 13:47:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from saturn.acs.oakland.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Sat, 21 Dec 96 13:47:07 -0600 Received: (from phkahler@localhost) by saturn.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.6.6) id OAA12735 for ray@mayo.edu; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:50:54 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kahler Message-Id: <199612211950.OAA12735@saturn.acs.oakland.edu> Subject: Re: FYI: Off the net To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:50:54 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612211759.LAA10212@fermat.mayo.edu> from "Ray Ghanbari" at Dec 21, 96 11:59:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 1409 > From: bpaul@qualcomm.com (Bill Paul) > Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting > Subject: New!! Cinematronics Home Page > Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 00:57:09 GMT > Organization: Qualcomm Inc. > > The unofficial Cinematronics Home Page is now on the web! The URL is > http://home.concentric.net/~Zonn/ > Amoung the many items it includes, you can find instructions for converting > Star Castle into War of the Worlds (an ealry X-mas present). Thanks for the pointer. His history is generally accurate, but from my conversations with Tim Skelly and Scott Boden I concluded that Larry Rosenthal got screwed bad in the deal and basically walked away with nothing, the programmers were called technicians and paid as such, and when they bought/sued Vectorbeam the owners of Cinematronics got the rights to the design in THEIR NAME NOT THE COMPANY so when things later went bad, the company folded while they continued to collect royaltys on the game! Bills history sounds like he got it from the other side. I have yet to actually talk to Larry about it, I contacted him once, but had heard that it was sort of a taboo subject with him so I didn't pursue it any further. -- ___ __ _ _ _ | \ / \ | | | || | phkahler@oakland.edu Engineer/Programmer | _/| || || |_| || |__ " What makes someone care so much? |_| |_||_| \___/ |____) for things another man can just ignore. " -S.H. From ozdemir@cs.stanford.edu Mon Dec 23 10:54 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16150 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:54:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from Xenon.Stanford.EDU by mhro1.mayo.edu; Mon, 23 Dec 96 10:54:26 -0600 Received: (from ozdemir@localhost) by Xenon.Stanford.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA14466 for ray@mayo.edu; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:55:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:55:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven S. Ozdemir" Message-Id: <199612231655.IAA14466@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Subject: Re: FYI: Off the net Content-Type: text Content-Length: 281 G'day Ray, Thanks for forwarding Bill's post...looks like Zonn is an honorable man! He bought the War of the Worlds from Gaymond and then took all the data public!! Have a merry Xmas!!! Steven S Ozdemir sso@dsc.com ozdemir@xenon.stanford.edu (only after the above bounces) From ray@mayo.edu Fri Dec 27 09:44 CST 1996 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1 [129.176.100.75]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11432 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:44:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from links.magenta.com by mhro1.mayo.edu; Fri, 27 Dec 96 09:44:05 -0600 Received: from mhro1.mayo.edu (mhro1.mayo.edu [129.176.100.75]) by magenta.com (8.6.12/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA09003 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:42:15 -0500 Received: from fermat.mayo.edu by mhro1.mayo.edu; Fri, 27 Dec 96 09:43:49 -0600 Received: from claudius.mayo.edu (claudius [129.176.212.130]) by fermat.mayo.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11427 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:43:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by claudius.mayo.edu (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA00573; Fri, 27 Dec 96 09:43:50 -0600 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) Message-Id: <199612271543.JAA11427@fermat.mayo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Ray Ghanbari Date: Fri, 27 Dec 96 09:43:49 -0600 To: vid-cnma@magenta.com Subject: Another Cinematronics home page Reply-To: "Ghanbari, Ray A., Ph.D." Organization: Mayo Foundation Content-Type: text/plain Content-Length: 253 Looks like our friend Sean Riddle is at it again: http://www.ionet.net/~sriddle/cinematronics.html Sean has been added to this mailing list, and I forwarded him the list archives so he can catch up with our discussions. Ho Ho Ho! everyone... Ray